Previous in Forum: Affinity Laws   Next in Forum: Testing of Instantaneous Differential Relay Type CAG
Close
Close
Close
19 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Anonymous Poster #1

Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 2:43 PM

Hello,

We have a motor driving a vertical pump. The problem is there is no check valve at the discharge, so whenever the pump is stopped, due to the back flow the shaft rotates for about 40 seconds. This rotation is presumably greater than the speed of the motor as it generates voltage roughly 1.6 times the rated voltage of motor. The excitation to the motor is provided the power factor capacitor.
Though the Vacuum Breaker is of sufficient capacity to withstand this voltage, can the capacitor withstand this voltage in the long run.
Motor Details:
Rating: 650kW @ 6 kV
PF Capacitor rating: 750 kVar, rated voltage:3.6kV, star connected
Motor PF with capacitor: 0.99, Motor PF without capacitor:0.6
Motor generated voltage after the pump is stopped: 9.6kV

Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#1

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 2:59 PM

It will not harm the capacitors. It's not a good idea, but that's not what you asked about. If it were me, I would have an isolation contactor on the caps.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: by the beach in Florida
Posts: 33392
Good Answers: 1817
#2

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 3:06 PM
__________________
All living things seek to control their own destiny....this is the purpose of life
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 3:35 PM

Or that... Yeah.

Side story: if you use a back spin ratchet, be sure to do your rotation check with the ratchet DISCONNECTED then reconnect it when you have it right. Then remember to do that every time you remove or change the motor. It's not fun to energize the motor into that ratchet.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Reply
4
Guru
United States - Member - Hobbies - Fishing - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Saint Helens, Oregon
Posts: 2216
Good Answers: 70
#4

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 6:47 PM

How about just installing a check valve to stop the back flow? It probably cheaper than replacing the motor assembly? To me, a check valve should have been installed during the installation of the pump assembly

__________________
Confucius once said, “ Ability will never catch up with the demand for it".
Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wherever my motorcycle has taken me!
Posts: 384
Good Answers: 24
#15
In reply to #4

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/25/2016 9:10 AM

Since there is enough back flow to generate power for 40 seconds putting in a check valve might put too much of a start up load on the motor. Conversely, the check valve could prevent the system from starting up "dry" resulting in longer life for the pump. More information of the system specs required.

__________________
Common sense is an oxymoron and the world is full of morons. (I am not one of them)!!!
Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#5

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 6:47 PM

How about installing a check valve at the discharge?

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA, Thulcandra - The Silent Planet (C.S. Lewis)
Posts: 4216
Good Answers: 194
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 10:48 PM

Best call AFAIC, and GA.

__________________
"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." - Ayn Rand
Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: CHENNAI, TAMIL NADU, INDIA.
Posts: 1851
Good Answers: 65
#19
In reply to #5

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

10/22/2017 3:09 AM

Dear Mr. Tornado,

I want to supplement to your views.

Installing a check valve should be considered with a Pressure relief valve, since sudden tripping may cause severe water hammer, more the head, more will be the intensity of water hammer.

DHAYANANDHAN.S

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#6

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 9:47 PM

As I have been told by pump guys, a check valve on a vertical pump won't work on the discharge side, it has to be at the bottom, which is often a maintenance headache.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Hobbies - Fishing - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Saint Helens, Oregon
Posts: 2216
Good Answers: 70
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 9:55 PM

That's known as a foot valve, which should have installed at the get go. That would have been cheaper and easier. Still installing the proper foot valve seems the best solution.

__________________
Confucius once said, “ Ability will never catch up with the demand for it".
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 28
#11
In reply to #7

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 11:24 PM

Perhaps there IS a foot valve and it has failed or become blocked open, leading to this problem ??

__________________
Smart as a post and twice as fast.
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Hobbies - Fishing - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Saint Helens, Oregon
Posts: 2216
Good Answers: 70
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/25/2016 2:59 AM

Unfortunately like many other post on CR4, the OP doesn't give much information as to the history of the problem. Has this been a problem with the pump since it was commissioned or is this a new problem?

__________________
Confucius once said, “ Ability will never catch up with the demand for it".
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA, Thulcandra - The Silent Planet (C.S. Lewis)
Posts: 4216
Good Answers: 194
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 11:06 PM

I don't see why a properly spec'd out check valve wouldn't work in this case. Very low cracking pressures should be no problem; if the check valve is close to the system discharge, it will have a low cracking pressure and close more securely as the head increases.

__________________
"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." - Ayn Rand
Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3230
Good Answers: 444
#10

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 11:21 PM

Welcome to the "law of unintended consequences". I suspect that in your desire to achieve near unity pf you have chosen a capacitor value that is nearly resonant with the inductance of the motor, hence the self-excitation that turns your motor into an induction generator.

Trying to disconnect those caps with a breaker can lead to some nasty transient voltages across the contacts which could in turn puncture the motor's insulation as well as the caps. You might want to consider putting a breaker controlled discharge resistor across the bank to damp out the transients.

__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#12

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/24/2016 11:26 PM

Check valves, be they foot or otherwise, represent a loss of flow, ergo an increase in required power for a given flow which then means increased operating costs. On a 650kW pump, a foot valve could represent tens of thousands of kWH per year in added energy costs. Typically a Vertical Turbine Pump is used because if they can keep at least the first bowl immersed in the water it will prime itself, meaning you DON'T need that foot / check valve to avoid loss of prime and you avoid that increase in operating and maintenance costs.

The ONLY down side is that the water left in the column will fall back into the hole (even if there IS a check valve on the discharge) and unless there is a back-spin ratchet, it will spin the motor backward. For a great many people, this is inconsequential, but as was mentioned, PFC caps will keep the motor excited and make it a generator. Assuming it's an Across-the-Line (DOL) starter, it is isolated from the line and harmless, but I still don't like it for safety reasons. A maintenance worker might open something up too soon, thinking it's safe because they killed power, when in fact the motor is still back spinning and the caps are keeping it charged. So he opens a box too soon and ZAP, he's dead. Isolating the PFC caps with a contactor that opens when the main contactor opens, removes the excitation and the motor stops generating after about 1 second.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#14

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/25/2016 3:30 AM

The capacitor may be way oversized. For a 650kw motor, something like 150kvar might be more like it.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: sometimes Wales,UK.. was Libya, now Oman!
Posts: 1715
Good Answers: 117
#16

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/25/2016 3:32 PM

Install another contactor to disconnect your pF correction capacitors if you feel strongly about this!

You said
"This rotation is presumably greater than the speed of the motor as it generates voltage roughly 1.6 times the rated voltage of motor."

You use the word presumably.... have you measured either the RPM or generated voltage?

However, I would be more concerned about restarting the motor if its still back spinning!
Restarting the motor while pump and shaft are spinning the opposite way will break shafts, couplings etc, I hope you have a "back-spin relay" in the control circuit!!

__________________
The square root of nothing is what you make it!
Reply
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2181
Good Answers: 255
#17

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/28/2016 6:33 AM

You need to make this right!

Regardless of whether the pump/motor/capacitors can handle the loading short term.

With a motor/pump set of that capaity, the effect of priming the line each time the pump starts is also a significant issue for the pipeline attached. (Unless it's an open discharge outlet above the pump.)

Flow surges each time you start the pump will cause significant pipe movement at each change in direction.

If you don't have valves in place to maintain the line prime, what are you doing to the pump when you start on no-load? Cavitation??

Please review th ehydraulic implications of what is happening in your system also.

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#18

Re: Induction Motor Acting as Generator

06/28/2016 9:28 AM

<...The problem is there is no check valve at the discharge...> Then, solve this problem.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Reply
Reply to Forum Thread 19 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

brich (1); dhayanandhan (1); dj95401 (3); JRaef (4); Just an Engineer (1); LongintheTooth (1); Mikerho (2); PWSlack (1); RAMConsult (1); SolarEagle (1); Tornado (2); wmerryall (1)

Previous in Forum: Affinity Laws   Next in Forum: Testing of Instantaneous Differential Relay Type CAG

Advertisement