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Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 8:41 AM

Say a I have a molecule of Iron, heated slowly until it is flaming red.

How would electrons react to the increase of temperature? How is photons produce from its dynamics- were there electrons spent in making a photon or was it the electromagnetic effect of electron dynamics? Say, i put a voltage potential across it, how would it affect hole-electron current?

Or what if I cool it down nearing absolute zero, how would it affect the flow of charge? Is there any unlikely effect in between dissimilar unique materials?

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#1

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 8:57 AM

The concept of temperature does not apply to a single molecule.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:08 AM

why? Say a mono-atomic gas.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:18 AM

Temperature is the motion of atoms or molecules in relation to other atoms or molecules. Temperature of one atom or molecule is sort of like one hand clapping.

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#11
In reply to #5

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:33 AM

I reckon heat capacities was computed per atom basis. I'd like to know, the dynamics in the electron premise. I bet this would explain thermal expansion and conductivity or resistivity of any materials.

It's one of the questions in mind, i can not explain still. Like how would it affect protons and neutrons in the nucleus.

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#23
In reply to #11

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 11:15 AM

The protons and neutrons in the nucleus live in their own little world. Heating a substance has zero effect on them.

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#24
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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 11:20 AM

Lol. Nice one.

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#34
In reply to #1

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 10:13 AM

Temperature as we commonly use the term does not apply ti a single molecule or atom. However, atoms do have a 'temperature' of sorts.

Let me rephrase the OP's question into a form that makes sense: (corrected sections are underlined)

"Say I have a molecule of Iron, and I bombard it with low energy photons, in the Infrared range.

How would electrons react to the increased energy levels from the photons? How are photons released from these dynamics- were electrons spent in releasing a photon or was it the technobabble about something I don't understand? Say I put a voltage potential across it, how would it react to the nearby charges?

Or what if I place it in a blackbody container to absorb all the IR photons it releases, how would it affect the flow of current, assuming it was part on an electrical circuit? Is there any unlikely effect in [????]?"

Now that the question is properly asked, it can be answered. (The following is directed to the OP.)

Your first paragraph asks two separate questions, what happens to a molecule as it 'heats up,' and how does this affect the molecule's resistance in an electric circuit.

To answer the first question: As atoms are struck by photons, they absorb the energy, which causes an electron to 'jump' to a higher orbit. There are typically several orbital layers in each shell, the exact count varies by the shell number and the possible presence of higher number shells above it. When an electron has been excited to a higher orbit, it may eject a photon and descend back down to a lower orbit. The difference between the orbits jumped between determines the energy level (frequency) of the photon released. electrons are neither produced nor consumed in the exchange of photons, they merely change orbits.

If an electron in the outermost shell is excited far enough, it may 'semi-disengage' from the atom and become a 'free' electron. Under normal circumstances, the electron will quickly re-integrate with the atom, shedding the excess energy as photons, but if an atom is being constanly bombarded with photons (being 'heated') then a new electron will become 'free' soon after the old one has been re-integrated.

To answer the second question, electrical current requires conductive atoms, atoms with outer shells that are less than half full. Insulators, on the other hand have outer shells that are MORE than half full, an atom with an EXACTLY half-full outer shell is a semi-conductor, and it can act as a conductor or an insulator, depending on the local conditions(1). Iron, is a Conductor, so it allows the flow of electrons, electrical charges can pull an electron away, and it will snag a nearby electron to replace the lost one. Current is the flow of electrons from atom to atom, the 'warmer' an atom is, the more likely it is to have a 'free' electron, these 'free' electrons interfere with the normal atom to atom transfer of electrons, as their high energy level tends to repel 'traveling' electrons, which reduces the conductivity, or increases the resistance, depending on how you want to phrase it.

The second paragraph has two understandable question, and one side order of 'word salad.'

To answer the first part: as you remove photons, and prevent new photons from being absorbed, the electrons begin to jump lower, and lower, and lower in their orbits. In theory this could continue until an electron touches the nucleus, at which point one of a number of things could happen, since we've never been able to get atoms that 'cold' yet to see for ourselves, the electron could 'sit' on the nucleus, it could merge with a proton and form a neutron, or the atom could fission from the stress.

To answer the second question, as an atom 'cools,' it is less and less likely to have a 'free atom' and the 'traveling electrons' can more easily jump from atom to atom.

To respond to the third part, "What the huh?"

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 10:34 AM

Forgot my footnote:

  1. Hydrogen and Helium are the 'oddball' elements, since their only shell holds only two electrons. Hydrogen acts as a Conductor, not a semiconductor, and Helium is a Noble Gas, despite not having 8 electrons in its outer shell. Aside from those two, it's best to remember that with Outer Shells:
    • 1-3 electrons = Conductor
    • 4 electrons = Semiconductor
    • 5-7 electrons = Insulator
    • 8 electrons = Noble Gas
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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 11:35 AM

OK thanks. Hope Klulas understands it

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 11:43 AM

I am betting money that 'K' will respond,..... with another question.

Odds maker in Vegas has it and 1.7 to 1

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 12:14 PM

Well, you know that Hope brand springs never wear out. That's why they say "Hope Springs, Eternal." Right?

(I GOTTA try to be funny today, I'm having one of those 'Pagliacci' moods for some reason.)

(Look it up, I'm in no mood to explain the joke this time.)

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#41
In reply to #36

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 10:26 PM

Wow, it felt like a crash course. I thank you both for sharing.

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#42
In reply to #36

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/22/2015 12:03 AM

And I almost thought you meant to write klueless!

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#43
In reply to #42

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/22/2015 4:44 AM

You got it in one! I can't imagine I'm the first one to think of that!

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#39
In reply to #34

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 4:28 PM

GA.

GA for the whole thing, but this phrase alone was worth a GA: "... and one side order of 'word salad.' "

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#2

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:04 AM

READ A BOOK!

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#4

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:10 AM

Fe is an element.

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#6

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:18 AM

Reported as trolling.

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#8
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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:24 AM

More like illiterate drivel or babbling of an idiot.

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#9
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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:28 AM

Agreed, but everybody needs to report this doofus until he is banished.

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#10
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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:31 AM

I'm in.

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#12
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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:37 AM

What is up with you guys? Is it not tolerated in the forum to ask question, you do not know? Are you even offended with that?

What did I do?

I always feel that you are into the research business, that you are protecting yourselves from rivals or what?

Are you the owner of this forum, to act like one, you and Tornado? - Or are your working with a big brother? or what?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:40 AM

I can only speak for myself.......you ask annoying questions without doing a second of research, study up before looking for someone else to chase down your hare-brained ideas and theories

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#14
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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:48 AM

Seem like an analogy that I burdened you 3, --simple just do not answer, if you don't want to.

I have question why not ask? Am I violating CR4? Or people protecting info?

Great I only got specific question, but seem I ricochet to a different platform, I am not interested into.

Wow. I have great insights on you, guys.

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#15
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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:58 AM

Tornado, Fred and I and others are just members, that is all. As members, we are entitled to our considered opinions.

Many people come here and ask reasonable, intelligent questions, ask for help with a technical problem and even work related problems.

Students also come here and ask for help. If they are forthcoming about their motives many members spend LOTS of their valuable time helping them.

Tornado is a very intelligent man and also offers help to many who come here with genuine problems, even those who need homework help.

Then, there are the trolls. They come here to amuse themselves at the expense of the forum members who are serious about the forum and its value.

They waste member's time by asking inane, ignorant and uninformed questions, not to learn, but rather to amuse themselves by watching responses to their childish trolling.

They never bother to perform any research using the usual, widely accepted practice of an internet search. Or, by reading easily available publications in existence already. If they did 99% of their elementary questions could be answered that way.

You are such a troll! You are simply wasting the forum's time and resources playing your silly games.

My considered opinion is that you should be banned.

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#17
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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 10:08 AM

Now, are you entitled or obliged to answer? Nope? - then why care? - disregard, putting others right on your own opinion -- you simply have no right for it. You are a not their representative, others do not want to be represented.

You are not yourself. Can you tell a difference?

If you do not like, do not buy - a simple thing, you learn from elementary class.

Did my question says? Lyn, Tornado, Fredski pls. answer? If not, bug off.

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#16
In reply to #12

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 10:07 AM

I have discussed this before, the subject of politeness on the forum. I understand your concern, but it is a frequent occurrence that students come looking for answers without studying and others come looking for help without doing any homework, like consulting a handbook or searching online, like we do. Lyn, Tornado, Fred ski and a few others are very regular contributors so after seeing this kind of lack of initiative they get testy. Yes, they might be more polite....but you might return the expected courtesy by formulating a sensible question. You did not. Your question showed that you do not yet grasp certain fundamentals of science, namely the concept of temperature and the impossibility of saying with any certainty what an individual particle will do under given conditions of changing external energy states. So please understand, we love to give answers that help and show off what we've learnef, but at least show us some respect by thinking it through before you post.

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 10:11 AM

Now, can you tell the difference.?

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#25
In reply to #12

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 1:39 PM

What's with it you ask?

you seem to ask other questions before your previous question is even addressed.

It gives us the impression your all over the board with questions... without first trying to find the answer yourself.

nothing wrong with questions, but try to find the answer yourself first, THAT is the best stimulus to actually learn. Before trying to get others to do it for you.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 1:57 PM

I'll leave you with two of my favorite quotes, to be applied wherever appropriate.

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." George Carlin.

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." W. C. Fields.

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#31
In reply to #25

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 8:41 PM

I would not dare to ask if I got the answer already. Would you? Everything is interconnected-it's my belief. Asking on different angles helps solve the puzzle, the faster and reliable.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 6:57 AM

I understand what you are saying,..... but do you have a goal, or are you going to compile the answers first?

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#7

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 9:22 AM

best of luck on your promising career, these might help

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#19

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 10:30 AM

I think I understand what you are asking.

Let's look at on the atomic scale. When an atom emits a photon it is due to a change in its electron orbital energy state. More specifically, when an electron changes its orbital from a higher energy state to a lower one, energy must be conserved, so it emits a photon to do this.

Photons are simply carriers of energy. Their frequency determines how much energy a photon carries. Red is relatively lower energy than white or violet.

The electrons in the atom are not consumed to produce photons, it is simply a change in the state of the electron's orbitals that either absorb energy or emit energy in the form of photons.

So, when you heat up atoms their electrons absorb some of that thermal (kinetic) energy and briefly change to a higher orbital state. Then they drop back down to their ground state and release a photon equivalent in energy to change from that higher orbital state to its ground state.

You can learn more from a high school physics or chemistry book. It is covered in fairly good detail there.

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 10:42 AM

I appreciate your good composure and wisdom as always, ever since. Few are like you here.

1) Shockhiscan

2) Rixter

3) Redfred

4) Jraef

5) Gringogreg

6) Crabtree

others I forgot to mention.

Pls. forgive us, unexpectedly turning the post comments sour.

Anyhow, thank you for your reply.

follow up question not found in books - where i have insight and i could only imagine the answers but I do not considered it valid, unless otherwise have an expert view on the topic.

What if thermal energy surpass the limit that electron wont have enough orbitals to transfer, what happens? Does the material melt of disintegrate? What's your thought on this?

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#28
In reply to #21

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 4:04 PM

Well, it doesn't just burst. It takes a lot of energy to tear apart an atom. You have a better chance of stripping off electrons (ionization), but actually breaking the nucleus apart is another matter. You can look up the binding energy of a nucleus to get an idea how much that is.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions and I encourage you to do so, but given some of the nature of your questions I might suggest this website called Khan Academy.

If you haven't seen this I think this will be a most gratifying link for you.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 8:34 PM

Yes, thank you. I came across one of their partial differential tutorials in youtube. I do not know they have a website of resource. This is great.

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#29
In reply to #21

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 7:32 PM

Another thing to think about is the relative sizes of and distances between the individual particles of an atom.

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#20

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 10:32 AM

This gets into some very complicated solid state and material science theory but I'll try to reduce this to some of the critical fundamentals.

The topic your asking about is known as black-body radiation. Gustav Kirchoff (yes, that Kirchoff of network circuit theory) was the first to identify and name black-body radiation as a broad spectrum of light emitted from an object based on its temperature. Kirchoff did not know how the lattice electrons of a solid achieved this spectrum of light, just that a repeatable spectrum shape identified the objects temperature. That window of knowledge of the mechanics producing this spectrum shape was opened by the revelations and convoluted mathematics of quantum mechanics. I believe it was Max Planck who performed the first collection of theoretical derivations.

This is not a topic that can be easily explained in a thread on an engineering forum. A solid foundation in undergraduate Physics is needed to properly discuss this topic. As I have mentioned before, you ask some very good questions that are obviously way outside your skill set to provide a good answer.

The short but not very sweet answer to your question is that the electrons randomly take kinematic energy from the nucleus and get bumped up into an unoccupied orbital of the lattice. When the electron drops again back down to the lower "rest state" orbital a photon of that energy is released.

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 10:45 AM

It really started on solar cell topic, now it just got bigger.

Yap, I did read the link I got from you before - the lecture notes on Solid State Theory. Thank you. --but still can't just digest all. I wanted to learn the basic toddlers reflex other than running directly in bare feet.

I always admired kids - they ask silly questions but always seem the fundamentals.

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#40
In reply to #22

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/21/2015 4:38 PM

Those toddlers fall down a lot, bump their heads a lot, bruise their knees a lot, too. But they keep doing it until they don't.

Many things are learned like that.

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#27

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 3:16 PM

Lol, I have never seen so many off topic comments in one thread. And this one will probably add to the list. But that's okay, because I think the original question should be on that list too. As I said originally, Iron is an element. So as soon as he said "say I have a molecule of Iron" that should have been the end of the discussion.

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#32
In reply to #27

Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/20/2015 8:46 PM

Yes, seem natural after all. If you run through all my posts..I always got one off-topic every time. If I were single and he is a she, i bet I marry that guy. He is an opposition, but in reality, I think he is a sweet person.-- i seldom mistaken with my intuition.

I guess, he is one fanatic of mine, right Lyn? --I would buy an ice cream, if he does rate me once, a GA, but he never did, not even once.

He's fingers are stuck with "off topic" button hahaha.

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Re: Electron Dynamics vs. Heat

08/26/2015 2:43 PM
  • An isolated atom of iron cannot conduct electricity, as it would be surrounded by vacuum. In order to conduct electricity, it has to be attached to other conductive species in the form of a crystal lattice. The concept of applying a voltage across a single atom is absurd.
  • A photon is emitted whenever an electron in a higher orbit drops to its standard orbit, having been moved previously into the higher orbit by heating.
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