Autumn Reds Fall to Climate Change

Fall gets warmer?! Winters milder?!

Come over here and say that.

A maple on my property. One of the few things allowed on my lawn. _harrumph

Very Nice

Those leaves aren't red, they're scarlet!!! Please refrain from pointing out anything that flies in the face of catastrophic climate change.

Yep same problem here in the mid west.

Winter now lasts until the middle of May and spring lasts half the summer followed by three weeks of fall and now its back into winter.

Many of us think they don't even have temperature tracking stations here or at least don't include them in the final data they collect anyway, we might skew the temperature data trend the wrong way if we got included.

We wish we would see this "global warming trend" in our area being most of us here have been doing everything we can to help it along! (At least we are getting rid of the local used tire stocks now!)

The great majority of US temp tracking stations are now inside cities in heat effected zones from all the buildings and asphalt. Rural temps have not gone up.

Here, I thought that it was just a California or a West Coast thing. This last Winter went into the end of June, then we had maybe 3 days where it got to 90°! We've already had 3 wet storms which usually don't start until mid Nov. and we just had our first frost last night. If this Global Warming, I'd hate to see what the Ice Age was like The weather around here has been the

Well here in the mid-Hudson River Valley (and further up north into north-eastern upstate NY) our Maples didn't turn vibrant scarlet red this fall like they usually do.....we had a very wet fall, and the leaves immediately turned brown and fell off of the trees. I really miss all of the fall foliage, as it's my favorite season, especially for a photo-bug like me!

Summer was hotter than usual like last year, but then again last winter was bad bad bad. We just finished about 6 months of reconstruction on the house due to severe water damage because of the really bad ice-dams and ice-snow buildup occurring on the roofs. It was catastrophic to say the least and cost the insurance company around $50k + we kicked in another $10k for upgrades to the house.

I don't know about Global Climate Change, but it's been just screwy weather altogether!

Snow in October on the east coast? Where the hell is global warming when you need it?

Three hundred years ago, during the Little Ice Age (that ended roughly in the late 1800s), New England was mostly pine forests and farms. Since then, the Earth has warmed up roughly by 1 degree celcius. But also since then the New England farms have gone fallow and have reverted to forest. And now, those forests contains a much higher proportion of maples and other hardwoods as compared with the mostly pine forests of long ago.

So it seems funny to refer to the 'iconic' fiery foliage of the Yankee Forest that is actually a fairly recent phenomenon.

It also seems funny to think, amid season-to-season variations in weather (as opposed to climate), and multi-year weather pattern oscillations like El Nino and La Nina, that the maple trees react to some long-term 'climate change' rather than simply to the amount of rain vs sun or cool vs warm days they've had over the previous month or two.

Apparently we're in for another la Nina winter, like last year. That is, for you folks with anything like a semblance of predictable climate.

It seems we never have two years alike on the island, and anyone who imagines a "trend" is in for a surprise before too long. They do blame la Nina for the exceptionally cold wet spring we had this year, not sure if she also took away July (unprecedented July, so cold and wet). As for the nice 'fall' - amounting to drought conditions - it's over - snowing already today. That's three days early, since we usually see the first peck on halloween.

In the article, if you follow the link: "Iconic Pine Trees May Vanish", then scan down to the link: "Longest-Living Tree Growing Faster With Warming", that article gives some pretty strong evidence that it is getting warmer, not that I needed any more.

Surely you have all heard that warming the globe over-all will cause intensifying cold and storms at places and times?

The time for denial is over.

Stop accusing people of being 'deniers'. That's an unscientific epithet.

Certainly the globe has warmed -- as I mentioned in my earlier reply, the Little Ice Age ended in the 1880s-1890s, and the globe has been warming since. Many people -- actually any legitimate scientist -- is a skeptic about what has been called 'global warming' or 'climate change'. Whether it's something in Physics, Chemistry, Biology, whatever, a true scientist remains a bit skeptical about everything, and should be especially skeptical about 'trendy' science that is accompanied by tons of hype and mediocre science.

We've discussed this topic a lot here. It is unlikely that anyone will be persuaded by yet another set of arguments back and forth.

You want to believe in anthropocentric global warming? Fine. But you need to be aware that you have deluded yourself if you think the 'science is settled'. The models are woefully incomplete and there is much data that is contrary to the AGW hypothesis.

You said, "Certainly the globe has warmed", going far beyond any trace of skepticism. In reading the thread, many refusals of global warming were apparent to me, but I didn't say, "Global warming is happening", rather that it should not be flatly denied, because I have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Chill out, dude. I wasn't pointing out any particular person or comment by simply stating my opinion.

Hello even:

How old are you? don't you remember the nearly ten year cyles of colder-warmer winters that you must have lived?.

By the way, as we talk now, we are slightly slipping along the ecliptic motion of our earth's axis (precession), which completes a cyle every 26000 years, and that, my friend will bring loooong term weather changes that neither you or me are going to witness, and our succesors will scratch their heads when they see evidence of swimming gear in the middle of a desert, or unground your skull from "aethernal frozen lands".

I, respectfully must say: Global warming my snug fit and warm ass; to those who still believe we are causing any change to the weather.

Regards

Since you choose to challenge my age and memory, respectfully describe the ass you rode in on and presume to instruct me on the motion of celestial bodies in such obviously emotional terms, I must conclude your main objective is to engage in low grade debate or that you are a cheap-shot hit and runner.

Why is it that when someone posts that global average temperatures have been rising one can rely on comparatively frenzied defenders of CO2 production raising impotent efforts to smear the reporter? I have no concern that your personal opinion is going to alter anything of substance, but to deny that humans burning "fossil" fuel at 1,000+ degrees in Breyton Cycle engines or that any other method we use to generate or use power creates heat is silly.

Simply posting the term, "global warming", and relating my opinion that it is happening is not evidence that I have an agenda that threatens you. No matter how much you want to spout off, I make no claim as to the ultimate effects of CO2.

There is nothing we can do about celestial movements or their affects on global temperature, and I know that our companion planets have also been warming according to recent reports. So what? I don't claim to know how much heat is retained in the atmosphere, water and land or radiated into space from what we do, but I certainly haven't gotten as excited about it as you. So go ahead and draw your silly line in the sand, but you'll never convince me that human activity is harmless to the environment regardless of any CO2 connection. Ever hear of acid rain? Water pollution? Smog and asthma?

The global climate suits me fine right now. If you want to predict that we can continue to create and use more sources of high heat without any climatic consequences, go right ahead. Maybe you'll be proven right. We just don't know.

For what its worth here is a reference to the approximate energy levels of different things all the way from the tiny to the incredibly huge!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(power)

Us humans and all the energetic things we do on this planet produce around 16 TW (10ˆ12) or terawatts while a typical larger sized hurricane is pushing around 200 TW and all the energy that the sun tosses at us is around 174 PW (10ˆ15) or Petawatts.

Comparing our energy output in energy terms in relation to what that sun tosses at this planet gives us a roughly 10875:1 ratio over what we produce or we equate about .009% as much energy output as the sun puts here or to go further still about 48 minutes of direct sunlight out of a whole year!

So how bad is added heat from that ant on your shoe making you sweat anyway?

This is the issue that I and so many other people who have some basic scientific and mathematical back grounds have. Its not that you cant measure and quantify the energy output of what we do but if its being compared to average activities of what the planet does and is subjected to as a whole the mathematical error of the measurement of the planet is still so vastly beyond our own energy levels that we cannot be accurately included in the final equations and be taken with any level of sincerity. Even if we could measure the suns energy imparted onto this planet to 174 PW with an incredibly and unrealistic 1% margine of error it would still place us at about 100 times smaller than the 1% variation value itself!

Hi:

It's a good thing you didn't get as excited as me, or I'd still be reading a 600 page reply .

The bitternes of your words, kind of reveals your age somehow, so I step back; I can't challenge you in such disadvantage; but don't misunderstand me, I'm only cheap, not a hit and runner.

FYI I ride all day long on my own ass, but take the occassional trot on others' too.

Please don't take it personally since you're not the author of the nouveau theories that you support; and I'm not trying to convince you of nothing; that would be futile.

I think we both are twisting this a bit, I admit that neither of us has specifically made statements such as: "using power sources doesn't create heat", but even that one of your own invention can be proven true: "energy can't be created or destroyed, only transformed" unless you have an argument that defeats that.

And about CO2: Why is it that when someone posts that CO2 is essential to support life one can rely on comparatively frenzied detractors of CO2 production raising impotent efforts to smear the reporter? but still take sugar !!??.

Come on, it's only a thread, don't get pissed off and enjoy it, it is fun !

I don't think anyone can deny the near disappearance of all the world's glaciers, and the breaking-off of huge ice sheets in the Arctic, Greenland, and Antarctica, not to mention almost disappearance/or lack of formation of the ice flows within the Arctic Circle and in the Arctic Sea......

The glaciers have been receding for thousands of years. At one point, the entire state of New York would have been frozen and uninhabitable.

What is creepy is realizing that, except for the last 11,000 years, earth's climate has been prone to really extreme and abrupt climate changes. See the graph here. We're in a climate stability anomaly here... enjoy it while it lasts!

According to what is known about abrupt changes in the past (as discussed in the linked article), it's possible that the present melting of arctic ice could trigger an abrupt change by stopping the present ocean current patterns which circulate heat up north. The analysts figure it would be not enough to trigger an ice age (on its own) but still enough to make it pretty unpleasant - and unfruitful for farming - in the northern hemisphere. Get a greenhouse now, avoid the rush.

Personally I can deal with things warming up even as much as another 20 degrees F of every single day of the year far better than I can it cooling off 30 degrees F further every day of the year.

Bring the heat!

Yea, I've heard about the lovely weather in N Dakota.. Sadly, I doubt any global climate change is going to moderate the extremes of the central plains/prairies. Now if you could take North Dakota, and tow it out and anchor in some warm ocean current, maybe... _{(This of course is based on our own island fantasy, of somehow getting a bit further from the Labrador current and closer to the Gulf Stream..})

Well... I'll bet the author of the article will now say "Never mind.

http://www.accuweather.com/blogs/news/story/57059/snow-piling-up-across-the-nort.asp

But you know the AGW true believers will spin this to say that this historically early snowfall is due to global warming.

An archaic term it seems only Americans 'fall back on'.

When do you start thinking "climate change" and acknowledging the total "energy" has something to do with it?

I have to agree with you tcmtech. Our climate is constantly changing and always has. Just ask any rock hound Geologist that studies the sedimentary rocks associated with climate changes. I believe it's pretty much undisputed fact, that the earth was once covered by vast oceans and then cover by vast sheets of ice..... Now, if that isn't climate change, I'll eat my hat. And to what extent (did) does green house gases play is yet to be a proven fact though Geology. Maybe yes and maybe no. If, it was a known fact, then there wouldn't be huge Grants handed out, to study the effects of green house gases and climate change. My feeling is, "Money is behind the debate!"

Quite true - "warming" is a flawed belief system and fodder for a lot of misguided political stupidity.

I like your religious inference/parallel

On that theme; this is why I'd rather see an 'age of enlightenment', unclouded by 'chapter and verse "warming" mantra'.

The babble of "It is warming!" - "It isn't warming!" - "It is so too!" - "No it's so Not! - just keeps everyone in the "Dark Ages".

I'd like A "Reformation" where focus is on observable change and what, if anything, Man might impact.

This, I think, is an 'adult conversation' the World has yet to have.

At least comments about the difference of belief Vs scepticism and why can be discussed here.

I hang out on another electronics site where I have had entire threads about this subject disappear, I have gotten week long bans and a few inappropriate language infractions handed to me with out having ever said a naughty word or went against the establish rules of the forum itself. Well okay, I did tend to drive one of the 'irrefutable' village idiots into continual online meltdowns over the subject from time to time but it was not me who did the screaming and swearing. Apparently posting the definitions to his own 'irrefutable' words and what they really mean was taken as being rude or harsh.) What can I say I like to do a little troll hunting and trapping sometimes.

I just posted link after link to reasonably creditable sources and data that I based my reasons for my scepticism on much as in the way many of us do that here when highly questionable and irrefutable "facts" get posted by some less organized and or informed people.

That's funny, I just heard this morning, that they are saying the early snow fall is the result of Global Warming! I guess my constipation this morning was caused by global warming too? It seems like global warming is causing all kinds of other problems, I might as well blame my daily constitution on it too!!

I wonder how this is going to effect spring, with the production of maple syrup.