Shocking Cars: Newsletter Challenge (04/17/07)

Sweaty? I don't think so... what else do you have?

Sorry for the jokey way of putting it labguy. What I was trying to get at was that all individuals have a different electrical conductivity and capacity to store charge . no offence was intended , but you can test this with a basic multimeter . My 'humour ' does not always translate well. It was just an attempt to explain the situation you described . If you individually notice more of a shock , my conclusion is that there must be some factor particular to yourself . That could include a multitude of things; BMI, clothing , seating position ,driving speed .... the list goes on.

Of course , your comment may be pulling my chain , in which case I'll give you a blunt response in a less viewed thread. Peace -out . Ps - if someone suggested I sweated like a pig I'd say ' How do you know ? '

If they suggested you sweat like a pig,maybe it was due to your dry clothing. Pigs don't sweat.

Yes sweaty hands are far more conductive than dry or calloused hands.

Might the ATM be 'double insulated' electrical equipment?

Hmm. Just by-the -by , The current fashion for withdrawing cash from ATM's down in Kent is to borrow a fork-lift and low loader beforehand . That's one way of getting revenge when it says 'out of notes'. It also saves worrying about the possibility of a Lebanese loop .

...Lebanese loop...

Would you elaborate? Wiktionary says: "?"

One of many devices to scam you involving covert modification to ATM's . Without you knowing , your card data is read . Some go the whole hog and capture the entire physical card.

You'd have to register the password as well won't you?

Man, I thought of something way ahead, mentioning " Lebanese Loop", then I was noticed of a new "unread mail", and my imagination went wild.

Wow!

You'd have to register the password as well won't you?

No problem to the watchful/light fingered etc . Just how careful is the average person with a PIN . How many people use first 2 digits 19 etc etc etc

"You'd have to register the password as well won't you?"

Indeed, but if you're using an ATM, you would expect to enter your password as well? All that is needed is a well-placed camera.

BTW, the approach doesn't work fully with all card designs, but the UK banks (by no means uniquely) thought they could save some money...

These are quite handy too.

...quite handy too...

As opposed to Trinitrotoluene?

You might consider the shoes you and your wife wear, and the carpeting in the vehicles you drive. You may be generating static electricity by the movement of your shoes on the carpeting. When you get out of the car you discharge yourself --perhaps on the metal car shell or on a something nearby that is grounded.

Some carpeting/shoe combinations are more susceptible to generating static electricity than other kinds. Some carpeting has fine conductive wire woven into it to allow it to be anti-static (although I don't know if this kind of carpeting is used in cars or trucks).

If the air is dry this effect is more pronounced, but I experienced this once in Florida in the summertime when it was extremely humid.

Labguy, I frequently have the exact me experience. When driving my '94 Chevy Corsica or my wife's '96 Ford Ranger there is no problem, but when driving my '02 Dodge Ram 3500 I get zapped almost every time I step out and reach to shut the door. My wife can be riding with or driving and she has never once been zapped. At first she didn't believe me when I told her I always got shocks from our truck. Then recently our outdoor light was not working when I got home she came out to help me carry some things in. When I reached to close my door she saw the small blue arc.

One thing that I have noticed is that if I just sit in my truck without driving (under rain delay at the race track, or eating lunch while helping a friend build a cabin) I don't receive a shock. If I drive (even only a short distance) I will almost certainly receive one. This leads me to believe the static may be coming from tires or perhaps the serpentine belt.

I have pondered this a lot for the past couple of years and have not come to any firm conclusions.

I think you and labguy have hit on a really interesting aspect of the question. There has to be some reason why guy's are more prone to getting zapped. I hope somebody contributing (or the answer) can shed some light on this - it has be more than coincidence. I can't think of a good answer , but I'd like to hear some thoughts on it . Just go's to show how seemingly straight forward questions can lead to other things.

My wife is just as prone to getting shocked as me. I'm ~200lb, she's ~120lb.

Could it be that many of you guys wear shoes with insulating soles, but your wives wear high heels?

How about the ladies wear their guy's clothing (if it'll fit well enough), including shoes, and get in and out of the car to see if a charge is produced. It may be due to differences in fabric. If the girls still don't generate a charge, it may be due to subtle differences in how the two genders get in and out of the car.

And if Mr. and Ms. differ considerably in size, it might also be pretty funny to watch.

I have the same problem. In little vehicles no shock, but in my 00 Tahoe and others' pickups, there is a shock. Someone told me to hold the door when I get out to stay grounded and shut the door before letting go. This worked without shock. You get shocked when you go back to shut the door after losing contact with the vehicle. My guess is that your wife stays in contact with the vehicle due to leverage purpose, thus not getting shocked.

I too am frequently zapped getting out of my 2002 Blazer. I find that if I hang on to the door frame while I slide out of the seat, that I do not get zapped.

some body

then it must be foulty wire that connect the alarm and bepping of the seat belt probably it may not be grounded properly and the driver collect the static and transfer to the cooper collected in the told collecting box perfect conductor.

I think you need a spell checker

There can be lots of contributing factors to the generation of static electricity, including weather, clothing, fabrics for seats and flooring. I can, however, offer a tip to take the sting out of the shock: grasp the metal part of the key and touch the door with it. You may see or hear the zap, but you won't feel it.

Cheers!

You can painlessly discharge any built-up static by holding something metal (key, for example) in your hand and then touching the metal object to your car, desk, door, etc. As long as your body is in contact with the intermediate metal object BEFORE you touch it to something else metal, you won't feel the shock of the static discharge.

I have had similar experiences with Ford vehicles. I have driven a lot of different cars over the years both owned, rented, and borrowed, and no other brands tend to shock me at the rate the Ford's do.......

Al

Hi, it seems You have an ongoing relationship with static events? most folks very rarely get any zaps. I hold to my idea that 90% is because of the person's Skin conditions, and its ability to hold/gather a charge. i made this inquiry long ago, to find why certain people Always Slay healthy machinery ...like magic.. ummm static..My lady Friend always says Her skin is too dry & She is a moderate Device slayer...if its a delicate device i keep i away from her use.. & buy Her one of Her own, under a good warrantee (esp cell phones) J Bo

It's bizarre - I'm also a device slayer - but only if the device belongs to someone else! Mine stuff always survives!

Arc-ing the cat has always been an amusing passtime....

On a particularly dry day some years ago I amused myself in this way. Binky, my otherwise ultramellow tabby, finally had enough of this nonsense and quietly pissed in my sock drawer. He knew how to open drawers.

I like the new avatar e . Are you sure it was Binky

It is entirely possible it wasn't Binky at all. And it couldn't have been Shelf-Life and Velcro, my other two cats, cuz they were too friggin' fat and lazy. I've been known to pour my hot tea water into the sugar bowl just after waking up...er...getting out of bed. A couple of weeks ago I went to wash my breakfast plate and poured coffee creamer into the dishwater instead of soap. And I've done worse things in my morning fog, but I'm not going there! I'm a total zombie in the morning. Even though I sleep well at night, I toss and turn all morning and well into the afternoon. I don't get it.

I think I need a personal live-in analog assistant.

"Analog"??
Do you mean "something similar to an assistant", "existing in continuous space-time", or "continuously present and available". (I could do with the last myself).

BTW, as we are already way off thread: re "manipulating light using Europium". Do you use the Europium in inorganic crystalline matrices, is your interest its use in Organic LEDs, or is it something else entirely?

Fyz

Thermoluminescence, mainly, and laser materials.

Thanks.

I thought of thermoluminescence as a research tool, rather than as "engineering physics". Does this mean you are another interloper on this nominally engineering site, or am I missing something?

Fyz

You could try upgrading to the Lincoln

Every car produced since the early 80's has ground straps that ground the engine block to the frame. In your case, the cars straps may be broken, or may have been inadvertently removed when the engine of that "used" car was replaced when the previous owner went into the lake with the car and blew the engine. You should have run a carfax report first.

Cars ground strap is what completes the circuit, without it, nothing works, not even the radio. It it's loose, the car won't start.

Been there, had it happen, got the tee shirt

Dear G302, pray tell, how Car electrics worked on pre-80's models and how any Car works with the engine insulated from the "frame" (I guess you mean body / chassis). Naturally I am refering to electrically started engines.

"Teach a wise man and he will be yet wiser"

If you are wearing anything made from silk or synthetics you'll generate a noticible static charge if the humidity is less than 45%. Those of us who have lived and worked in the deserts of the world know about static electricity and its startling effects. Dry desert winds can charge most any item which is somewhat insulated electrically from the ground. I learned early on to approach my parked car with something conductive (such as a key) in my hand to use as a first contact point letting the arc discharge through the conductive item rather than painfully from my finger tips. Dogs and cats wanted attention but would shy away from being petted because of painful shocks. We would run the evaporative cooler to add the humidity removed by the air conditioning. It is possible to feel cold in a heated room because of low humidity. The moisture evaporating from the skin causes the skin to rapidly cool below the comfort level. In the winter my kids would turn the heat up to the maximum and shiver in the near zero humidity. I would come home and put a pan of water on the stove. Soon they would be complaining "its hot, turn down the heat." I tried to get them to understand about humidity but as any father knows, education is often more effective if it comes from someone other than dad. Be careful when fueling your car. Most gas stations in low humidity areas have warning signs posted on the pumps that caution you to not re enter your car while filling as this will generate static charges which could ignite the fuel vapors as you exit and return to remove the hose nozzle. According to my old ESD manual, most people's perception of static charge potentiation is around 3kv. This voltage is sufficient to cause enough current to flow resulting in a noticable "tingle" when discharged through the normal dry ten megohm fingertips. A visible arc usually requres voltages above 5kv. According to the ESD manual voltages of more than 30kv have been recorded by walking across un treated (with anti static chemicals)carpets. As to driving in low humidy, suggest you use the same aforementioned arc supression techniques and carry a metal rod or a long key for this purpose.

What about a wire from the car frame to the ground? I saw this once, at the time I thought the guy was nuts, he said it stopped his "discharge" but I think he meant it stopped his build up.

What do you think?

I am assuming its the electrostatic build-up from friction between your ass and the vinyl seat. I had this problem almost everyday in a dodge minivan with vinyl seating. I have a Durango now with leather seats and in the two years I've had it, only a couple of times I have been shocked when I open the door, but that could have been a build-up from another source that hadn't been discharged yet...

could be that when you pay the toll collector, you are using bills and no current is transfered.

could be the toll collector is wearing sensible shoes (having been zapped once too often) and is not grounded.

could be the super-size soda is the culprit.

could be the steel belting of the tires have worn thru and are affecting the static discharge from the vehicle.

could be the drive thru teller is holding onto an ungrounded electrical appliance.

could be a "spark of love" that flashed between your eyes and the drive thru attendant that was missing from your encounter with the toll booth attendant.

Aren't newer cars grounded differently due to all the electronic components than the older cars where?

Would this explain why you get shocked in a newer car but not an older one.

I've also noticed that I get shocks in my wifes 05 jeep but not from my 98 pickup.

This doesn't answer the original question but might have something to do with it.

The previous owner missed a recall notice for your mid 90's Mercury Amalgam;

corrosion in the connector to the aggravation module causes 40K volts from the ignition

coil to charge the steering column via the ignition switch.

I am thinking nylon seats and carpets as well. I googled this and came up with some interesting conversation concerning the build up of static elect off seats from the 90s. I would think that the combined tire rubber issue would also help the electricity build up.

I beleive it to be (in-part) the material the seats are made of and the fact that every part of the cars today are grounded..........As you slide across the seat to get out you charge yourself with negitive static electricity. Since you and the car are grounded to the battery you dont feel the charge when you touch the car itself......when you touch the ground and the car however you get the Zap of the Positive charge of the Earth meeting the Negitive charge of the Vehicle..........Just a guess of course......Rescue

"shocking car"!

Chances are that as a used car circa "90's)... All of these cars rely heavily on a chassis ground; computer controls were the gift to mankind. If the car has had any kind of serious maintenance it is entirely possible the technician left a ground strap or lead off the engine or under the dash.

To solve this problem & comply with wiring regs I have fitted a green and yellow earth wire to my car attached to the earth terminal of a 13amp plug. However if I drive more than 100yards it pulls out ouf the wall socket.

Can anyone explain this?

Mr T Blair

Are yes, Mr Blair, I see the problem, you should keep driving on the railway and connect to the overhead supply.

It is most likley the tyres being electrical insulators aquiring charge by being moved along the road. Some tyre compounds are very good insulators and the car holds a healthy charge for some time hence you get the clout by grounding the body shell whist getting in or out of the car.

My car has brushes in its hubs to ground the wheel bearings, I think that this is for radio suppresion but it must be static that would cause this type of radio interference problem. I have not had any static shocks off it so it must also help reduce static build up.

I have in the past fitted VHF R/T (Pye) equipment to various vehicles and it was reccomended that the inside tyre walls be coated with a water based graphite paint to provide a ground path for static to reduce or eliminate static interference, this would also work for static shock elimination.

I would say it's because so much Plastic is used on exterior componants of newer cars.......... bumpers ,grills,trim and yes even fenders. The air movement over or against the plastic creates static electricity.......Older vehicles were mostly Metal ....... and didnt have this problem.

You are on the right track about the cars made of plastic. This question was on NPR's CAR TALK awhile back and they got it wrong too by recommending a ground strap. The charge build-up is between you and the vehicle and does not have a path to dissipate because plastic parts these days include the arm rests and even the door handles which used to be metal and provided a path to the car frame. Even draping your arm across the window frame does not help. No more chrome window frames and apparently the paint is a good enough insulator. I solved this problem with my company vehicle, which is a tall 1999 4WD van, by running a bare wire across the top of the arm rest and grounding it to a sheet metal screw ( make sure the screw is actually into the steel doorframe). Now when I slide off the seat and hit the ground I don't get a shock off the gas pump as long as I hold onto the armrest while getting out. BTW, there is a video floating somewhere around the Internet that shows a woman triggering a static-sparked gas vapor fire of this type. It was apparentely taken by a survellance camera at a Shell station.

..I don't get a shock off the gas pump ..

I think it's the other way round (?) . Sounds pretty scary either way though.

It's just as I said. I don't get a shock when un-racking the nozzle off of the gas pump provided that I have effectively grounded myself to the truck frame when sliding down & out of the seat. The seats are cloth but probably some sort of synthetic fabric. I assume that the charge that was concentrated on my body is dissipated across the whole truck by doing this and that makes the voltage too low to have a perceptible spark. Interesting comment about the Japanese static dissipater, I think I will try to light a NE2 neon bulb with my static. BTW, there is a story about people driving Stanley Steamers around 1910 who would deliberately charge up their cars by blowing off steam in a back corner of the parking garage and then hold out a 50-cent piece to the booth attendant as payment. WHAM.

You just made me think , Is there something going on with women and hair-spray ? I'm sure part of it's action has to do with static. I haven't seen any bee-hive hair-do's recently , but who knows what the effect of the million and one aerosol products is.

Nah - I don't use hairspray (I remember the Harmony ads!) and I get shocks from cars, albeit intermittantly. I think there's a cobination between clothing/car fabrics and personal conductivity/capacitance.

Question: If all heating systems and cold water taps are grounded (and I'm thinking of the earth straps between radiators/pipes and ground), why can't I dissapate my static charge through them?

Maybe you're dissipating the charge from what you touch?

I'm sure you can - but the charge can soon build up again (two or three steps with loosely fitting shoes on a static-generating carpet, or once getting off a seat if you are wearing nylon tights, for example). That's why many semiconductor assembly companies have dissipative floors and provide their employees with ankle-straps, rather than relying on wrist-straps alone.

Hmm...this may be more information that many of you would want...but in the interests of engineering exactness....

I was thinking particularly of what happens when I undress - most notably when wearing manmade fabric blouses. There are audible crackles of static as I take off the blouse...and a haze of arcs if the lights are off. My hair flies every which way and the blouse swings to me when held at arms length - attracted like a charges balloon.

I'm barefoot and stockingless (they being one of the other items that exhibit this behaviour) when I try this - and even if I don't move, the blouse still bends towards me.

After reading the mini story - I'm thinking that it's more likely that the paint on the radiator is insulating (Duh!). I'll try touching the water running from the cold tap next time.

I'm not sure I can cope with such a charge at this time of day.

Even if you have discharged yourself (sounds like good advice wrt NHS too), the blouse will still set up some interesting fields.

There's a nasty jingle forming in my head , and I m sure it's that dratted Harmony ad. The car may be affected when you're wearing , ahem , pure silk.

I can't think why you'd get zapped at the sink , though my kitchen sink is severely shocked when I even look at it . On a more serious note , it's not uncommon to find inadequate earth-bonding (in pretty much any type of house - the result of the DIY at Bank Holiday brigade ) . A proper sparky can quickly check bonding / earth loop impedance and all that jazz.

On a brighter note , I now see why the stereotype boarding-house landlady (in must-have fluffy shuffle faux fur slippers ) looks like she's got a mouthful of lemons . It's not just the Blackpool weather.

LOL - I don't get zapped at the sink - rather I was hoping that something so well earthed (theoretically!) would allow by high charge to leak away.

Silk?! - I'm an engineer - how could I afford pure silk?!

<Her midnight blue silk shift dress whispered about her legs as she walked down the stairs and across the hall. She reached up slowly to touch his face and started when he recoiled in horror as the blue flame that arc-ed from her fingertips toushed his cheek. "Damn," she said, "I must get rid of that cheap nylon carpet.">

Silk?! - I'm an engineer - how could I afford pure silk?!

I know the feeling , my polyester cape is a nightmare . It's one of the absurdities of life that highly skilled Engineers get paid a pittance compared to those in other professions. No wonder Uni's struggle to find quality entrants - some of the undergrads I've met in modern times are woefully ill prepared with basic knowledge. First year drop out rate is appalling.When I was a lad... rant,rant,rant.

You could always sell to Mills and Boone as a sideline - It's perfect for a bit of adaption . I shall now destroy my scratch-pad with potential titles - My first will combine a brooding Heathcliffe type on a wild , stormy moor and a fashion disaster with his cape .The sparks will truly fly !

"You could always sell to Mills and Boone as a sideline "

I've thought about that - but could I look myself in the mirror? Could I mention it at parties?

On the Uni front , Readers' Digest think that engineering undergrads get 20 hours contact time a week - I'm sure we had over 30 in first and second year - or did it just seem like it?

"...though my kitchen sink is severely shocked when I even look at it"

-----

Look, Pal. If I were your kitchen sink I'd be shocked too, what with those horns and that red get-up and that tail you're sporting! Crikey!

......It's a perk of my job . I had an ex-boss arrive here once who was full of crap , so I re-moulded him to suit his purpose . Now he's stuck in the depths of the kitchen exuding green slime for eternity + he has to take whatever scraps I chuck at him.

Change of avatar may be in the pipeline - time for a spring-clean.

A jam donut, perhaps? hehe

I'm tempted by that - a toroidal one perhaps (really expensive , makes you drool to look at , guaranteed energy buzz from all that jam...?)

How can you have a toroidal jam doughnut? Where do you put the jam?

Toroidal doughnuts can be sugar coated, or topped with icing. Jam doughnuts are (nominally) spherical - ok so they're pretty flattened at the poles - and the jam injected into them. Or have things changed so much since I had to stop eating wheat?

Is there any reason why you can't have a Toroidal Doughnut's (patent pending ) ? I want one , and I want it now ! It would be really cool - you could munch around/along it in a sugar-rush frenzy . That would have Homer Simpson begging like a puppy . If anybody does this I want Royalties - you can pay me in 'Toroghnuts'*.

Please , please - somebody do it !

*Registered Trade Mark of Kris , All Rights reserved.

Just to be clear , my Toroghnuts have an inner toroid of jam (Strawberry )

I suggest you, me, Yuval, Sirk, Lavul and europium get together to set up a multi-dimentional firm to manufacture, market and distribute these wonderful confections. Pmihc should be kept well away from the whole project. Gluten-free varieties must also be available.

I have a new patent, claiming priority from yours: Moibus strip "toroidal" doughnuts...with icing on the top face only

I fear you may be too late: a very similar confection produced by the mums for the local Sunday school was the clincher in giving me child-free Sunday mornings when I was working in the US.

Fyz

I , i had a dream, and you , you ... .Goodbye cruel thread

Sorry - sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

[I didn't want you to put too go to a lot of trouble and expense before the inevitable disappointment. (Californian mums are notoriously litigious, particularly if there is mon{k}ey involved)]

Fyz

Hmm litigious eah... 'Yes your honour , the snivelling wreck you see before you was once an Engineer (queue further tears ). The defendants lead him on , they encouraged him with thoughts of jammy delight , built up his hopes and THEN , ONLY THEN callously , maliciously , and with unspeakable cruelty told him the awful truth 'it's been done before'. May it please the court , my client will accept nothing less than the full punishment for this heinous crime - Damn them to read Challenge Questions for the rest of there natural lives .'

Hang on a minute , what the heck am I doing down here ?

There, there - just coz we can't patent them doesn't mean we can't eat them! Have one from the trial batch

Hey , good point. Even if those mums did patent them , it wont last forever. Coming soon in a store near you : "Morbius Toroughnut's the Engineers friend."

The mummies (cue rapid dash for the off switch) would only spoil your monopoly, as this was in the early 1970s. You can make, eat, and sell all you like - but your patent would be void.

Now, if you could invent a self-replenishing icing for the top so that you sugar-freaks really really lick a continuous ring of icing...

Fyz

I bet they didn't have a novel doughnut forming technique (industrial scale) so I may get a patent if I develop one. If I Trade-mark the 'Mobius Toroughnut' name (and all 'devices' etc ) as well I could get away with this . Also , if I can convince Ronald McDonald to buy my rights I could make a swift killing without making anything Physical . Of course Ronald may want to substitute carrot puree for jam these days , but that's his lookout. Now , I need an investor for all those legal vultures....

Say , fyz , do you want to inv....

Nice thought, but - sorry, I've got more than enough of my own money invested in another high-risk venture...

Mobius strip "toroidal" doughnuts...with icing on the top face only

Mmmm, now your talking - a never ending lick . Demand will be insatiable. I shall give Pmihc a Van de Graff generator to divert him - his hair will stand on end.

...I want one , and I want it now ! It would be really cool...

Immigrate to the states, recruit yourself to the police force, and have those as if there's no tomorrow

as if there's no tomorrow...

there's no tomorrow...

hmmm...

Is there?

Are they the toroidal shape with jam in Yuval ? (I've only seen the conventional shape ones on The Simpsons ). I'll be annoyed if I go all that way for nothing.

Tommorow Never Dies , The Day After Tommorow.......

Rhett Butler outclassed Scarlett for last line (anyday)

Simpsons are not an example to anything 3D.

Alternatively, you can come here during "Hanuka" (hope my spelling's right) and have the toroidal, brown, crispy, sugar glazed, with jam inside, dripping of the rim, all Jewish and shit.

It's so hazardous to your digestive system, they print the wrapper with warnings more horrific than those of cigarettes.

To your heart's content.

I beg to differ - Homer fell into 3D (at least once ). It was too fast for me to see the magical xxxx^3 + yyyy^3 = zzzz^3 float past him (Anyone ??)

The (usual ) spelling here is Hanukkah . What's the name of these things - I'm guessing you're not doing the PR for them - it sound as appealing as a half burnt tyre. For the moment you have diverted me with the reminder about a non-existent 3D world and it's equations.

At your service

...What's the name of these things...

"Soofganya" (singular), "Soofganyot" (plural). The Hanukkah toroidal that is. There are also the jam-less toroid called "Leveeva" (singular), and "Leveevot" (plural).

I'm However, more disturbed by Homer falling into 3D.

What's that?

Some kind of parallel-universe to cartoons?

Thanks Yuval , next time I'm in London I'll go to Golders Green. Mmmmm

3D Space (if it exists ) is alleged to contain THREE dimensions ! (ROFLHO). Television would have us believe anything , and given that it was 'demonstrated' in our own 2D world only I am not convinced. Being monocular (well some of us get lucky and don't have a supernumerary eye ) the proposition is even more amusing to me. A former girlfriend payed me a great complement which I love to brag about on occasion - " Oh my God Kris , that was great Your so one- dimensional and shallow " . I guess some of us have just got it eh ! Be careful of these 3D-ers , the Klein Bottle was the thin end of the triangle.

Krispy Kreme are in the dark ages ;

http://home.howstuffworks.com/krispy-kreme1.htm

Filling by hand ? ! I believe a jam placement method (working on the Baked Alaska principle ) could work. They would have to convert to seamed doughnuts in order to place the jam prior to frying (the holed doughnuts are currently formed by extrusion).

Jam could be placed in an appropriate membrane and place between two halves prior to frying. Alternatively , an extractable forming tool could be used to leave a cavity for later jam injection.

Jam tastes better if it's NOT fried!!

Just use 2 curved needles to inject the jam into the finished ring/ mobius strip ~nut.

The baked alaska ref was to that pudding where you cook meringue but ice cream inside stays frozen , but I like your pincer-like injectors - a much more practical idea.

Nice one GM

Baked alaska works because the outer shell needs little heat to cook it.

Deep fried Mars bars work best with the thinnest batter, so just the chocolate has had time to melt!

<books trip to Edinburgh to find deep fried mars bars>

I didn't spot anywhere last time I was in your fair city - although the restaurant I ate in was nearly deep fried - we were evacuated when the fire alarms went off!

Can you tint yourself pink or something ER , I nearly made a fool of myself when I didn't look carefully at somebody else using the same image. I do a good job of being a fool without any extra help !

I don't do pink - tell the interloper to change their colour, I was here first!!

Just for you, I've gone a deeper shade of blue!! (ER's poet and she didn't know it...)

If I tell him to budge he may hold a grudge

I'll settle for blue , cos you asked me too.

Now here come the crunch , I'm off to lunch (or out to lunch as they say )

That is truly repellant ! I've eaten some strange things coming home from the pub , but even I would not go for that .Uuugh.

Deep fried Mars bars

A TV station sent a reporter to Glasgow , and the chippy happily made him one but said nobody else ever asked. Sounds like the Haggis running round hills with 1 of its 3 legs shorter so it doesn't fall over ! I was up there once with colleagues and we had merciless fun with a Malayan visitor.

On a more worrying note - why do all the hotels etc serve up haggis that looks to be sliced from a factory made sausage. Ugh . Otherwise you have the best pub-grub in the UK.

2 legs shorter than the other 2 so it can run round the hills quicker...which leads to the hunting method