Bridge collapse

Ah.. You see, as an American you can get away with saying that!

If I say it I'd be met with vitriol and guys telling me that America is a great country!!

We are a great country

That's the shame of it .

If you look back through history, you will see the same thing happen over and over again! The Roman empire grew and then collapsed, the British empire grew and then collapsed, other empires grew and collapsed, now it's the American empire, It too will grow and collapse! The nature of the beast, getting too big for your boots, getting too greedy, spreading your resources too thin until, bosh!! your empire collapses! It is only a matter of time my friend! Who will be the next empire?

Where have I been. The American empire I thought the people ruled here.

And as far as the empire collapsing we call that election day we don't have to go to war with our state to get rid of corrupt and greedy leaders.

Our forefather's thought well before settling on the principle's that founded this nation.Even the right of the individual to bare arms.

The freedoms our forefathers created in this the new world has spread. Your nation now enjoys some of them.

You should be worried that you never see that colapse. Just a little hiccup in our economy is felt around the world.

I hope it doesn't collapse for all our sakes! You could say what did the romans ever do for us but we all know the reply to that! Every growing nation brings with it new technologies and tries to imprint their ideas on the world, some good, some bad, but you can only push so far! sooner or later the rest of the world gets annoyed and the nation doing the pushing gets pushed under! It has been seen over and over again all through history! Nobody can dominate the world! We tried it once and now look at The Great British Empire, Not so great now (I say with head in hands) I'm still proud to be British but our days of political power are over, we are just another little country in the middle of this world mess!

God, don't I sound depressing? Barr humbug but at the moment I can't see a bright light at the end of the tunnel!

They were empires lead and ruled by the state.

I believe no one here wants to rule the world. What I believe is that every one here wants the joys and happiest of living in peace. With the freedoms that their ancestors fought and died for.

There is a infection in the world of Islam a small sec that desires to become an empire. That empire threatens our freedoms. Yours mine and any one in a free society. They have all ready taken some of those freedoms in what now is imposed on us by or governments to insure the safety of the people from attack. Their terrorist attacks have killed thousands around the world. As I see it to set back and do nothing will only present a problem for future generations.

The rest of the Islamic Nation has taken the view to do nothing about this infection with in. Too set back and let it play out. With I believe they hope that they will become this all powerful empire. A religious empire with their god opposed on the people and no other. Freedoms limited by what the church leaders say with extreme consequences if not obeyed. I don't think the women of free country's will respond well to a life of servitude to men. Which they should not have to. The life imposed on women in some Islamic society is barbaric. Does their god tell them to do it or the men that make up the church leadership. I do not see how the sons of these women live with their selfs. To except blindly that its their gods will.

I know I could not. So to let this infection fester would lead to amputation of Islam from our society and the world. A nation founded on freedom. One of which is freedom of religion we find it against our conscience to do. If there is no Islamic Leaders to come forth to strongly denounce the infection with in. We must treat it as we must maybe World War III. Hard words but what freedoms are you willing to give up?

I think I have bitten off more than I can chew! It just seems to me that it is all going down hill rather fast. Some countries are not helping, prime example is the English government giving Salmon Rushdie an award! well done, lets stir the sh*t up a bit more! The Americans putting defences up between us and Russia! It's just creating more tension globally and all I see is aggression! Where do we go from here?

Maybe a good idea to get back to the collapse of the bridge which was a great tragedy for all! My posts on this thread are just how I feel and are not meant to lay blame on anybody! The politicians do that better than me!

Salmon Rushdie an author whether he wrote fact or fiction is not the problem. The Muslim church's reaction is. They made the man with their reaction. If the Muslim church leaders would not have acted. The way they did he would have been forgotten.

Their reaction just proved his point. The killings and the attempted killings of the foreign translators proved the volatile nature of the religion. It's need to control It's subjects

As far as the USA placing defences its all a chess move. If and when it is ever done all those involve will come to terms.

Too Many bridges to count sooner or later one has to go. My Hearts Out To Those That Lost There Lives And The Love Ones Left Behind.

Better to Build Bridges Then Walls.

I couldn't agree more ozzb! I'd like to carry on this conversation with you but time has ran out for me today! I will try and catch you tomorrow! But for now, goodnight

Hello,

Any one who spreads nonsence and hate, whether muslim or not has to be mentally derainged. I whole heartedly agree with your statement however--"Build bridges rather than walls". As a closing statement, our actions are very much like a Boomerang, what you spread, comes back to you.

Javed

The war is an unrelated topic, as the responsibility for bridges, much like hurricane evacuations, is the responsibility of the State and local agencies. The politicians obviously didn't want to alienate the voters by impairing traffic flows, until they had absolutely no perceiveable alternative (and they tend to be very limited in perception). The political parties involved gambled and lost. Now it is time to deflect the responsibility somewhere else. Solution find some sheeple who are easily distracted by some rhetoric, in this case foreign policy, and get them to babble about someone elses fault through some chain of conspiracy to underfund the State of Minnesota, LOL. Foreign policy rhetoric is a Red Herring, don't get distracted by it. Someone in Minnesota needs to be the focus of this responsibility. If a baby dies in a hospital, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Federal Policies, it might just be the hospital administration forced/manipulated the Doctors into providing inadequate care because they felt it was an acceptable risk, or maybe the Doctor was too busy. Political rhetoric about the Federal government deflects the focus of attention and just lets another politician, who is actually responsible, off the hook. (Or maybe that is what this discussion is meant to do.)

To say that the war is unrelated seems to me an absurd statement.

A decision has been made (right or wrong) to spend what is to most of us incalculable and unreasonable amounts of taxpayer dollars to kill people, demolish foreign infrastructure, rebuild same and to do it with an additional cost of human resources (lives).

I, for one, see a very direct correlation 'Guest'. A direct correlation that would fall into the category of engineering, not only from an ethical perspective (such as whether or not to build and use a super weapon) but from a managerial and resource allocation perspective as well.

CR3

C Rummel3

I'm glad to see someone gets it

and is unafraid to say it

Traditional

How can you say war is unrelated?

The bottom line our tax dollars go into government (Federal, State, & Loacal Agencies), then the government spends it , and we COMPLAIN about it . Right now a large portion of it is being utilized to support the war on terrorism. Let's not forget there is Federal funding for many of the roads and bridges. Basically, someone (some people) in the political realm make decisions with our tax dollars (decisions which most of us question to no avail ).

Now that I am thinking about this a little, Do you really think that if the war was not going on, our political leaders would say " Hey, we have all this extra money, why don't we go and fix everything within our infrastructure. " Republican/Democrate/Independent/... I don't think so. The funds would be used for something else, probably to support the ones patting the backs of our politicians , or close to election time, they throw us a few scraps and try to be cool about it .

Even the right of the individual to bare arms ?? I suppose in other less fortunate countries everybody has to wear long-sleeved shirts

A question one would wish not be asked in Sierra Leone in the '90s.

Short sleeves or long sleeves?

Yeah, I remember reading about it at the time. Gruesome.

I don't think the war's etc can be given as the only excuse. The American economy cannot be that pathetic.

Any structure with a possible safety risk (bridges, dams etc) should have an operating manual and should be inspected and evaluated at least once a year. The engineering profession has the duty to inform the government and public of any possible expected hazards.

If politicians however ignored warnings he should loose his job.

There is a tendency of scientist to tell the Powers what they want to hear (global warming etc) and refrain from even mentioning real issues.

Hi Hendrick,

See my post here.

-John

Hmm, not sure i would lump scientist is with -ologist. Even many -ologists don't consider other -ologies a science, e.g. cosmetology, sociology, psychology, ecology, archeology. There is only physics and chemistry, all else is a study, usually with some underlying agenda. the language of Science is math, and -ologies do not speak it very well (actually worse then economics).

Traditional,

You make the implication that if the US were not 'at war' and or not war (imperialist, I glean) minded, that all of the problems within the US would be addressed. Your feelings are well intentioned, but smack of a common knee jerk reaction to any current calamity in making excuses or placing blame where it is not warranted.

The fact that the bridge suffered a catastrophic failure is a result of the poor use and allocation of resources, not to mention drastically deficient engineering inspection and analysis and or criminal neglect. There are people dead and lives ruined. Bringing this disaster into the light of international policy and actions of the US overseas serves only to provide a broader platform for those opposed to those actions and lends an unhealthy aura of masochistic self righteousnesses to their selves and cause(s).

I'm not sure of your intent by mentioning the 'big dig' in Boston, but if the US went about strengthening the infrastructure with that project as a model, it would cost many more billions per week and likely, many more lives. For those of you who are not familiar with the project, do a search and you will find that the abuses, cost over runs, etc., were well beyond the realm of any project to date in the US; there continues a very widespread investigation into the real and potential failings of the project, in all aspects.

I am no happier than you with much that the US represents and does or does not do both in the US and overseas. It is easy for other nationals to criticize, but there is always the omnipresent "pot calling the kettle black"; not to mention the total lack of recognition for the vast amount of good the US does overseas, which may not be perfect in every respect, but who else does it?

I agree that the US should reorganize its priorities and concentrate on what is the best interest of the US, i.e., what's at home. However, politics, being what it is here, make that an unsurmountable goal; and that's right down to the micro-local level. I think that's where a change to local and global awareness has to start.

Think about your own local infrastructure and where the next failure may be, rather than pointing the finger (which you may want to give to me) at a convenient target of blame after the fact.

I have seen in my lifetime a constant position of the United States as meddling in others affairs. Some obviously warranted some less than. Vietnam was supposed to allegedly stem the flow of communism and may in fact had some merit although it didn't turn out well.Good intentions bad outcome.

I've always believed it better to pick your fights well and when you do give it all you've got .

Think about all the regimes we have backed Marcos, Shaw of Iran ,Noriega,and Saddam Hussein to name a few and when will we learn .

Has anyone asked themselves why these people hate us so much ?

I learned a long time ago you get a lot further with sugar than you do with lemons maybe we need to look at a new approach?

Meanwhile some people are still hungry and homeless in our country deciding whether to buy food or have health care and numerous examples of basic needs not being met.

Besides global warming ,fuel costs,medical costs crime and prisons,drugs ,immigration,etc. ,we have enough problems before we go half way around the world to single handedly fight the boogy man lets be more creative .

Sure this bridge event is not the only example of neglect ,not that all the problems would be addressed ,but ill planned foreign wars are surely a waste of resources

I thought the peace dividend would be well spent and infuse our country to such greatness that we could share with the world .

This isn't a knee jerk reaction just a clear observation money could be better spent and that the big dig was a hog fest is not a source of pride for Massachusetts but I would easier accept that than killing people to stimulated the economy .

I have seen enough government waste to accept that the big dig was a bargain next to war .With planned spending,at least with appropriate over site ,that waste can be curtailed but that in no way says we should avoid repairing our infrastructure because of it

Because we just can't afford to do both in my opinion .

You forgot Korea...

How long did that go on to end up with the border back where it started?

To quote a UK TV political Character.

'You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment'

I don't intend to argue with your many points, as in some respects they are valid; though I think there is much more to be considered in most of them rather than making blanket statements.

I am not an apologist for the US policies and doctrines that have created or supported corrupt regimes and fruitless efforts. However, from the mid 1945's through 1980's, the US with her allies (in the interest all of the free world) had one primary concern, the USSR and Red China. Necessity makes for strange bedfellows. With virtually a total void of cultural understanding, many alliances were established to preempt a potential communist infiltration and ultimately domination of scores of primarily 3rd and 2nd world countries. I'm not excusing the results, but you must understand that 'business as usual', be it political et al, in these many countries was and is very different than in the US.

I don't know if you've traveled much. I haven't been everywhere, but I've been to many more countries and parts of the world than most. I can assure you that US citizens are generally well accepted and liked. The two exceptions that come to mind are, Parisians (well, they're Parisians) and people in the Congo (don't think they like any foreigners). The US government on the other hand (albeit far from perfect) is the ever present symbol to many peoples and governments alike, that is forever used to lay blame upon (sometimes rightfully so) and distract attention from others faults, conditions, situations and responsibilities.

I think the hate you speak of is what we see every evening on the TV; bands of fanatic partisans orchestrated by self serving megalomaniacal, racist zealots. These self anointed so called leaders have always been out there and probably always will be in one form or another. The irony is, however, that the likes a of Saddam Hussein and a host of others kept them and still keep them in check. As a thought, which is worse?

I respect and understand what you have to say about the many priorities in the US that need to be directly addressed. I still take issue with your taking the disagreement, anger, frustration, etc. you have on certain issues and painting them with a broad brush over a disastrous bridge failure. Coulda, woulda, shoulda; sorry, it's too late for that.

We never have money to fix things

We always have money for war

Hmm, all these supposed dictators we ousted, were in power before we invested in them, Saddam was in power when Iraq was a soviet Ally. We just began supporting him when we saw Iran as posing a greater threat (which given their actual realized position on achieving nuclear weapons, we were apparently more correct back then). Who do you think Iran is planning on using those nuclear bombs against? (Keep in mind it is way tougher for them to get a bomb to US than say Spain, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Chechnya, Israel, etc..). Maybe we should have pushed to keep the Iranians distracted by their war effort longer. We backed one bad guy to fight another, we do know that Iran directly supports terrorism from the Shiite perspective. There are many regimes we support. The hugest support goes to Egypt and Israel, both of which are not exactly fully democratic/republics and neither of which fully practices separation of religion from politics (as a matter of fact the worse of those two gets the highest payment). In both cases americans have been killed under these regimes. Though only the Israelis have ever attacked an american war ship and killed naval personnel intentionally during a time of peace (this may be why they receive the most assistance). Though we continuously pay them not to fight each other, because we percieve them as better than the alternative. Note, we provided assistance to post WW I Germany while they were severely impoverished (while europe taxed Germany for the war), and during this period we kept a democratic regime in power. However, as the depression hit in the US, we stopped supporting Germany and the Nazis made a strong move into power. On the whole US foreign policy tends to piss people off because they think that doing nothing is better. While I tend to agree that doing nothing is better for the US, it does tend to lead the rest of the world into major wars. The US has always rode through major conflicts much better than the rest of the world, let them all fight it out like they always do. I am for pulling out of the UN, it has never been of any benefit to the US to be in the UN. The US is only involved because it would fail like the league of states without our involvement and support (a lot of support $). Maybe helping a man by giving him fish or even teaching him to fish will be resented, unless he can be as proficient as you immediately upon learning the skill. We could throw them a fishing pole and let them figure it out themselves, but then they resent us for not helping. A good example is Darfur, this is of no consequence to the US, but we have people complaining that we should be involved. Darfur is a UN issue, and as usual Europe wants no part fighting genocide, after all they have a long history as practioners (from the Romans at least all the way through Stalin, for major genocides). Ruanda was a UN issue, same. Liberia, UN issue that they did take action after the US already sent a Naval Task force. Cambodia, UN issue, do nothing approach again. Bangledesh UN issue, do nothing seems to be the preferred approach. If you always sit and watch the game, and have no experience playing the game, you should not comment on the players in the game.

I'm all for war when it's a last resort

If we planned on occupying Iraq we should start pumping oil and quit pretending.

I don't think we needed to "play the game" it's not a game

trust me

Ramble, ramble, ramble.........Jeeze man, snap out of it.

I suggest that you and Traditional take each others hands and go for a pleasant frolic in some nearby meadow.

Perhaps the two of you can make some reciprocal sense together.

And remember, you are a guest.

Right on brother...

I see a post like that wordy and all run together, and rightaway I think blah, blah, blah I am all for good information and value other's opinions.

Out

Thats real nice

why don't you and "all about me" it is all about you isn't it

go join the Rush Limbaugh fan club

My, my, I guess some nerves are getting touched in here . I mention a few things about how we spend $$ and agree that someone is rambling, then I get labeled. Ouch . Relax...

go join the Rush Limbaugh fan club

Been there, done that and caught the lunch time talk show a few times, although I was far from joining any fan club. He is overrated, likes to hear himself talk and he's always repeating himself, in other words all I hear now from Rush is.

"all about me" it is all about you isn't it

Please tell me you see the M.E.

Lighten up.

To mechanical engineer

Some times the truth hurts doesn't it.

I lived in Boston during the final months of the BIG DIG. What a mess.

I lived in Boston before the Big Dig. A much bigger mess!

Isn't all this talk of empire a bit silly? After all, the Romans built arched and non-arched spans that lasted centuries beyond their empire. Does this mean that only Roman engineers were immune to "decadence"? And, bridges have fallen many times in U.S history, probably with greater frequency during the nation's actual empire days. The more important question it seems would be what was overlooked in the design or usage of the bridge that led to its failure...and whether that factor or factors impacts the safety of similar bridges. And, to expect any bridge of monumental proportion to fail in 40 years is not realistic. If the bridge in Minnesota failed due to societal "decadence," then we might ask why it waited so long...?

<avoidable disaster >-- you said it all.

GWB will now visit the site and tell them "Do it again-we will foot the bill".

I am sure nobody will tell him "Not like the one which fell--but like the one by the side which did not"(The one standing is Arch Below with Spandrels)

Look at all reliable bridges of Yore--all Arches.

Look at what France does since high-strength wires came up :

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct

I saw in Shanghai an Arch Bridge with span 500m

The one that fell in Minneapolis was 100m!

In India Arch Bridges are almost Unknown.

I saw somewhere that there is an ongoing problem with detecting corrosion in the cables of suspension bridges...they were mic'-ing up the cables so that they could hear if a strand broke (presumably with a nice 'ping'). I expect there are thousands of bridges in use long after their designed life.

PS Nice Post Mareng....

Corrosion?

Beauty about exposed ,accessible wires is: You can keep watching :do something.

And coated wires will continue for millenia like the Iron Pillar "Ashoka Stambha ", Delhi.

When in doubt- you replace 1-with traffic still booming below.

Arch bridges are the most common practice in India for ages, I have seen an arch bridge in Maharashtra with the longest single arch masonry, not steel,and this bridge was built before the Public Works Department was established and nobody has been able to find out when this one was built. I believe it is in the vicinity of Mimbai maybe between 100 and 250 miles from there going North on Highway # 3

I am surprised as to why the steel in bridge construction in America is not protected for corrosion by spraying Zinc on all the sections before the bridge is assembled to be sure that the work is done to specifications, this would protect the steel for a very long time, at least 100 years if the coating is painted over with an epoxy to seal it.

It was a tragedy. What amazes me is that so few people lost their lives! I don't know how may vehicles were on the bridge when it collapsed, but the last count I heard was eight dead, and some number missing and presumed dead. The news folks pump all this up to unreal proportions, the crisis de jour, anyone still talking about the tsunami event? Hurricane Katrina, etc., etc. Structures, both old and new collapse every day. It is a failure of engineering and maintenance when it does happen. You can also toss in political, and governmental (both local and national)hubris when you think of the megalithic structures we build in places (San Francisco, Tokyo, Los Angeles) which are subject to periodic mass shifting of the earth. A good sized quake in any of these spots will make the human toll in this bridge collapse, 911, the war(s) in Iraq and Afghanistan, look pitifully small. Mankind's screw-ups can't hold a candle to Mother nature when she decides to shake things up a bit. We should build wisely, and with proven technology when it comes to public infrastructure, and the safety factor used in such structures should be on the order of a 100+ not five, or twenty. Yes there are Roman bridges and arches still standing 2000 years later, perhaps we should strive for the same and quit making the design and building of public infrastructure more of an art contest than an engineering quest for the best and longest lived. Enough mindless ramblings so early on a Sunday morning. To everyone, have a wonderful day, and a great week. Design stout out of materials you know about.

A good point

Any minor earthquake could cause massive damage on any of these shaky structures.

So was there an engineering issue that you wanted to address, or did you choose this forum merely to rant your antiestablishment views?

Engineering issues usually have units like Newtons, pascals, horsepower, etc.

They cover topics such as fatigue failure, stress corrosion cracking, inspection criteria,strength of materials, design parameters and the like.

Roman Empire is covered on the history channel. Liberal politics is covered every where else.

Anti establishment rants can be recognized by being loaded with semantically negative adjectives like fat, bloated, futile and decay, whilefailing to mention any substantive engineering issue.

This political screed should have been reported, but so many (Why respond to a nonengineering post, my friends?) validated it that its removal is unlikely.

Spare us the rhetoric, ask an engineering question.

milo

I believe this is an open forum where engineer can discuss many things including the 'P' word and the 'R' word! The only prerequisite is that we respect the view of all concerned! We should raise above the name calling and petty digs otherwise we will end up just like politicians! I now remember why I never normally get involved in the P and R threads! Come on guys, we are supposed to be intelligent, lets give intelligent replies!

Its Sunday morning and to wake up and read this piss*s me off! I'm going for a pint and when I come back, I want to here no more mud slinging, no more rubbish about whose fault it is! It's my round and I will accept the responsibility and pay my way!

WHOSE FOR A BEER?

If you live in S.Spain come to Harley Dees and have a drink on me!

Well said, well said. Let us all be civil, it's too, too easy to be the other way. Take the longer view, and that view embraces everyone on this planet, and in the end the fate of humanity as a whole. Are we working for the greater good? If not we're stumbling blocks in the path to a just an equitable existence for everyone. Of course this leaves the door open for much rational discussion as to what constitutes the greater good, but I think the 'bridge collapse' issue has been again used as a convenient jumping off point for political diatribes. And in that vein, I was talking to a compatriot the other day, and the topic of the 60's generation came up - it seems the same level of mistrust of government and general rebelliousness is still alive and well in the hearts of the baby boomers but the difference is now we're old and generally have more money than we did back then. Perhaps, it was suggested, we could finance our own revolution, outsource an army (since ours is busy every where else right now)to take back the government from the special interest groups, kick the parasites, demagogues, and criminals out of Washington, DC, and return our government to what it was originally meant to be. Something to ponder. Of course in this day and age it could get you rendered to a foreign country and tortured so if there are any HS agents out there watching this forum, it was all in jest and simply amounted to the ramblings of the pre-Alzhimers coallition over cups of weak coffee. If I were in S. Spain I'd be right there with you at Harley Dees - if you're ever in the US, the S. US give me a yell and we can get together.

I shall take you up on that! At the moment, I am waiting for my missis to get dressed so we can go to the bar but that I'm afraid is another topic entirely! So, I will drink a cold beer for you my friend and dream of happier times to come! Good health and bottoms up! Whose for another?

I quit drinking some time ago. Well after I had had my fill. However sitting about a pub, smoking good tobacco and enjoying a cup of strong rich coffe with a bit of whole cream, stirred with a splinter of carribean cane, and contemplating these matters amongst men whom might smile and laugh, whilst the reality bears its wound in the furrow of our collective brow? I say yes man. I say a resounding yes.

And as the miles seperate us let this technology bring us near. With no fear of 'P' or 'R'. Here we allow ourselves that freedom. Here we offer one another that respect.

And as much as I am enticed this fine Sunday morning, I will not be there. I am here. Sitting with family. In my comfortable home with my beautifal children, my lover, and my ancestors. Yet, I can see the light through the old wood framed windows of Harley Dee's. in a corner of southern Spain. Drinking my coffee. Respecting men I don't always agree with.Chewing on the ideas of others and my own. Chewing on abit of carribean cane.

I am honored to be among such people as yourself. Let the fair exchange of ideas, laughter, and camaraderie reign sovereign here within this virtual coffee house or pub, depending on your proclivities of course, and let us never forget that we sail the deep seas of the cosmos on a small and frail ship, with no destination in sight, and no home port to return to. It's up to us and only us where we make landfall! Just pray the natives are friendlier to us than we are to our fellow voyagers.

Hang on... this virtual coffee house...I ordered a beer a couple of hours ago!...Nothing!

Pls E-mail my beer immediately...

( Mrs Cat says her coffee was fine. )

Milo seems contemptuous of a congenial chat in our virtual coffee house or pub or whatever.....

I think we all could use a beer; especially those disgruntled.

(CR3, I'll have an extra one for you.)

There ya go Del. Thought you might like a stout. Enjoy!!!!!!!

Hey, save 1, 2, 3... for me! Too bad I just started my day. I know where I'm going after work today.

From one interloper,

Couldn't agree more. Not to mention: that engineering still does encompass aesthetics; it still includes the two f words, or should. Too often I have seen lines of discussion cut off just when there was a valid engineering concept or insight about to the taught or (perhaps) learned...all because moderators (presumably reporters before that) did not perceive what was coming--or fully fathom what had gone before. Moderators are right minded to exercise restraint with the censor button. Also, there have in these threads been numerous instances of take-off points, some intended some accidental, from which antagonist could have led in an "engineering abstraction" direction. I would say to him/her, okay to complain but, please, begin. So we can follow.

Gee Milo, There are 12 people at this time having an interchange about whatever it may be. That's 12 people to your one against that want to have this interchange. Why don't you juxt click out of this link by lifting one finger instead of wasting your breath and time berating a much larger majority that are relating to their various issues. I'm sure there are other links that lead to strictly engineering issues.

Yes, you are right of course. How silly of me to expect engineering content at CR-4.

I'll suggest to the powers that be right now that we rename it to CR-Political Views- virtual beer garden/ coffee shop.

Jeez.

I guess recognizing the difference between insight and incite is a lost art. I'll take your advice, in deference to the 12 people whose time i'm so clearly wasting.

milo"I'll be around for your technical questions"

For all your passion Milo, you have yet to raise one question regarding engineering as it relates to the bridge collapse in all your posts. All you've done is rail against those people who feel what I would call a bit of righteous indignation about the needless deaths of innocent people. Some of their views are based on news stories that highlight the failing infrastructure in this country and they're simply pointing out that monies being spent on dubious military actions, undertaken in a spirit of nearsighted revenge against an enemy who can never really be identified, could better be used here to improve life for millions of people instead of a fortunate few. If you're so bloody interested in raising engineering questions, then raise one or two and get off your righteous soap box. We're all ears.

to sail4evr

Well said brother

Traditional

Hi Milo,

Let's push this back into the realm of engineering. A witness said right before the collapse they heard the sound of a jackhammer. It has often been bandied about that when large numbers of troops were 'marched' across bridges they were told never to march in unison, for fear the harmonics of their marching could in fact cause the collapse of the structure. Just a short time ago, the Myth Busters aired a program based on a claim by Tesla, that he's created an 'earthquake' machine that when it was attached to a structural member of a building, cause it to shake so much they had to evacuate it. The Myth Busters did manage to set up a harmonic vibration of a lower magnitude on a bridge, which gave them pause in dismissing Tesla's claim outright. Now, given the fact that traffic was stalled on the bridge perhaps loading it past projected design loads (it is 40 years old), and it was structurally deficient, is there even the remotest of possibilities that the vibrations from that jackhammer could have weakened/stressed it just that tiny bit more (it doesn't take a lot) to cause it to collapse.

It is unfortunate that this post duplicates a similar post under Civil Engineering:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/10774/Could-bridge-collapse-be-prevented?frmtrk=CR4digest

I repeat my post from that thread:

There are many reasons why bridges collapse. They mostly fall into two major categories: (1) compromised maintenance, (2) unanticipated "features" of a new design concept.

The history channel has prepared an excellent non-technical review of the recent history of bridge collapses http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=55377&mini_id=1335

Regarding the second: It is hard to argue against new designs, but since much of the concept polish in engineering is based on lessons learned (from disasters), we should at the very least recognize that there is significant inherent risk coupled with every departure from the tried and true. New concepts are thoroughly investigated by a modeling, but the models only evaluate the problems which we can think of, and often they cheat by adding complexity (tweakable knobs) so that modelers can "tune" their models to compensate for things that they cannot resolve intellectually. This subject is treated at length in an excellent book: The Future of Everything: The Science of Prediction by David Orrell

As to the first: A call to action was issued following the collapse of the Silver Bridge over the Ohio River in 1967 citing to inattention that we pay to our infrastructure. This call has been repeated after each ensuing collapse and is soon forgotten. Politicians play to the whims of the voters, which they skillfully manipulate. Politicians readily decide to spend a trillion dollars on a ill advised war, but can never find funding for basic human needs (education, health care, infrastructure, etc.). It's not their fault: we (re)elect them and put up with their fanciful tirades.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill

You make a good point, but your figure of $ 2 billion a week needs some adjustment. How much gasoline, diesel and jet fuel does the services consume in a week? Where does that money go? Mostly to OPEC nations for "oil" at $60 to $75 a bbl. How much of these fuels can be made from a bbl of crude? How much aid, in many forms, do OPEC nations contribute to "the enemy" in Iraq and Afghanistan? How much of that is paid for with "our" oil money to OPEC nations? How many terrorists does Saudi, Iran, Syria, et al train, equip and support? Are we accomplishing any good in Iraq? Is Iraq any better off now that it was 20 years ago under a dictator? How many lives of US service personal is that accomplishment worth? What price does one put on a young, vibrant human life? I submit that we need to increase the numbers of the actual cost of the "war" in Iraq, plus the loss of that money as it contributes to the downside of poor educational reforms here in the US, poor health and health insurance for the needy, attention to the infrastructure of roads, bridges and railways, and so on. One can make quite a list! No politics involved here, just facts. When will taxes begin to skyrocket to pay for all the expenditures in Iraq, etc?

I agree these are facts and science and engineering are a collection of facts .

In this case it is impossible to fairly discuss the matter without looking at all the facts

and if they include politics or the "P" word as mentioned in previous posts then it is only

fair to to examine those facts no matter how distasteful (to some) to reach a scientific

conclusion .

The answer is:

Building Nations is more complex than building bridges.

Saving Nations from decay/decadence is more complex that saving bridges from collapse.

In both cases the designers have a lot, if not all, to answer for.

It would be advisable to find not only answers but solutions. The "rules" of "P" and "R" are in to many un-checkable, imponderable variations of interpretations of what ever they were meant to be when they were created/established. Executed by the corrupt, greedy and misguided.

You don't have to judge a nation by its people you can judge it by their bridges and their builders.

Lets get that bloody maintenance team out and pay them well.

I expect taxes will begin to go up when they can no longer borrow money to pay the interest on the money that had been used to fund the war.

Ike warned us of the military-industrial complex, there is money in war. After the Soviet collapse, we had to get something going somewhere. A never ending war, its all about the buck. There are only about 100 families that control the economic policy of this country, most of whom get a slice of this war pie.

I agree. It would be interesting to begin to compile that list along with their links to the war machine. Then expand that list globally. Disclose who are the war mongers for profit?

I wish I could wish it into existence.

I hope this disaster will make politicians (and engineers) realize that safety issues are important.

Here in Pretoria a fast rail link are to be build over a dolomite area (80m deep sinkholes). In the 45 years that I know the area the contours have changed dramatically. The brave solution is that the cavities will be concrete filled.

Apart from the damage to the aquifer, new cavities will form over time.

In 20-40 years time a sinkhole may develop causing a huge disaster.

Shades of "Henny- Penny"...........

I hate to be the bearer of bad news

BUT I AM

you have all missed the point

Follow the money

as an engineer you will do your math and be put in the grave for it

Who was the last engineer ruler???

herbert hoover?

Jimmy Carter

Please don't blame the Bush Admin. , The war etc. The president does not inspect bridges. Thank god. It (May) and I stress may be incompetence in the inspection process. Early reports say a possible problem on an expansion joint back in 1996. But let's not point fingers too soon. This will be a long investigation. The media (24/7) is very quick to judge.

These are completely 2 separate issues. Yes our infrastructure is in need of major repair, but you can blame every level of government in these cases. These things do happen. We should be very thankful the loss of live was not much greater.

Our security is most important, This war is very unpopular yes but our enemy is very determined to destroy our way of life. If we did not go on the offensive they will be here blowing up our bridges & highways, And believe me this can happen.

Jim C

I have heard that bridge recently had an inspection score of something like 40 out of 120. What does that actually mean? What is the inspection criteria? The news stated that the bridge issues were going to be addressed in ~2010. Does that mean 40/120 isn't that bad? At what level is there supposed to be action, and to what degree? Here in Jax, we have numerous bridges, and I have heard that several scored much, much lower than 40 and yet, some of those are not even on the docket to have the issues addressed.

Enlighten me!

Apparently that score doesnt take into account major structural deficiencies as the state only did repairs to it instead of complete overhaul of the structure. It could very well have been a situation where a boater slammed into one of the support pillars by accident and caused a cascading effect on the structure of the bridge. But, I really think it was the fault of the state to not do anything other than small repairs.

Was the original bridge designed to carry 100,000 + cars a day? (Probably not) We need a Civil engineer to tell us different how do they design it for future growth, ete. For instance , The the Blue route in PA was 30 years in the making and was under capacity(traffic wise)the day it opened.

Jim C

One comment I haven't heard or seen yet.

Did the people who designed the bridge have a crystal ball to tell them that the politicians would take huge political donations (the political correct term for bribes and kickbacks) from the trucking companies and teamsters to lift the limits on what the weight limits for trucks can carry? I haven't checked on the real numbers yet but I know the limits are way up from the time when this bridge would have been designed.

The bridge problem is the same as the war problem - The PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS.

DON'T RE-ELECT ANYONE. ONE TERM IN A NATIONAL OFFICE.

Right On!

Some years ago (1950's) a classmate got a student trainee job for DOT, his task, to estimate the expected life or the, yet to be built, Interstate Highway System. The study concluded that the highways would last 100 years, without heavy truck traffic, but that they would need to be replaced in 20 years with the addition of truck traffic AT THE 1950 LOAD LIMITS!

The resolution: the study was classified.

I spent some years working on classified projects. Sadly, classification is often used to protect sensitive information from the REAL ENEMY - the voter.

For 5 million Kurds, the overthrow of Saddam Hussein was the best thing that could have happened. For the remaining Iraqis, ethnic hatred and Sunni support of Al Qaeda terrorists have thwarted the USA's best intentions. Like they say, you can lead a horse to the trough, ...

Al Qaeda is said to be as strong now as they were just before 911. However we know that Al Qaeda was rapidly growing in strength in the years just preceding 911. So it would appear that we have at least slowed its growth, even if the institutionalized teaching of hatred against the West and especially the USA as its de facto leader has not been addressed.

While there have been numerous attempts to follow up 911, the embassy attacks, the attack on the Cole, etc., so far they have been thwarted. Much of the success of stopping Al Qaeda has to do with intelligence cooperation received from Middle Eastern countries that were not willing to cooperated until after Saddam was disposed.

I don't know why Roman civilization is constantly thrown up as an example of failure. It lasted a thousand years.

Bridges collapse. Fortunately thanks to improved engineering and maintenance procedures, the rate at which they collapse is the lowest in history. Analyses of this failure will result in knowledge that can be used to further improve the safety of bridges.

When we talk about the Roman empire, we were saying that great empires do collapse and not that they were a failure! The same as in tennis, for example John M^cEnrow was a great tennis player but somebody came along and beat him! This does not make him a failure!

I have nothing more to add!

yes it does. he's a goober too.

OK How about Rod Laver or Pete Sampras? Both great tennis stars but eventually both got beat!

I was thinking Agassi, but yours are better.

Whatever the intentions, IMO 'the coalition' entered Iraq without a workable strategy for the long-term governance of the country. A recipe for making things worse. Compunding that has been an insistance on doing it with insufficient manpower. This isn't a matter of hind-sight, it's been clear for a long time that the movement of weapons and explosives by those with malicious intent is just unchecked.

try that approach with management on an engineering project.

Yuk! I come to CR4 to get away from this kind of rhetoric. I could go to DailyKos or RightWingNutHouse if I wanted to read partisan drivel.

Sorry, it's not clear quite what you see as rhetoric. You could just avoid the 'general discussion' section.

Your tone leads me to suspect you don't mind sticking your head in the sand while others go to war in your name.

Wrenched

I agree a general discussion should be just that.

I'm not sure every engineering issue can be explained with Newtons or giga watts.

There seems to be a pervasive attitude that no-one should speak out about anything as though engineers are above all that and anyone that disagrees is a fruit cake.

It reminds me allot of Vietnam while the common man was forced to serve the others went to engineering school to avoid the draft and now they hide behind a computer screen and talk smack.

Hello Wrenched. What I mean by rhetoric (and drivel) is:

1. the absurd suggestion that fighting a war caused the bridge to fall
2. naïve worldview that people will like us if we are nice
3. personal attacks against people who post a disagreeing viewpoint

Have a good day.

Bill

PS to Traditional: Who is hiding?

Bill,

There's only so much money to go round, even in the USA, so from this distance it doesn't seem absurd to postulate that a bit more spent on maintenance could have saved a tragedy.

Being nice cannot force people to like us, I agree; on the other hand no amount of 'collateral damage' will either.

Trouble is "a bit more" would be many Billions more just to reasonably assure the safety of the bridges we have and yet another would still collapse. And that's just the bridges.

Either you design and build for an unknown lifespan, or for a definite one and you cannot change your mind mid-life.

If the former, it has to be accompanied by tests and inspections which get acted upon.

If the latter, it's life has to be predictable, otherwise you know that there's going to be a failure, and failures of this nature lead to death. So I don't see it as a good basis for designing bridges, or perhaps one-off structures at all.

To bmorrow492

Not hiding just letting others have their say

1. I think wrenched said it well

2.Smashing peoples teeth down their throats is not conducive to friendship

3. If you read posts in sequence, which I agree is difficult, I never initiate attacks on people with opposing views I just give it back. Look carefully if you care to .

Well, now that solid analysis shows the Minneapolis bridge collapse was 'facilitated' by a section that was too thin for the design load, perhaps re-examination of all the bridge designs is appropriate, ESPECIALLY when contemplating ANYTHING that would increase the stress.