A College Diploma Anyone?

This makes me so angry. It just undermines the reputation and hard work of those of us who used sweat and hard work, and burned the midnight oil, to attain degrees.

That being said, how much is a Ph.D going for these days?

Well, after the Federals found this diploma mill, I am afraid a Ph.D. will too much for me to afford!

-Abe

Have faith! I am sure it is just one of all too many!

Hmm, outside of accredited BS programs in engineering and science there are really no standards for specialized subject education anyways, and the general education requirements set by the states varies and is only set to what they expect the typical college bound science student to have learned in high school to enter college. Is it really different than say what Harvard does with business degrees for their wealthy applicants (they just pay a lot more for a Harvard degree in Business). So now some people's Fathers don't have to be the head of the CIa or President, buy a wing of a new building or make a $1,000,000 donation for their child to receive a degree (it just won't be from Harvard, Yale or Stanford). So for degrees in major such as business, it might be a better use of space and labor funds to just set the entrance requirement to those used for a aplicant for a BS in Chem, EE or CE, and just give them the BA in business. Imagine how much more profitable and productive the universities would be if they just charged the $25,000 in tuition fees for a business degree and hand it out to those who met the entrance requirements, plus all the labor cost in business professors. Then they could re-allocate the funding towards addressing the apparent shortages in physical sciences and engineering. Additionally, all those business majors could then jumnp right in to marketing or sales jobs and start earning money and paying taxes. Now I am not sure that the same should happen with a MD, PhD in Chem, DE in Civil Eng, etc. your own health might actually depend on them being knowledgeable in their field.

"...plus all the labor cost in business professors..."

And they too could get into marketing and sales jobs and maybe improve the marketplace. "Would you care for fries with that?" just sounds better than "You want fries with that?", doesn't it?

I do understand your reasons, but believe me I know excatly of what I'm talking here. It begins from "innocently" looked "..buy a wing of a new building or make a $1,000,000 donation for their child to receive a degree.." then it inevitablely ends up "Harvard, Yale or Stanford". Take a look here, for instance.

Only occuring everywhere from common people level condemning and unacceptance of such kind of "business' and "education" could cope with this disaster. Neither further accreditations nor State's acts and other like measures could recover contaminated education system. It'll be too late. Sure.

Oh if the state justice dept. were interested and the legislature passed stricter laws, they could pretty well stop such behavior amongst university adminstrators. Currently, it is pretty blatant and obvious. At least it would cost much more to circumvent the process if the administators knew they had a high potetnail for inprisonment. I am a strong believer in placing white collar criminals in with all the other criminal, and Soledad State is the nightmare most administrators do not want to attend. Basically it is a risk rewards issue, and right now there is no real risk unless you give degrees to poor people (this is highly frowned upon amongst the politicians, even when the people did the work for the degree).

GA but then how many of the justice dept. would be liable for their credentials?

Brad

True Law degrees are just more expensive business degrees bought by really wealthy families for their sons who want to be perceived as a even more important resource in environmental activism or business. The best way into politics is to have your father buy you a law degree from Harvard. Whole family political dynasties are built that way.

Hello RCE,

But that would open the credentials can of worms that judges could not afford. Some estimates are as high as 80% of all US judges have not filed their oath of office to uphold the Constitution. As far as I'm concerned they should be liable for treason as a spy for impersonating a judge. All government agents should be held to uphold the Constitution.

Brad

I'm so sorry for my delayed response as I have been out with my business trip.

I do agree and I'm sharing all your arguments. Risk of appropriate criminal charging along strict and concrete juridical definitions of such kind of misbehavior should be done. Beyond an any one doubt. But on my opinion it is the last bastion so it works partially for some persons who could already go through their very flexible moral boundaries.

Therefore I'm continuing to state that more effective mean is condemnation from every level of society, e.g. don't great such person, don't notice, avoiding any kind of contacts up to boycott.

People have to understand that such kind of misbehavior won't bring them profit for long perspective.

best regards,

caramba

"...condemnation from every level of society..."

I know what you are referring to, it used to be called "shunning". But in our society today, I seriously doubt it would be effective, even if we could induce people to go along with the practice. It is also possible that this problem has been going on long enough that so many people have bogus degrees that not enough disgust still exists to make a difference to them.

Haha. Burned the midnight oil. I guess I am not old enough to have seen that happen

You are absolutely right however, the people who don't take 'shortcuts' are the ones getting short-changed here.

This stuff often has a way of catching up to you. Just ask these 10,000 losers. Even if not caught, yet, always looking over you shoulder must suck.

If they took this route, I doubt they ever looked over their shoulder.

It would suggest at least some conscience. They may have lost jobs and such, but who knows how many collective millions in income were lost by people who were qualified.

It's like Enron. You can get the men...but you don't ever really get back what they took.

NOW you tell me!?!

Say, are your avatar and ABE's avatar cousins or something? There's a definite family resemblance...

This would help explain the obscene number of posts lately that have been begging for conductor voltage drop calculations. I can't recall when that was covered in college; was it the first day or the second day (and then every day thereafter)?

diploma mills have been around for centuries. There are valid and easy ways to check these frauds with state/national accreditation bodies, which any HR department should be able to easily do. Of course, the HR dept head has a fake diploma......

I suspect it is embedded laziness which fails to check people properly, and the severe shortage of trained people, so they get hired, with an intention to check later, that may not be done.

Quite a number of smart well read people can fill many positions

Perhaps this isn't what you mean, but this is how I interpreted: "Quite a number of smart well read people can fill many positions"

What about the person who grew up his entire life working on cars and fixing numerous problems with his automobile(s). At this day and age, kids are merely taught, they have almost no practical knowledge (ok - so a lot of mechanic classes these days include such hands on approaches, but there are definitely some that teach by the book). Who would you rather have working on your car, the person who has had his head stuck in a book for 5 years with a degree or the person who has worked on cars personally since 16?

Then again, just because you have the experience, doesn't necessarily give you the right to cut corners and buy your own diploma.

Quite often professional qualifications are not needed for a job, but are in the requirements. Thus a smart person can fill it and serve well until the faked credentials are exposed.

Harder to do in some area, dentistry, medicine, as few have picked up those skills.

The worst thing is the 'documented man', a graduate with a real degree but no ability to do the job.

Something in the world of education bugged me when I first started. It was my own fault that the situation arose, but it ended up making me shake my head anyway.

I moved a few hours away from where I was living when I landed my first teaching job. In the shuffle, I misplaced my newly minted teaching certificate. I had the credentials, but I couldn't find the hard copy. Since I was newly credentialed, I wasn't on the state's website (as it lags by 6-12 months), but I wasn't asked about the certificate until halfway through my second year.

It is quite possible that the HR department just called State Ed and verified that I was certified, but I don't think I handed them a hard copy of my certification until the beginning of my third year. It surprised me that it wasn't a bigger issue. As I was a student teacher when I interviewed and they knew part of attaining my Masters was getting certified, I am sure they knew I had it, but it was just so nonchalant. Totally my fault that I didn't turn it in - but they gave me two full years to get a second copy when I only needed six weeks. Maybe that isn't such a big deal, but it did bother me that it was so easy to put it off.

Even with the coaching scandal with the one coach that was hired at Notre Dame, where he blatantly lied on his resume, it is probably a lot more common than we think.
It just goes to show that people don't take personal accountability or honor to account. They just want to get paid.

You have hit the nail on the head , the lack of integrity leads to graft and corruption in these departments even worse if you cant blow the whistle in case your credentials are scrutinized also,

In the case of a genuine whistle blower in my country there is absolutely no support given to them especially in political circles, one would think they would be given a job promotion, better pay and a citation but they are moved on sacked, belittled and any other form of humiliation that can be heaped upon them. This all comes from there colleges who have many secrets to hide and once the rot has set in it is virtually impossible to get rid of these inferior people, it is a common problem which in a lot of country's is solved by bloody revolution

The fact that you could buy your driving licence if you knew the right people is a reflection that our society is being destroyed from the inside at the top and bottom layers our institutions are riddled with these weak brained and ineffective people does not bode well for our futer.

Especially as they take parts in a larger and larger portion of society. It will make such actions seem acceptable because more of the norm will accept them.

Soon those that believe in honor, integrity, and character will be in the minority. That is when I truly fear for our world.

For me it took all night.....Hang on...I only go to tech (college) at night and yes it was the first subject on the first night.

Sapper

These people went to work for all of these different dept's in the gov't? Shouldn't be too hard to believe when you stop to remember that incident last year (year before?) where an illegal was found to hbe working for the border patrol (with forged docs, no less) and was using his "new foud power" to move other illegals around here in khalifornia... Very, very disturbing indeed...

Ferris

Funny the Article 4 Justice courts didn't want us to known the names. Sounds more like they tried to cover for their own, not to do justice.

In Law the appearance of misconduct by a Judge is grounds for recusal, the act voids their immunity.

Liljeberg v. Health Services Acquisition Corp., 486 U.S.
847, 108 S.Ct. 2194 (1988) (what matters is not the reality of bias
or prejudice but its appearance).

Brad

Good answer madness.

Very well said.

Nice to meet you.

milo

In a somewhat similar vein, I used to work for a federal agency in the '90's, which at least once, chose to pay the full tuition of Master's Degrees in Systems Management for three of their younger (department heads). On the surface, it sounds like a worthy investment of an organisation in it's apparently probable future leadership, but... (labor) was offered no comparable (organizationally financed) opportunities...

It was at rate of at least a thousand dollars per unit times thirty units, for one year's worth of program, times three participants, not including books, fees, lost work time, etc., at a nationally recognized (educational institution).

The (weird part) was that the program only included one course actually addressing system management, and that, after they finished, the participants were not directed to apply any of the topical knowledge back into any of their work-related activities...

The (scary part) is that (organizational Leadership) wanted it that way...

The underlying agenda was, apparently, to help insulate said (preferred ?) participants from forseeable downsizing. All this occurred with taxpayer dollars, while the actual product-producing labor force was repetitively reduced...

The most costly business mistakes are made by management, while the most pain from those mistakes are suffered by labor. Yet, such management remains protected in place, while such labor is left blamed, relatively defenseless, and (organizationally abandoned)...

In any case, maybe (labor) could have similarly insulated themselves via such diploma mills, without using taxpayer dollars to do it...

Thank you. Its nice to know there is a site like this for like minded people willing to share there expertize for the benefit of all.

It is totally shocking to hear such thing happening in U.S. My questions are:-

1.When appointments are made for such important departments, does HR dept check the recognition of university who is issuing qualifying certificates.

2.If the person who has purchased the degree,how can he carry on with his job without proper knowledge of the profession.Does his Boss not aware about his day to day working.

3.How such persons are appointed ? during the interview are they not asked some technical questions related to the job ?.

It is very serious matter and show the laxity in appointments being made in U.S in such a casual manner.

Suresh.Sharma.

"during the interview are they not asked some technical questions related to the job ?.

Suresh, Many of the responders here do a great job responding to some very technical questions, but do not necessarily have a degree, nor a degree in that field. A degree does not guarantee performance, though thats how HR departments bet. Likewise, I've known lay people who could outperform very very well educated technical people.

Yet the position requirements state degree necessary. So they buy a degree.

Reminds me of the old joke what do you call the medical student who graduated last in his class???

Answer: Doctor.

milo

Milo, you got that one spot on!

Dear Milo,

If person by experience is qualified to do the required job then I agree with you that a paper called degree can be bought by him. Yes it is experience which is more important.But how can a person without qualifying in proper medical college can gain experience to treat patients?.Can he operate a person in operation room?.May be in certain profession one can learn from experience.

Suresh.Sharma

It is not as easy as you think. In the USA there are huge numbers of colleges of many varieties, and no single place to confirm the validity of a degree and to determine the accreditation of that institution. All the diploma mills will confirm that Mr X-Y received a PhD in coaxing cats from tree branches, with distinction too, I might add. So an inquiry must be made to another body or institution about the merit of the diploma mill. These places are inundated by inquiries and privacy issues complicate matters and often require an exchange of a number of letters back and forth. Even if the person is found out to be a fraud, he may have collected several months wages and he may now be able to lauch a grievance, and get paid all the while.

In an ideal world, competent people in the hirees' discipline would interview him and ask him detailed questions about the discipline...thus exposing flaws.

Sadly, it is often a HR person who gathers facts and documents and others screen the application and based on the documentary show, he/she is hired with none to say he is not qualified.

Dear Aurizon,

I am from India,here we have Govt. appointed Board/Councils which have to approve the educational Institutions.Criteria is laid down for approval and there is regular checks to see if such colleges are properly maintaining laid down standards. All such colleges have to declare that they are approved by the Govt.So you can check up before joining any of the college.Well there are cheats everywhere in the world, we also have them here too but employer ensures that person being considered for a job is from recognised college.

Suresh Sharma

Our schools have accreditation standards too, set by what are usually more-or-less private (although non-profit) institutions. The thing is, if a diploma mill will lie about the education provided, would they then tell the truth when asked about so-called graduates? Given that a hiring official even checks up on the "Millhouse University of Pedagogery", they won't know any more about it afterwards.

these places depend on bad HR procedures as well as slow procedures, so they get the job and may keep it as long as they can fool their jobmates, and the game carries on until they are outed

Exactly - and I have heard of people faking it as doctors and surgeons, too. Lawers? Hard to say - how would you tell?

You should read the news of doctors in my country with wrong or non existing qualifications. The government authority's have just not bothered to check there details even when malpractice was brought to there attention,they were to damn lazy to pursue the problem. As a consequence a lot of hard working and valuable people working in our hospital system are are suffering unjust recriminations because of these bad apples.

It is beyond me why these government departments cannot do there jobs properly how much better would life be for every one if they would, even for the government departments in question.Now all they do is spend there time ducking for cover which is is poor value for the tax payers money.

My opinion of how good the values that human beings hold is severely tested by these problems.

RE:

"It is beyond me why these government departments cannot do there jobs properly how much better would life be for every one if they would, even for the government departments in question.Now all they do is spend there time ducking for cover which is is poor value for the tax payers money."

Ever notice how civil serpents wages go up by a cost of living allowance, which they call no wage rise. They then get another 2-3% on top.

Over the past 40 years this cumulative ~6% has meant that the wages double every 12 years, while the cost of living doubles every 24 years. Thus the money diverted into the civil serpents has undergone an unconscionable increase compared the the average Australian. The net result is budget shortages and jobs no done. In addition, these serpents are lazy in everything save their union wage demands. As result we all suffer with bad services and no budget for infrastructure, roads, bridges, airporrts, all suffer from this. Stern management is needed to roll back these runous wages. It hurts the children especially hard.

Around where I live, the average teacher gets about a 2% raise, per year. Just throwing out a comparison.

they might get a 2% raise, but embedded in their contract will be a COLA clause = Cost of living allowance. This adds to the COLA.

the COLA varies from year to yeaer.

I hear New York has afunds problem in education. Guess where the blame lies? Weak administrators who are elected politicians who give and and increase taxes.

have a look here, most get $30,000 to $40,000, some lots more.

http://www.workplaceauthority.gov.au/graphics.asp?showdoc=/payandconditions/PayScaleSummaries2008/PayScaleSummariesA-C.asp

Hi all,

As I'm on holidays, I read the mail just once or twice a week, but I've just erased as every week several mails from the US offering to get/buy a degree without examinations. So I think the "discovery" is just the summit of the iceberg. A lot of work seems still to be done by this guys....

Anyway, I don't agree at all with "buying" a certificate. Of course I know some people with no degree or just a BS degree in which I have more confidence than many PhD others. As some of you have said, our learning time doesn't ends when leaving university, it take our whole life. Years of experience may in many cases give better results than just a diploma. But universities should look some other ways to get the diploma, as they do with "Honoris causa" PhD: Recognize the knowledge of people.

I think it is possible to establish a system of just one examination for that people in which after demonstrating their previous experience, they can practically demonstrate having the required knowledge. This may cost some "examination fees" but no 4 or 5 years and I don't consider this as "buying" a diploma.

Kind regards

If bought with tuition fees and classroom time, or an investment of years of experience, it's quite a different kind of purchase.

Of course! but both need some years. As we say in Spain: "Knowledge needs no room" and I use to add "but it takes time!"

Here is an e-mail example I've just received today under the title: "No Class, No Exam, BUY Yourself World Recognized University Degree/Dip1oma/Bacheloor/Maaster":

Quote:

It cost You NOTHING (Yes! $0) to give us a call, we will Contact you back

No Tests/exams/Books/classes/Interview

100% No Pre-School Qualification Required!

------------------------------

Inside USA: 1-718-989-5740

0utside USA: +1-718-989-5740

------------------------------

Degree, Bacheelor, MasteerMBA, PhDD available in the Field of your Choice so you can Even Become a Doctor and receive all the Benefits that comes with It!

Please kindly Leave below 3 info in voicemail:

1) Your Name

2) Your Country

3) Your Phone No. [Please Include Countrycode]

CALL NOW! 24 hours a Day, 7 Days a week waiting for your call

------------------------------

Inside USA: 1-718-989-5740

0utside USA: +1-718-989-5740

------------------------------

Our staff will Get back to you in 1-3 working days

Unquote.

I think this is directly related to the OP and with the data supplied I don't think authorities must have great problems in locating... (They even can call and get a Dip1oma, a Bacheloor or a Maaster, whatever it be)

Will they include some Literacy degree?

Yeah, apparently spelling doesn't count for much on their planet. I can think of two reasons (apart from illiteracy) for this:

1. They are deliberately misspelling things to hide a few days longer from the authorities that might be looking for them, or

2. They figure whomever wants this kind of degree will be illiterate enough to misspell the key words anyway when trying to find them.

For what it's worth, that 718 area code is for Queens, New York (NYC Borough).

During my working life whenever we used to hire engineer we used to conduct simple Techanical Apptitude Test to check up the techanical knowledge of the candidate. This used to ensure that person atleast knows the basics and is not a fake degree holder.

Suresh Sharma

The only remedy of such awful things is: keeping unacceptable this kind of business[from false Unis] and this kind of consumption [from fake students].

taking in account the response of this blog thread --- I hope you rest of world have a chance yet to cope with this social illness yet. Though I'm not sure completely of this chance.

Mentioned at thread topic list is a very effective measure, although on my opinion it should be a headline for world's newsmakers like CNN, BBC, news.yahoo.com etc not only for stand alone web site.

Corruption is bad thing itself, corruption in education sphere --- is a cancer like disaster.

Hi all again,

One more example of corrupted system and different of "buying a diploma from a mill".

Here in Spain, few days ago was set free one terrorist whose record is just 25 people killed. His penalty was for some thousands years (we have no death penalty nor full live imprisonment). One of the reasons to shorten their prison time was he get a degree in medical assistance from an official university (not a diploma mill). The problem is that the diploma included matters which doesn't match with the scheduled at the time it was issued among other irregularities. This subject is known by justice which have a "case" open from several years ago (2005). It seems it should be too difficult to invalidate such a diploma. Many other terrorist have take benefits of similar "degrees" issued by the same university (What a surprise!)

And I made a critic about the US Department of Justice!!!

Kind regards

Hello Kwetz,

And I made a critic about the US Department of Justice!!!

Go ahead and criticize the US department of Just us.

For years the AAAS (Am. Association for the Advancement of Science) has been petitioning them to allow all forensics to be scientifically reviewed for years. The US Justice Dept. has ignored it every year.

I think they are still mad because the only forensic method every to pass scientific peer review was DNA and that over turned 25% of the FBI's cases.

The previous editor of Science magazine was very concerned on the matter. But like not wanting to air their dirty laundry on the government agents with fraudulent diplomas, only in-house tested forensics allow for what ever degree of acceptance the court chooses to accept depending on its needs at the time, not as justice deserves.

Brad

UV: This is very interesting May I suggest that you document this issue further and start a new thread?

Milo

Ok Milo, I'll do that. Science magazine had an full page editorial some years back, post 9-11 that got me interested in it. And when the Attorney in Portland Oregon was held at Guantanamo for the Spanish bus bombings for a fingerprint that was very likely not his I realized this was a issue of inquiry.

This may or not be real quick due to time constraints. (A State Deputy Attorney General lied to the Federal court in response to my motion and I'm filling on it)

But I will Try to get it done next week.

Brad

We'll be anticipating!

milo

What does the US Dept of Justice have to do with the flaws in the spanish justice system. We have life imprisonment and the death penalty. Terrorist who kill 25 people in the US are not going free. Heck Charles Manson only direct 4 other people to kill like 5 or 6 people, and he has been in prison now for almost 40 years. Our justice system doesn't typically excuse criminal acts just because you received a education while imprisoned, at the communities expense.

Hello RCE,

You're right and I like your justice system more than ours even I believe no system is perfect.

If you read my previous posts (40 and 45) you will see that I first rather criticize US Justice Dept. because there are more and yesterday I cut and paste the text of one e-mail just received from the US, with phone number included and I think it shouldn't be too difficult to locate them and punishing then according to law.

After that, I posted about one Spanish case much more shaming and I finished it trying to show my shame for having criticize your Justice Dept.

I think you may suppose that I can understand that one country's Justice Dept. cannot solve other countries problems. Sorry if you feel offended.

Kind regards

This web site has been compromised??

This has just been dumped into my email I consider it a bit of a coincidence.

=================================================================

WHAT A GREAT IDEA!

We provide a concept that will allow anyone with sufficient work experience to obtain a fully verifiable University Degree.

Bachelors, Masters or even a Doctorate. For US: 1-610-549-3276
Outside US: +1-610-549-3276

"Just leave your NAME & PHONE NO. (with CountryCode)" in the voicemail.

Our staff will get back to you in next few days! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.12/1640 - Release Date: 8/28/2008 6:58 PM

Yeah, but hey, check it out - it MUST be legit, because its: "...fully verifiable..."!!!

And they are probably fully credentialed in the State of Colorado, Arizona, or New York. I receive a lot of junk mail for such programs and all seem to be fully credentialled in one of those States (particularly Colorado). I received one that stated the online program for a Doctoral Degree was a fully credentialled program in Colorado just like the Air Force Academy and the University of Colorado.