Shocking Cars: Newsletter Challenge (04/17/07)

... go on ?....

They inject the stuff (jelly through the rim), just before packing.

Saw it in the Canadian "How it's made" I think.

...between two halves prior to frying... is certainly an alternative. Maybe they don't want to cut it, in fear it would ruin the soft shape.

I've seen some interesting replies to this question, I might as well add mine. I recall that sometime in the past (although my memory thought it was earlier than the 90's) that one or more tire manufacturers in the interest of improving tire life (I think it was tire life) developed a silicone based tire that did not have any carbon black at all. The tire compound was abandoned because of the very high potential charges the vehicle would develope.

JB of NM

The charge is built-up between the car and the ground as the car is moving. The only difference I can see here is that something about late-model tires make them more conductive than tires made in the 90s.

As tires age do they become less conductive? Less likely to bleed a charge?

An experiment to verify that the tires make a difference might be to install the older tires on a newer vehicle (if they'll fit, and yes, all four of them) and see if the toll collector and the drive-thru cashier still get zapped. If they do, it's the tires.

My Ford ranger, 2001, zap me in all kind of weather, except for pouring rain (thank god I live in British Columbia...), no matter what I wear. The tires have been replaced by a different brand once with no difference. I carry a little Japanese gadget to ground myself to the door latch mechanism when I get (gingerly) out of the truck. The gadget is a carbon rubber lip, connected via a resistor to a custom LCD that shows a little red, sickly face, when "energized". More fun than a 3/4" blue arc visible even on those few sunny days..

By the way, Ford don't rust, they self-recycle.

Do you have vinyl seats in your Ford Ranger?

From Europium: "Do you have vinyl seats in your Ford Ranger?"

No, cloth. And I usually wear cotton shirt and jeans, leather (steel toes) boots. Mind you, I usually have a fleece sleeveless vest under a leather jacket, so I cannot say that sliding out of my seat should be chargeless...

Normally, the rubber tires have enough carbon added to the rubber to be electrostatically dissapative (ESD). In this case, either the tires are not ESD or there is a mechanisim interfering with it, sucha as noncondutive component in the rim, bearing, etc.

All motion of cars generates static and it will accumulate if not dissapted at some desired rate.

Nick

God is punishing me for buying a piece of junk from the 90s.

I would say the insulation of wires at joints might have eroded slowly.. and some charge is leaking into the car body and thus to the driver

There are a lot of references to Ford here . Strange.

Michelin, discovered that if the carbon black was replaced with silicon dioxide the tires lasted two or three times longer. That's why our tires now last 75,000 miles instead of 30,000 miles. Unfortunately they forgot that the carbon black did more than just make the tires last longer, it also prevented static buildup from rolling friction. Michelin allowed everyone else to use this discovery and so all tires you buy have the silicon dioxide in them now. The static fix was to simply put some carbon black back into the tires.

Should be easy enough to measure the electrical resistance of various tires and see if shocking cars (pardon the pun) have higher values.

I wonder if a charged driver is grounded through a car or vice versa.

An old physics class demo consists of touching a charged object with an insulated conducting disk which can then be used to charge an electrometer - is this relevant?

STOP PRESS!!

www.EuropeanAutomotiveDesign.com p20 of the April 2007 issue is an article on the increased use of plastics in car design. We won't be able to ground through the car...so could this fuel saving (80 litres/year quoted) result in more petrol station fires?

Static-sensitive integrated circuits are generally shipped in conductive (but high-resistance) plastic packing. Wouldn't the automotive industry use conductively-loaded plastics where this is indicated? (If not, why not?)

I expected a discussion that included the fact that an automobile is, in effect, a Faraday cage. May be finer minds can expalin how this type of device can retain a static charge.

Cars - and Faraday cages, provided they're on insulating supports - retain the charge on the outside surface, just like the high-voltage terminal on Van de Graaf machine. There is no electric field inside the terminal, or the cage, or the car (except near the windows, which admit the field). But when you reach out to touch something on the other side of the insulators - the tires in the case of a car - you discharge this accumulated charge though whatever conductive path connects you to the car, even if from the interior, to the object.

I would have to say it has nothing to do with the Tires....I say that because I have 2 Vehicles both with Brand New Tires..........Vehicle 1 ....1990 Sundance, I drive it to work and for running around, I NEVER get a shock. Vehicle 2 ....2006 Grand Caravan, I drive it everywhere else and I ALWAYS get shocked when I exit the vehicle. I can drive both on the same day and have been to the same locations. So unless the Tires on a Factory Vehicle are different than the ones you buy at a Tire Store.......It has nothing to do with tires.

The guest who referenced silica in the tread rubber of tires is correct. Tire manufactures have replaced much of the carbon in tread rubber with silica in many tire lines. This has allowed wet traction to be maintained at the same time as dramatically reducing rolling resistance. (important given that rolling resistance of tires accounts for apprximately 20% of the fuel consumed by the vehicle so for an OE looking to improve CAFE it is an obvious target)

There are tire design changes that are made to help reduce this lack of static discharge but with some tire/vehicle combinations it is still a problem that both the auto manufactures and the tire manufactures continue to work on. Just an example of the impact that the lowly tire can have on the performance of an automobile.

Since I have been a participant in CR4, this is the most responses that I have ever seen to any posting. Is anyone aware of an issue that drew more responses?

Many of the challenges attract large numbers of responses. Recent examples include

Burglars and BBs - >200
Blowin' Across the Lake >300

A mini adventure.........?

http://www.esdjournal.com/archives/press_releases/2001/bmw/mini.htm

I think those cars came from the factory with a anti-static (seasick) chain attached to it.

The metal case or stand of the microphone of the PA system were not grounded properly.

The cashier was standing on a wooden or non conductive floor and next to a wooden counter.

Resulting in a circuit and ZAP.

All the PA systems could not be faulty.

It should therefore be static buildup in the car that caused the shock.

(seat cover and cloths )

The circuit : You , body of car , chain , ground , metal part of booth , attendant , zap.

The shocks are caused by static electricity generated by the tires. This effect is known as the triboelectric (the spelling my not be correct) effect. Newer cars use tires that have a lower resistivity and hence generate much less charge. Also,

this effect can be lessened by proper design of the wheel hubs and bearings.

I used to work at Ford and we investigated this phenomenon and found solutions

Grace and Peace,

jminifie588t@gmail.com

Older vehicles grounded better because they were thin reinforced sheet metal. Newer vehicles are only grounded by there frame instead of their injection molded bodies. Therefore static electricity from whatever (wind resistance or poor internal ground connections) does not dissipate readily. When exiting a newer vehicle, to elimate the shock, hold the door frame until your shoes are firm on the terf/ground/asphault/concrete

Let me guess: 1990's alternators were freaks of industry?

All of you come from relatively wet countries. Visit the Australian outback, the Israeli Negev, the South African Transvaal, ans have some literal "first-hand" experience, of everyday electrostatic zap: touching window-frames, door handles, cars, shaking people's hands, day-in-day-out.

Every freaking day of the year.

Possibly why there's no KFC in the Atacama ?

As in "fried chicken in the desert"?

You shake somebody's hand and get zapped. Hell, you kiss the fried chicken and get zapped. Get it? Not just your car, or your local freeway booth. Ask South Africans. I've been there, and done that. They somehow got used to it. I never could.

What are you disputing Yuval ? I'm with the 'wrong clothing' vote , getting myself excited and zapping the nearest object - car , pump ,chicken, whatever when I ground myself. I've done South Africa too and didn't get a buzz at all , apart from Durban and that's a different story. I walked around a pretty big Petrochem place all day , and even they weren't that bothered .

Oh, so you actually like it. Give me some zapps he says, only cannot find any. Let me see now.

Hmmm... Petroleum, and it didn't even blow... Say:

Are you talking cellphones blowing gas-station statics, the fairy tale variety, or the hand-stinging irritation?

wait. Durban you say... And up-north Joberg and Pretoria? Got zapped?

Dry climate does it all year round. Preferably high altitudes. Here, there, everywhere.

Mainly high veld , and lots of iffy smells .Dry as an Aardvarks ***. I have to confess , cell phones were the size of suitcase then so you didn't see many.

That long ago? What was it, the late eighties? Orange country?

shhh. a wee bit earlier . can't reveal all my doings in one go , need all the mistique i can get..shhh

Sure. Build up the tension for a much appreciated climax.

Are you Jewish by any chance?

If not, a Gypsy?

hee hee.The earth will move for ya baby. It's all about the anticipation/expectation.

I'm far too persecuted to be either (is that really 'A klog is mir' ,or have I just said something unspeakable?)

Most people do say I'm on another planet though.

I love it. Well, I'll pretend that you are, either, for just the right case. I'm neither, you know, which basically, is about the same. You know, 98% DNA with the chimp (My ancestor. Anyone having a problem with that?).

Now, another plannet... This might be serious.

Is it?

The extent to which my DNA resembles a Cabbage is down-right frightening !

So I keep a bit on topic : 'Go Stat' antistatic spray is 2.25 GBP for 200ml

Hurry and reply - 'Sirk' has to post 'Yuval's' reply to 'Lavuy' in another world . When 'Lavuy' gets comment and replies , 'Sirk' can tell 'Kris' who will post here accordingly for 'Yuval'. Either way somebody will get a commission

Are you a self-appointed tax-collector between our parallel worlds? Because if so, It's not me who done all the nasties, but the chimp. That's right, let the chimp pay some, even as just a tribute, to my lost humanity.

So I keep a bit on topic : Static build-up, can only use the car's capacitance to a limit, beyond which it will discharge, to the next-in-line capacitor, a man, full of... well, salinated water (blood) - acting as an electrolyte, or preferably, to the road, "infinitely" capacitive.

So, back to our business: what happens when you meet your alternative (Sirk), in their surrounding? Does any of his recognise you?

<topicality on>

Skin moisturiser will help + avoid silk

<topicality off>

Kris and Sirk are anti-matter ,but physical separation does not prevent comms.

Pmihc says 'lay off the monkey, and take it like a mannam'

The culprits were the tyres. The zap was a result of accumulated static energy which had not dissipated through the vehicle's tyres unlike in other vehicles. Some of the tyres developed and used in the 90s were of low rolling resistance types. To achieve this low resistance, tyre manufacturers tinkered with the composition of tyre compound. They decreased the amount of carbon black, a conductor of electricity, used in the rubber mix of the tyres and replaced it with silica, an electrical insulator. This substitution resulted in vehicles mounted on electrically insulated tyres and some very zapped toll attendants & drivers. The discharge of static electricity took place whenever and wherever electrical grounding or earthing opportunities occurred.

To still be using the same tires from the 1990s this must have been one of those cars that is only used to drive to church one Sunday each month by a little old lady that never exceeds 15 Km/h.

" the cars natural static " !!

I wonder if they are supplied ready charged up , and how much you have to pay the maker for a top up .

Silly me , I thought we were supposed to figure out where the static came from. 0/10

I have similar problems when I go to the store as long as I touch the metal of the shopping cart I get constant electrical zaps :(

Is this how serious ignitions take place at the gas pump? I have seen numerous occasions where people have had their car catch fire when entering or exiting their car while refueling. I my self have noticed a static zap while exiting my vehicle. I have even seen warnings at refueling stations warning patrons of the danger of entering/exiting their vehicle while refueling. low level carbon tires? things that make you say...hmmm.

the unforseen zap is probably due to the inroduction of electrical speedo"s / mileometers

OK - here's a twist:

For the last few days (weather dry but overcast and unseasonably warm here) When I get INTO my car, I get a shock off the ignition switch...this morning it was through the key (one of those ones that latch closed...the jolt came to me via the release button).

I've worn different clothes each day and different shoes.

Any new ideas?

Car pets?

ROFLMAO!

I've barely sat down let alone petted the the car!

Perhaps being an old radio man I should have known to distinguish between static and birdies (car pets that go cheap?)

sir,i had bought an FORD -IKON.1.8NXT,it too gives me an terrible shock,i just dont know what to do,sometimes the shock is too much,that it shakes the whole body.sir i would request u to kindly give me an suggestion on how to get rid of this problem.I am mailing this letter from india,eagerly wating for an positive reply.
thanking you
MANJIT SINGH

There are many situations and solutions scattered along this thread. I don't wish to appear unhelpful , but it may be better for you to read it all the way through . My knowledge is not really expert enough to summarize it for you. Regards , Kris.