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An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

Posted March 01, 2023 8:46 AM
Pathfinder Tags: challenge question

List the places where the sun does not rise in the east.

And go!

ANSWER, updated 3.28.23

For practicality, this is impossible to answer - here's why.

The only place on Earth where the sun always rises in the East is the equator.

Within the polar circles, there are days where the sun doesn't set or doesn't rise. In latitudes between the equator and polar circles, the sun will generally rise in the east direction, but with a northeastern or southeastern ordinal direction, depending on location and time of year.

Let's leave Earth behind. Any celestial body with rotation that doesn't match Earth's "west to east" rotation will experience a non-eastern sunrise. That would be Venus and Uranus.

The remaining planets rotate the same direction as Earth, also with a tilt and generally on the same plane. The International Astronomical Union defines a planet or moon's "north pole" as the matching hemisphere as Earth, when compared to the celestial plane. Generally speaking, on Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune and Pluto, the sun will still rise in the eastward direction.

For those few people on a spacecraft...the sun doesn't rise or set at all, at least in the Earthly sense.

Anything beyond our solar system...well, the sun doesn't matter much there, does it? And the IAU has noted that the above 'north pole' rules don't apply.

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#1

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/02/2023 3:10 AM

The north pole (the sun will rise from the south) and the south pole (the sun will rise from north).

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/02/2023 6:15 AM

GA, and I was going to say "not much more to say", but, how about Uranus which has an axial tilt of 98°. Do other planets have a definition for East etc.

(Of course there's another location based on a pun of the above and the phrase "where the sun doesn't shine")

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/03/2023 3:19 AM

Well, I was considering only places on Earth - if I think of other planets and satellites:

1) There must be a definition of the cardinal points that can be applied to any celestial body. I suppose this is something like: the north pole is the place on its axis of rotation where the rotation direction is counterclockwise - from this you can then define the other 3 cardinal points. (And that's the way we know that Uranus has an axial tilt of 98° (and not 81°)).

2) The same rule as on Earth applies for their north and south poles.

3) Uranus (and maybe some satellites?) having an axial tilt >90° is a place where the sun rises from the west and sets to the east. But to see that you must be somewhere in its high atmosphere - because of the thick layer of clouds there will not be any sunrise or sunset on its surface (the same applies to Venus and all the big planets, from Jupiter to Neptune).

4) The same as above can be also applied to any exoplanet where the Sun is still visible - even it will be a small star in the sky it will rise and set (as all the other stars) but the importance of the event will be minimal.

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#34
In reply to #7

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/28/2023 2:37 PM

Thanks for bring Venus into the conversation. Good answer!

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Anonymous Poster #1
#31
In reply to #2

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/28/2023 2:32 PM

Way to think outside the Earth. And very punny! GA awarded

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/02/2023 2:35 PM

Along that same train of thought, north of the Arctic Circle and South of the Antarctic Circle, during the summer season for each area, the sun does not rise per say. Because it does not set.

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#33
In reply to #4

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/28/2023 2:35 PM

Yep yep yep. Good thinking.

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/03/2023 1:47 AM

The dark side of the moon! Apologies to Pink Floyd!

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#30
In reply to #1

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/28/2023 2:32 PM

Good work. You found the easy ones.

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#3

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/02/2023 9:51 AM

The sun doesn't rise anywhere, it just travels through space. Sunrise is an illusion.

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#5

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/03/2023 1:44 AM

Depends:

Going back in time, Plato says the Egyptian priests of Sais had told Solon that during their past generations the sun four times changed its place of rising and setting.

So it depends on where/location the cardinal points are considered to be.

See for example https://melitamegalithic.wordpress.com/2019/12/08/geology-for-the-heretic-the-mystery-of-the-megalithic-calendar-orientations/ This is the result of tectonic micro-plate rotations.

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#8

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/03/2023 1:16 PM

Several exoplanets of Giliese 581 and all of the exoplanets of TRAPPIST-1 are tidally locked. So their suns won't rise in the East. But what does the direction "East" mean on any exoplanet?

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#9
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/03/2023 1:38 PM

See "1)..." in my post #7.

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#10
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/03/2023 3:42 PM

EAST

noun

1. The direction toward the point of the horizon where the sun rises at the equinoxes, on the right-hand side of a person facing north, or the point on the horizon itself.

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#12
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/04/2023 2:36 AM

Obviously, this definition considers that you are on Earth. For exoplanets the word "sun" should be replaced with "local star". And, of course, the definition is valid for planets having an axial tilt <90°.

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#19
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/07/2023 7:11 AM

I'm afraid the definition of "North" is linked to the definition of East :-)

North:

the direction in which a compass needle normally points, towards the horizon on the left-hand side of a person facing east, or the part of the horizon lying in this direction.

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#25
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/10/2023 7:16 AM

Um, er, a <...compass needle...> points usually in two directions simultaneously.

What happens when the magnetic field of a celestial body flips to the other direction, as Earth is reportedly about to do?

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#27
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/10/2023 9:21 AM

I suppose we will keep the cardinal points unchanged. After all, we faced a similar situation when we learned that an electric current is related to electrons, so it flows actually from - to +, but we kept the "conventional" flow from + to -.

But this will take a very long time to happen and probably a long time after nobody will use a compass to know where North is.

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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/28/2023 2:34 PM

Good stuff. GA awarded for being the first to think outside the solar system.

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#11

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/03/2023 4:02 PM

The International Space Station?

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#13
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/04/2023 2:52 AM

Considering how ISS moves, the sun will also rise from the east - the only difference is that an "ISS day" lasts some 92 minutes. But near the solstice days there are periods of time when the sun doesn't set (although ISS travels over night areas, due to its height of some 400 km and its orbit position relative to the day/night regions on Earth, it doesn't enter in the Earth's shadow).

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#14
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/04/2023 4:52 AM

Interesting yes:-

https://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/Tools/orbitTutorial.htm#:~:text=The%20station%20travels%20from%20west,exact%20altitude%20of%20the%20ISS.

On reflection it would take more energy to get it, and all its visitors into an orbit going the opposite way to the rotation of the earth.

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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/28/2023 2:39 PM

Noice!

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#15

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/04/2023 4:31 PM

It depends on how you parse the sentence "List the places where the sun does not rise in the east".

If it means "never rises in the east", then the north and south poles would qualify as every direction from these locations are "south" and "north" respectively and "east" is not defined.

Everywhere else, construct a meridian through the point. At the equinoxes, due east will be in a direction perpendicular to this meridian and will be the direction of the rising sun.

If it means "Does not always rise in the east", then the whole earth qualifies. The sun appears to rise to the north or south of east throughout the year in a direction of 90 degrees to the latitude. For example, on the equator (latitude 0o) it would rise in a direction 90 degrees to the horizon. At 30o latitude, it would be 60o to the horizon, etc.

On the equinoxes, it would appear to rise due east everywhere (except at the exact poles).

Disclaimer: Sunrise defined by center of disk rather than top edge.

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#16
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/05/2023 2:16 AM

"Disclaimer: Sunrise defined by center of disk rather than top edge."

Actually, due to the atmospheric refraction, the sun disk will be fully seen over the horizon on both poles for several days around the equinoxes (so, the day is in fact a little longer than 6 months at both poles).

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#29
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/21/2023 6:26 AM

List the places where the sun does not rise in the east.

Between Cancer and Capricorn Tropics is where the sun does rise due east at least twice a year and everywhere else on earth it is slightly off east even though it is in the vicinity of the east

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#17

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/07/2023 7:07 AM

When in a relatively fast plane, say the Concorde, starting at night, flying to the west, you'll see the sun rise in the west.

Speed should be higher than ~1700km/h, which the Concorde could easily do.

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#20
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/07/2023 9:32 AM

...which category also includes other high speed aircraft flying west.

GA

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#18

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/07/2023 7:07 AM

Venus.

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#21
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/07/2023 9:33 AM

The sun rises in the west there.

Also, the cloud is so thick that sunrise is not really visible at the surface.

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#22

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/07/2023 9:35 AM

Does <...east...> need to be properly defined to get comprehensive answers?

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#23
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/07/2023 11:52 AM

East by definition is where the sun rises at the equinoxes.

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#24
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/10/2023 7:14 AM

In that case, Venus can be deleted from the list, as it is contra-rotating. According to that definition its <...East...> is not in the same direction a other bodies' <...East...>s.

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#26
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Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/10/2023 8:54 AM

From Scientific American

Our neighboring planet Venus is an oddball in many ways. For starters, it spins in the opposite direction from most other planets, including Earth, so that on Venus the sun rises in the west. Not that it happens often: a day there lasts a little more than 243 Earth-days, actually making it longer than a Venusian year, which is only about 224 Earth-days long.

I think that that definition was coined with respect to the Earth.

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#28

Re: An Offset Sunrise (March '23 Challenge Question)

03/14/2023 8:03 AM

Inside anywhere with no windows.

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