Challenge Questions Blog

Challenge Questions

Stop in and exercise your brain. Talk about this month's Challenge from Specs & Techs or similar puzzles.

So do you have a Challenge Question that could stump the community? Then submit the question with the "correct" answer and we'll post it. If it's really good, we may even roll it up to Specs & Techs. You'll be famous!

Answers to Challenge Questions appear by the last Tuesday of the month.

Previous in Blog: Virtual Galactic again!   Next in Blog: Cosmic Challenge
Close
Close
Close
18 comments
Rate Comments: Nested

Air Compressor: Newsletter Challenge (06/06/06)

Posted June 06, 2006 7:00 AM

The question as it appears in the 06/06 edition of Specs & Techs from GlobalSpec:

As you and a friend are working on cleaning out your garage, you come across your old air compressor and see that it is still charged with high pressure air from the last time you were using it. You tell your friend that you can extract either hot or cold air (relative to ambient) from the tank at high flow rates without using any external power at all. Your friend thinks you're crazy and bets you $50 that you can't do it. You proceed to prove him wrong, and you win the bet. How did you do it?

Click here to view previous Challenge Questions.

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#1

PV=nRT

06/06/2006 10:08 AM

I think that is what you need. It all revolves around pressure, volume, and differential pressure as you move air from one chamber to the next.

The cold air is easy, since you get that when you open the valve to the tank as a high pressure gas escapes into a lower pressure environment. The temperature of the gas drops as per the PV=nRT equation.

However, I am not clear how to raise the temperature of the exhaust gas. You need to compress the gas to increase its temperature. Normally this happens when the compressor starts running by compressing the air in the room into the tank (low pressure to high). Maybe if you drain the tank and start the compressor or disconnect the output of the compressor and you should get warm air directly from the compressor when it runs.

Reply
Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6
#6
In reply to #1

Re:PV=nRT

06/06/2006 8:57 PM

If the air is allowed to vent into a much smaller volume the pressure would raise in this smaller volume very rapidly and according to the law PV=nRT, the temperature would rise. I saw this all the time when using high flow dispensing equipment to fill natural gas fuel cylinders on vehicles. Once the temperature of the gas and tank settles to room temperature, the pressure would be relative to the volume filled based upon PV=nRT. If you wanted to fill the smaller tank to a specific pressure, you could calculate the elevated pressure to fill the tank and compensate for the desired "settled" pressure at room temperature. Basic physics. M Hyatt Technical Consultants Denver, CO.

__________________
MJHyatt - Technical Consultants
Reply
Participant

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1
#16
In reply to #1

Re:PV=nRT

06/09/2006 4:33 PM

Expansion will cool the air a little, but for really cold air make it do work, such as routing it through an air tool. No air tools? Then fill a bucket half full of something (pecans?)and insert hose in the bucket such that the air will move the objects (ie-do work on the objects). The air will be cooler than just expansion alone.

Reply
Commentator
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: H Town, TX
Posts: 74
Good Answers: 1
#2

Vortex Tube

06/06/2006 3:29 PM

Make a vortex tube

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 394
Good Answers: 1
#12
In reply to #2

Re:Vortex Tube

06/07/2006 8:30 AM

Yes, a vortex tube is known technology that will split the compressed air into a hot and a cold stream. It is used to provide spot cooling to do such things as dry the compressed air stream (by cooling to condense out water), or cooling suited up workers in environments such as paint booths.

Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Clemson, South Carolina
Posts: 1722
Good Answers: 18
#13
In reply to #12

Re:Vortex Tube

06/07/2006 10:18 AM

Yep. Our machine shop has been using vortex tubes for years to blow cold air on cutting tools and stuff they're cutting.

And I'm sure that everyone has a vortex tube lurking around near the air compressor, if you can find a friend to help you clean out your garage, just so you can impress him (her) with a bit of magic.

__________________
We have met the enemy and he is us . . . Walt Kelly
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#3

Hot air

06/06/2006 3:45 PM

Cold air is straightforward as already described by anonymous hero. If you can use a long enough tube, the fast-moving cold air will warm towards ambient. Slowing the air by using a widening taper will warm the air further, to become warmer than ambient. Of course, this doesn't strictly meet the specification of "no external power", as the air stream is being heated by the surrounding air. Mixing ambient air using the ventura effect and then allowing that to slow would work as well, but suffers from the same problem. I suppose we could wind metal tube round the compressor, so that at least some of required heat was taken from the compressor itself...

Reply
Participant

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1
#18
In reply to #3

Re: Hot air

11/08/2006 11:39 AM

I have a laser diamond cutter that uses a compressor which blows directly on the diamond. I need to keep the compressed air at room temperature or above. Is there any way, including adding some type of equipment, to control air temperature?

Reply
Participant

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3
#4

Hot Air

06/06/2006 5:06 PM

Use a Hilsch tube.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5826
Good Answers: 322
#10
In reply to #4

Re:Hot AND Cold Air

06/07/2006 2:15 AM

Did you mean Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_tube

__________________
If you spend all your time looking for people and things to complain about: trust me, you will find plenty to complain about.
Reply
Participant

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3
#14
In reply to #10

Re:Hot AND Cold Air

06/07/2006 10:56 AM

Yes. The thing that Wikipedia left out is that the Germans found Ranque's notes as they overran France. Hilsch did further work and improved it, but he didn't invent anything. There also was a guy named Von Brimen or something--he was a movie double for Edward G. Robinson--who claimed 40 or so years ago that he had perfected it and had a high efficiency/low pressure design. He offered it to Detroit for auto air conditioning but never reached an agreement.

Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11
#5

Hot Air

06/06/2006 6:32 PM

A momentary compression of the air is enough to heat it. A conical oil funnel and a rag may work just fine. Place the large end of the funnel at the compressor outlet seal it the best you can with the rag and open the valve. Just as long as the air at the compressor outlet is traveling faster than the air leaving the small end of the funnel you'll have hot air! Kids! Don't try this at home without an adult present. You may shoot your eye out!

__________________
"Praise no day until evening, no sword until tested, no ice until crossed, no ale until drunk."
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 136
#7

Hah! I knew this would come in handy

06/06/2006 11:35 PM

I used to work in a gas station - you know the place where "they" filled your car and did everything.

To show cold air, let some out at him from a distance (greater than 2 mm).

To show hot air, press the nozzle on his hand and let air out as it presses on his hand to escape it will heat up and feel warm (because it is) to him.

Games you can play with the air hose.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1782
Good Answers: 45
#15
In reply to #7

Re:Hah! I knew this would come in handy

06/07/2006 3:28 PM

If you want to do something dangerous like this - use your own hand.

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 117
Good Answers: 2
#8

Harper's Ferry

06/07/2006 12:16 AM

IIRC one of the plant engineers at the armory in Harper's Ferry was perplexed over the fact that whenever an air supply line ran to a T fitting with different sized outlet pipes the smaller oulet pipe would always feel warmer than the larger outlet pipe whenever the machines attached to each of the outlet pipes were drawing air at the same time. Anyway he tinkered with the idea for a while and may have patented a tool or device. At any rate the patent would have expired by 1900. In the 1970's you could buy a tool called a choke tester that was simply an improved version. Attached to shop air, one end would blow hot enough air to open a carburetor bimetal choke spring or conversely blow cold enough air to close the choke back up. You could open and close seat heater thermostats, chill an interior temperature thermistor enough to inhibit A/C function, heat/cold stress test small electronic components in difficult to otherwise access locations without worrying about collateral damage from a heat gun, for example. All in all, a pretty useful concept.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Queensland Coalfields Australia.
Posts: 697
Good Answers: 11
#9
In reply to #8

Re:Harper's Ferry

06/07/2006 12:22 AM

How about applying air pressure to the "small" end of a double acting air cylinder, the ambient air in the other end will heat up upon compression.

Reply
Participant

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1
#11

Air Compressor Phenom

06/07/2006 8:11 AM

With the air compressor off, simply open drain valve and the compressed air will be cooler.Due to the build-up of condensation in the bottom of the tank. Whenever air is compressed,it will cause this condensation build up. Open an air hose connected to the outlet and the air will be warmer. When releasing the air thru the outlet ( by use of an air hose), this will not collect the condensation at the bottom of the tank, therfore the air will be warmer.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#17

Use Hilsch Vortex Tube

07/13/2006 8:52 AM

This device can separate gas into two streams, one hot and one cold, by spinning it quickly. Cold air comes from the middle, and hot gas from the outside. This site has a picture and explanation http://www.visi.com/~darus/hilsch/

Reply
Reply to Blog Entry 18 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Hero (1); Anonymous Poster (2); Biff Dink Doink (1); Bill (1); bmargolis (1); closetmensan (1); Emjay4119 (1); etopro (2); horace40 (1); Howetwo (1); jdst (1); jrose (1); mjhyatt (1); Randall (1); sadibo (1); wrench (1)

Previous in Blog: Virtual Galactic again!   Next in Blog: Cosmic Challenge

Advertisement