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Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights

Posted June 04, 2009 9:42 AM

From Yahoo! News: Personal Technology:

Get lost in the woods and a cell phone in your pocket can help camping buddies find you. Drive into a ditch and GPS in your car lets emergency crews pinpoint the crash site. But when a transcontinental flight is above the middle of the ocean, no one on the ground can see exactly where it is — in the air, or worse, in the water. The disappearance of Air France Flight 477 and its 228 passengers over the Atlantic Ocean this week has critics of radar-based air traffic control calling on the U.S. and other countries to hasten the move to GPS-based networks that promise to precisely track all planes. Current radars are obsolete more than 200 miles from land. "The technology's there — we've had this stuff for 15 years and little's happened," said Michael Boyd, a Colorado-based airline analyst. "My BlackBerry can be used to track me, so why can't we do it with planes?" U.S. officials have discussed setting up such a network since the 1990s and the technology is being tested in parts of the country, including Alaska and off the Gulf Coast. A few carriers, like Southwest, already use GPS to help planes make quicker landings that burn less fuel.

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#3 "Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights" by edignan on 06/04/2009 12:49 PM (score 5)
#14 "Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights" by Anonymous Poster on 06/05/2009 4:40 PM (score 2)

edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#1 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/04/2009 11:41 AM
	It is almost hard to know where to start correcting the inaccuracies - this is why I am always so happy when the press stays the hell away from my industry. I'll start with equally sweeping statements: There isn't an airplane carrying revenue passengers over the ocean that doesn't fly a GPS guided Flight Management System. GPS doesn't actually have a damned thing to do with it, since it isn't and wasn't ever a matter of whether the aircraft knew where it was. GPS will not solve the problem, since you don't use a receiver to transmit. Any position solution the aircraft had (be it inertial reference, Loran, GPS, or paper chart and star shots) would have been better than what we had, but the key is to get the position transmitted. The routine position reports from aircraft in over water flights (roughly once an hour) are made by voice and DO include position. (It is even probably a GPS position). The easiest fix at almost no cost is make pilots call in more often. But it only narrows the search area, once the catastrophic HAS happened, the pilot will NOT be calling in, his position will constantly be changing as he (or she) struggles to keep the craft in flight, and the longer that fight goes on the farther from flight plan the aircraft will be. __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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ahuha Power-User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: united states, california san francisco bay area native Posts: 382 Good Answers: 8	#2 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/04/2009 12:47 PM
	most " modern " aircraft in commercial aviation , " the Big Boys ".. the a/c has what is known as " acars ".. auto crew reporting sys " the Rolls Royce engines use a system called " fadac "..i forget all of that acronym.. but it monitors and reports the engine parameters... the avionics suite is reported real time already..on most a/c this system uses the a/c #3 vhf comm channel.. and as edginan already stated , the a/c knew where it was... , now, suppose, that a single lightning strike entered the a/c via a static port..the path to the avionics bay , " lower 41 ", would be unopposed..most only have a water trap filter between the static port and the componets... i am not saying this happened... but these " methods " to ensure that this can't happen again.. well,... imho : to try to isolate this event as systemic to aviation safety is truly a knee jerk reaction made by people who don't understand all of the factors , forces at work . __________________ give the hardest job to the laziest person & they'll find the easiest way to do it
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edignan

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Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights

06/04/2009 12:49 PM

Just couldn't resist, please bear with me:

Dear AP,

It is a rare thing for me to get irritated enough to write to an editor, but the overwhelming number of inaccuracies, half-truths and complete misdirection provided by this piece of doggerel is beneath even the technically challenged editor.

Get lost in the woods and a cell phone in your pocket can help camping buddies find you

Only partially true at best, lost in the woods one is rarely within range of a cell tower, and what do ground based cell towers have to do with over-ocean flights?

Current radars are obsolete more than 200 miles from land.

Current radars are not obsolete, they are physically limited by physics.

"My BlackBerry can be used to track me, so why can't we do it with planes?"

Because your Blackberry uses cell towers? Again, not many of these floating in the ocean.

And here is why the previous innacuracies matter:

A few carriers, like Southwest, already use GPS to help planes make quicker landings that burn less fuel.

There isn't an airplane carrying revenue passengers over the ocean that doesn't fly a GPS guided Flight Management System. (Sweeping generalizations really ought to be verified)

See where you got lost by equating GPS for navigation with the ability to communicate that position from the aircraft to the ground? And we are still several paragraphs away from mentioning the satellite system this article is supposed to be about.

GPS doesn't actually have a thing to do with it, since it isn't and wasn't ever a matter of whether the aircraft knew where it was.

"For 100 dollars, you can run down and buy a GPS system, put it in your car and know exactly where you are. But planes don't have it."

An out and out lie, what aircraft do not have is an automated reporting system to transmit that information to the ground.

Instead, controllers often estimate a plane's location based on flight plans and departure times.

Boyd here happily ignores the routine reporting along the flight path that pilots do. Usually about once an hour, on the radio to the groundbased flight following stations.

pilots usually have to resort to calling controllers with estimated positions every hour or so.

Pilots do not actually "resort" to calling in – it is and has been the standard proceedure for position reporting since the first flight with a radio crossed the Atlantic. So one does not fail to a position of voice reporting, the pilot absolutely knows he will use voice reporting starting at approximately 150 miles out.

GPS proponents say

Damn, how did we get back to GPS proponents? Does that presume GPS Opponents?

satellite-based air traffic systems

Ahhh, this is the system the article was supposed to be about

Such systems would collect information from around the globe and allow for real-time weather maps to appear on cockpit displays,

The onboard weather radar appearing on flightdeck displays is not real time? The many, many downlink satellite systems out there would be a nice addition, since as we have determined, radar has limitations.

"The point is if we have GPS to monitor airplanes, could it save lives?" Boyd said. "The answer is clearly yes."

This source, again, seems willing to ignore what he knows to tell you what you want for an exciting article. We have already discussed that over-water aircraft (and actually almost all commercial aircraft) are already in possession of GPS systems, they always know where they are, and getting that information to the ground is absolutely independent of GPS, but is the actual gap in technology we suffer from, and was supposed to be the focus of this article.

And as a complete aside, the term cockpit, was shelved years ago for the more gender neutral term Flight Deck. As i think you will find reference to in the AP Style Guide.

__________________
"If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"

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English Rose Guru Join Date: May 2005 Location: In the Garden Posts: 3389 Good Answers: 75	#4 In reply to #3 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 8:27 AM
	A masterpiece. Good job you wrote it before reading MP!!! __________________ Chaos always wins because it's better organised.
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#5 In reply to #4 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 8:32 AM
	I could'a crammed it into iambic pentameter - think it would make a stronger impression that way? Quatrains maybe? __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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English Rose Guru Join Date: May 2005 Location: In the Garden Posts: 3389 Good Answers: 75	#6 In reply to #5 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 9:32 AM
	I don't think that your intended audience would have appreciated it! __________________ Chaos always wins because it's better organised.
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#7 In reply to #6 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 9:49 AM
	SF newspaper actually has the original article in full. It was way better (props to the actual writer) before the version I read was hashed to fit somewhere - but still the technical gaps are aggregious. __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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Ron Guru Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 824 Good Answers: 37	#8 In reply to #3 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 3:04 PM
	GA! So, has AP received this; more importantly, has the Associated Press responded to it? Aviation, especially when an accident or other significant problem is involved, is one of those topics about which local editors and authors should be FORBIDDEN to disseminate stories until after someone who actually understands the concept of flight has vetted them detail by detail. They might miss a scoop by half an hour, but there would be at least some credibility to the resulting reporting. We could probably start a thread enumerating other topics of this class. Let's see: perpetual motion / over-unity, any "breakthrough" by a backyard inventor in energy or transportation, finding of unique fossils, any medical breakthrough which is expected to lead to a drug coming on the market within 10 years, discovering "secret" writings, finding simple cures or ways to prevent cancer [or any affliction from the common cold to obesity to diabetes to hair loss to . . .], "proof" that the world is about to end just as the Prophet _____ or the Ancient _____s predicted, and on and on. __________________ " Ignorance and arrogance have more in common than their last four letters. "
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#9 In reply to #8 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 3:09 PM
	Received it yes, responded mmm not so much I just try to keep this stuff in mind when they talk about industries I DON'T know anything about Large grains of salt sprinkled liberally! __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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Ron Guru Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 824 Good Answers: 37	#10 In reply to #9 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 3:16 PM
	My suspicions are thus confirmed in toto. __________________ " Ignorance and arrogance have more in common than their last four letters. "
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#11 In reply to #10 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 3:19 PM
	Awww, cmon - they've only had 24 hours And now that I've seen the many, many versions in various papers - while there are serious errors in the article, the cuttings done by the local papers did NOT help. __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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chrisg288 Guru Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada Posts: 5916 Good Answers: 204	#12 In reply to #3 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 3:51 PM
	Can they make an ejectable floating transmitter, which is ejected with sufficient g-force (crash) or manual trigger? This might be able to pinpoint the crash location better. If the floating device were able to transmit to satellite its coordinates, then the site could be identified before the currents have a chance to relocate the device. just wondering... Chris
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#13 In reply to #12 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 3:57 PM
	Came up over in the A300 discussion Military uses something similar on lots of over-water birds, no satellite uplink, but if it stays on the surface (it floats) you really don't need it. FDR / CVR in a floating airfoil package so it "flutters down". Manual switch in the flight deck, frangibles in the nose and belly. Works great, but you DO have to build the hole for it into the aircraft with necessary wiring etc. __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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Anonymous Poster	#14 In reply to #12 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 4:40 PM
	There would be quite a number of serious engineering problems. Fundamentally, you'd want it to contain all of the information that a current "black box" does, so the simplest approach would be to somehow make the black box itself float. This means making it bigger, since any inflating device is subject to such g-forces, shearing/bending/tensile loads as to eliminate reliability. Making it larger / lower density imposes structural integrity requirements that are difficult to meet. Every aircraft carrying one would need to set aside a larger volume for it. Oh - and most planes have TWO boxes, a Cockpit Voice Recorder and a Flight Data Recorder, in common terms. At the same time, you'd need to guarantee that all wiring would be easily separated, yet not be failure-prone during normal use. Manual triggering of separation is probably worthless when a plane comes apart or totally loses electrical function (as may have been the case here). The unit needs to be solidly attached to the airframe for safety during ordinary flight, yet must somehow become fully detached when desired. Frangible attachments (thanks, edignan!) would need to work despite the variety of possible forces, directions, and magnitudes involved; "direction" is 360 spherical degrees, for a start. Designing to prevent any chance that pieces of the airframe might be wrapped around the black box, and thus sink it, after breakup, collision, impact or other failure would be, ummm, interesting. At this level of study, I'd say that the current system involving internal "pingers" is far more reliable and cost effective, and is likely to remain so for a long time to come.
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Ron Guru Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 824 Good Answers: 37	#15 In reply to #14 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 4:50 PM
	THAT is interesting! Post #14 is mine, but shows as Guest (I can see the "Logged in as Ron" line, and it shows properly right now. I didn't check the anonymous post box, either . . .) Ron __________________ " Ignorance and arrogance have more in common than their last four letters. "
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#16 In reply to #14 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 5:03 PM
	Excellent analysis! Wish I knew who I just gave a GA - i~~f you are not registered sign up - we like brains around here.~~ Well Hi Ron. Imagine a tea tray sized device, wedge shaped on the "inside" away from the airstream, about 4" deep at thickest and 1" at thinnest. Hard pivot latches on the rear, spring loaded on the front. Front latch was sprung from manual, frangible (prev mention) or salt water detector on the face of the airfoil. Entire system was powered by the aircraft batteries, except the salt water detector path had internal battery that also ran a beacon on 121.5MHz. Had the minimal CVR/FDR (1960's tech on P-3s) contained within, blow off Cannon connectors (constant corrosion problem). Not bad for a bunch of analog guys __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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chrisg288 Guru Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada Posts: 5916 Good Answers: 204	#17 In reply to #14 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 5:06 PM
	I did think of having the black box recording system be part of my suggestion, however, when searchers can't even locate the site of the crash, and when there may be survivors, then getting to the site as quickly as possible becomes the top priority. I was aware of other possibilities, but chose the simplest idea for my question. Even floating flashing lights would help... better than nothing. Another idea for aircraft that lose power... parachutes or drogue chutes. the lower velocity that the vehicle crashes with means more lives saved.
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#18 In reply to #17 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 5:09 PM
	Like the drogues! With this crash I think we'd a been better off if it spit fields of flares Apparently some Spanish pilot thought he saw it. __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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Ron Guru Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wisconsin USA Posts: 824 Good Answers: 37	#22 In reply to #18 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 5:49 PM
	Parachutes work, and are already standard on some airplanes, but nothing remotely this large or fast (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_SR-22 for prime example, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Aircraft_Parachute_System for an overview). But if the airframe broke up, and/or the plane lost electricals, it would probably not have helped. The floating package from the Orion sounds like excellent work. Interesting that the P3 is being used to search for the missing Air France plane: http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=300e0e29-965b-46ef-af41-93ee314f5a24&Dynamic=1&Range=NOW&FromDate=06%2F01%2F2009&ToDate=06%2F05%2F2009&Category=%2Findex.cfm (by the way: I think that aero-news.net is the best easily accessed source of accurate aviation reporting. Usual disclaimer: no connection with them beyond being a subscriber). __________________ " Ignorance and arrogance have more in common than their last four letters. "
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#23 In reply to #22 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 5:58 PM
	I'll have to sign up (less they want my monies) I know the P-8 is in development, but I haven't heard anything like the legs or endurance you get out of props. P-3s routinely pulled 5,000 miles and 13 hours And since we are in two wars (on the dirt?) P-3s are flying their legs off. Initially doing MADD runs looking for anything big and heavy buried in the desert Don't think the new platform will do that. __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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chrisg288 Guru Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada Posts: 5916 Good Answers: 204	#24 In reply to #22 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 6:02 PM
	Excellent research.. thank you. GA. I was just thinking about slowing it down.. the technology exists I'm sure.
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ahuha Power-User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: united states, california san francisco bay area native Posts: 382 Good Answers: 8	#25 In reply to #22 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 6:20 PM
	thanks for the link: if one took into account the components of an aircraft.. fwd " flight deck and its associated " lower 41 " section.. the fwd production break... the wings and fueselage to the empennage.. to the aft production break .. then the aft production break ..aft galleys..lav's.. apu..that area .. weighed them.. configure the amount of chute required..lots of added weight though..means more fuel.. means higher ticket prices..people already think you should be able to fly from sfo to jfk in 5 hours for free...never mind that someone has to be able to pay for this stuff.. the skilled people to operate and maintain these systems..and that the people who do this work need to make a living.. not just exist. might be fine in straight and level flight.. but in high aoa or sever roll..or step dive and rolling..i dunn knowww in military a/c .. if a flat spin is encountered .. deploying the chute is on the checklist...and the method to detach the chute .. __________________ give the hardest job to the laziest person & they'll find the easiest way to do it
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ahuha Power-User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: united states, california san francisco bay area native Posts: 382 Good Answers: 8	#19 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 5:26 PM
	sonna bouy's..( or the concept of ) like on the Lockheed S - 3..didn't the P -3 have that .. besides the boom ? tied into acars .. only need 2... dispensed in a (2 ) minute interval...stick `em in the bulk cargo pit right by the outflow valve..should the outflow valve open at X altitude.. ( or above .. say4.5 psi d ) auto matic discharge...be great for over water equiped aircraft.. the life raft on a overwater a/c has a locator beacon in it.. if there were survivors and the raft made it ...you'd have the bouy's pinging away..and the raft as well.... __________________ give the hardest job to the laziest person & they'll find the easiest way to do it
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#20 In reply to #19 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 5:34 PM
	Good ideas...but I still like flares - flares are more fun Nothing says HELP like a flare __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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ahuha Power-User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: united states, california san francisco bay area native Posts: 382 Good Answers: 8	#21 In reply to #20 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/05/2009 5:40 PM
	or we just won the Cup !! __________________ give the hardest job to the laziest person & they'll find the easiest way to do it
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ahuha Power-User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: united states, california san francisco bay area native Posts: 382 Good Answers: 8	#29 In reply to #20 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/09/2009 12:54 AM
	why not both : makes a great night light show :.. tied into the launch of the 1st drone , (nte : 1 meter in length , folding wings .. oh, heck , cruise missile models..packed full of locater beacon. downloaded real time until the launch & 2 ~ 5 minutes fuel. (possible to manage the fuel burn to maximize glide slope ? ) ).deployed under 10k feet..?? .i bet the area would support 25 ~ 35 flares.spread over 120 seconds..? survivors need light to land..( & find the rafts ) ... self contained battery back, ( same battery pack as the emergency lighting system ?) no go item.. located aft of the psi vessel.. GA __________________ give the hardest job to the laziest person & they'll find the easiest way to do it
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PWSlack Guru Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on. Posts: 32175 Good Answers: 839	#26 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/08/2009 7:52 AM
	Any electronic tracking system won't state where the aircraft is. It will only state where the aircraft last was before the system stopped working! <...Drive into a ditch and GPS in your car lets emergency crews pinpoint the crash site....> Same as above. And if the GPS gets damaged/unserviceable by impact or by fire? And since when has it been mandatory to have a GPS fitted to any vehicle? And since when did vehicle movements get monitored continuously by an incident tracker? WALOOB __________________ "Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
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ahuha Power-User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: united states, california san francisco bay area native Posts: 382 Good Answers: 8	#27 In reply to #26 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/08/2009 8:28 AM
	thats very true, the 1st report i heard , the flight was 5 hours over due,.. but , if we knew when the acars started xmitting error codes ,stopped xmitting data , time wise; knew the flight plan, knew when the emergency locator beacons were discharged, might that not narrow the search zone ? the " sonna buoys " were just the idea i was trying to convey, to eject a locator device when things start to exceed the limits , 120 seconds is a long time in those cirumstances..24 msg prior to " acars " stopped .. maybe thats not 120 seconds..but my thought when acars generates the 1st failure msg, pop goes the 1st locator beacon, then 120 seconds later the 2nd beacon gets deployed , if it can be. should the beacon design be so that it " soars " , " glides " on a predetermined flight , " glide slope " , depending on the altitude it gets deployed at, or gets treated like a flare, hanging on a chute to float down , get drawn by the prevailing winds,... just some more thoughts.. __________________ give the hardest job to the laziest person & they'll find the easiest way to do it
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edignan Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Borrego Springs Posts: 2636 Good Answers: 62	#28 In reply to #26 Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights 06/08/2009 8:39 AM
	WALOOB Well so much for web internationalization And why the dickens are general bollocks negative yet dog bollocks are positive? And don't tell me to ask the dog __________________ "If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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#3 "Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights" by edignan on 06/04/2009 12:49 PM (score 5)
#14 "Re: Common GPS Could Help Better Track Airline Flights" by Anonymous Poster on 06/05/2009 4:40 PM (score 2)

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ahuha (6); Anonymous Poster (1); chrisg288 (3); edignan (12); English Rose (2); PWSlack (1); Ron (4)

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