Cursive vs. Manuscript

I prefer block done in crayon.

The only cursive I use is my signature and I challenge anyone to read it.

This actually raises an interesting point (and Brave Sir Robin mentioned it briefly further down).

Without at least basic knowledge of cursive, how will future generations sign documents? Print their names? That seems a little too prone to fraud.

The trend does seem to be heading towards electronic signatures and fingerprints, but I still have to sign for at least half of my card purchases.

What they really need to teach is how to properly write cursive on the card readers at grocery stores.

maybe that will go back of just 'leaving their mark' where they are to sign. I see you mentioned later in your post.

And some on line banking, they have a series of dots that you need establish to identify as your own. No longer having login with you login name and password info. That is your mark.

DNA sample at the check-out line. You lick the sensor.

Alright.... who had the taco salad....Lol...

Nonsense! There are plenty of writing styles that are not cursive... Italic springs to mind...
Del

Here in Korea we do sign electronically but no one EVER checks the signature - often the cashier will swipe blindly across the pad. There is no record electronically of my signature. I am still signing with my cursive roman signature but am experimenting with a Hangul one which should create confusion.

I much prefer the number pads we use in Europe (although post brexit maybe the UK will go back to carbon imprint)

I experience that, it seems they go through unproven 'Fads'

for me, it was work at your own pace. when a few where turning in their work, the teachers were blaming the students when in fact they were not pressured to get the assignments done, the results were A lot of students got left behind.

Fortunately, in the next year, there were a few old fashioned teacher that did not hesitate to grab the students by the neck and showed them where the bear defecates in the woods... so to speak.

I have had a few teachers like that. They showed me where the bear sh!ts in the woods to which I promptly told them to go and eat it.

The tenacity of youth has one thing that the wisdom of age never does. Time.

Yes, my teacher first name was 'Gordon'. 'Snortin' Gordon we called him. And in the class room when someone missed behaved, one sometimes don't get a second warning and it gets to be quite a spectacle.

The stuff he did to disciple would never go over today. Rumor has it ^{(from his students)} , he was in the special forces and he integrated prisoners..., ... Because he sure knew what to pull or tweak to get the most pain.

kinda reminds me of my dad sometimes, and I think Snortin' actually taught him also when he was in school.

When I was in school my dad was still 'just a teacher' and his largely flawed logic was that he considered himself to be a good teacher therefore all teachers were good teachers too.

Boy did that belief system change once he stepped up to an administrative level!

Great teachers <5%.

Good teachers, 10 - 20%,

Tolerably functional teachers, 20 - 50+%.

Bad teachers, 25 - 75+%

Depending on the school system and who runs it.

I thought you knew that all the children are above average.

"I thought you knew that all the children are above average."

Only in the small Minnesotan town of lake Woebegone.

"...where all the women are strong, all the men are good-locking, and all the children .. are above average."

I was taught cursive. I went to manuscript as soon as I could (or allowed) because I found I could write more clearly and faster in manuscript. My cursive writing was horrible. I was never very good at art but I could render technical topics quite well. (I think there might be a connection there.) Yes, I think it should be taught, for if nothing else, so kids can develop a signature (and be able to read cursive as well).

Agreed! Important skills should be taught to all. However, this does not mean that all must master every skill taught.

"Ignore cursive and you cut yourself off from history."

That might be the the reason for the attacks on cursive. We've seen in the past that dictators prefer break the link with the past and tradition, in order for them to 'rewrite history' for the benefit of their regime. This may me yet another prong on the multi-front anti-intellectualism attack. The more people become dependent on 'second-hand' history instead of reading the original documents themselves, the more vulnerable they become to being swayed by misinformation.

We NEED Cursive in the classrooms, to retain our link to the True History.

We NEED Critical Thinking in the classrooms, to retain our ability to tell Facts from Propaganda.

If we lose the classrooms, we lose the Future.

Actually, it's a lot easier to read in print(sic)...

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

point taken and I agree, but its hold less impact. I always felt a lot of effort went into cursive writing, at least when the writer has a smooth hand..

Like, I think, a lot of engineers taught to draw using pens or pencils, I tend to hand write most things in capitals. I don't know if this is just me, but I notice that I start sentences with 'capital' capitals by making the initial letter a bit taller than the others.

I also "write" in all capitals with the "capital" capital at the start. I can form the letters quickly and more legibly than any other method previously learned. Practice made (somewhat) perfect, and the only real way I can understand my own hand made notes. But the "need for speed" has helped the degeneration of my once, mostly readable output.

Yeah I do that too sometimes
Del

My first job while in college was as a draftsman. All "Notes" on the drawings and details were all hand lettered. It was not at all my favorite thing.

One of my "tongue-in-cheek" observations: "You can always tell an engineer (or draftsperson), but you can't tell him/them much."

The comment I hear most from today's kids about my handwriting is: "...geez, it looks like great-big typewriting..."

"I don't know if this is just me, but I notice that I start sentences with 'capital' capitals by making the initial letter a bit taller than the others."

Ah yes, the font style of Mixed Caps, clean, legible, and unlike many all-caps fonts, does not read as 'shouting.' You will also tend to find mixed caps in hand-lettered comics, since the master page is around 150% the size of the final product, and all-caps fonts retain their legibility better than mixed case when reduced in size.

When children are preschool, parents spell things that they don't want them to know. Now they can still have a secret language by writing notes in script!

I think it's sad if an otherwise educated person goes to a museum and can't read the Constitution or Declaration of Independence in it's original form.

I taught calligraphic lettering...so, pick a FONT and I'll replicate 'til the cows (or USPS) comes home...which ever occurs first.

Legibility...consistency...and spelling!

Typically, I block-print (ala' architectural drafting font) everything for 110% legibility (oh's & zero's; 2's & Z's).

Correct!

I'm old enough to have been taught both cursive and block printing. My cursive was never very legible. Unfortunately, I failed typing as a freshman in high school, so to create legible anything, I had to block print, and I've been block printing ever since.

I'm definitely quite happy to let the computer form essentially all of the characters in my writing! I agree with an earlier post where the person suspected a connection between his lack of artistic talent and his dislike of cursive. Even on the computer, I always choose the least artistic font (such as Ariel), preferring legibility over "pretty" or "artistic". I absolutely abhor signs and other text where it is so artistic that I have to scan back and forth several times to figure out what it says.

An excellent example is the mural at the San Diego Lindberg Field:

I agree with the concept that an educated person in the US should be able to read the original Constitution and Declaration of Independence. I'm not sure if it is reasonable to teach reading of cursive without teaching writing of cursive...

That's a counterpoint, studies have shown that students who are often better in mathematics often understand or appreciate abstract styles like Picasso, whereas students who have to work at mathematics often understand or appreciate logical processions like Matisse.

Thanks for the clarification...I read about 30 posts and was still wondering WTF 'manuscript' writing referred to...in 68 years this is the first I've heard the term used in that manner, goes to show what's happened to our government controlled education system.

damn that government controlled education system and that damn government controlled dam system. They should just let the locals take care of it!

The locals screw up dam systems, too. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I'm glad my parents moved out of there before I was born.

"They should just let the locals take care of it!"

We need to be sure the locals are teaching useful skills, and they're teaching it to ALL the students, not just the 'privileged' ones.

Look up the old EC Comics story "Judgement Day" for an example from sci-fi (featuring a planet of functionally identical, but not equal in society, blue and orange robots), of if you want more 'real world' examples, look up Brown vs. Board of Education and other Civil Rights topics.

(If I am mistaking sarcasm as honest belief, please pardon my reply. It's increasingly difficult to tell, thanks to an Orange Ogre constantly denying and rewriting reality around himself. At least the ogre won't have any claim to relevance in two weeks and one day.)

I agree, but I still find it difficult to use "printed" for a hand-written item. If you were offered a "printed version" of a script, would you expect it to be hand-written? Try as I may, however, I can find no better alternative adjective, other than "discursive"

I think law enforcement uses "Block letters" vs "Script" to distinguish between the two.

I learned to type in college,and got up to around 30 words per minute,but working in technical fields,with non standard keyboards,the standard home rows are very inconvenient,so my customary typing skills have deteriorated due to lack of use.

The need for accuracy is not as great as it used to be,when you had to physically erase the error with a special eraser, position the paper,make sure you were in the exact right spot,then retype the correct letter.

The motivation for no errors was great,especially on a timed test.

The dual purpose ribbon with the erase feature was the hi tech answer to that problem:

Simply backspace over the bad letter, hold down "Ribbon Shift" key,type the bad letter again,and the "white out" in the ribbon erased the error.

Then backspace once more and put in the correct letter.

Magic!

There were also two-colored ribbons,with Black/Red being the most popular.

I can hunt and peck now about as fast as I used to type,and with Spell Check, Cut and Paste,overall probably better.

Whether or not a alphabetical, phonetic language will survive over the long term,I doubt it.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

The Egyptians probably had it right.

If taught their written language from an early age,a glance at a hieroglyph could tell a whole story in an instant.

Many languages use symbols,and I think eventually a universal language will evolve that uses images and symbols,whether they be made by computer or by hand,or by a mind-machine interface.

Personal information may rely upon multiple factors,such as brain wave patterns,heart electrical activity,fingerprints,conductivity of certain acupuncture points,requiring a match of all parameters for identification.

Eventually,there might even be an implant in the brain,installed at birth,or in the womb,placed in a such a manner that tampering or removal would result in self destruction of the host and device.

Of course,this could also be used for control of the populace,eliminating any objectionable personalities.

Just as the spoken language has evolved,the written languages also will change with the times.

If we were to visit the future in say,500 years we might not know how to communicate with the human-machine hybrid creatures we encounter there.

"the standard home rows are very inconvenient,"

That is intentional, it was designed to slow down fast typists on manual typewriters. the faster one types on a manual typewriter, the more likely that the typing heads will collide and either cause a jam (requiring manual clearing) and/or bend the support arms, causing the typewriter to produce uneven text, and leading to more jams in the future.

I realize why the original keyboard was developed as it is,to prevent jams of the key arms.

Rumor has it that the top row was designed to let a salesman type the word "Typewriter" using only one row of keys.

They may have killed two birds with one stone on that design.

I have typed on the really old typewriters,circa 1920's,where the character arms moved about 8 inches of travel,and converged to one point on the platen.

If two letters were typed too quickly,the arms would jam together.

The key movement was about 1 inch,and mechanically linked to the arm,which moved about 8 inches,so the arm is really moving by the time it hits the platen.

It also required a considerable amount of force to move the keys,compared to today's touch-types keyboards.

And you had to hit them even harder if you were making carbon copies.

And if you made a mistake with carbon copies,you had a real problem.

Anyone remember carbon paper? And onion skin paper?

And certain government agencies had some crazy rules for copies:

Some agencies wanted triplicate duplicate,others wanted duplicate triplicate.

Good riddance to those "good ole days".

What real use is cursive in our modern electronic-based communication society?

Many will argue that cursive is faster than manuscript, helps with spelling, and helps with dyslexia.

So does electronic spell check and autocorrect!

Wouldn't it be better to spend the time teaching students how to use the internet and search functions properly and tell the difference between real and fake online news, etc?

The value of a personal hand written letter.

Some sixty years ago in Grade School, my teachers got the idea to prove we had actually read the books we were writing reports on by requiring us to fill out a twenty-five words – no more, no less – book report, for which forms were provided with a blank box for each word.

Naturally, we followed our teachers orders. Sort of.

My handwriting – which had never been good – was so bad I tried block printing instead of cursive. The teacher told me my printing was worse.

Fast forward a few years. I was assigned to do telephone network engineering in a military unit, and was expected to provide my drafts to a secretary for transcription and distribution to the various switchboards (an improvement over manual switchboards but long since superseded by "plug-and-play" telephone systems).

I took to carrying a manual typewriter with me when we deployed because the secretaries who were typing up these programs for distribution couldn't read any of my writing, cursive or block.

I never did learn how to type – just two fingers and thumb for each hand,; this reply is being dictated using a commercial software package. It's much more accurate than my typing and it doesn't take as long to correct.

Somewhere, I have a certificate from the US Secretary of Defense acknowledging I perfectly copied a message sent at twenty-five words per minute in Morse code. It was an interesting task made moreso by the fact that I used a short wooden pencil-stub; if my teachers thought my printing was bad they should have seen what I had to figure out after the test was sent.

The purpose of handwriting is to be legible.... end of.
The cursive "r" has always bugged me... it has no relationship to an "r" and as suchdoes not help legibility.

Cursive isn't really any quicker, and that's irrelevant if the writing looks pretty but is illegible.
Del

"The purpose of handwriting is to be legible...."

I often have trouble reading notes that I've written to myself.

But hand-lettered manuscript/printed communications can embody emotions, doesn't have to be script to do THAT. Ooops I didn't mean to put that in.

Sub-textual emotional indicators....

Short handwriting analysis schools....the handwriting is on the wall....

http://www.viewzone.com/pp/handwriting2.baseline.jpg

Yes machines are taking your jobs too....

My handwriting says I should have multiple personality disorder, psychotic tendencies, general disregard for conformality, epilepsy, muscular dystrophy, autism, and an IQ no higher than 65 and that's on the top end good day scoring cards.

I can write my signature 20 times and no two will ever be as alike as most peoples are.

Maybe you should just use a thumbprint....

https://www.shopevident.com/category/fingerprinting-supplies/441-fingerprint-ink-pad

You could show this card when anybody asked for your signature...

Solar eagle, is that an index-fingered thumb ?

When I went back to college I discovered when I took notes in cursive I couldn't read my own handwriting. So I switched to printing and I could write just as fast.

I had calligraphy in art class. It came in useful. I had to write a neighborhood report which was like writing a grant. The primitive computer I was using at the time could handle the body of the text but when it came to the cover page and any other place that needed a larger font I used my calligraphy skills.

I agree. And it can go to the college level. I worked at a smaller OEM with about 50 employees, 65 if you count the owners nephews, sons, daughters and who they were married to.

Engineering consisted of approx. 5-7 people and some of the engineers (who graduated from a ABET accreditation college) could not do fundamentals such as kinematics or even calculations. The excuse was, we had programs and software to do that.

It was to a point, that was the standard answer until I started saying, NASA has monkey that are astronauts, but at the end of the day, they're still monkeys.

To actually get things verified or done, I'd have to have the Associate Degrees Designers to verify it.

But this was going on for a while, the engineers I have been working with I didn't notice it as much, but we are in a different environment. Not necessarily and improvement, Its more management, charts, schedules and meetings.

A man goes into a bank to cash a check.

He hands it to the clerk,who looks at it and hands it right back.

"You forgot to sign it".

"I can't sign it,I cant read or write."

"Well,just put an X on the line instead of your name."

When he handed it back, it was signed Xxx.

The clerk asked why he put 3 xx's on the line.

He replied "I am a Junior.My dad couldn't read or write either."

I was all into cursive through college, even with the volumes of notes taken. Then, I got a job as a designer when one still had to put his ideas on paper for himself. Tilting table and T bar, and printing on the reverse side many times to avoid smearing the graphite all over the drawing. That was the end of cursive for me. Now, like Rixter said, just the signature and you definitely cannot read what it says.

I tried to write a check entirely in cursive last week, I don't know why, but I voided that one and did it over.

I seriously doubt we really have any need for cursive anymore with all the electronic data and forms these days. I don't see that going away soon.

I tried to write a check entirely in cursive last week, I don't know why,

I did a combination of cursive and printed writing, and then went to college were I too had drafting, and most everything I did I printed. Then I wrote a check its was a hybrid combination of cursive and printed, even my signature.