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How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 8:59 AM

Every wave needs the mechanical equivalent of inertia and elasticity for it to propagate through its medium. For an electromagnetic medium such as space, the electromagnetic equivalent of inertia and elasticity is capacitance and inductance. These are the permittivity and permeability characteristics of space. But what are the equivalent characteristics for gravitational wave propagation through space? Whatever these constants represent as gravity's equivalent of the inertia and elasticity of space I'm sure different substances in space would have different values for these constants. So the speed of gravity would probably be slowed through things like massive objects.

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#1

Re: How do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 9:16 AM

gravity doesn't have an equivalent, open another fortune cookie and try again

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#2
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Re: How do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 9:28 AM

Thank you Lord, I opened the Bible and didn't see your mention of gravitational waves thence. Never thought of the fortune cookie route. Your work in mysterious ways.

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#3

Re: How do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 11:02 AM

By bending space-time, just like jiggles propagate in a bowl of jello.

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#4
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Re: How do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 11:23 AM

The Santa Claus "explanation" isn't much different from the God "explanation."

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#5
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Re: How do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 11:25 AM

Jello is just the medium. The mechanical properties of its inertia and elasticity is how the jiggles propagate. Spacetime is just the medium for both light and gravity. The electromagentic medium's electromagnetic properties of permittivity and permeability correspond to the mechanical properties of inertia and elasticity of a mechanical medium. That's how an electromagnetic wave propagates through an electromagnetic medium. Similarly the gravitational medium's gravitational properties, constants with names yet unknown, would also correspond to the mechanical properties of inertia and elasticity of a mechanical medium.

A further mystery is that light self-propagates by collapse of its electrical field generating its magnetic field and vice versa. But what would the collapse of a gravitational field stimulate to keep the gravitational wave propagating similar to light?

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#6
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Re: How do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 11:47 AM

Think of how a mechanical wave propagates where inertia and elasticity are in constant collapse and regeneration. At the top of each wave, inertia loses the battle as elasticity starts collapsing it. At the halfway point, inertia is in full swing and pushes the wave to its deepest trough before elasticity takes over again. For light, the battle is between the electro force and the magnetic force. There is a missing counter-force in the gravity wave that would allow it to oscillate and propagate.

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#7
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Re: How do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 12:20 PM

gravity is possibly being active in other dimensions.

at our size, we cannot "see" these dimensions, but it is possible that the gravity effects are operating through these other "small-scale " dimensions. oscillating as you say between the dimensions.

it is also possible that the other forces - emw etc - are also acting though these dimensions or other ones - upto 27 dimensions ?.

the properties we can appreciate are leaking through these dimensions to ours, but we only see the relatively small scale effects when a large number are grouped together.

it's an interesting line of enquiry from what I can gather.

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#17
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Re: How do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 8:50 AM

This reminds me a bit of string theory, which I suspect is entirely too complex to be the correct one. It is my feeling, intuition if you will, that the "correct" theory will be relatively simple.

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#8

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 1:18 PM

Gravity waves are a distortion in space-time.

Space-time is the media by which they propagate.

I honestly don't know the details, but on a high level, gravity waves represent a change in mass or energy at a given location in space-time.

You might look up graviton if you want to learn more about the theory. Bare in mind that the graviton is simply a hypothetical spin-2 massless boson, but you can think of it as a tool for trying to devolve gravity.

Unfortunately, no one has a good understanding of gravity, so many questions remain unanswered.

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#51
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 8:03 AM

And, perhaps we could infer something with this g=m/F. Gravity waves is actually a mass related distortion in space. It is the property of space to resolve everything to ground zero or nothing.

The more mass you have the greater the force of space acting upon it at a constant rate?

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#52
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 8:59 AM

Why did this get an off-topic rating. I actually like this answer. Mass pushes on space and space pushes back hence a wave when mass moves. I like it a lot. So simple, no controversy.

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#54
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 9:15 AM

Edit: Wait that definitely explains the first wave but what continues the propagation at the speed of light. Just like the formula for light propagation in an EM medium, there need to be two constants that are analogous for permittivity and permeability in a gravitational medium whose formula equals the speed of light. If I remember the light speed formula is c= 1/ sq rt of permittivity constant times permeability constant (don't have time to verify). So, similarly c= 1/sq rt of gravitivity constant times graveability constant (whatever those are).

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#9

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 1:30 PM

I don't know if this is your answer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93energy_tensor

My very limited understanding is that energy is stored in a gravitational field by bending spacetime. When the amount of this "bending" changes, the change is propagated outward at the speed of light.

Think about the energy required climbing a hill. Where does this energy go when you are at the top? You get it back when you walk back down the hill. My mental picture is that the gravity field of the earth is slightly strengthened by the addition of that energy, spacetime is warped a tiny bit more.

It's the same situation when you pull two magnets apart. The energy required increases the energy stored in the total magnetic field.

Just my ideas...

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#10

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 3:18 PM

In gravity wave propagation, is not dark energy to gravity, as magnetic field is to electrical field in light propagation?

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/

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#11

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 5:48 PM

Gravity "waves" are the modulations of the space-time fabric.

An electrical "RF-wave" analogy: space is E-field and time is H-field, or vice-versa.

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#12

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 9:11 PM

"Every wave needs the mechanical equivalent of inertia and elasticity for it to propagate through its medium"

Can you prove this?

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#13
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 9:59 PM

So far it's true for mechanical and electromagnetic waves so why not for gravitational as well? Take a read on electro mechanical equivalence and look at maxwell's equation for light propagation and how it matches the mechanical wave propagation formula.

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#15
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 12:23 AM

Electromagnetic waves are different to mechanical oscillations because they do not have a medium through which they propagate. This was controversial in the early days of investigating the properties of light. No other type of wave (except for gravitational waves) has a constant velocity regardless of the relative velocities of the observer. I believe that this is enough of a difference to invalidate your initial assumption.

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#14

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/26/2016 11:54 PM

Until Mankind gets down to gravity based propulsion, or maybe antigravity, engineers will be spared having to master this depth of physics.

Are you taunting or showing off or both ?

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#16
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 7:26 AM

I guess taunting in the hopes that I could flush out someone on this forum who engages in open minded scientific discussion instead of dogma and belief based fringe science. Maybe there are some things we aren't supposed to know and with that attitude we won't.

I also suppose I am showing off in that I assumed courses I took in engineering included electrical circuit modelling of physical systems. Maybe that's some highfalutin advanced theoretical course in the State's curriculum so excuse me for assuming it was basic knowledge.

And to BobD, "Light has no medium?" It has no mechanical medium but it is an electromagnetic medium. How do you explain maxwell's equations for the propagation of light containing the constants of permittivity and permeability. A void would have no constants or characteristics, it would be devoid of them hence the definition of void.

As I've said in the past I'm only looking for informed discussion, not peanut-gallery pot shots and non-scientific dogma. So please feel free to shun me as I am an absolutely horrible person to deal with.

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#18
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 8:52 AM

If you were as smart as you think you are, you would have recognized who participates here and would have searched out a forum that meets your intellectual criteria.

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#19
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 9:20 AM

I admire Jorrie, I found him here, so, I guess, mission accomplished.This is supposed to be an engineering forum but mostly I find experts on tailgate recipes for Nascar. The forums you speak of, if I could find them, wouldn't even let me in the door.

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#21
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 10:20 AM

You seem to have a dilemma on your hands.

I suggest that you grill some burgers and brats and slam down a few Old Milwaukee Lights and go take a nap.

Gravity, and your attitude, will probably still be there when you wake up.

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#27
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 12:25 PM

Lyn you seem to confuse personal attacks with constructive contributions to the subject at hand. Truly, if you have no real opinion or knowledge and have not read the proof you asked me for, why are you still posting here? Isn't there some race on TV you could glue your eyes to instead?

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#32
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 1:40 PM

Well, if the two childish, petty insults you directed toward the entire forum are, "constructive contributions to the subject at hand".

"peanut-gallery pot shots and non-scientific dogma"

"I find experts on tailgate recipes for Nascar"

I think I hear your mother calling you in for your nap.

Bye. I'll leave now so that you can take your nappy in peace.

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#63
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 5:35 AM

I just saw this. I didn't know you took pot shots at the peanut gallery so personally. You guys are so tight, one for all and all for one sort of thing. I apologize that I hurt you so deeply that you felt you had to take the time to glean through my posts to highlight my horrifying insults forcing you to cut and run. I'd like to re-iterate that I'd prefer if the entire peanut gallery not engage me in trading personal insults on my threads unless they have some substantial to contribute to them. Once again I am deeply sorry.

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#66
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:28 AM

Wait until you get the the Physics Forum.

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#68
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:33 AM

I'm afraid it's going to be another circle jerk where the guy who can spew the most dogma and consensual science will try to shut everyone else down from unloading.

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#69
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:39 AM

I'm going to wait a bit until I finish my Relativity: Coming to terms posts which should take a few more weeks. Jorrie is great at setting me straight as I've been wrong about relativity every step of the way so far.

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#74
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 10:10 AM

It's amazing how you apologize to one while insulting the rest of us. If you can't take constructive criticism here, you won't last 1 minute in the Physics Forums. Not everyone is as gentle as Jorrie. It's mostly you that is taking pot-shots. Grow up.

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#76
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 10:19 AM

Really, I have to explain sarcasm to you guys as well. Wow.

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#23
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 11:18 AM

Try the Physics Forums. They let me in, so they will let you in. However, they are not tolerant of people with their own theories.

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#25
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 12:14 PM

Can I have a link? Nor should they be tolerant of fringe theories. However, they should be tolerant of challenges to existing theories and be able to knock them down using logic not scintto_religious doctrine.

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#42
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 6:06 PM

Here is the Physics Forum link.

It looks like their server is down for the time being.

However, there are some very highly educated people (some appear to be tenured professors) there and you should either get:

a. A highly detailed explanation, or
b. a severe lashing.

As was said earlier, they don't tolerate people with off-the-cuff ad-hoc theories. They expect any claims to be substantiated by scholarly publications.

However, they are very kind to honest questions about established science.

That means if you ask about Cold Fusion, perpetual motion, etc., you will get shut down like a boulder falling on an egg.

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#79
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 2:10 PM

Recently I have subscribed to this forum too. It seems to be much helpful about many issues.

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#26
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 12:19 PM

siiiil-verrrr-haaa-merrr

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#29
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 12:52 PM

Peeeeea-nutttttt-gallllll-errrrie

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#20
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 10:10 AM

One of the conceptual problems with quantum mechanics is understanding the dual nature of the photon. It has the properties of both a particle and a wave. As a 'particle', it does not need a 'medium' in order for it to propagate. (Just as a bullet can move through water, air, or empty space.)

And yet, though it has the properties of a particle, it also has the properties of a wave. Note I said 'properties' of a wave. It is not a 'wave' in the macroscopic sense.

If it eases your mind, you can picture the space-time continuum as a sea of virtual particles upon which the wave traverses. The permittivity and permeability of 'empty space' can be conceptualized as the interaction of a photon with this sea of virtual particles.

A gravitational wave can be conceptualized this same way. But this is just a human concept for phenomena humans are only beginning to understand.

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#24
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 11:55 AM

The standard model is all about for every field there is a corresponding particle. The Higgs field was postulated but it could not be confirmed into the standard model until the Higgs particle was discovered. The wave is a description of probability of where the particle may be found within a field. The particle is the collapse of the wave function and represents a 100% probability of the position of the particle. Photons do not fly like bullets. The wave always represents their motion. Particles are not subject to the doppler effect and the photon does not travel like a particle. It's speed is dependent on its medium just like a sound wave or a water wave. No wave is dependent on the speed of the source which generated it. Neurinos, unlike photons, are particles whose speed is not dependent on a medium. Light has different max speeds through different mediums with different values of permittivity and permeability.

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#37
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 3:55 PM

No, you have too many misconceptions to bother straightening out. Go read some books on advanced physics. I'd suggest starting with the Mr Tomkins books by Gamov, then read the Feynman Lectures, then maybe some by Roger Penrose.

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#40
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 4:19 PM

You should try reading Quantum Story bt Baggott. Best book I ever read.

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#43
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 6:14 PM

You wrote, "The wave is a description of probability of where the particle may be found within a field. The particle is the collapse of the wave function and represents a 100% probability of the position of the particle."

Not exactly.

For one thing, the probability is not defined within the domain of a field. It's broader than that.

Secondly, Heisenberg tells us that we must be careful about describing the position of a particle. I'm sure you are familiar with his principle, so I assume you were just being a little sloppy with the statement.

"Particles are not subject to the doppler effect..."

Are you sure about that?

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#45
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 6:28 PM

Yes sloppy.

Yes, particles speed is dependent on the speed of the source and not what the medium allows. This is separate from the she speed of light speed limit. Wavespeed is constant relative to the medium while particle speed is is additive with the particle's source speed. Again this is sloppy language because speed is always relative to something but I'm sure you get my meaning.

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#55
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 9:16 AM

You said:"... the photon does not travel like a particle. It's speed is dependent on its medium just like a sound wave or a water wave... Light has different max speeds through different mediums with different values of permittivity and permeability..."

Actually not. The photons are travelling always at speed c. I.e. in the empty space between the atoms of a dense medium, the photon's speed is c. However, there is a delay due to the absorption and re-transmission of the photons from the medium's atoms, so the average speed of the photons inside this medium is smaller than that inside the vacuum.

You said: "... The particle is the collapse of the wave function and represents a 100% probability of the position of the particle..."

It seems that you believe that the wave is something more real than the particle (in a sense, the particle becomes real only after a detection/observation, i.e. only after the collapse of the Schrodinger's wave-function). But, actually, both the waves and the particles are equally real. My personal perspective is that the particles are more real than the waves, because -e.g.- in the "two slit experiment" the existence of the particle (photon) is detectable (and obvious) even if just one photon is passing through the slit(s), whilst the interference fringes become obvious (as a light pattern) only after the transmission of a vast amount of photons. (It's like the wave is something that "accompanies" and characterizes the behavior of a particle.)

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#92
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/03/2016 11:06 AM

So that delay just happens to coincide with the permittivity and permeability characteristics of the medium? This would mean permittivity and permeability are tied to absorption and emission of photons. Then how could space, without atoms, have permittivity and permeability characteristics?

Yes waves and particles are equally real when not being looked for. However, when we're specifically looking for wave characteristics, the particle characteristics are not observable and hence not real. When we're looking for particle characteristics, the wave is not observable and not real. I guess that means permittivity and permeability are wave characteristics.

I think, but I'm not sure, they can make a single photon create an interference pattern. This is because a single wave passes through both slits and, as a wave, it creates an interference pattern on the other side. If you call me names, I'll go look it up to back up what I'm saying.

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#93
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/03/2016 11:36 AM

Ok I just googled single photon interference pattern. It's real.

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#94
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/04/2016 4:44 AM

I also googled quantum eraser experiment which proves that a double slit experiment can be over and it's how you look at the results afterwards that affects whether you see an interference pattern or not. The popular myth is that observation in progress affects results whereas observation actually doesn't affect results, it only reveals half the results that are already there.

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#95
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/04/2016 5:36 AM

Hi ralfcis. AFAIK, the tranmission of a single photon -in the two-slit experiment- gives us just one spot on the screen-film. In order to get the interference pattern you have to transmit a lot of photons, even one-by-one. (I think that it's impossible to get an interference pattern via the transmission of just one photon. This mean that the photon should be "splitted" to many other "sub-photons" which is not possible because the photon is the minimum quantity of energy (quantum) of the transmitted light.)

If you have found something about the "single photon interference pattern" please share it with us.

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#97
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/04/2016 11:09 AM

Just google what I googled and there's plenty of evidence. The wavefunction of a single photon passes through both slits and causes an interference pattern as any wave would.

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#98
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/09/2016 4:09 AM

Yes, the wavefunction of a single photon passes through both slits (it's like the photon is "splitted" in two halves and each half passes through a different slit) but right on the screen the photon is detected as a whole (i.e. as a single entity). Again, if you have found something reliable about this issue, please, share the link with us.

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#99
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/09/2016 7:44 AM

The pattern is seen over time when there are many single photons but the pattern is caused by each single photon wave interfering with itself. Other wise the photon would hit the same spot with every single photon shot. Now some believe the photons are traveling into the future in anticipation that future photons are coming and it's with these future photons that the future interference pattern will reveal itself. The same theory holds that present photons are also interacting with both past and future photons to create the pattern. There's also the multiverse photons coming into the picture but, so far, those ideas are outside science.

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#100
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/09/2016 9:06 AM

The reason a single photon appears is that the interfered wave must collapse into a photon because that's what the detector is geared to detect. Another type of detector, geared to see waves will show the interfered single photon wave although I have no evidence of what this detector is or if that experiment has ever been done. It's just plain old quantum physics.

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#102
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/12/2016 6:49 AM

The light is always detected as single photons. This is how the light behaves. There is no way to build a detector which could be able to detect the "interference pattern" of a single photon (if such a thing exists). As you said, the wave is collapsing right on the detector and a single photon is detected.

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#103
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/12/2016 9:10 AM

quantum physics is all about the detector. If the single photon waves were not interfering with themselves as waves they would not be appearing as photons at different places on the detector that later reveal the order of an interference pattern. The other part of the experiment is to use a detector before the double slit which collapses the wave into its photon and the results at the 2nd detector is a pile of uninterfered photons.

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#104
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/12/2016 4:49 PM

You said: "quantum physics is all about the detector. If the single photon waves were not interfering with themselves as waves they would not be appearing as photons at different places on the detector that later reveal the order of an interference pattern. "

That's correct. (The official explanation of QM is that even a single photon should be considered as a wave before the detection. The photon becomes again a particle only after the detection.) However, (as I have already said) you'll never see an interference pattern from the detection of just one photon. You have to detect many photons in order to get the interference pattern.

You said: "The other part of the experiment is to use a detector before the double slit which collapses the wave into its photon and the results at the 2nd detector is a pile of uninterfered photons."

This is also correct. The detection of the photon by the 1st detector results to the collapse of the wavefunction and no interference pattern is shown on the 2nd detector.

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#101
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/12/2016 6:37 AM

I don't understand what this "experiment" shows (as you have not sent us a link to take a look at it). You said:

"The pattern is seen over time when there are many single photons but the pattern is caused by each single photon wave interfering with itself. Other wise the photon would hit the same spot with every single photon shot..."

I suppose that you mean that plenty of photons are sent by the transmitter but in a "one-by-one" way (i.e. one at a time). In this case, every single photon depicts a single spot on the screen. And this spot is not the same for every single photon, i.e. every single photon is detected on a different point on the screen. As the amount of the detected photons is increased, all these sparse points start to depict the well-known interference pattern (fringes). So, the interference pattern is formed after the detection of many photons (even if they are emitted one-by-one). This is the result from the "old, good, classic 2-slit experiment".

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#96
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/04/2016 5:58 AM

I have to re-consider something that I said in my post#55:

"Actually not. The photons are travelling always at speed c. I.e. in the empty space between the atoms of a dense medium, the photon's speed is c. However, there is a delay due to the absorption and re-transmission of the photons from the medium's atoms, so the average speed of the photons inside this medium is smaller than that inside the vacuum."

Unfortunately, this is a rather wrong and misdeading estimation that I had till now. I had a discussion in a Physics forum about this issue and they informed me that this is not a correct approach. The light is not interacted with the individual atoms of a transparrent medium but with the lattice of the medium as a whole. And -in this case- the correct approach is to consider the light as wave (and not as a stream of photons) in order to explain the refraction of light. (The concept of "the absorption and re-transmission of the photons from the medium's atoms" is quite widespread -and that's why I presented it here- but, unfortunately, is not the correct one.)

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#105
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

05/12/2016 5:00 PM

Because of this misleading part of my post#55, I decided to "downgrade" it myself (as an off-topic). So, it's not a GA anymore. I think that's fair.

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#83
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:20 PM

Thank you for that explanation. I read about the gravity waves. Would they not exhibit similar properties of EM? the article I read stated they start out with an "infinite" frequency (zero wavelength?) that drops to wavelength that can be measured as parts of an atom

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#50
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 1:25 AM

It took Einstein and others to finally prove that light has no medium. Maxwell believed it did. I cannot prove this as I do not have the high level mathematics required but others have so I suggest checking out answers in credible scientific sources about why light doesn't have (or need) a medium to propagate.

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#59
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 2:03 PM

You can only say light has no medium if space is empty. It is not. The concept of the ether was given up after the Michaelson and Morley experiment. Maxwell was the first to conclude that light is an EM wave. His math showed its speed. Space has energy. I believe that virtual particles are the medium for light.

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#22

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 11:12 AM

downwards..I should say.

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#28

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 12:44 PM

We may need to remember that "wave" is just a word, an analogy to what we see on ponds and oceans; the displacement that propagates in that medium. We use it (for example) to describe the propagation of electromagnetic fields, for which the existence of any medium through which it might propagate has been conclusively eliminated.

Einstein predicted that light would be bent when passing near a massive body like the Sun, and expeditions were dispatched where total eclipses could be observed with instruments to determine whether his prediction was correct. Some of the results were marred by observational errors, but his mathematics has since been verified by other observations. His mathematics also explained a discrepancy of the precession of the orbit of Mercury around the Sun, and the Red Shift of light escaping a gravitational field.

One prediction of General Relativity said we might be able to observe was the existence of gravitational waves. (We currently believe that where fields exert force on objects, they can also be explained by the transfer of particles carrying the energy necessary to change their paths. For electromagnetism we call those particles photons. A similar name for the particle exchanged between objects affected by gravity is "gravitons.")

One problem with the last prediction has been our failure to detect gravitational waves, a failure which has now been overcome.

It is useful, sometimes, in thinking of these things, to imagine that space itself is stretched in directions we may or may not be able to understand intuitively. Electromagnetism, for example, may be thought of as a rotation in in a direction we are not able to perceive directly. Gravity may be easier to understand.

Einstein showed that gravity affects the size of space itself. Another way of looking at that is to imagine that the path of least energy in space affected by gravity is bent by an amount proportional to the strength of the gravitational field. The Principle of Least Energy describes the effect of assuming that particles travel by all paths available to them in proportion to the probability that they will do so; gravity affects the probability that they take some paths more than others. The path of least energy near a massive object is curved as a result of the force of gravity upon the space through which it travels, and one result of this curvature has now been demonstrated; changes in the gravitational fields of masses at a distance - extremely massive objects - affected sensors located some distance apart on Earth differently from each other as the gravitational wave passed them.

Another way of describing that might be to say that gravitons arriving at each detector arrived at different times.

Please note that I am not a scientist, and that I hardly have the education to understand the mathematics involved; everything I say here has been gleaned from popular scientific articles, publications, and descriptions of phenomena discussed. Assume that I am wrong in the details. I believe myself to be correct only so far as my explanation is an aid to understanding by those of us who are not scientists. I welcome one that works better!

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#30
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 12:59 PM

Yes these are the popular versions but what isn't commonly known is that Einstein went back to acknowledging the electromagnetic medium for light. The confusion is that ether was the proposed mechanical medium for light which was disproved.

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#31
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 1:09 PM

Pretty sure that "the ether" as it used to be used was a term for what we now call space.

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#34
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 2:43 PM

Pretty sure you should google things and remove all doubt. Sheesh!

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#38
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 4:00 PM

Go-ogle is no better than the Bible, and in some ways laughably inferior.

Why in the name of all that's practical should the general forum give a care about your questions? There are some that do care, just out of curiosity I would guess, but you should Personal Message them and start up a chat room. It can't be that hard, and you won't have to deal with a peanut gallery.

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#39
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 4:13 PM

Sure if you believe everything you read without critical thinking involved. So what is the source you trust? Your gut? If you look on the forums there are many discussions about gravitational waves. Or maybe you disagree that they're there because it's in print form and you haven't seen it. I'm not forcing you to read anything. If you don't like this thread, don't read it. If you are interested, I can lead you to the information but I can't understand it for you. Sorry.

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#61
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 4:56 AM

Here I looked it up for you:

Aether theories in physics propose the existence of a medium, the aether (also spelled ether, from the Greek word (αἰθήρ), meaning "upper air" or "pure, fresh air"[1]), a space-filling substance or field, thought to be necessary as a transmission medium for the propagation of electromagnetic or gravitational forces.

General relativity

Main article: Einstein's views on the aether

Einstein sometimes used the word aether for the gravitational field within general relativity, but this terminology never gained widespread support.[5]

We may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an aether. According to the general theory of relativity space without aether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this aether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.[6]

Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in Physics, endowed chair in physics, Stanford University, had this to say about ether in contemporary theoretical physics:

It is ironic that Einstein's most creative work, the general theory of relativity, should boil down to conceptualizing space as a medium when his original premise [in special relativity] was that no such medium existed [..] The word 'ether' has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity. This is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum. . . . Relativity actually says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of matter pervading the universe, only that any such matter must have relativistic symmetry. [..] It turns out that such matter exists. About the time relativity was becoming accepted, studies of radioactivity began showing that the empty vacuum of space had spectroscopic structure similar to that of ordinary quantum solids and fluids. Subsequent studies with large particle accelerators have now led us to understand that space is more like a piece of window glass than ideal Newtonian emptiness. It is filled with 'stuff' that is normally transparent but can be made visible by hitting it sufficiently hard to knock out a part. The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo.[9]

Sorry, I'm with Einstein on this one. People didn't support his lambda theory either until space was found to expand.

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#44
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 6:27 PM

I am not so sure it is accurate to say gravity is a forc.

It would be if you are using Newtonian physics to solve a problem, but that's not what Einstein describe it as.

Gravity is warping of space-time and is the metric tensor field gμν(x,y,z,t).

Gravitons are basically a unit of measure with an energy of E = hf. I think they really are a hypothetical particle (we haven't discovered them like the Higgs), but it would seem that the detection of gravity waves does help reinforce that theory. Again, that's not proof, but it doesn't blow a hole in that theory.

Space-time really isn't a field, but a metric tensor.

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#33

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 2:01 PM

Hi ralfcis. The propagation of an e/m wave is essentially the propagation of its carriers (i.e. the photons, which travel at speed c). As for the wave approach, there is a propagation of the variations of the electric and magnetic field (as a unified e/m field) through the medium (empty space or several materials). The e/m wave's propagation properties (absorption, refraction e.t.c.) depend on the medium.

Concerning the gravity, the gravitational wave is the propagation of the variations (changes) of a gravitational field. As the gravitational field is -essentially- the curvature of the space and the space is, also, the medium of this propagation, this means that the medium propagates its own variations. (So, you see the difference from an e/m propagation.) In this case, it is supposed that the carriers (of such a wave) are the gravitons (which, also, travel at speed c). There are, also, several properties concerning the propagation of the gravitational wave.

See the link below:

http://www.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de/~kokkotas/Teaching/NS.BH.GW_files/GW_Physics.pdf

(Chapter 2.2: Properties of gravitational waves.)

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#35
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 2:46 PM

Ok I'll take a look. Thanks.

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#36
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 2:58 PM

I hate to postulate completely baseless conjecture but your post triggered a thought in me. So far space is permeated with 3 known fields: Higgs, em and gravitational. Only EM and gravitational propagate waves. The Higgs field gives particles their mass and mass is associated with gravity so what if the Higgs field is the complementary field I'm looking for that propagates gravitational waves. Gravity would thus correspond to the elasticity of the gravitational medium and the Higgs field would correspond to the inertia of the gravitational medium. This is just wild speculation, no need to respond.

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#46
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 6:37 PM

"So far space is permeated with 3 known fields: Higgs, em and gravitational."

Again, I am not so sure gravity can be considered a field any more than it can be considered a force. You have to be careful how you phrase such things.

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#47
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 7:09 PM

I've always been confused by that. If Einstein proved gravity is nothing more than gradient of spacetime, then how can it be a force like the other 3 forces? He also proved it's no different than plain old acceleration. Why would quantum physics call it a force and look for gravitons.? Do you know the answer?

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#49
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 9:32 PM

Part of the problem is that no one really knows what gravity is any more than we know what time is.

Also, the macro world and the micro world do not appear to operate with the same set of physical rules. It's one of the reasons String Theory was conceived.

Gravity remains an enigma in that we can explain or more accurately predict its behavior, but not with a common set of tools (i.e., relativity versus quantum physics).

Take your pick of theories; discrete quantum cells, quantum foam, vibrating strings, or loop quantum gravity... Doesn't stop there, either. There are many more theories that have at least some academic standing behind them.

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#53
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 9:02 AM

Ha, yes!

Sans degree or engineering coursework, having dropped out of HS at 17 to join the Army, I nevertheless fell into a post-military career in electromagnetic compatibility engineering. I can't CALL myself an engineer, of course -- but my employers have.
I have been amazed, horrified or disgusted at the lack of understanding many of my degreed co-workers had of what seemed to me as elementary as Grade School science of HS Physics (my Jr. year HS grades were too low to take that) and Physics 101 -- which the National Merit Society paid for me to take during the vacation. Starting at age 11, I'd read my dad's 1936 Physics 101 text many times, playing with electricity and electronics, learning the easy way, the best way a child can, before I was 13.
Relevance: I ascribe lack of understanding to a tendency not to learn from observation and synthesis of knowledge, and blame that on an educational system the emphasizes rote memorization. My grades were low because I can't do that, something I learned only a few years ago is not uncommon among those of us with high functioning autism.
How is this relevant?I like to talk to parents about their children and they like to talk about them, so it's a good opener. We commiserate on the dismal performance of students in all too many schools, and then I ambush them with a very simple problem in physics: "Why and how does a dropped ball bounce?"

About a third of parents I ask can't answer the question, but almost the same fraction of their 8 to 10 year old children CAN, though some may require coaxing. Children are 1) still curious and 2) closer to the experience; they can feel the difference between a tennis ball and (say) a Nerf(tm) ball, and it is not much of a leap from that difference to why one will bounce and the other won't.

I stayed curious. I wondered where the energy that accelerates a flowerpot against gravity comes from when we put it on a hallway table. Obviously, the act of lifting it takes energy and obviously, we can get tired if we have to do that too often. But when the children think at me -- I can hear it -- "What a stupid grown-up to ask what makes it fall?" they are missing the mark; it's not a stupid question. You're right. We don't know what gravity is, only what it does.
Me, I suspect it's a consequence of conservation of energy in a closed system; that's my working hypothesis, anyway and it doesn't have to be RIGHT -- just useful.

And I've the imagination to come up with it; always have. In 6th Grade a perceptive teacher had me talk about ion propulsion to a 7th Grade Science Club. Lo and behold! That's flying now.

But I wonder how many schoolchildren are having the imagination leached out of the them in the guise of education. Almost every "save" I made for my employers has been basic physics, neither Einstein nor Maxwell, but Watt and Faraday. Maybe even (a made-up) Grandma: "You put that electron back before he screams for his Mother!"

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#56
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 12:30 PM

I like this post a lot. ITS TOTALLY ON topic. Why does a ball bounce is the same reason a wave propagates which is fundamental physics and doesn't seem to be grasped by many. Inertia and elasticity is why a ball bounces. Trendy physics, dark matter, dark energy, any thing that is unknown is a catch all explanation for everything else that is unknown. Understanding and critical thinking has been replaced by popular trivia regurgitation which makes meaningful open-minded discussion nearly impossible.

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#57
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 12:51 PM

There may be no consensus on the nature of gravity but there is a consensus that gravity waves exist. It is only my belief that the formula for gravity waves travelling at the speed of light would have the same form as the propagation of the speed of light formula except with different universal constants. These constants are as yet unknown but would be analogous to inertia and elasticity in the wavespeed formula for mechanical waves in mechanical media and permittivity and permeability for the EM wavespeed formula for an EM medium. I understand that popular consensus is that there is no EM medium. I disagree with that consensus because it doesn't appeal to my critical thinking.

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#88
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

03/02/2016 10:24 AM

From a post I marked "Off topic"

:...I ambush them with a very simple problem in physics: "Why and how does a dropped ball bounce?"

About a third of parents I ask can't answer the question, but almost the same fraction of their 8 to 10 year old children CAN, though some may require coaxing. Children are 1) still curious and 2) closer to the experience; they can feel the difference between a tennis ball and (say) a Nerf(tm) ball, and it is not much of a leap from that difference to why one will bounce and the other won't.

I stayed curious. I wondered where the energy that accelerates a flowerpot against gravity comes from when we put it on a hallway table. Obviously, the act of lifting it takes energy and obviously, we can get tired if we have to do that too often.

The problem of the dropped ball leads to some understanding of the relationship of forces to each other. A rocket could accelerate my flowerpot to the same height as a stool, but the energy it would take to keep it there indefinitely would add up to quite a startling amount over time. A stool is not a rocket, and to quote Wikipedia, "..:the Pauli exclusion principle is responsible for the fact that ordinary bulk matter is stable and occupies volume"

Pauli's exclusion principle explains why flowerpot and stool aren't compressed into uniform, unitary objects with the bulk of the Earth. It is still an acceleration; where does the energy come from? Is it possible that what we call gravity is conservation of energy required by the expansion of the universe?

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#41

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 5:03 PM

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#48
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/27/2016 7:10 PM

<Buh Bye>

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#58

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 1:39 PM

Don't you just love wannabe philosophy minors who fancy that mere strings of words constitute empirical knowledge?

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#60
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/28/2016 2:32 PM

I got the answer I wanted here. Sorry you couldn't understand the words but some did and I'm fine with it.

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#75
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 10:15 AM

I keep thinking about Mr. Small's answer that has been hidden by those who labelled it off topic. A bowling ball rolling atop a sandy plane will create a trough and a peak in the sand. This single wave will not propagate through the sand because though it has inertia, the sand has no elasticity. Change the sand to shallow water and the rolling bowling ball will create a self propagating wave through the water which has both inertia and elasticity.

The water has limited resistance to the bowling ball. The resistance of space to the squeeze of gravity seems to be very strong. The Pauli exclusion principle is what keeps matter from just dissolving into all other matter. It takes the tremendous force of gravity to crush atomic shells, nucleon shells, and neutron shells into black holes yet "foamy" space seems to have as much resistance to being crushed as solid matter. Off topic but maybe there's a clue in here somewhere to what is the elasticity of space itself.

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#77
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 10:45 AM

Mr. Small's answer was not hidden by other people voting it as OT. He self-voted it OT, which counts as 5 votes. Somebody else voted it as a GA, giving a net (for the moment) of -4 votes.

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#85
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

03/01/2016 12:33 AM

Just a thought: An unlimited resistance to something is still a resistance. No elasticity is still a zero elasticity, the same way as two parallel lines still meet at a point in infinity.

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#62

Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 5:09 AM

As AH mentioned in #49, there are some interesting theories - one of them is John Macken's "Only Spacetime" book which you can download (as "pdf") from www.onlyspacetime.com. You will not only find what gravitational waves are and how they propagate but also what gravity is "in fact", along with many other explanations regarding the universe and its evolution. You will find the impedance of spacetime (which was already calculated years ago by somebody else), what are "in fact" inertia, subatomic particles, the expansion of the universe, etc.

I hope you will find it interesting too. After all, if his theory is correct it is a revolution in the world of physics.

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#64
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 6:42 AM

I like what I see so far.

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#67
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:32 AM

Let's see what you say after finishing it. Until now I read it three times. The first time I "swallowed" it in just a few hours, then I returned and read it to better understand the new ideas and their implications. A week later I read it again. I'm curious to see how others react to his theory (which seems to me very plausible).

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#70
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:46 AM

It'll take a few months. This weekend I broke my promise to limit physics to work hours and I paid the price for that. Work hours only from now on.

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#73
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 10:06 AM

Has this theory been peer reviewed yet?

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#80
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 5:14 PM

The downloadable .pdf doesn't even appear to have been proofread (and corrected).

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#81
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 6:32 PM

For the right fee, Editor Crankshaft can fix that.

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#82
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 6:54 PM

Yah, easy money!

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#84
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:23 PM

That might depend on how many glitches it contains. I haven't downloaded it, so I don't know yet.

A retired radiation health physicist and I once wrote a popular-level book on modern physics. With some conversion factors, time-1 seems to be a (or the) most fundamental unit; so this guy's spacetime scheme might be interesting.

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#86
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

03/01/2016 12:51 AM

I read a little more into it - and I'm being sarcastic

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#65
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:27 AM

You wrote, "but also what gravity is "in fact"..."

I'd be hesitant to say we know what gravity is in fact, when we don't. It is all just theories at this point.

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#71
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 7:47 AM

Please, read first the book and then come with your comments on it (I'm curious to see others' evaluations and criticism). His idea about gravity (and not only) is very revolutionary. If his basic theory is correct (and not necessarily entirely), his explanation on what is gravity is complete. If not, well... it is anyhow a very plausible one.

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#78
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Re: How Do Gravitational Waves Propagate?

02/29/2016 1:04 PM

1. I am really pressed for reading time, so I can't get to it right away.

2. Unless this is a peer-reviewed publication, or the foundation for his argument is peer reviewed, then it is nothing more than one man's hypothesis. I couldn't find anything in scholarly publications after a quick search.

3. I am an armchair cosmologist and my level of understanding and the supporting math it requires is far short of what is needed to pick it apart.

My somewhat informed opinion really doesn't carry much weight in the academic argument, so, I will wait until it is formally presented to the scientific community for detailed review and examination.

Essentially, until others with good credentials have weighed in on the merits of this hypothesis it is impossible for me to say.

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