Just an Engineer or something special worth counting

I'm so special that when I was young I got to ride a special bus to school.

I think I'm special, and I've always been treated that way every place I've worked. I remember getting my first engineering job at age 12. My dad came home and announced that he wanted me to design a forklift for his warehouse operation. I drew it up, we went to a local steel outfit and they built it. We used it for years.

Later I saw an IQ test in Reader's Digest. It encouraged me to apply to Mensa, where I discovered I have an IQ in the 99.5 percentile.

I've always been able to see things from unexpected perspectives, so I'm always coming up with crazy ways to solve a problem - sometimes, occasionally, one of them lies sufficiently within the realm of reality that it actually works. That talent has served me well.

In addition to the engineering thing, I also paint, sculpt, cook, and remodel houses. I once had a professor who told us that, as engineers, we could do anything we set our minds to, because ultimately everything is engineering. I've found that to be true.

I'm sure I would have accomplished much more if I wasn't so lazy.

Dear Bhankiii

"I'm sure I would have accomplished much more if I wasn't so lazy."

You do not sound lazy as that will make you hard to write few lines. You can sure count on your achievements.

At that age of 12 perhaps people start looking for the ideas in the world. At 12, I was travelling far distances and brought many new farm equipment that were used at other places in western India and were not used by my father in his farm. It was hard for me to carry those equipments in the train as they had sharp edges and were long up to 4 meters. At that time train windows were not having Iron Grills so I pushed through windows with the help of people inside. I am sure will not do all that now. However, at that time I had little options and I wanted those things for my father as those were great things. I was such a small child that all people in the train felt worth helping me.

Can you draw the fork you built for your father?

I won't draw it, but I'll describe it.

The active part was two 4 inch steel C channels mounted vertically and about 12 feet tall. They were spaced 4 feet across and connected at the top by a cross piece and connected on the bottom to a 4 foot square steel framed base. An H-shaped member slid up and down the rails, on grease. Two 3 foot C channel pieces were welded to the H member for forks. A steel cable attached to the top of the H member and went up to the top cross piece through a pulley and back down to the base where it attached to a boat winch, powered by a 12V car battery. The whole thing rolled on 6 inch heavy duty casters. It was heavy, but not so heavy that a 12 year old couldn't push it around fully loaded. The maximum load that it had to lift was about 500 pounds, from ground level to about 10 feet.

It had a built in safety feature in that when the cable broke the H member would jam in the C-channels and the load would not fall.

Dear Bhankiii

Absolutely great idea. Perhaps the initial thought might have come from load lifter trolley with U fork used for transporting material in small spaces and putting them over stacked goods. Whatever may be your source of intuition, it sure was a great idea. I will say, well done.

Why so many "III" in you name here? Are you not satisfied with one or they signify something special?

In America, if you are named after your father, you follow your name with Jr., for "junior" and your father would follow his name with Sr., for "senior". If you then had a son and gave him the same name, he would follow his name with III, for "the 3rd". His son would be IV, for "the 4th". and so on.

So, I am the 3rd generation to carry my name, and I follow my name with III. The name bhankiii is from an email tag I was assigned many years ago which is a combination of the first letter of my first name, my middle name, and my suffix, III.

Nice. I remember Elizabeth II, but I thought it is just something might have been a text modification done to remove confusion and now I know that it is something to do with the family, like Father and Son. How about daughters in your case? Do they carry similar names?

I have surname of my father and so my son and daughters have my surname. However after marriage my daughters supposed to change the surname to their new family surname.

It's rarely done with daughters, although these days anything goes.

Youre not Lazy, normally Talented and Special People are too workaholic... up in their brains. The brain consume more energy than the body... you use it more than your physical faculties - leaving only a few energy supply left for the body - The effect is often misunderstood as laziness. :-) Cheers!

I know your asking about engineers that feel they are extraordinary, but what about others.

I in my lifetime so far have designed and built machines for every company I have worked for.

My parents told me, that when I was small I was always fascinated with how things worked. Taking them apart and putting them back together from the time I could hold a tool in my hand. As a result I can see in my mind what goes on inside a piece of machinery as it operates and am quite adept at finding problems very quickly.

I wish I could see things electronically as well but as I am lacking in formal training in that area it takes me a bit longer to track things down sometimes.

Years of experience and the tinkering as a young lad allow me to thing differently from others and sometimes it is hard for them to understand the concept of things I find simple. I too have taken the Mensa test and scored in the upper 90 percent. I find the daily order of things to be mundain.

I read things like books, technical manuals, and various articles just to keep me sharp and up to date with new technology. I know that sounds like a good thing and it is, but the downside of it is I am unable to forget anything I read. (yes this really is a downside) Have you ever had your computer so full of information that it ran slow? Kinda what happens to me. Sometimes I feel like I need to do a core dump and start over. I wouldn't necessary call it a photographic memory but probably damn close.

Anyhow, as a twist on what Forrest Gump might say..."Special is what special does"

Keep smiling, It makes people wonder what your up to.

Hi

In real sense you are the engineer doing just a great job. Engineers doing something else may or may not be doing those great jobs that you often may do much better.

It is not a debate between good and bad engineers but will like to know, how some engineers are different. All we need is 10% of such people to make a drastic change in the current knowledge if they are real good in thinking than in book directed work.

Have you ever seen a hose driven cart. They put some cover to its eyes such that horse can not see side ways and can look only in front direction. Engineers are something like that. You can say that engineers concentrate fully on the routine work. Scientists supposed to look into everything else that is not obvious so they keep their eyes in all other direction and see little of the front side and move slow. Some of the engineers are like scientists and think and work in that manner.

Thanks for the Kudos Shyam.

I like to think though not formally trained that I am an engineer myself.

Though I do not discount education as it is imparative that one be educated in ones endeavors. I do ask is it necessary for the education to be formal to be accepted in the business comunity? The unfortunate answer most of the time is yes.

I am self taught for the most part and the advent of the world wide web has really helped me to further my education. I am however looking into getting a formal degree in industrial engineering to back up my 25 years of practical experience.

I was curious if you had reveiwed the topic in CR4 here as to what others have been discussing regarding a similiar topic and what your thoughts were on it.

I am not an engineer. I have worked hand in hand with many, many engineers in past 20 years by being the "make it happen guy" on numerous projects. By being flexible, teachable, and quality minded, I have had the privilege of some outstanding projects. I have an Assc. Degree from Texas State Tech., manufacturing and Engineering Technology, and a CADD degree (12/07) from a respected private college. I will almost immediately return to finish a 4 year.

I have found it so rewarding to be on this extended apprenticeship. I have met some outstanding and some not-so engrs in all fields. I have made above average income (well above) and truly been blessed. I now am taking on my own projects in my spare time. It is what I enjoy. I also can take time to write and do all the other things I enjoy, or have to do, but its the how and the why that brings me great pleasure.

Currently I have 27 design/engineering projects on paper with 2 of the lesser off to patent by end of August, and 2 books in various stages of completion (informative, ones a recipe book. Not the real reading kind. The other is for children involving geography and coinage)

I feel that perspective is all important. It is as the quote goes.
"Creativity begins with seeing what everybody else has seen and then thinking what no one else has thought.

Due to my terminal inability to remain employed I was forced to strike out on my own. (paraphrasing former CEO of Hoovers.com)

Try cranking out dozens of big projects when young and full of that vigor stuff. My ego was so big that all others who did not possess that skill were classified as "Mere Mortals"

That kind of thinking did indeed get me into trouble later in life. It seems that I required being put into my place. Even now it can be painful thinking about that process. But that old feeling of having beyond normal abilities was heady and exciting.

Hi

Sure, that may become a drawback at times, when you can do too many things in very little time. You are left out with lots of free time and others think you are not working or demanding too much money as need all that for many projects at a time.

In any way, others are not teachers, so seriously you need not to worry about their attitude. Perhaps you can be diplomatic and keep telling them that the work is too tough and you need more help from their special ability etc to satisfy their ego.

I remember one such event in my life. We used to import nuclear MCA from ORTEC and those bulky expensive items were not possible to import in large volume and if something went wrong then only those people from USA have to repair. Then they also given bad ADC inside and 4K ADC was working as 2K ADC. I was asked by one of my senior if I can make those machine and he gave me 30 days time. I am sure IRTEC should have taken many years for that. I built the hardware in 15-days and then also wrote software in another 15 days and this machine was ready for use. I built 3 of them at that time. When I was referred for promotion to higher level, the people who were experts were different and were trying hard to build those machine for many years and failed so they did not believe me that I did all that work so they did not find me fit for the grade up. Our local people who were the actual users, were shocked, and again next year I was sent for job promotion. I told those people sitting on the table that I knew their job and they were doing great job and I am just trying to help a bit local people as they are far away and can not come to help and they area real experts. Their ego was satisfied and they push me up one position immediately. People those are inferior to you and hold the senior positions will never accept your superiority if they can manage it as accepting you as a better person means dooming out their position forever. I had a bit of fun in all that, but I have seen others getting depressed and even commit suicide. I will only say, that life is a fun and more than engineering so just be happy in your own work irrespective of social out come and simply enjoy it all the way. Now that I left the job and own the private research, I no longer think in terms of job related problems for me. I do think about my employees now.

Life is a great opportunity to experience it. If you are deprived, then also do not let others to rule over your mind. Your mind is you and not the physical self which we see. What makes you feel about yourself is the real you. Engineers will face pressure and abuse at times and must watch out that you are not depressed. Euphoria and depression are identically damaging reactions.

I am sorry to say that in the US engineers are not in such high regard. People in the US are more self reliant than most and years ago were much more mechanically/electrically inclined. I am not sure what the future brings but the easy life in the US does not breed hard work or hard education.

You may be some what right about engineering profession not being very special in USA. I think there are many avenues to show up talent and for some, engineering may be a totally a dull and boring area to work. I have learnt about diverse attitude of people and I very much appreciate that. It was planned under Apollo system of Government that people involving non-essential activities should not be compared with essential technology activities and in fact may be paid much higher than technically trained hard working person.

One good example for this one is film actors, models, singers, stage performers, artists and perhaps athletes that may include boxers and WWF participants. Most of them are capable to purchase the entire district containing city and 100s of villages in India. Our cricketer Mr. Tandulkar gets that much money and the people who make others to survive by food they grow, remain where they were 3000 years ago or may be now in worst condition and some almost forced to commit suicide as they are unable to survive in present condition of financial differences.

Read this - one suicide every eight hours

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1049554

While I agree with what you say about engineers not being held in high regard in the USA, it was not always so. I believe from my own experience that the decline in admiration for engineers has only really occurred over the past 25-30 years. When I started in this profession, engineers were held in very high regard. In fact, going back further in time, medical doctors were not held in as high a regard as engineers. That has drastically changed here in the US lately. One has to ask why?

I am a book collector. I limit my collection to old manuals and such. I have a machinist's shop book from the Henry Ford School. I also have some old rail engineering books. Read a few of these old manuals and its amazing to see the change. Engineers got dirty. If it was broke they fixed it, with a junior at his side. For that matter take a look at an old (ca. 1890) third grade primer. It is obvious the change began long ago and is running an unfortunate course.

CR3

I like being an Abby Norm Eng, and potty trained as well

You are in that 10% of the Apollo System.

Shyam

I think your post is quite appropriate to the CR4 forum in that, from what I've gathered, most of the members have distinguished themselves in one way or another and have an inherent impulse to share their knowledge and help others, with some humor of course.

For me, I would characterize your proposition of being special or remarkable as the nature of thinking 'outside the box'. It has much to do with mentor-ship and education/experience, but I think it is ultimately a trait of personality. Those who think outside the box are rarely concerned with what's going on inside the box and can then get themselves in a bit of trouble, but are ultimately identified by those inside the box.

Unfortunately, in the US, engineering is a predominantly box oriented field; way too many meetings and discussions and studies, etc., to solve what is very often a relatively simple problem. When an unconventional method of solving a problem is presented, the same groups of people get together for the same meetings, etc., so they can rationalize the solution within the box.

I am by no means box oriented, thankfully. I get a lot of "you can't do that" and "it can't be done that way" comments, but I ignore them.

A moment I shall forever remember in my career came about 30 years ago. A brilliant man and my mentor of some 5 years was explaining a problem to me. After a lengthy description, he looked at me and said "What should we do?" What he said didn't sink in for a few days, and when it did, I was a bit uncomfortable but I realized that I had surpassed the level I was striving for. Yes, it made me feel special and still does.

Well put.

I ,not being a degreed engineer, have had to work doubly hard at getting the attention of peers. I am never afraid to ask the absurd question. To propose the possibility of abstract solution. Or, conversely, the simplistic.

I have had to shoulder much frustration as some (particularly the young) roll eyes or spend much energy explaining exactly why that can't work. Yet I explain I know it will not work and am just trying to stir the imaginative cauldron.

Often I will pull these people aside, off to a cornner or such, and inform them that I am well aware of my knowledge limits, and that I am quickly seeing theirs. I am aware that the proposition I put forth might not be the ultimate solution. However, time and time again I have seen the spark of CREATIVE THOUGHT, and the gears of the CREATIVE MACHINE come to action after one of my 'abby norm' suggestions register in some long abandoned recess of a now box-bound engineer.

I find it personally reassuring, though I get little credit. For after all, all I did was facilitate a shift in thinking. It is the pro engineer who has the needed educational resources to finalize the plan. Yet I get to implement the ideas.

I am now anxious to afford my own work space (soon God willing) and to continue dialogue with the likes of the CR4 community. It is truly a rewarding experience for another one of the 'special ones' like myself.

C Rummel3, we share the distinction of not being degreed. As I posted in another thread, my dad (an Australian mining engineer) was of the old school and impressed upon me that an engineer should be capable of designing, building, operating and repairing. I went into the maritime industry 35 years ago. In hindsight, I think I chose ships to work on because they are machines that you can literally get into.

Marine engineering (I was licensed but no longer sail) is a wonderful field in that one is exposed to most every aspect of engineering. You can't take it in all at once, but through the years I've had the opportunity to learn a hell of a lot; and it's the brass tack real world that so many US degreed engineers are clueless of. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing all degreed engineers, as I have met and worked with many fine engineers, but 'Real World 101' isn't on the course list of most universities.

'Real World 101' isn't on the course list of most universities. Hell, most Universities are run by the Leftminded without a honest clue of life other then teaching whom else to blame. They teach, "Its all about Me". What a way to start a new life with, I am an Island, I am a Rock.

Dear Mareng

Your name sounds like Mexican music and the name was something closer to it.

I love your analogy of within the box and the world outside the box. In quantum mechanics, if you are within the box then you will live in quantized discrete levels and those levels will be many and you also share your level with few. You can jump from one level to another, and others may take your level. You can absorb a quantum of energy and can emit only known quantum of energy. Nothing else is acceptable as that is against the rules of the box. Outside the box you can even be the part of the expanding universe, dark matter, time traveler or whatever you like to be.

When you are on a mission and a team, then your goal is only the success of the team and achievement for the team even though you may excel better than others. All in the team differ in thinking so have different plans but rarely go away from collective decisions. Individual decision at times may cause disaster to the team. You know that, if two members pull the rope in opposite direction then you take it to nowhere. Teaming up properly you may sail the entire ocean in ordinary paper boat.

I always did the work along with my fellow team members and always took them to the teams final goal. I just happens to be too fast so always finished my work in 10 time and found 90 time still available. As I was not to interfere in the work of other team members, and unless help is asked, it is never extended, to maintain the dignity of the other members, I followed the rules. I usually took one person to assist me such that, the assisting person can pick some ideas from the way I worked to reach the goal. It was often difficult for others to pick all that I was doing as I was working by hands as well as my my mind. You can not make your mind visible to others, and its speed is so high that, what you think in short time may take days to explain to others who do not have that kind of perception within.

Having realized that, I am different, I was allocated services to more than a dozen different departments located in 12km area. I became specialist to others and there were specialists in each of those departs also working hard to solve problems. I still found time, so started writing into many USA magazines, EDN Cahner's publication ((search for name on www.ednmag.com) and Electronics Design (www.eledesign.com) and also some in Electronics world and Wireless Work of UK (I have no reference now for this magazine). I also started giving training to others, and in parallel started working on chemistry of thermoluminescence phosphors, physics of luminescence, and instruments for nuclear applications and nuclear reactor emergency handling. I can not say I was extraordinary as I can see many who were extra ordinary working on limited fields and their work is still in use world over. One of them lived only 25 years and wrote new mathematical models and died out of blood cancer (Leukemia). I can only say that I was different and I got opportunity to live what I was and all that matters to me. I much more appreciate the work of others who worked pointedly towards serious goals for which I was not fit at all.

No one is a perfect fit model to the world. Some are like tall trees, some are grass and some are bushes. Whatever, we may be, we all make the earth looking good with our creativity and intelligence. We not only have to work and sharpen our own skill and ability and contribute, we also have to appreciates others work irrespective of that being in our direction or not.

If I make some mistake in life, I prefer to correct that and remember it till the time it is corrected. Unfortunately, it is impossible to correct everything that went wrong in time. I prefer to balance it by doing more good to the world than harming or hurting any one. After all we are human.

I might be special, but I don't know for sure. I am different, for sure.

I was never athletic as a kid, so I read a lot. In the 5th grade I read a couple of books about weather. After that I was able to make fairly accurate forecasts based only on my observations of the clouds, winds, etc. If you know about basic weather patterns, you can do that with about 80% accuracy. I was also able to explain some basic science concepts to my classmates, so they started calling me "Professor." That nickname stuck until high school.
About that time I became a Christian, and began studying the Bible. At one time I had memorized the names to all the books of the Bible, and I could quote lots of verses.

Later on, I sold auto parts for a local chain of parts stores. By the time I left that job, I had memorized the part numbers to 3 dozen or so parts and their applications.

I do have 2 degrees, both Associates. The first is for Computer Programming, but it covered mostly mainframe languages. I received that degree just before PC's began to dominate, so I've neve had a chance to use it.
My second degree is in mathematics. I sought that degree because I wanted to become a research meteorologist. I would still like to do some research, but on my own. However that takes money.
While working to pay off student loans and buy a better vehicle, I got caught in 2 layoffs caused by workplace shutdowns. The second one was caused by imports, and that qualified me for a training assistance program. I used that program to go to school to learn drafting.
The school has a placement department, and they also would take in work on a contract basis. They hired me for a contract to bring a bunch of old drawings up to modern standards, and the client company also wanted 3D parametric models to help their engineers visualize changes to the parts more easily.
Some of these parts had threads that were standardized, but not common. The software package we used was Mechanical Desktop. It has a command that will create a representation of threads, but it's not a true 3D profile of the thread. I read the help files and experimented until I figured out how to create the 3D threads. this was something that even the instructor who taught me MDT didn't know how to do! Later on, I was given a job of creating 3D threads for a sucker rod company that needed a model to plug into stress analysis software to find out why these particular threads were failing. I got that job because I was the only one available who knew how to do it.
I have worked on drafting jobs in various fields, but most have to do with some kind of machinery.

I am also a writer. Most of what I have written is for church bulletins and newletters. I entered a writing contest 10 years ago, my only time to enter a contest, and won second place in my division. I have had two aticles published in magazines, both relating to ham radio.
I was the Activities Chair for the Tulsa Repeater Organization for about 2 1/2 years. During that time I organized communications for a State Fair Parade and two foot races. One is a neighborhood race, the other is the Tulsa Run.
When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, most communications was knocked out, but ham radio could still got through. For a week, I was responsible for recruting and scheduling hams to go operate the HF station at the Tulsa Red Cross. When the Red Cross opened a shelter for evacuees at a nearby military camp, I recruited the first hams to go there. The hams that went wound up serving as the 911 system there for a week. I couldn't go, but I kept track of what went on and wrote an article about it that appeared in QST, the official publication of our national ham radio organization.
My other article appeared in CQ-VHF, and outlined principles for organizing communications for public service events.

In addition to public service, I like to play with antenna designs. I created a loop antenna that has a profile similar to an arrowhead. I've had fun using it, too.

I can't get around to participate in ham radio acivities as much as I'd like to (dead car), but I still do what I can.

I'm not an engineer, but I suspect I'll become one eventually. I've been drafting only since 2001, so I still have much to learn. I might not be special, but I'm probably right on the fringe.

Wow. It is so good to find out that the path I have chosen is in fact the right path for me. I was too smart to do what everybody else was doing (by smart I mean arrogant and stubborn) and go to university. I find comfort these days as I am on the verge of some signifcant success from my own projects. I am further pleased to see how many of 'us' there are, those of us that are a bit 'old-school'.

I read QST as well. My Pop works the 26-27 Mhz in Tx, so to talk to him from where I'm at I built an inverted V Ant, which works nicely

You were your own teacher for long so will also make small path for others. Putting things on paper works well. In Electronics Design magazine www.elecdesign.com/ there has been a special column by BOB Peace who works for National Semiconductor now and perhaps was with Teledyne Philbrick some 28 years ago. His articles are sketch of basic design like LM741, LM709 etc and DAC blocks. As he has written now for many years and has created many thing and is known as Legend. In similar way, you can perhaps do something to tell others about things you did and how you did and your achievements. Just write in some magazine or write a book.

Even if you do not do new things but tell others and teach others simple methods of doing things then also you are special and valuable person for the society. Popes of the Churches are doing things in small way what Jesus did or wanted to be.

As I have read through all the comments I now realize that there are more people out there like me than I originally thought. It's somewhat comforting to know than even though I was self taught and learned alot of things "Old School" there is still a place for me in the engineering community.

I have called myself this for years but I now bestow up all of you that are like me the "Honorary Degree of Practical Engineer" Given this 30th day of July in the year 2007

May you be forever greatful for your teachings and search out life little secrets just for the joy of learning them.

Yes, I am in search of all of you who do things because you think that way and want to express your mind in creativity in some way or the other, and engineering is only one little way out of many ways out there waiting all the time for you.

I can see and feel Adam digging all the time the hard rocks made by God and I just trying to understand what makes him to do so. When I look back at myself I find myself doing the same thing and perhaps in different ways like engineering.

Some of us associate a purpose like getting bread out of work and some want to protect future and some want to be famous and and some do for fun and some are yet to know why they do things.

The aim, that you set to do things is in your control, and once you associate to things then you are the reason and the purpose, and the outcome really does not matter unless you associate the work plan to it in advance.

The man and his Karma (acts) get embedded in the future for the man in which he travels in time and has right to decide his path in time but has no right on the outcome of his actions. This is what "The Geeta" Literature is all about. You can be happy without doing anything as happiness is a state of mind. Doing things can make you happy or unhappy if you associate your reaction to the outcome. If you do things only to understand the possibility of success, then unhappiness can go away. If you do it by greed then failures bound to make you unhappy. You can say that your happiness is in your control and it is only for you to control it to become happy. It has something to do with association of your mind to things and then reactions.

Sometime you feel that those in the NASA going up in the space or those in Defense fighting for the nation are only great. In fact, that is not true. Each one on the earth is as good another and only their mind and action association differ. You can feel like NASA scientist and engineer in your backyard Garden in protecting roses or making small grass look great. It is up to you, what you think is great. You have to discover, what you think is the one you want to do and then that becomes great.

Time, space and action may look limited but mind can do wonders anywhere. Think great, feel great, and remain happy in controlled manner. This can be your hobby or professional engineering that can result into such thing called happiness and is only one way of doing it.

Shyam, I am impressed by your heartfelt demeanor. The feedback and consideration that you offer is warm. God be with you.

CR3

God is with you all the way.

Thanks Shyam,

Nuff said on my part.

This has been an interesting thread. I have virtual brothers and sisters in this forum. I joined Mensa to find a wife. Been married 29 years. Most interesting thing that I discovered was that not all people could think in pictures and visualize animated diagrams. Also discovered that some people could not read a map or a tape measure or ruler. Seems that (my neuropsychologist wife tells me) we all have hardwired capabilities but that some of them never get connected.

Engineers have always had an image problem compared with rock and sports stars. The Greek god of the forge (engineering), Haephestus or the Roman version, Vulcan, was protrayed as dirty, ugly, smelly and had a limp. And this was a god!

Dave Meador

I am a GOD, he says!

Perhaps that may be his real name or his meaning of God may be different. At times people say that I can kill you or I can leave you so I am your God. I think, people may have different definition of God and this no one may have thought very seriously as it is really not very import, who the God is.

People somehow feel that they were brought here in life by some God and the same God will also decide, where they will go after leaving this life. As you never see your God, you make all shorts of story about your God or accept some stories told by others. You are free to take as many stories you like for selecting your best God, and Hindus were not satisfied even with 80000 Gods so they encroach the territory of others few Gods also. I am Hindu but I pray Jesus in my heart and have Quoran in my home and love Buddha's preaching and am vegetarian. I even don't mind any other kind of God and only condition is that the God must not be a very cruel killer. Shape of the God is not important and I will only like to share his knowledge with me. I will not mind God to run his business, for whatever reason he may be running it. I will sure dislike God interfering in my business. I think God is naughty so will sure interfere in my business even though I do interfere in his business or do I?

Engineers have always had an image problem compared with rock and sports stars. The Greek god of the forge (engineering), Haephestus or the Roman version, Vulcan, was protrayed as dirty, ugly, smelly and had a limp. And this was a god!

'twas a light-hearted response to the above statement.

Yet your point is well made and kindly received.

We know one God called Vishwakarma. He is more like an engineer for the God or Godly engineer. He is supposed create any thing and everything in engineering in one night. I do not know why he works only in the night and how his workers can see in the night. Most of the constructions that are associated to him like special temples etc supposed have been built in a single night right in the mid of the city and with zero dB noise. As these temples are only about 1000-2000 year old made from stone, we believe these stories were planted deliberately after the death of all those were present in the period these temples were constructed. Once those people are gone, everything else is only a hear say.

We all have to work as no other mid night Vishwakarma going to help us. So let us sleep in the night and work in the day time. I am not sure if each country has its own Vishwakarma or all those God's engineers love only India and do not care about the rest of the work. While you all do engineering work, we do Puja in temples to invite Vishwakarma to work for us whole night and at highest speed. We also do not provide any raw material to our God's engineers and they do not leave any dirt and leave the place ready for use the very next morning. We have lots of such stories about God's engineering. I will like to see if there is some similarity in the designs.

Our 90% plus population believes in those stories and poor engineers are reminded that they are no where near The Great Vishwakarma. Aryan moved to India 3000 years ago and were the greatest skilled people in fabricating fanciful stories to pass the free time. People love to hear their stories even today.

I take great comfort that Jesus and his father, Joseph, are described in the Bible as "techtons." This is a Greek word that means a skilled worker in wood or stone, connoting someone with more skill than a rough or framing carpenter. About the same time that Jesus was a boy of apprentice age, the Romans were busy constructing a city, Sephora, within walking distance of Nazareth. Builders from all over the Mediterranean area built Roman cities and just maybe Jesus got a lot of exposure to tradesmen and engineer types. Certainly, he had a lot of sayings that touched on the trades. One thing was for certain, it didn't matter how well you dressed or what religion you believed, what mattered was that your work was good and didn't fall apart when shaken. Also wood was expensive and scarce at that time and place and they didn't trust just anybody with a hammer and saw with a valuable material. I consider Joseph and Jesus Christian "patron saints" of engineers and technicians.

Patron Saint of Engineers, St. Patrick, St. Ferdinand III

Yes, I remember, one documentary which was about distance healing for those there was no hope at all and prayers were conducted at distance places for such people and this was a scientific study to see the effect on people for whom these people agreed to pray to God for healing and performed the regular payers. Then in some cases the locals were also asked to do the same thing.

If you know that some one is praying for you then some effect on your mind likely to be there, but for some one who knows nothing about prayer, the effect can be only if God really understands the purpose of the prayers and feel OK to act upon.

Assume that you have an apple on the table and you pray the God to cut it number of parts and your friend praise if for its disappearance then which one the God will give priority. I don't think God affects the Physics unless God is the probability function under command of people and their prayers. Power of the mind if any is not yet known beyond the Physical capability of the individual we see in sports, war, public high offices having business games and political games.

God doesn't work for you. Perhaps you are working for the God, as you are the creation of the God for his purpose or no purpose.

If so many people in current time are willing to give life for simple cause or negative value to humanity, some of them if they very clever then they can give life to a very constructive story conceived earlier and then that can make them predicted God.

I know one such person, and his name was Dr. MS Murthy, he was in US, married to an American women and had a daughter, got separated from wife, returned to India and worked in our hospital for many years, changed his name to Abdullah, then one day he comes and tells me that he is the Jesus II and an incarnation of God Vishnu. He used to hear the divine sounds in his house where he lived alone for many years, and also used to hear messages from the God. I asked him to write down everything he hears and then he can publish as book after finding a publisher, so he did, and finally left the Hospital job of a senior doctor position and finally he became a self pronounced God. He informed that now there is a temple for him somewhere in the south India, where people come to worship him as God. I retired much early and came to this place in mid India. He had my address and has written to me about his current activities. There was another thing that was noticed about him that he wanted to know if his head is radiating any radioactivity and was tested for neutron emission from his head in the nuclear safety research and health physics labs at Kalpakkam by Dr. Meenakshi Sundaram and others. He has shown me those results and he published them in the magazine "The Nature" in which he concluded that his head emits neutrons, because the data were actually have shown a peak of some energy, of which exact details I no longer remember now. I did went to his house once to hear the divine sound, which he claimed he was hearing all the time and I could only hear the rattling sound of an old fan and nothing else. He then played recorded tapes with divine sounds and I found that those tapes also had the same sound track. One thing became sure for me that divinity originates in one's own mind and other's may never ever perceive the same thing. I think he was suffering from Schizophrenia or some other medical syndrome, but can't say much as I am not a medical expert. I am a nuclear scientist and a radiological physicist and my knowledge is limited to treatment of cancer cells by radiation.

Assuming that people can think things differently or associate things to some meaning they only know. Brain may also be of different capability like the one of the Lady Shakuntala Devi, then some people also can be very special engineers by birth, who may supper exceed all others who get similar training. This gives one extra chance to those who have fitting mind for engineering with or without degree and even without experience. You do not require an experience of moon landing to think about moon. Forget about sun landing if landing to the place is only way for you to think.

My vision perception was very rapid and I felt very comfortable with computer screens and movies, as I could see the changing frames and not an stable screen. Now that have died down with age and now I feel OK and work with computers easily.

I think the brain wiring for us may differ considerably and some may have exceptionally excellent wiring.

These occurences are quite common here too. People professing to have divine gifts. So many texts say it was once so, but now it seems these people are mostly just disturbed.

our reality is the result of our perceptions. If I say I can fly, and jump off a high place and die the world will see a fool. But in my mind I have, perhaps flown some great distance. (and am dead all the same)

On a different subject, I have just added some links to a thread titled 'educational osmosis'. The links are about some rats that have implants inserted in the brain so they are controlled by men from a distance of 300m or so.

It is a pleasure to share dialogue with you.

Yes, you can use both electrical and chemical stimulus to affect the brain to behave differently. You may be able to create virtual reality by stimulus. Like Holographic images, the brain stimulated images can as very much like the real one. You can also fire the stored memory. Brain usually have excellent chemical barrier and only few things make easy entry and one of the was Vitamin B. Imagine if you can wire more brains to each other, like whales brain to man's brain and then you can sense the length of the ocean, profile of the sea like very large ultrasound probe. We still do not know much of what is going on in the brain so rapidly. We only know that something happens somewhere for some partially known purpose. Our gross outer perception of reality and inner analyses of facts and interference differ considerably. Inner machine is hard wired and has some flexibility in its programs and is controlled by something that we known as thoughts. We do not know how thoughts are governed but looks like that we have some control over them and can control them using our intelligence or at least we can control the outcome of the thoughts expressed to the work on the bases of our civil behaviour.

One good thing to note that all information in computers is in bits, but no bit can tell about my program. Perhaps same thing is about the proteins in the genes that make chromosomes. Perhaps, chromosomes in the fertilized mother cell alone can not tell all about the men or women. Something else in the environment also gets added up in those nine months and then in the outer world. I am afraid that we face more short of a chemical war on what we should have been the primary seed of self in the mother's womb and the outcome may change our personality to great extent. This chemical war continues all the time even after our birth. We all know about the antigen development in the body, but we hardly know about all things that are modernizing our basic genetic code chains. We know what our great great grand children will be looking to work on in the future and it is not yet time to do all that in this life, so let us get reborn ourselves in the form of our own children again and again to find out more about ourselves. The journey goes on and on and on and we travel in time in different forms slightly different each time we enter into new shell. Funny thing is that I can see my own rebirth but I am not able to realize that the meaning of the current life has remained only to be sacrificed as I have moved in the journey to the next life already and I can see it all with my eyes open and in the form of my own children. What more meaning I have left over in this form? Perhaps, I have to educate my new form to my level and to let the new form to move on from there to a much higher level. This responsibility will only make us to move further in knowledge and I must tell my next reborn self to do the same thing some time later to the next of theirs. Each experience of the rebirth is a fresh one, and even though we know each other, and link to each other, we carry only intuitive memory to begin new life afresh and no personality of being the same person. Perhaps this loss of personality is more due to involvement of two persons in the birth of one. We can also have multiple forms but none by one individual. We have to see, how this personality will change when we find ways to duplicate from one individual without the need of the other. Personality which is acquired knowledge may still remain behind, or we never may know the difference in two forms about the difference in feeling about the self. I am myself and you are yourself and is this myself and yourself is same? Perhaps not the same thing.

Bio-chemistry, bio-physics and bio-engineering may be contributing much greater knowledge in coming years than what we know now. We have just made a small beginning now.

I would like to think that I could add something to this thread, but I can not. I see myself in all of these replies. James