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How Now Cloned Cow

Posted January 22, 2008 6:00 AM by Sharkles

This year has the potential to be a controversial one; there is already one controversy that has been following me everywhere. In December 2007, CR4 ran an Engineering News story called "Senate Votes to Keep Cloned Meat Out of Your Burger, for Now". Less than a month later, that same topic is reborn. Last Tuesday, the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) announced that meat and milk from cloned cattle, swine, goats, and the offspring of these clones are safe to eat. In fact, the FDA claims that cloned meat is as safe as the meat from non-cloned animals.

The FDA is now accepting feedback from the public pending final approval, which will not be done for a few months. After only a week, the public has made some of its thoughts known - half of the comments regarding labeling. Since the FDA believes that cloned meat and milk are as safe as other foods, opponents of labeling do not feel that it will be necessary to label it as "cloned".

Cloning companies are against labeling because it would allow consumers to bypass their products. Their argument is that current labels do not tell how the animal was conceived. Further, they claim that the FDA mandates that risky products are labeled accordingly. Since the agency claims that cloned meat and milk are just as safe as non-cloned products, cloned foods shouldn't have to be labeled. According to Barb Glenn of the Biotechnology Industry Organization, ""It's not a genetically engineered animal; no genes have been changed or moved or deleted. It's simply a genetic twin that we can then use for future matings to improve the overall health and well-being of the herd."

At the other end of the spectrum, many Americans do not share this belief. Advocates for distinctive labels claim that the FDA has not paid enough attention to food safety. The Consumer Federation of America stated that cloning research shows that cloning results in more animal deaths and deformation that any other type of reproduction. The organization will be asking food companies and supermarkets to boycott cloned products. Carol Tucker Foreman, director of the consumer federation, claims that meat and milk from cloned animals provides no benefit for consumers, and that Americans don't want them in their food anyway.

Concern regarding the American economy has emerged. Food processors are concerned that consumers will buy less meat and dairy if they're not sure of the safety of the product. Specifically, companies like Hormel Foods and Dean Foods Co. have said that they do not plan on selling meat from cloned animals because of consumer anxiety. Economically, it is not feasible for cloned meat and milk to be found in supermarkets anytime soon. Cloned animals are a lot more expensive than ordinary animals and range from $10,000 to $20,000 (USD). When these products are available, they will most likely to be from the offspring of the clones - not the clones themselves

It's hard to say whether or not Americans will come around to this idea. The topic is definitely hot right now, and I can't seem to escape it.

What do you think?

  • Are cloned meat and milk products safe?
  • Would you prefer cloned products to be labeled?

Resources:
http://www.fda.gov/cvm/cloning.htm
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2008/NEW01776.html

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/4333/Senate-Votes-to-Keep-Cloned-Meat-Out-of-Your-Burger-for-Now
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/28/health/main2306372.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/19/AR2008011902233.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/01/15/fda.cloning/index.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/15/tech/main3715727.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3715727
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/01/fda-dont-ask-do.html
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/94074.php

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#1

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/22/2008 3:58 PM

Ok, ok, now we get huge herds of these cloned animals around the nation and then - WHAM! a virus comes around that wipes them all out. (Then what? Do we look into veganism until the herds again become viable? The ground is already depleted and the veggies aren't as nutrient rich as they were in the past. Down under for 'roo meat? Ostriches?) How long would it take to get "regular" (read - not cloned) viable animals grown and out to the market? A while I would assume. And in the meantime what happens? The price of meat skyrockets, bow/guns sales go through the roof as more and more people get into hunting. Cloning one animal, or even a few for that matter raises the chances for this to happen dramatically.

What effects (think long run) does the meat have on the consumers? Do the scientists test this idea on themslves and their families/loved ones?

Science needs to leave the original alone and stop trying to improve on it, or change it. What about the dna from a pig that was spliced with that of a worm or fish or something that would, supposedly, get rid of the cholesterol (from the pig) and bring in Omega 3 fatty acids (from the donor). Realistically, what good is this going to do for us? Messing with nature isn't the best thing to do. At least in my eyes...

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 4:16 AM

Hi Ferris.

What about the dna from a pig that was spliced with that of a worm or fish or something

How about we make this a "What about theme"

What about the

bees that are not resistant to deseases any more? This effects and desturbes the masses not just health freaks.Whole industries are wiped out because bees are not fed the real thing.

My version

Breading back the "real thing" is a matter of 'calculating generations' and not be a reason for pessimism. Time does not come in to it, because we will all die one day and never know what is/was in the future with out us present. We have to be present to witness this and do what we can to not stay or become bees. Sucked in by the illusion of "enough for all". Just not gonna happen Mate. Ky.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 6:16 AM

Hi Ferris.

Here in the UK and Europe cloned food is banned from human consumtion, not only that but also as cattle, sheep and pig feed! Another ruling here in the EU is that all foodstuffs have to be labeled with all ingredients plus amounts per 100 grams. This includes cloned food products ie, it must be stated if cloned grains or others, including all meat!

We do not give a damn if any livestock producer who rears cloned animals goes bankrupt, thats their problem not ours!!! We believe in freedom of choice ie, if we don't want it we do not buy it. We will not be dictated to by greedy farmers or capitalists!

Then there is the question of why man has to interfere with nature, after all animals have lived on our planet before us, and will continue to do so. Why do you think that unlike animals have never interbred, the reason being that it stops the destruction of species!

Then there is personel choice, for all I care those that interfere with nature in this way can go F**K themselves, I will catagorically refuse to eat there produce, and I am not alone in this one!!!

Spencer.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 7:44 AM

LOL Tell us how your really feel.

Quite frankly though I agree. I don't feel it is necessary to clone animals for food. They seems to do well at reproducing on their own.

Just another way for someone to make a buck and charge a premium as far as I can tell. Cost just the same to feed them and butcher them so the cloning process would just be an added expense.

Just another way to get screwed by the man.

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 9:00 AM

You rant about personal choice but then support a ban on cloned meat or genetically modified grain. (at least I assume that's what you mean by cloned grains)

Quite frankly, banning something does nothing to support personal choice. Labeling GM grain and cloned meats as such would allow personal choice and then the market would decide. But a ban is just a result of luddite fears and actually reduces choice.

Personally I don't share the phobia for GM products. I do have concerns that a disease would be able to decimate the food supply if the genetic diversity, and therefore the diversity in disease resistance, was removed. This problem is already appearing in bananas. It also played a large part in the potato famine as the farmers at that time had settled exclusively on one strain of potato. When disease hit all the potato crop failed. So there are some warnings here.

I can't see that cloned animals are more efficient but I don't know much about raising livestock. But as I said, if labels are applied then the market will decide.

A ban or products or vulgar rants such as your own only limit my choices. I find your whole post both politically and socially unacceptable.

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#4

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 7:10 AM

Frankencow- you think mad cow was bad, this breed is a regular monster!

Mom always said not to mess with Mother Nature...

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#6

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 8:16 AM

Isn't just letting the cows eat grass and "do it" on their own a lot easier!?!?!? I've been spoiled with Alberta beef (grew up on a farm) and now I'm jealous that I can't get a good steak...unless I hunt down meat that's been shipped from back home. Even the best "Montreal Smoked Meat" I've found is shipped from Alberta and then cured here.

[edit] I hit reply in an exasperated fit...and repeated the resounding "DUMB IDEA" that everyone else has been posting. Quite frankly I think the FDA is under WAY too much influence from the food industry. They need to be non-stock holders, un-lobbyable, scientists who do not approve anything on the drop of a hat just because a lab rat doesn't get cancer or something.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 8:27 AM

Hi kkjensen.

This seems to be a global phenomonen, Norwegian farmed salmon is flow to Scotland for smoking, then it is shipped back to Norway. Utterly crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spencer.

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#9

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 9:41 AM

I think that every one is getting to worked up over this. "What if?" There are a lot of "What Ifs" in this world and like i read in one response what if a virus wipes them all out? Well that will happen with cloned cattle or with out. And if there is such a difference then you will not need worry about the labels you should be smart enough to tell the difference? I don't know if it is safe or not I am not doctor. but i am sure that there have been multiple medications (from artificial sources) that were said to be safe and turned out that there was some long term effects. So I suppose we should just stop moving forward to trying the become a better nation and give up because we don't want cloned meat. It is silly there is so much good that could come from this that it is stupid to say no.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 11:41 AM

"i am sure that there have been multiple medications (from artificial sources) that were said to be safe and turned out that there was some long term effects."

This is right along the lines of what we're all trying to say. It happens too often that

  1. our best science is "absolutely sure" about something, proven in a study (or at least that's what everyone hears through the media...regardless of the scientist's doubts and knowledge of the limitations of their studies).
  2. Study results are applied to something important.
  3. Some 'while' later something surfaces that presents a problem.
  4. Results are explained away...new practices continue.
  5. More results are documented...new studies are conducted.
  6. New studies contradict old study.
  7. More studying...
  8. Finally an admission that study #1 was wrong.

I can't say I know all the examples of this but a few I can think of are:

  1. Thalidomide
  2. The heart medicine that was pulled from the market relatively recently.
  3. Aspartame
  4. DDT
  5. Importing south american bees to replace north american ones. (these smaller new ones don't have strong immune systems and die easily aka 'sudden hive death')
  6. Mad cow
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#11
In reply to #9

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 3:21 PM

"...what if a virus wipes them all out? Well that will happen with cloned cattle or with out..."

Not so fast, there. Without cloning, you have genetic diversity. Some of the members will have higher natural resistance to disease, survive, pass that trait on to their offspring, and the herd overall will thrive. Genetic clones lack such diversity, as has been seen with hybrid wheat succumbing to rust (a viral disease) among other examples. One outbreak could easily run rampant through the entire continental herd with devastating consequences.

This is significantly different from genetically modified plants/animals (so-called 'frankenfoods') in that the genome is only identical to that of the mother. It doesn't have lighning bug genes incorporated into it to make them glow in the dark, etc. With labeling (which seems to be the main issue) you would have a choice, but do you really think the integrity level of corporate farming is such that all will BE labelled? Please DO get a grip. Since, as is indicated in the initial blog, the cost per clone is higher than naturally conceived animals, they will either:

1) be used as breeding stock, and the offspring will not be subject to labeling, or

2) be so expensive, Bill Gates and Michael Bloomberg will be among their few customers.

So far, the consensus here seems to not support this. Is the FDA listening to us? Suuuure they are...

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 3:39 PM

>>but do you really think the integrity level of corporate farming is such that all will BE labelled?

get a grip on what? I would expect the labeling to be as good or bad as the government agencies and the rule of law. In China I wouldn't know what I was getting. In Europe I think labeling would probably work with few exceptions. In the US I would expect that ADM (Archers Daniel Midland, the biggest ag conglomerate and beneficiary of all those subsidies for "small family farmers"), et. al., would expect that there would be monster lawsuits that would cost them a large amount of money if they got caught mislabeling products.

The idea of using clones to breed stock by natural reproduction is interesting, but I'm not sure it's any more efficient unless you genetically alter the clones to make them "beefier" or whatever. That is something that isn't so easy by selective breeding, although it has been done.

Oh well, I've got more important and pressing things to worry about.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 6:05 PM

You may be correct about the labeling - that was just some of my natural cynicism dripping onto the keyboard. But ADM can hire a lot of lawyers...

And you ARE correct about natural selection taking time to produce 'better' (by our standards) animals. Genetic modification to the cloned embroyos would be the natural (pun intended) course for them to take. Would that be advertised? In a pig's eye! That work would be done in a lab so far off the beaten path they'd have to ship in sunlight! All you or I'd get to know is that it's good beef...what a lot of...

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#18
In reply to #11

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 11:14 PM

Damnit, you hit it right on the button my friend. One genetic strain will be killed off if a bug happens along and then what? Keep the herds going strong. If long term studies are given (think up to 10 years or something ) and there are NO long term side effects, children being born with scrambled brains, 3 eyes or something along these lines ( these are just joking assertions - don't get ALL riled UP) then maybe it should be found on our tables. You wanna take the chance with your kids and their future? Go ahead, just leave my family and ALL those that don't want it to happen alone! Now pardon me I am going to go and enjoy my day off...

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#13

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 4:55 PM

It is a curious logic from the FDA, that they want to save us from the heartburn when reading the label: cloned source. How beneficent, dare I say almost magnificent!

We are all so dumb and ignorant, that the agony of deciding should be spared. Nah, rather I think (and they too) that it would be shunted aside for something more appealing in the marketplace. Not everything that can be done, should be done.

For two decades a fight went on around high irradiated food, raw meat included. Good idea, as the irradiated food does not require refrigeration. The FDA steadfastly maintained, that it is just like fresh, no discernible difference. See, here are stacks of studies saying just so. I put on my biochemist hat, learned about the cobalt radiation source, asked some questions, and got the result obvious in 20-20 hindsight.

A radiation source, that kills the putrefying bacteria (that would rot the meat otherwise) does similar damage to the meat or other food to. It smashes chemical bonds, the result is a meat laced with who knows what.

Finally, it had to be labeled as such, and the market killed it. RIP, and no return.

While am not afraid of cloning, others expressed the problems with it very well, mainly lack of genetic diversity, so I do not need to go into it.

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#15

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 6:28 PM

I can see where acceptance to cloned animal food products will possible lead to problems. For now very educated people are doing the work. If and when these products gain acceptance as the industry increases, the skills of the labor force will decrease. This will incur greater numbers of mutated animals. These animals may be pushed on to the public. The public will unknowingly consume them. One ground up animal looks like any other. I believe there is too much damage to the mitochondrial DNA that their not telling us. That is why they lose so many. What if these mutations get into are breeding stock. Mutations not realize for generation. Many of our beef cattle run wild on open range. Cattle men are all way moving cows around to change blood lines. I for one do not see what they are trying to accomplish. The gestation period is the same. The time to maturity is the same. Cost to feed them the same. So now we will have to pay more for beef. So some guy can set there and clone the eggs and artificially inseminate say a cow. When the bull will do it all most for free. I said all most for free see the bull does eat grass and take up space on the land.

So what cloning get them that means a rancher with 1000 head can get rid of his bulls and replace them with 25 to 50 cows.

Hey guys watch out we may be next.

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 11:33 PM

There is no might... It is just around the corner, if you believe the news of the last couple of days. The news saying that a couple of scientists have "cloned" themselves, I guess, by extracting the genetic make-up (or whatever you call it, forgive me I am only a lowly construction worker and not an engineer ) out of a viable ovum and then implanting their own DNA (from a skin cell) into said ovum. Thus creating their own clone. They are saying that it is a way around the stem cell debacle. Clones. No matter how you look at it they all look the same.

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#16

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 10:01 PM

A clone is the same as a twin. The meat or milk from twin heifers is not dangerous. Why do the Luddites always act like Chicken Little about everything new? The new label for meat "Beef- 1/2 Angus, 1/4 Hereford, 1/4 Brahma ancestry, 2 years old, raised on grass, clover and mixed weeds, no corn or manufactured feeds, organic pasture, no hormones, no antibiotics [had all normal diseases], killed by electric shock in a humane manner." They demand that everything be "natural" and some even reject hybrids.

The Consumer Federation cannot provide any evidence that the milk or meat from twins and that from clones is any different in any way from any other. They are ignorant alarmists. They say cloning provides no benefit, but it does make it easier to preserve and spread good genes through the herds, improving the breeds, which ultimately is good for the consumers.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/23/2008 10:47 PM

Your logic is correct - in theory. What we are sure cannot happen, be assured by experts, that it wont happen, is the time when Mother Nature comes back and bites our asses firmly as a reminder, that she is not to be trifled with. What we don't know about genetics including cloning is legions.

On a different thread (green light for hybrid research) I listed real life examples of events, that should really be listed under: Say, that ain't so. Read it, I don't care to repeat it here.

There is a delightful animated movie: Fantasia. It is great fun for kids, but grownups can enjoy it too. One segment is the Sorcerers Apprentice. The guy knows just enough to get into trouble, then more, more... Absolutely enjoyable.

Present day genetic research is maybe there, or may not even be there. So kid not yourself. And I am for the research. Just think of it, that people, who simply get frightened vote too. Sometimes shutting down promising line of research, in reaction to the FDA pushing some imbecilic logic/interest. If the marketplace rejects it, I have no sympathies.

Not everything that can be done, should be done.

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#20

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/25/2008 11:52 AM

Certain countries like USA and many countries in the EU have plenty of food so they don't have as much of a need for cloned food. People living in those countries are quick to write it off as dangerous and immoral.

What about the millions of people with no food in Africa and other parts of the world? If your choice was Cloned Meat or Nothing which would you pick?

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/25/2008 12:15 PM

Concur that any food is better than no food. However, my understanding of the world food situation is that it is more of an equitable distribution problem than a quantity or quality problem. And much of the politics that seems to get in the way is at a local/regional level at the receiving end (such as the warlords of Mogadishu), and is directed at maintaining power, not feeding anyone.

It is still legitimate to be concerned about making the entire world food supply vulnerable to sudden destruction by allowing diversity to be overcome by monoculture crops/herds. To me, this smacks of some/all of the agribusiness industrial giants looking for a way to either boost profits immediately and to Hades with the consequences, or to boost profits eventually by gaining total control over the methods of production. In either event, people will starve if they don't get their profits, and possibly even if they do get their profits.

It doesn't require much of a stretch of the imagination to understand that the processing plants that made the pet food contaminated with melanine thus killing un-numbered dogs and cats would not stop short of doing the same thing with food intended for human consumption. So, will I trust any of those people to have my well-being, or yours, in mind? No, sir, I will NOT!

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/25/2008 5:58 PM

You are making the assumption that just cloning animals will feed all the hungry. I think the procedure would increase the cost of the product if we are taking about live stock. The man hours that would be taken to round them up to impregnate them would be costly. Each animal has its own cycle so it could take a while.

What it comes to is the animals being held the duration of its life in close kept pins. being fed cut hay and grains. No browsing the fields. In those conditions the health of the animal will come into question. All animal have colds and diseases that they have to deal with. if kept in a close environment viral diseases will more readily mutate due to the large numbers of animal to cycle through. Large numbers of incidents like the Mad Cow Disease could have devastating effects on cost. We would all so be face with greater chances of viral mutation like the chicken flu that would effect man.

Don't get me wrong I am not putting down the research and the the value to mankind is great and should continue. A lot of it can and will in time benefit us. I just don't see cloning as an answer to food shortages and can see other problems arising from it.

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#25
In reply to #20

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/26/2008 3:26 PM

Hmmmmm, is it the lack of food in the area? Or is it the lack of the ruling "class" support (read - government) to the people that they are purportedly ruling? Remember all the Ethiopa hype in the 80's or 90's? ALL of the foods & grains sat on the docks, rotting even, while the gov't battled internally. If the leaders would stop their internal fighting and killing, think Darfur and other African countries, and looking into feeding of the people maybe something would happen. The country is too poor to start agriculture? Where do they get the $$$ for their weapons? Divert it too where it is needed...

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#23

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/25/2008 7:16 PM

I concur fully with Environman #21 and Ozzb #22 .

A few years ago a brilliant idea came from the pesticide / fertilizer / seed producing industry: a very high yield hybrid seed, that is infertile. That means, the farmer no more has seed in his possession for the next year's crop. Rather he has to go back to the same company for new seed every year. Talking about wrong way thinking, and monopoly position with all its unsavory implications. Add to that an unwitting / uncaring genetic homogenization of the seed with all the consequences. As I understand, the farmers rejected this brilliant idea.

People who understand what they are talking about, are working hard to store away and otherwise maintain and save genetic variations for the future. Until genes can be stored electronically and reconstituted at will, that is the only way to maintain genetic diversity.

Not everything should be done, that can be done.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/26/2008 5:44 AM

"Science can't ignore questions of morality".

A group of scientific researchers has launched a bitter attack on the Roman Catholic church, accusing it of spreading lies in order to fuel opposition to experiments with animal-human hybrids, cloned animals and crops!

This reflects a growing tendency for scientists to demonise anyone who doesn't buy into their brave new world-especially in the field of embryo research and genetic modification of food crops/animals.

But,the church or anyone else is fully entitled to express it's opposition to what it sees as interfering with Gods creations. This row came, ironically, as geneticist Craig Venter announced that he had developed the ability to create life in the lab-almost literally to play God.

This turns conventional morality on it's head,and it is vital that the chuches and the people voice their doubts, which are shared by millions. The subject is far too important to be left to scientists alone!

Spencer.

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#26

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/26/2008 7:23 PM

As I understood it, cloning would be used to multiply an animal which was naturally superior in order to have more breeding stock. Say a cow is found which produces 5-6 gallons of milk a day and is immune to tuberculosis, can't even transmit it. By cloning several hundred twins of that cow you would have a large breeding herd and would be able to multiply those traits much more quickly. With luck the trait will breed true. The third and fourth generation cows descended from those clones would produce milk completely indistinguishable from milk produced by any other cow, except it could not have TB germs in it.

Cloning is used in plants all the time. Small pieces of a plant with desired characteristics are cut off and made to grow into full-grown twins. Almost all fruits are clones of one plant which just happened to grow with the right qualities. We eat Rome apples which grow on trees which are clones of the original tree.

We eat high-protein soybeans and low-protein sweet corn, but the corn tastes better. What is wrong in taking the DNA which makes protein out of a soybean and putting it into sweet corn so you have a healthier, more nutritious higher protein sweet corn? It is just a type of grafting and it doesn't make the high protein corn dangerous.

The products of these techniques should be tested by scientists without an axe to grind. But to some people no amount of testing or even the consumption of such foods without harm will ever be convincing enough. They will always cite anecdotal stories to "prove" their opposition to be right, no matter what science shows. If impartial tests show a real problem then and only then should a product be withdrawn,

E. Coli and other germs on foods kill people every year, but killing the germs with radiation is staunchly opposed simply because it is RADIATION. It doesn't matter that it leaves no trace and has little effect on the quality of the food except to make it germ-free. It is the dreaded RADIATION, that is always going to be considered bad and evil by the terminally natural and organic food groups who will then try to keep it off the market.

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/27/2008 1:35 AM

Therein lies the problem... DNA which makes protein out of a soybean and putting it into sweet corn so you have a healthier, more nutritious higher protein sweet corn... In short I guess it would be good but what abou the long term? What are going to be the long lasting effects (if any?) of this way of breeding plants and animals. The idea of being given this and told it is "safe" by the same people that grow the clones is lame. I agree it would have to be tested by a group of people that would not be tempted by the $$$ and what not that will be flashed to them, whether in a professional or personal way, to make the call on the safety factor. I guess that I have too many crazy Hollywood ideas floating around in my wee little brain...

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/28/2008 4:27 PM

"...too many crazy Hollywood ideas floating around in my wee little brain..."

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean nobody's out to get you.

Personally, I see no reason to blindly trust any person, government agency, or industrial enterprise with that much potential for gain (monopolization of the world food supply!) or loss (of that entire food supply!) at stake. I think those that do the checking should have someone checking them...

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/28/2008 8:17 PM

A group to watch over the group that watches over the later to watch over the former and on and on.... Very twisto-matic for the ol' brain to see that one. At least for the beauracrats that would be looking over this issue. Keep 'em the way the have been for the duration of our history - herd animals. Doing there own screwing (or is it now insemination?) and keep science out of the fold. There are soooo many different things that need to be unlocked in this world that could take the brunt of these scientists and their "ingenuity."

A couple of years ago I was working in a new building for a drug co. named IDEC ( the building now is owned by Genentech) and they were building this place to cook up some medicine, it was HUGE. Well, the costs of just the area that I was working in was around a billion and counting. It was at that point that I figured out that rx manufacturers DO NOT really wasnt to find ends to disease(s)If they were to put an end to cancer, then where would the share holders of the rx comp. continue getting their dividends? Think of that: A billion dollars to have a plant that would cook up spinal liquid from a frog out of Vietnam/Laos or something like that would in the end "help people"with either (I have forgotten which) MS or to help people that are going through chemo. Well a couple of people died and the drug was CANNED(!!!!), but that is 'ok' cause we will just write it off as a loss in the cost of business... !!! !!!

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/29/2008 8:07 AM

"...A billion dollars to have a plant that would cook up spinal liquid from a frog out of Vietnam..."

So you cracked the code on 'Big Pharm', huh? Sure, they want to make drugs that will keep people buying them, not drugs that will end disease forever. Somewhere back a few years ago, maybe in our lifetimes even, the Hippcratic Oath seems to have become the Hypocritic Oath. And the patients 'need' more tests to ensure a correct diagnosis. Using equipment that not only didn't exist when I was a kid (and I'm not all that old...), but the underlying principles hadn't even been discovered yet (MRI, CAT, etc.). But now they are essential. Right. At $10M+ a copy. So it has to be used a lot to pay for it before it becomes obsolete. Then the insurance companies get into the mix to try to hold costs down (yeah, as IF!), so insurance premiums head for the ceiling tile at supersonic speed.

instead of

I learned a few things about business way back when that they don't seem to teach these days. Things like wealth comes from the conversion of resources into products (iron ore, limestone, coke and coal into steel; steel into infrastructure and commodities), the harvesting of resources into products (trees into lumber; wheat into flour; fish into dinner), and the production of products out of resources - you know what I mean. So we disrespect labor and send all of our production to other countries to be done by workers so poorly paid they qualify as slaves, and the people in charge don't seem to realize that without jobs, the people here won't be able to afford their goods no matter how much cheaper they become. I fear we live in interesting times...

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

01/31/2008 11:49 PM

Don't know if this spelling is correct but there is a thing called irridology. It is a way to figure out what is wrong with the body by looking at the iris. It, the iris, shows through different meridians(?) what is going on in your body, from your spine to your colon, your legs, feet, heart everything is there represented in the eye(s). Oh, but it is not cool 'cause it is not state of the art, they can't charge an arm and a leg for diagnosis. And, oh let's call it holistic...

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#32
In reply to #27

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

02/01/2008 1:20 AM

Why do some people always think the worst will happen? Neither the soybean nor the corn is dangerous. Hybrids are very similar and they have not caused harm. Every fruit tree around is a clone of the original mutation.

I do agree that testing must be done by those who will not gain or lose money based on their results and would further stipulate that they should not have any personal agenda to pursue either pro or con. I also agree on the "too many crazy Hollywood ideas floating around in [your] wee little brain ...," LOL

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

02/01/2008 6:14 AM

Hi Tangan.

So, you think that I think the worst?

Well let me tell you what has happened in England in the last few days. Scientists at the Newcastle Univerity have taken stem cells out of a womans bone marrow, these stem cells have been coaxed to produce sperm, male sperm, this artificial sperm was then used to fertilise a female ovum, and it worked!!!

Now, this means that one day it will be possible to dispense with men to produce offspring? MEN REDUNDET, was the title of this artical, and it scares the hell out of me, not because I am a man, but because of what will become of my male grand children and their offspring???

Another quirk in this artical is that any woman would be possible to impregnate herself by this method, ethical, I don't think so!!!

Spencer.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: How Now Cloned Cow

02/01/2008 11:42 AM

There are cases where what CAN be done should not be done. However someone will do what they should not, despite any laws against it.

A sci-fi story I once read ["Amazon Planet", I think] was about a world populated solely by women. They had a machine and a religion to explain it all, but in reality they had some men in a stud farm in the temple, used artificial insemination and were able to separate the XX from the XY sperm.

This discovery would make possible an all-female society, since the sperm produced would only produce more females. Bad idea.

Cloning is the same as making a twin. The copy is genetically identical, any differences being environmental. A clone of a human is also human, but younger than the original. A clone of a mathematical genius has the potential of also being a genius, but environment can change that. A few hundred copies of Jessica Simpson growing up over the next 20 years adopted into different homes might look alike, but they would all have different personalities and develop different talents, marry different men and pass on their genes to their many natural children. Not as bad an idea.

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