Previous in Forum: Circuit Breakers   Next in Forum: Replacement Part for Dacor Downdraft Part
Close
Close
Close
15 comments
Participant

Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2

Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/07/2016 8:12 AM

I have a MCC cubicle with combination starter, rated and UL labeled as 65KAIC @480V. While the MCP (Motor Circuit Protection) is in the family of 35KAIC at 480V. If this is combination starter is in line with the UL requirement and labeled/rated at 65KAIC...during actual fault say 55KA, will the MCP (family of 35KAIC) will open and isolate the fault? If so, what justification that I could give.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21024
Good Answers: 792
#1

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/07/2016 8:17 AM

Ask the manufacturer. And then maybe ask UL.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 31998
Good Answers: 837
#2

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/07/2016 8:30 AM

It probably will. What is of real interest is whether or not it will survive the experience sufficiently well to enable its correct operation on subsequent occasions.

How did the telephone call with the equipment manufacturer go, then?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Resting under the Major Oak
Posts: 4347
Good Answers: 181
#3

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/07/2016 12:06 PM

What is a MCP?

__________________
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Posts: 4435
Good Answers: 135
#11
In reply to #3

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/08/2016 5:13 AM

Male chauvinist pig

__________________
Give masochists a fair crack of the whip
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21024
Good Answers: 792
#12
In reply to #3

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/08/2016 7:05 AM

The OP explained that in parentheses: motor circuit protection. (More usually rendered as "protector")

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#15
In reply to #3

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

10/14/2024 5:04 AM
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8778
Good Answers: 376
#4

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/07/2016 3:50 PM

Check the data sheets carefully for the fault ratings (including their stated durations which is very important) as the proper ratings should be in there to allow you to match the two together. Both must be greater than your prospective fault current or the equipment most likely won't be suitable.

Also check your realistic expected fault currents (worst case) and upstream protection settings, perhaps your prospective fault current is not as high as you think.

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42375
Good Answers: 1689
#5

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/07/2016 8:45 PM

"what justification that I could give"?

Tell them you have no clue what you are doing.

I see this in your future:

Unfortunately, it will likely be some poor electrician who suffers the consequences of your incompetence.

Get some competent help, and the code book, and then call your suppliers and ask them for advice.

UL will not offer any technical advice.

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4666
Good Answers: 801
#6

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/07/2016 10:24 PM

Here is how this works. Circuit breakers are designed and listed for a particular interrupting capacity in mind, let's say 65kAIC. They will be tested under that condition and if it passes by itself, they list it that way, but EVERY breaker they sell with that rating is expected to survive that level of fault current, regardless of everything else used in its circuit. So any additional contribution that other devices MIGHT be able to contribute to the process are required to be ignored, because on the surface the listing of the breaker has to stand alone. So because of this, even if the breaker passed at 65kA, they may list it at 35kA and sell it at a lower price and higher volume to end users and OEMs, who will accept the responsibility of doing the extra engineering considerations of how it is used. If they want to take on a little more risk and list it at 65kAIC, they want to get paid for that since the volume will be lower, so they sell the EXACT SAME breaker as 65kAIC for a higher price to get the label that says that. If you want a higher rating, such as 100kAIC, the design of the breaker is often significantly different and volume is significantly lower. So expect to pay a lot more for that.

Now, when the breaker manufacturer wants to sell that lower rated breaker in a series combination string of THEIR OWN other components such as starters, they will often take on the added risk in order to increase their total sale. Plus THEY are in control of the exact design criteria in that series string. So even though the breaker SAYS it is the 35kAIC version , THEY know it will pass in the 65kA string test. In fact in some cases they even pass at 100kA (Rockwell) using the same breaker. An important part of this is that the series MUST be testested by UL together, no simple filing of paperwork.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern Kansas USA
Posts: 1494
Good Answers: 126
#7

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/07/2016 11:54 PM

Friend,

The components chosen will have their own labeled interrupting capacity. When the components are assembled into an MCC bucket then the lowest rated component sets the rating of the assembly unless the assembly of components has been tested and labeled for a higher capacity. The wording of your question leaves some ambiguity, but if this is a factory-assembled combination starter then the label on the bucket would apply even though the MCP appears to have a lower rating.

--JMM

Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/08/2016 3:35 AM

Hi JMM. Thanks for your input. So I could assume now that the combination starter, though MCP is 35KAIC, theoretically, it can clear the Fault of say...55KAIC (for as long that it was UL Tested).

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 31998
Good Answers: 837
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/08/2016 4:30 AM

"Assume: it makes an ass out of u and me." - Anon.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 31998
Good Answers: 837
#10

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/08/2016 4:31 AM

If in doubt, consult a local Electrical Engineer.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - Old Hand

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 14331
Good Answers: 162
#13

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/08/2016 1:38 PM

They won't be calling you "Sparky" for nothing. When you concern for electric safety ceases, you become an endangered species.

The MCP is 35KAIC which means it is suitable for use with the higher rated 65KAIC MCC cubicle motor starter. Does that make sense? But is the MCC rated for the upper fault current values available in the feeder circuit? You need to consult with your 70E code book, and really think about this.

NEVER EVER put say a 70KAIC MCP in a 65KAIC rated enclosure. It will blow the doors off it during a fault interruption, and spray everyone walking by with hot copper liquid, and also the intensely 5000 C hot copper vapor cloud.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4666
Good Answers: 801
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Interrupting Capacity of Combination Starter

06/08/2016 4:33 PM

The MCP is 35KAIC which means it is suitable for use with the higher rated 65KAIC MCC cubicle motor starter. Does that make sense? But is the MCC rated for the upper fault current values available in the feeder circuit? You need to consult with your 70E code book, and really think about this.

NEVER EVER put say a 70KAIC MCP in a 65KAIC rated enclosure. It will blow the doors off it during a fault interruption, and spray everyone walking by with hot copper liquid, and also the intensely 5000 C hot copper vapor cloud.

Huh? Are you being facetious? (fecetious)

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 15 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); Codemaster (1); fvec102 (1); jack of all trades (1); James Stewart (1); jmueller (1); JRaef (2); lyn (1); PWSlack (3); TonyS (1); Tornado (2)

Previous in Forum: Circuit Breakers   Next in Forum: Replacement Part for Dacor Downdraft Part

Advertisement