House Wiring Has Me Puzzled!

Yes. I had to have the electrical company come out to check this on my last home. One of the incoming leads had a ground to it causing the same problem. They fixed it at no charge to me, never had the problem again. cost you nothing to get them out there so can't hurt to ask.

Well first of all your wiring is undersized....#14 romex has been outlawed down here in Fl...You always want to oversize your wire a little for safety...so #12 romex would be the minimum....secondly the breaker has been damaged and needs to be replaced, I would go with a 20A circuit for the load you have, minimum...I might mention here that space heaters should ideally be on a dedicated circuit, no other loads...You can run a separate circuit through the attic or basement then up or down the wall to the receptacle and eliminate that receptacle from the chain, making it dedicated...This would maintain your present 15A circuit(with a new breaker) for everything but the heater which would then be on a 20A dedicated circuit....adding a 20A breaker in the breaker box can be tricky if you have no room, this would call for a pro, but if you have an unused circuit space it's not so hard....the receptacle should also be changed as suggested....

http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/basic_house_wiring.htm

Hi Solar,

Here in CA, all we have is #14 romex in our homes.

I have a solution to the space heater problem - I'm going to buy a 750W model for the room and toss the 1500W heater.

I still have the circuit problem. The breaker does have 117V (read at the breaker output) when turned on and 0V when turned off, so I've eliminated the breaker being the problem. I'm not getting the 117V to the first outlet, so somewhere between the first outlet and the breaker there's an open circuit. I don't want to start tearing out the drywall, but I'm thinking that I'll need to do it. I did get some advice to call an electrician and he may know of some "trick" to find out where the problem is.

Interesting. I didn't think about the neutral at the breaker panel. Makes a lot of sense!

I want you to watch this vid. at about the 1 min mark you'll see an open box(light switch) this practice is also common in wall receptacle switch boxes. I suggest you methodically go from switch to switch, receptacle to receptacle and see if the chain in tighthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv0e_VEuZ8I

This is what I did when the circuit went dead the first night. The light switch had a bad wire nut connection. I trimmed a little of the wire off (it was too long) and put the wire nut back on. That's what fixed it the first time. The light switch was ahead of the outlet the heater was plugged into, so that made sense.

There are four switches in the circuit. One in the master bedroom, one in the master closet and two in the bathroom. That could be an easy fix, though I think those switches are not in line with the heater outlet, but it's worth a try.

Thanks for the tip.

I too have struck neutral problems more than once. Our wiring runs through our roof space in a typical bungalow type dwelling. It was only at night that i found my neutral problem. I saw a small blue glow in a particular spot. Looked again in daylight and saw a connector with 4 or five cables going into it. I unscrewed the connector and saw that all the conductors were blackened with verdigris. I cut the crap off and reconnected, all good after that. Another time my welder needed a lot more amps than i normally need to weld. I found that the wire to the house (4 twisted insulated cables) had a break in midair. It was the neutral and so everything still worked. The aircon would also have not worked if i had tried that. How do i know this? When the aircon was installed it took the installer several days of swapping out boards and soft starters to try to get it going. After the welder incident i took some binoculars and looked at the line in from the street again. Sure enough the neutral was broken at the junction box on the pole. Got the power company to replace the cable and lo! the aircon guy "fixed" the aircon. A big smile and a "You're good to go mate" and he was happy to be on his way. None the wiser!

Jim

Grsat idea to look for bkue arcing at night!

half size breakers

"Well first of all your wiring is undersized....#14 romex has been outlawed down here in Fl."

I need to remind all of you complaining about the wire gauge that 14Ga was the norm for 15A circuits for a long time and is accepted as grandfathered. New circuits need to be 12Ga.

The National Fire Protection Standard 70, the National Electric Code, 2014 edition (the latest) table 310.15(B)(16) "Conductors for General Wiring" states that your posting is incorrect:

I need to remind all of you complaining about the wire gauge that 14Ga was the norm for 15A circuits for a long time and is accepted as grandfathered. New circuits need to be 12Ga

The National Electric Code is the standard that most states have adopted for electricity and electrical construction and operations. It states that #14 has a maximum current of 15 amps and #12 has a maximum current of 20 amps. This applies to new and old electrical work

In residential electrical installation #14 is most often used for ceiling light fixtures and other dedicated lighting appliances. These circuits most often have low current requirements (one circuit @ 15a will power at least 16ez 100 watt bulbs)

#12 is used for receptacles since the units used in one circuit can often come close to or exceed 15 amps ( a 1500 watt portable heater and a television).

This usage of #14ga and #12ga has been that way for a very long time. Many years ago when I was in school I did electrician work for extra beer money. This is what we always used a long time ago. It many be grandfathered but BX and NM was used at that time.

14ga 15 amps......12ga 20 amps

Good Luck Old Salt

Od Salt is correct. I have read this in the code book. Thank you for clearing this up.

Most portable heaters are 750 as well as 1500w. Set it to a lower setting. And run it for a longer cycle. problem solved.... but don't forget about those outlets

Do you have a GFI on the circuit? Maybe an outside electrical box, even with exterior Christmas lights or an outside security light? Those can drive you nuts trying to reset, then after heating up and cooling down power is restored automatically. The heater would cycle with the setting on a thermostat so it will vary in load. Also the electrician may have connected a basement or attic line as well.

No GFCI or AFCI on the circuit. Outside electrical box is on a different breaker. I haven't had a chance to check the neutral at the box, but it sounds like that's where my problem is.

The bathroom shares the bedrooms' circuit? Codes usually require a separate one with GFI safety for outlets near a sink or tub/shower. Also the ceiling lights should be separate from the wall or floor outlets. Only in CA.....

Only the bathroom lights are on the same circuit. The bathroom outlets do have a GFCI and they are working fine. The vent fan is also out and it runs off a switch right next to the light switch (same double box).

Most likely you have a low energy arcing fault somewhere in the wiring closest to the breaker. You're forcing a lot of current to flow through too many series connections, and the one with the highest contact resistance is causing the problem.

As the current flow increases the faulty high resistance connection warms up, as it warms up the resistance goes up, as the resistance goes up the temperature goes up and the metal expands to the point where a tiny arc is struck between the last point of contact between the conductor and the termination. The heating continues until the contact point is vaporized and the circuit is broken, then everything cools down until contact is made as the metals shrink and finally make contact again, then the whole process repeats.

As you can probably sense, this is a very dangerous situation that requires immediate attention. If you like playing with fire you can buy a cheapo IR thermometer and start scanning your walls where you think the wire runs. If, and only if, you're extremely lucky and you can locate every box and/or wiring that runs close to the wall, your thermometer will locate the hot spot. You can also take an old AM transistor radio (remember those?) and place it near the wires and listen for the static to increase since the arcing creates RF energy in the AM band.

If your breaker panel will accept it, you can try putting an AFCI (Arcing Fault Circuit Interrupter) in that circuit until you hire an electrician. I'll bet it trips the first night after about an hour of full power operation. The big box stores sell them, and the NEC has recommended their use since 2008, now the 2014 Code requires them on circuits that feed a bedroom.

I came to the same conclusion. Right now the circuit is dead somewhere past the breaker. I get 117 v at the breaker, but 0 v at the first outlet. I have the breaker off for safety right now. I don't think I can trace it unless current is flowing. I was thinking of running a wire trace tool with the circuit breaker off. The kind you usually use to trace phone lines.

Autobroker-

You can eliminate the breaker and the buss bars as the problem or confirm that they are the problem. If there is a high resistance junction somewhere between the buss bar and the output wire from the breaker this will show it. It is not expensive to do nor does it take much time. The only things that are necessary are the volt meter and an electrician preferably or a person with the equivalent skills of an electrician. CAUTION- YOU WILL BE WORKING WITH A LIVE EXPOSED POWER SOURCE PART OF THE TIME!

Purchase a circuit breaker identical to the one in question. Also get a blank insert for the front of the panel. These are the plastic pieces that are used to cover the openings when a slot in the panel is not longer used. They are real cheap. Total investment for the breaker and the covers is less than $10.

Shut the main breaker off. Remove the panel cover exposing the breakers and the buss bars. Remove the old breaker and crocus cloth or fine emery the copper wire to remove any dirt or residual arcing/heating spots. Wipe any residual materials off. Change the location of the breaker on the buss bar(s) and leave the old location empty. Put the breaker back in and at the new location. Leave the breaker in the off position. Turn the main breaker on. With the branch breaker open check the voltage between the output or it and the neutral. This should be zero. Turn the branch breaker back on and check the voltage again. The meter should read 110-124 volts. If it reads low you have a problem with the buss bars and the contact with the circuit breaker. GET AN ELECTRICIAN.

Shut the branch breaker off and reconnect the wire to it. Turn it back on and measure the voltage at the head of the screw that holds the wire on. This should also read 110-124 volts. Next read the voltage from the neutral and the wire, not the screw on the breaker. It should also read 110-124 volts. If it doesn't there is a problem somewhere between the buss bars and the circuit wire. If it does, your problem is most likely within the wiring of the walls. CALL AN ELECTRICIAN.

WITHOUT THE POWER ON!! If any of the receptacles are back wired with the "push in" type connections take the wires out of the back connecters (sometimes requires a small straight blade screwdriver) and relocate them to the side screw connections. This will provide a good solid connection that will not have any resistance to lower or eliminate the voltage. If in doubt about anything of the receptacle replace it with a new one. When you buy them by the box of ten they are real inexpensive. When you get them also purchase a receptacle tester for about $5.00. When completed, test each receptacle with the receptacle tester.

Unless the wiring was installed really screwed up this method is the most likely, with highly favorable odds in your favor, the one to find the location and type of problem. Many of the other suggestions are fine for one particular section or part of the location of the problem. Some are downright dangerous. This method keeps your exposure to live circuits to a minimum and most of the work is done with the power off. If convenient the power can be turned back on to check each receptacle as it is completed. If that one doesn't solve the problem, shut the circuit power back off and go on to the next outlet. Since you are making positive contact with the side screw connections this method can also be done out of the order of the receptacles as the wiring goes away from the panel box.

Properly tightened wire nuts seldom cause resistance problems with copper wire. Also there shouldn't be any hidden junction boxes buried in the walls. If any wiring needs replaced there are methods that you can install replacement wires without tearing the walls all apart. This is a common thing to do with "old work".

Yes, the description of this diagnostic/repair procedure is lengthy in words. It is that way to clearly explain what to do and how to do it. The actual testing should take you much less time than it took me to keyboard this.

MAKE SURE YOU TURN OFF THE CIRCUIT BREAKER BEFORE WORKING ON EACH RECEPTACLE.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I think i understand what you are describing but i don't think it is necessary to go there yet. If he had a reading of line voltage at the General Purpose Outlets ( GPOs ) but the circuit could not carry a load, your procedure will find poor current carrying joins/devices. He has line voltage on the IN and on the OUT of the breaker but none on the first GPO. Hence the dilemma.

If Autobroker can restore at least a line voltage at all GPOs THEN current carrying capabilities may need to be explored. Things like terminals, wire and devices can all play a part in reducing current and causing fires. BUT, he has no power! No problem! Other than no power.

To confirm that there is both voltage and current at the out on the breaker i would suggest removing the plug on an extension cord and hard wiring it to the OUT of the breaker and plugging in a load/tool/heater etc. This will test that the breaker is able to carry a load and that the designated OUT really is OUT. From there the extension cord can be used to test continuity to the first outlet (by removing the socket/receptacle as well).

Jim

A tradesmans wage is about $a40K per year. I tell you this to get some scale. A simple circuit breaker that works on overload only costs $12 and a box of 10 twin receptacles cost $75. To call in an electrician costs $120 plus $90/hr or part thereof. So self diagnosis is important to me. I try to do as much myself as i am permitted by my license as i don't like paying another tradesman 4 times as much i am paid/hr.

P.S. i like your posts. There is often an interesting problem to solve/learn from.

Jim

Don't know where you are located other than "Where the sun sets on OZ" but the rate of $40K per year is relatively low compared to here. Also I don't know of any of the supply houses or retails that I use that charges $12 for a basic breaker and $75 for a box of 10 duplex receptacles. That is about what I pay for a box of 10ea GFI's with a monitoring light.

I do my own work because I like to, the rate of $0.00/hr can't be beat, I'm available 24/7 so the only extra charge is a couple of cold ones, my diagnostics are equal to the better electricians and my wife demands that I fix the electrical problems at her mother's house any time her mother wants it done.

Good Luck, Old Salt

You said you "adore" working on live circuits. This confused me. After rereading your post i suspect you meant "abhor" and that is why you switch off and tag.

Jim :-)

Neither spelling or keyboarding are my fortes. There are many other things that my proficiencies rate higher. They range from poor to amazing, these ranges being much higher than those two skills.

The spelling error on that word is only partially mine since it came up with a red underline. I spell checked it and that is what I got. On that train of thought, one of the first word processors I ever used in business was a DOS based one named "Multi-Mate". One of my staff's responsibilities (many too many) was the safety and environmental activities of numerous chemical storage warehouses and tank farms. I had a propensity to spell warehouse as "wharehouse". When spell checked, the program would correct it to "whorehouse." A good case for spell checking the spell checker.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Usually, a circuit breaker shuts circuit off either magnetically in case of a high rapid current rise (typically a short circuit) or thermally in case of a long moderate overload. As far as I understand, you are in the second case. When the breaker cools, it reconnects the circuit and all your electrical devices are working again.

Our breakers are spring loaded, so when they throw, they don't turn back on.

The garage is full of stuff for our rental properties

Are your rental properties in a similar state?

If not, get in the electrician you use to look after them. If yes, get an electrician in.

cnc jim

I know the tenants use space heaters, but when they overload the circuit, the breaker throws. Our house is quite a bit more modern and larger, however we now have a dead circuit, which is upsetting to me. Also, out rentals seem to be better built - they're from the late 1950s.

Since when does a residential single pole breaker reset itself? I've never installed one that does, and the code does not allow it, as far as I know. All are manual, as it would defeat the purpose if it kept on closing a circuit with a fault. The heater in question is a device, and make have a temp sensor that auto disconnects and reconnects when it cools off, but are you sure your description is correct?

The breaker didn't throw. The breaker stayed on the whole time. The heater caused the circuit to lose power. The odd thing is that the power came back on after something in the circuit cooled. I think it was a loose write nut - the first time. The second time it didn't come back on. The breaker has never thrown.

"The breaker didn't throw. The breaker stayed on the whole time. The heater caused the circuit to lose power. The odd thing is that the power came back on after something in the circuit cooled. I think it was a loose write nut - the first time. The second time it didn't come back on. The breaker has never thrown."

What we have here is a classic case of a loose wire due to thermal expansion/contraction within the back contact of the socket.

There's a reason that electricians call those spring-loaded back insert points 'back-stabbers,' and you just got stabbed in the back by one.

That makes a lot of sense. I'm going to check the outlet back connection. Sounds like there's is a good chance that this is the problem. Thank you!

You're welcome. Stay safe out there.

It all sounds very American to me, so cant help much with specific product detail, but in general principle, as most previous post have said, you need to find the cause first and then the remedy.

Has everything worked until now? What have you 'added' recently to cause the problem. The fact that the power goes off and then comes back on later poses questions.

Does the power come on without you doing something. A breaker, if tripped, has to be switched on manually. If automatic it suggests an external supply issue affecting the whole property (and maybe neighbours) that needs the power company to sort out.

If in-house, is everything completely dead when off ?. This suggest a clean break and thus in a circuit common to all dead items. Where everything else is live up to the break.

Plug things in to narrow down where the break is. - I use a noisy drill on a long lead - I plug the drill in and put it where I can hear it to test remote sockets by 'sound' when switches and breakers are in a different room.

If power does not go off completely, it suggests a bad connection, that would be obvious because lights would dim or flicker all the time. This time you also need to look for a hot spot - literally. If you check by touch make sure the power is off first.

If the problem arose from connecting something 'extra' - then remove it! But beware, this has highlighted a problem lurking ready to pounce. You need to find it and fix it anyway.

Great troubleshooting advice! Unfortunztdly, I've done these things and the circuit is still dead. The circuit came back to life only one time. No flickering lights. I can't check for a hot spot because I can't get power to the first outlet.

I can't help much, except say a fault in a dead (or alive) circuit is easier to find than an intermittent fault.

I appreciate I might be telling you things you already know, or might done already done, but systematically you need to confirm the obvious.

You need some idea of the distribution schematic and the cable routes to do this.

From the supply end you follow the live cable along each branch until it is dead. From the every outlet end you follow the dead cable until it is live.

Where they meet is where the fault is.

....as an aside, do you have mischievous children? They might be able to explain the outage. I ask because as kids, my youngest brother cut the flex of a table lamp with a pair of scissors (don't ask!). It blew the fuse. But with no wire to mend the fuse I just swapped adjacent fuse-holders so some other circuit went dead. I fixed it the next day. But told no one.

Nothing was said to us. But I did hear Dad asking about some sewing job he was waiting for, and Mum saying it was late because she couldn't find her scissors, and her sewing machine did not work. But it did work when Dad plugged it in. So the tiff continued. We kept well clear.

Good troubleshooting advice. For us, the first outlet is dead and the only way to get to the wires is to break the dry wall. Thank you for your advice.

The breaker is working as it should. There is some sort of loose connection or a burned component somewhere. I will get an arc fault interruptor when I get this fixed.

Just open up all the outlet boxes, remove the wires from the back-stabbers (use a small screwdriver in the slot next to the back-stabber hole to release the wire, if it doesn't just fall out on its own), and attach then properly to the screw-terminals. Put two wraps of electrical tape around the outlet (to cover/insulate the screw terminals) and close everything back up. Problem solved.

"I will get an arc fault interruptor when I get this fixed."

I wouldn't, they just make matters worse.

The manufacturers are peddling them in the UK in the hope of them being included in BS7671. Over my dead body!

Tony, don't they help protect against arcing in the circuit?

No, they respond to an arc, they don't prevent them. In some annoying cases the arc can just be the arc from a switch opening.

Sorry, I didn't write my response right. I meant to say that.

...If that happened because you were killed by fault that occurred because you didn't have an AFCI might guarantee inclusion in BS7671.

The manufacturers are peddling them in the UK in the hope of them being included in BS7671. Over my dead body!

....if they do get included in BS7671, would this imply you had been killed by an electrical fault that would not have occurred if had an ACFI fitted...?

BS 7671 isn't retrospective so I won't be needing them.

They won't be in the 18^th first edition, after that who knows?

Hi Old Salt,

You analysis is correct and the reason I didn't write about the current in the circuit is that there is none. The 117V is at the output terminal of the breaker, however at the first outlet there is no voltage. The open LINE is somewhere between the output of the breaker and the first outlet. All off the wire is behinddrywall and its 14g Romex

Back in high school I took an electronics course. One part of the class dealt with home wiring. I remember hearing about 15A for lighting and 20a for outlets. My high school was in Illinois and that was in the early 80s. Here in CA, 15A circuits seem to be the norm and mixing lights with outlets on one 15A circuit is okay.

Have you checked where the GFCI circuit protection is for the bath room? It maybe the problem if the GFCI circuit was mixed in with the bedroom circuit. Try "tripping the GFCI and checking what does not work. Maybe, maybe not the issue.

I checked the GFCI in the bathroom and it's working fine. It's on a separate breaker.

If you're going to continue to try to locate this, get a multimeter and a non-contact voltage tracer. Some of the ways to trace this that have been suggested are dangerous at best. Do it right, unless your wife really wants to get rid of you.

Okay, I got home Sunday morning at 2:00 am! After some sleep, I started my troubleshooting work - you guys gave me some awesome advice!

First, I went to the circuit breaker. I removed the breaker and there were no signs of heat, so I put it back in. Just to be sure, I swapped breakers with the one below. I checked that circuit (which is for the other two bedrooms) and everything is working fine. I even stressed it a bit by running the 1500W heater and no problem - circuit breaker in question is good. I checked the "dead" circuit and nothing, still dead.

Second, I checked the neutral at the breaker. Everything looks good, but just to be sure, I tried to tighten the screws - they were all tight - everything at the breaker box is good.

Third, I started with the first outlet. No voltage between either hot-neutral or hot-ground. I ran an extension cord from the other bedroom circuit and checked resistance to neutral on first outlet. Meter read "0 ohms". I also did the same for ground and got the same reading.

Fourth, with the breaker off, I ran the extension cord from the second outlet and measured resistance to the first outlet hot. Meter read "0 ohms".

So, everything past the first outlet looks good. Shoot! It's between the first outlet and the breaker.

There is a light switch on the east wall of the house (for the light in the master bedroom). I took the switch out and checked the connections and wire nuts. Everything looks good here, except two wires were stripped a little too far (too much copper showing), so I cut the wire back and put the wire nut back on. For the hell of it, I went down and threw the breaker.

ELECTRICITY!!!!

I checked all the outlets in the circuit and my tester gave me two yellows on all the outlets (for my tester it means we're good).

With two alarm clocks on, cordless phone on, two UVerse boxes on standby, tv's and sound bar on standby, all lights off, I wanted to stress test the circuit, so I plugged the good old 1500W heater into the last outlet. Runs good, cord isn't getting hot - we're in business!

Then it happened! Electricity out again!

@#$%^@, COME ON!!

Circuit breaker still on - threw it off and on to make sure. Checked first outlet - 0VAC! Threw the master bedroom light switch - it works! Went to the bathroom light switch - still dead. Next to the other bedroom light switch - still dead.

I shut the breaker off, went to HD and picked up a box of 15A outlets. Pulled the back wire out of the first outlet and checked the outlet for heat damage. No signs of any, but put a new outlet in (screwed in side terminals). Ran downstairs, threw the breaker.

ELECTRICITY!!!!

Stress tested with the heater and everything else off. Ran for 15 minutes with no problems. Yessss!!!

Now that I think about it, in the second bedroom, the wires in the light switch box are before the outlets in the daisy chain. They wired it the same way in the master bedroom! I made the assumption that the outlet came first in the chain, when in reality it was the wires in the switch box. So the first item in the circuit is the master bedroom switch box.

I'm not sure why the wire nut was a problem in both bedrooms. I can't see how exposed wires (wires cut too long and wire nut doesn't provide full cover) in a wire nut can cause problems like this. Maybe the connection was dirty, but the wires were a nice shiny copper color when I took the wire nut off. I definitely see the problem with the stab connectors in the outlet - one of the first things I do when I buy a rental is to test all the outlets and switches, then replace them all and use the screw terminals, but I didn't do it at our house - geez, good job Greg! When I bought our house, I assumed that nobody had monkeyed around with the electrical and if so, they did it properly.

Bad assumption! The builder went cheap and cut labor costs. He used the back stab connectors in the outlets. Seeing the exposed wire on the wire nuts, I can no longer assume that they did a good job on our house. Funny thing is that they used some pretty nice dimmer switches (the ones you slide your finger to adjust) and some pretty nice outlet/switch plates. They didn't go cheap on the parts; they just went cheap on the labor!

My next job is to rewire all the outlets, switches and check the wire nuts. I want to get this done soon - one less thing to worry about.

My sincere thanks to everyone who gave me advice. You took time out of your busy schedule and I greatly appreciate it. Some great advice you provided and it helped me tremendously!

Thank you!

Greg

I am glad to hear that you finally found and solved the puzzle using your resourcefullness!

I received a lot of great advice from this group. What was happening didn't make sense to me and I'll admit that I was frustrated.

I appreciate your help and advice!

Good. A bit of methodical elimination logic works wonders!

I am not sure what you mean when you are talking about 'back-stabbing' connectors.

Is this a USA thing?

PS: how do you pronounce "@#$%^@"

These receptacles have the normal screw terminal, but also have a small hole in the rear that you can poke in the stripped end of #12 sold copper wire. There is a metal "dog" inside that is angled downward. The wire pushes past it and when pulled back, spring tension prevents it from being removed and (hopefully) is tight enough to make a good contact. That point of contact is very small. This remarkable invention allows a lazy electrician to install receptacles about five times faster than properly wrapping around the screw. The wire is released by pressing another piece of wire in another hole which releases the dog and allows the conductor to be removed.

When I take the old outlets out of my rentals (they must be 30+ years old), the back stab release gets stuck and I have to work the wires out. I've even had some where I have to break the plastic to get the wire out.

I think the new outlets aren't built so well, because I rarely have trouble getting the wire out of them. The outlets at our house have to be from the early 90's (our house was built in 1992) and the wires are easy to get out. They even feel lighter and cheaply made.

I think the whole neighborhood heard me scream @#$%^! I couldn't believe the power went out again!

This job was as frustrating as working on plumbing!

Thanks for the feedback. Here in OZ we are not allowed to have lights and power on the same circuit so i would never have thought of looking there.

P.S. we can plug lights into a power outlet/socket/receptacle/GPO

That's something else i learned, a whole new terminology. ;-)

Jim

Each state has their own electrical code. I live in CA and we can run #14 Romex in the walls, which are stapled to the studs (every one of our homes is wired this way). When I lived in Chicago, we were required to run conduit in the wall (definitely safer and easier to run new lines).

Imagine my surprise when I came to CA and found no conduit and instead wires with only a thin piece of plastic holding it all together. Too easy for a stray screw or nail to short it out (like when hanging pictures).

Thanks again for your help and advice!

One last thing I forgot to mention. The 1500W heaters are history! We're going with 750W heaters and only one on each circuit.

Congratulations! Excellent! Way To Go! That's Using the Ol' Cranium to Eliminate a BIG PAIN IN THE A$$! Hope the wife appreciates all the time, brain power and frustration you gave to get this resolved for her! Great diagnosis of a seldom experienced type of problem. Glad you followed the good ideas and trashed the bad.

If it is any consolation you are not very unique in this type of problem. Last house I had was a just constructed colonial. I was away at the time of the closing so the wife did the closing inspection. What I found was that the only electrical things that worked were 2 ceiling fixtures and 4 receptacles. Contacted the Builder and made all types of threats. A different electrical contractor was there next day and worked 3 days to repair/rebuild the whole electrical system.

The reason I know about the heating of the breakers/buss bars is it happened to me at the same house. TV and lights would flicker but seemed for no reason. A week later I was installing a 240v-50a breaker and an outlet below the c/b box located for a welder in the attached garage. As I started I noticed a faint crackling sound and orange glow behind the main breaker. Verified it's location with a piece of very absolutely dry tygon tubing used as a non contact stethoscope. Moved all necessary breakers over to the good buss bar fed by the good side of the main and operated that way for a week. At that time I replaced the Cutler -Hammer box and breakers with Square D and used no "double breakers" although at that time I could.

Again, Great Job!

Good Luck, Old Salt

Thank you for your help. It sure came in handy.

A tip I learned the hard way many years ago, when you're dealing with wire nuts, after tightening, always tug on each wire. You'd be surprised at how easy it is to have a loose wire that really loks good.

Excellent tip. I've had wires come loose and also I've had the wire break from me tightening the nut too tight.

Our house was built in 1992 and I think the electrical hasn't been worked on since then. For some reason, it worked for 23 years and decided to go this year. It could have been from the heat (running too much current through the wire), but I'm thinking that the original install wasn't done right. I'm amazed that it lasted this long.

Ideal Industries http://www.idealind.com/ makes numerous styles of screwdrivers that they call "twist-a-nut". It has a recess in the end of the handle that fits their, and other brands, of wire nuts.

http://www.idealind.com/products/tools_totes/screwdrivers/twist-a-nut_pro.jsp

brochure- http://www.idealind.com/media/pdfs/products/brochures/p-5023_twist-a-nut_brochure.pdf

video- http://www.idealind.com/videos/431

The advantage of them is that you can tighten the wire nuts much tighter to reduce poor contact, usually at least 3 full revolutions. They cost about twice that of a comparable screwdriver without this feature. I have used them for at least 35 years and won't start any electrical work without them. Bare fingers could never compare to them. They work on at least the yellow and red wire nuts, the most common sizes used in residential installations.

This is not a commercial endorsement. I recommend them to anyone who does any work with wire nuts.

Good Luck, Old Salt

These are excellent tools! A friend of mine whose an electrician has one of these. The first time I saw it, I thought it was a great idea.

I like Ideal tools. I have a nice Ideal clamp meter, which I always have with me when I'm working on the rentals. I also have a couple Flir clamp meters, which are really nice, but they're big and heavy. Definitely a level above the Ideal, but they're a little too big to fit in my work box, so I keep the Ideal meter with me.