Build the "Wall"? Part 2

These are great comments and insights and I am glad we have kept the theme as long as we have. And I acknowledge a wall could be built almost anywhere given enough commitment and cooperation.

But the fact remains that according to the accepted math in books that is never applied in practice, the first mile curves 8", the second mile would be 32" and the third mile 72" and I don't experience that in real life.

I am sure I have observed terrain and objects 10 miles away: which should be not observable. As it should be ((8x (10x10))/12) and refraction nor looming nor any other theorys can satisfy what is observed on a daily basis.

Sometimes emperical and theoretical do not coincide.

So the answer I gather from this discussion is that I am observing images due to refraction. .....BS, no offense intended.

What we've got, is failure to communicate.

When any project of this size is undertaken, one of the first things that is done is to shoot the elevation.

This practical exercise gives insight into the grades and, well, elevations that will be encountered during the futile wall building exercise.

All the formulae in the world take second fiddle to the surveyor's transit. (OK, GPS now)

Cool, but believe it or not, we are still using Loran. Ever wonder why you go to high land to get a signal when out of range?

"When any project of this size is undertaken, one of the first things that is done is to shoot the elevation."

I thought the first thing was to shoot the accountant who is shouting that this endeavor is too expensive to undertake?

Better yet, let's shoot the person who is proposing to build it in the first place.

Now now,, remember what happened the first time this thread was posted. The "discussions" are getting almost to that point again.

You're beginning to sound radicalized. What have you got against the first wall builder, Bill Clinton?

Are you sure it was wild Bill? I thought the Chinese explorer and his crew built the first American wall over in California...what was his name?

Zheng He

This part of the story I only saw on a TV show, and it was speculation on the part of the "investigative" reporter - therefore it has to be true, right? Supposedly, a wall was built on the mountains in California quite a ways inland and supposedly to keep native Americans out. Seems like we are pretty much up to the same thing, right or wrong.

Not going there.

Now you're just being mean and nasty. Why shoot the messenger. I would think we should shoot the bastards causing them to want to run away from their home land to ours.

This is the greatest country in all the world, and always will be if we can just agree to disagree, and then meet in the middle for a cup of coffee, or a cussin' match.

When opinions are cheaper than a 5¢ cigar (who would smoke one if they could find one that cheap), there will be a plethora of unsolicited opinions, some less agreeable than others.

Back in the old days, (note: this will be offensive to many) The Texas Rangers used to sit on the cliffs of the Rio Grande and dial in their rifle sights on unsuspecting travelers who appeared on the Texas side of the strand. Those were not our best days. I think they are now. I rarely run into someone from south of the border who has no English, although more than a few who speak haltingly. I mostly see ones who make decent enough neighbors, who work hard, and take their children to school and church, and spend time with their children. These are good honest folk.

The dark side of this I seldom run into, and it might not end well if I did. They will know they ran into a fight if that happens though. The part I think we agree on is that we both hate those that take advantage of our hospitality here in the States, and those that want to ply their evil trades here, such as trafficking, smuggling, high crimes, etc. If the path to citizenship could be made clearer for those migrating here, then perhaps they would be glad to comply with our laws. I have not had any simple interactions with the Federal government lately, have you?

Yep, that's me.

But, we wander......................................again.

I know someone from a south east Asian country who although they did not speak the language, did not know the laws or the customs, easily understood that there were requirements to, " the pathway to citizenship ".

She applied and waited 12 years in her home country for her exit / entry visa to be approved.

When she came to the U.S. , she attended ESL classes, then enrolled, attended and graduated from a vocational program and became a member of the working class.

After several years she started the citizenship classes, leading up to the day where she stood shoulder to shoulder with 5000 other immigrants to be sworn in as a new citizen.

She accomplished this in less than 10 years from the moment she first stepped upon u.s. soil.

She has been here more than 30 years, and in that time has never violated a single law.

Is there a pathway to citizenship ? Yes there is, but to get there, you must follow a few requirements.

10 years from the time she stepped foot on US Soil, 22 years from the time she decided she wanted to be an American. Not to mention the cost involved.

That's why many people working through the long, slow line are against amnesty for 'undocumented workers'/'illegal aliens' getting amnesty and citizenship from the stroke of a pen in the Oval Office. THOSE people 'cut in line' and they're getting rewarded?!? Why not also extend instant citizenship to the ones who have been following the rules? It doesn't seem 'fair' to reward cheaters and punish non-cheaters.

For once, a common sense answer.

Then again, that isn't an 'answer' to the 'immigration problem,' it's just stating part of the problem. Some 'solutions' would be:

• Shorten the time frame for naturalization, so that those who take the 'legal' path aren't waiting so long they feel 'cheated' by 'line-cutters.'
• Increase policing of people 'overstaying their visas,' and get them out of the country as quickly as possible.
• Impose criminal penalties, including jail time for Managers and Company Officers, on companies that are caught using 'undocumented workers.' This will strongly incentivize the companies to police themselves.

All of these have their associated problems and Unintended consequences. The first one removes a long-cherished Conservative Ideal: the Long Waiting Line For Prosperity and the associated hatred of anyone perceived as 'cutting ahead.' It will also be accused as weakening National Security my reducing the time available to try and find 'potential terrorists' in the waiting line. The second one is just rife for abuse, as increased policing would likely expand to racial profiling and harassment. The third would be condemned at 'unfairly' attacking the 'job creators,' even though the 'created jobs' are being filled by sub-minimum-wage illegals.

The second and third would also be decried as damaging Corporate profits be denying farmers access to a traditional 'affordable' work force.

The problem can be stated simply, but the answer is going to end up very complex.

So are you saying you believe the Earth is flat??

Gee I don't know what to think when I hear that NASAs main efforts now are to get aircraft and equipment through the Van Allen radiation belts. Once they get that resolved then can send ppl into space.

It's too bad Admiral Byrd died from a heart attack in 1957. Soon after returning from Antarctica in 1956. He was in good condition and the greatest explorer in the world at the time. The youngest Admiral in the history of the USN.

Speaking of walls, he certainly discovered one and admitted he could not find or discover a way around it.

But it was nice that our President visited Antarctica recently. He must have wanted to see some penguins.

Nice picture by the way, but the actual map as near as we can tell is more like the UNITED NATIONS emblem and the wreath on the perimeter is the ice wall of Antarctica.

Another comment rated off topic? 8, 32, 72, etc.That is what we are told and taught, but in reality, it is not what we oobserve.

If it makes you uncomfortable, go watch TV and stop reading this thread, or do some simple math and pretty soon you will be scratching your head and saying to yourself "WTF?"

What are you talking to yourself about? Post 8 was self-voted OT, post 32 was given a GA, and post 72 hasn't even been reached yet.

Lol, sorry Man, 8, 32, and 72 are the total curve in inches for the first, second and third mile. Based on the accepted equation of:

8" per mile X the distance squared.

For 2 miles it is:

(8x (2x2)) =32"

For the third mile:

(8x (3x3))=72"

Sorry for the confusion.

Will whoever rated this off topic tell me why. Is it because you are uncomfortable thinking outside of dogma, doctrine and dullshit?

"But the fact remains that according to the accepted math in books that is never applied in practice,"

Engineers believe that their equations are an approximation of reality.

Scientists believe that reality is an approximation of their equations.

Mathematicians are unable to make the connection.

Or as Yogi Berra once said: "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, in practice there is [a difference]."

What you see is not what you get. What you seeing is the virtual (looming) image of the horizon or what appears to be the horizon due to differences in refractive index between the surface, and above the surface. This creates a lens.

Get over it. It really does not have much to do with anything more than the green flash over the ocean at sunrise and sunset.

"Get over it. It really does not have much to do with anything more than the green flash over the ocean at sunrise and sunset."

You mean the Green Flash ISN'T the Flying Dutchman traveling between this world and the next?

Disney lied to me! Again!

()

Gravity pulls all things toward the earth's center. Seems simple to me, but maybe I'm simple? Or ... the earth is flat!

'Gravity pulls all things toward the earth's center.'

This isn't a very useful model. Local mass has a far greater effect than mass further away....which is a good thing, considering the barycenter for the Earth-Sun system is inside the Sun....and you wouldn't want you plumb-bob pointing there.

I had a test question in high school.

A 70 kilogram boy is sitting 3meters from a 55 kilogram girl. What is the attractive force between them?

The answer: It's not gravity.

This is just an observation.

I've noticed that when I have gone to the " Rant & Rave " section on Craigslist, there are always people that post messages using words like " Goober " and phrases like, " Drink the kool-aid.

I suppose one could expect that type of terminology to be used in a kiddie's room like Rant & Rave, but I never expected the same terminology to be used on a professional adult forum like cr-4.

Just an observation.

It's because of the unprofessional children that show up.

Well, some use 'goober' as a stand in for what is likely a several-line long crude, mocking insta-permaban-worthy insult, and 'drink the Kool Aid' is used to claim that the drinker has swallowed their political party's lies completely.

I admit, it's still childish, but that's pretty much what happens when you have a wide swath of political ideologies talking politics.

Just last night i saw an animation of Gondwana land breaking up and the plates drifting to the position we have today. India crashed into Asia pushing, or, overriding a projection that looked like a smaller version of today's India. I thought that this would make a particularly 'massy' part of the globe, especially when coupled with the Himalayas. This, i postulated, would be an area where the gravitational pull would be the greatest and the height of the ocean would be right up there. I remembered that you had posted this chart so i came back and looked; IT'S NOT! The greatest height is where two oceans crash into each other and simultaneously get squeezed between the tip of Africa and Antarctica. It seems to indicate that gravity from a land mass does little when compared to other forces. Jim

The map is not providing indication over land. It also does not show divergence from a line pointing to the volumetric center of the Earth.

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Crust that forms continents is generally dessert dense than that which forms sea floors...making it float on top. Also, as elevation increases (as distance from bulk of mass ncreases) less gravity is felt and as latitude decreases (centrifugal force) gravity is somewhat offset.

..and another thing. The variation in gravity is on the order of tenths of a percent, not solitary or few parts in a million.

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Ya know, it's kind of funny for someone who commits total belief in something without much solid evidence at all to harangue someone who points out a small but firmly established phenomenon.

LOD 5.9 year periodicity shows

This short paper shows the LOD 5.9 year cycle is correlated with changes in observable measurement of G by classical methods. Quantum measurements of G have other issues resulting in errors from the norm.

Magnitude of the periodic variation is about 10^-4G. So sorry, out of time.

I see you are maintaining your attempt to reframe your original disparaging commentary to a benign insistence on how close the magnitude of effect might be to an arbitrary point.

.

You were insultingly dismissive of me ostensibly for bringing up an effect that is well documented and germane to the discussion at hand. Now, rather than admit you were out of line, you struggle to repaint the exchange into one where you were right all along.

Are these actions typical of one well advised by the stories attributed to your particular flavor of god-myth? If so, I think we should consider handing the control of morals and ethics over to science and reason.

So now I see, your grudge continues. OK, I relent, you were right all along about gravity. It sucks. I am not the moral arbiter of Christianity, nor perfect in any shape, manner, or form. I know that I have to confess my failures, and shortcomings to God on a daily basis, and be honest with God that I need forgiveness.

Will you forgive me? I see you were offended by being called a "goober", a similar term would be "peanut". Around here that is a term of endearment, when we think a colleague is being "intense". I am what I eat, and I like peanuts, therefore I am a goober.

You have my apology, and my request for forgiveness. What you do about it is up to you.

I admit that I could have invested more time into researching my replies before I fired back at you. In the future, I will attempt to do so. Sorry if misleading anyone in the discussion, and by injecting erroneous thoughts into it.

Apology accepted.

I apologize for misreading your intent.

There was no offense on your part, no need to apologize, but accepted as peace for the sake of peace.

I look forward to the next argument discussion, with more optimism.

100m/4000 miles = 100m/6437376m = 15.5 ppm

So 100m sea level variation compared to earth radius is indeed of the order of ppm.

Hmmm,

ORIGINALLY the position was that the effect was too small to matter, practically immeasurable; and so insignificant that merely mentioning it was grounds for a psych eval and default labeling as a Koolaid drinking goober.

.....THEN it becomes clear that the effect is not miniscule, but on the order of 100m of sea level in the open ocean. Moreover the increase in gravity is more pronounced where massive dense material is closer....and correspondingly most pronounced where mountains actually break the surface....Remember (try, at least) inverse squared relationship.

....meaning this effect is not so easily dismissed and may play a major role in the question at hand (seeing Catalina from Laguna Beach not far from the high water mark).

Seems like a retraction, and perhaps an apology would be in order....BUT...

NOW there is this curious effort to reframe, to pretend as if the emphasis had always been solely claiming a metric could be found to divide the effect such that ppm would apply..._{.(parts per 100k, but whatever, I mean who measures sea height from the center of the Earth? It doesn't go that deep. Wait I bet you were always the tallest in your class, right? By 100s of miles of course)}

Ah, 'curious' isn't the right descriptor.

Well, now that you mentioned it, yes, I was taller.

I bet you are even taller, but I cannot get into my mind how sheite could be stacked that high.

I am thankful I do not know you in person.

Yes, it's not accurate, but it's a lie that most people can understand⁽¹⁾, and it's 'true enough' for most purposes⁽²⁾, such as building a house or a Great Pyramid, or making a physics model of the Earth, unless you are specifically studying local gravity.

Notes:

1. Look up "Lies to Children" on TV Tropes for more examples.
2. Just as pi can be rounded to 3.14 for most common calculations, and rarely needs more detail than 3.141579. If someone needs to know how much lace ribbon to buy to trim a round tablecloth that is X inches across, they'll probably just take 3X and round it up to however many inches are in a spool of lace ribbon. Then they'll buy that many spools, plus one extra spool to provide a 'buffer' in case some sections of the lace ribbon aren't usable.

Have you ever seen a plumb bob hang horizontally because there is a mountain to one side?

TINAC is correct in that local gravity varies all over the world due to local mass distributions. The various geological surveys wouldn't bother with detailed gravimetric mapping otherwise.

The rest of you vultures are also correct that the actual amount of variation is extremely difficult to detect and does not have much if any effect on ocean surface elevations, which are more affected by tidal forces, atmospheric pressure, coriolis forces, etc. Local ocean floor geometry in combination with those forces has an even greater effect, as in Bay Of Fundy.

Can't see what if anything this has to do with a wall, which can be built if we decide to and relatively cheaply, compared to most of the rest of the pork and boondoggles we fund as a country. Think of it as the next CCC program for the out of work and homeless. Technically, it's no big whoop. Whether we choose to enforce that border is the big issue, and technically, the tools are available and effective (including tunnel detection), if we choose to actually use them.

At this point, it is apparent that we don't intend to enforce, so it's a moot point. I recall a video from about a month ago of two drug runners climbing an existing section of fence with backpacks full of drugs and in sight of three border patrol vehicles. the border patrol did not approach the duo. The duo finally went back to the fence and climbed back over the fence when they realized that a reporter and film crew were taping them.

Sea level varies overy 100m due to local gravity anomalies.... not minor at all.

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I was going to post more links to MIT papers or similar, but no one is reading.

How incredibly unscientific and closed minded this group (with a very few exceptions) has show itself to be. How utterly disappointing.

A bit more support for your assertions about the local effects of mass on gravity - if the force was always directed to the center of mass of the Earth, the Cavendish Experiment could never have worked.

That experiment had to measure very slight deviations in the twisting of the wire.

I stand by my earlier statement; assuming gravity to be a vector pointing at the Earth's center of mass is an obvious lie, but it is a lie we can understand more easily than the truth, and a lie that we can use to get 'good enough' measurements for common, everyday projects and calculations.

Thank you.

The people caught up in the 'this is a very small effect' should think about how slight an incline can to be before water will flow down (how little is too little). Variations in gravity cause differences in sea surface level on the order of 100m.

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Also, some of you with decent memories might recall a study a few years back that calculate that if all the ice on Greenland melted that the sea level on Greenland's shores would actually fall....due to the difference in gravity for the glaciers present as opposed to absent. ...and that is just for ice, not stone.

100/(40,000,000/pi) ≈ 8 ppm.

Sure, because the natural comparison for changes in sea level is obviously....measurements from the center of the Earth. . And so relevant to the discussion of why Catalina might not be hidden by the curvature of the Earth. . I hope you are trolling on purpose.

I am not doing anything of the sort.

only in cartoons....

Wow! the idiocy factor underlying much of this thread's content is staggering!

I'd call it an 'ignorance factor' but even the ignorant hold themselves to higher standards of not knowing things.

True dat....I always like to give them enough rope that eventually it ends as it should....but at some point you have to take a firm hand....

No no no. That's a girly boy slap.

You need an Ottoman Slap. They can knock a grown horse at full gallop to the ground.

(it's sort of like getting slapped by Superman but your head stays attached to your body.)

RIP Gene Wilder

Put an open palm on that swing and that's basically what an Ottoman Slap is.

It ain't for sissies.

Alex Karras went on before Gene Wilder, God rest his merry soul.

I understand this is a new concept in the last 500 years but if you have an open mind check out this very good youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5i_iDyUTCg It is well done and technical and practical. If nothing else the scenery is beautiful.

This is a nice video if you have time to watch it, take it in parts. It may give you something to think about, that is all I am saying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5i_iDyUTCg Dang, I can't get it to hyperlink, shucks, sorry. Perhaps you can copy and paste in a browser. There is an excellent section, well covered, about the line of sight topic we have discussed. How can it be explained that ppl can see 150 miles into the distance when the horizon is supposedly 3 miles away if you are standing on the ground?

Because the elevation of the thing you are looking at has to factor into the equation.

First up, in my opinion, a wall will work, but it is not the correct solution.

Walls have proven effective for thousands of years that humans have been using them to protect what is valuable or keep out what is unwanted. Will this stop everyone from coming across? No. Humans are very determined and very clever. This will not stop people from tunneling under or swimming around so the effectiveness will be only a matter of degrees.

So, assuming we would want to proceed in this fashion, before we determine engineering challenges we would have to agree on what type of barrier we are building.

Will it be physical or psychological?

Will it be passive or active?

Will it be deterrent or lethal?

Manned/ Unmanned?

Once those questions are decided and the cost accepted then we come to the Engineering.

Why are we worrying so much about the border and building any kind of barrier when a huge influx of illegal immigration come right in the front door? 40% come in on a visa and then don't leave. We rarely bother to even look for them.

www.usatoday.com/story/.../immigration-visa-overstays.../79026708/

Why? the focus is being lost here. Here is the reason vetting controls has to improve.

This is one we know about and caught.

Now, the thing about illegals is that they don't come into this country and be a burden to the economy and expecting gold and silver.

How about a focused sonic repulsive beam, since that technology exists now. It would cover tunnels, water crossings, etc. and would make the "victims" sick to their stomachs so they would have no choice but to turn back.

I hear it is a focused play-back of Hillary C's laughter.

Ok James, what would be the cost of such a barrier? how would it be erected? What is its range? Also, I don't think Hillary's laugh would work since she is popular with latinos. how about some death metal?

I think this "sound barrier" might cost a lot less than and be more practical than a hard wall.

Basically, the towers the speakers would sit on would allow for panning the sound to a focal point not more than 200 meters away. That means a lot of towers and speakers over the thousands of miles.

We are still talking billions of pesos. After all, did not the Mexican President just invite Trump down to write him a check for the wall? I think Trump better check the check to see if it is printed on rubber. Not that I don't trust a Mexican, but us Texans do have history with those hockey pucks.

I think I got hit by one of those coming out of my TV, but it didn't sound like Hillary Laughing, it sounded like Trump talking about how hot his daughter is, and how he'd jump her if she weren't related.

Different people are nauseated by different things.

I mentioned that as a possible solution in the last now closed wall thread.

On par with the wall idea and my other proposed solutions including just plain invading and absorbing Mexico. Both are as viable as a wall but with obvious serious disadvantages and/or exploitable loopholes making them boondoggles like a wall would realistically be to those serious and motivated enough to want in to the US.

Where?, usually the distraction from members who disagree and want to distract from talking/discussing about the feasibility of building a wall, if a wall at all (as mention in earlier posts, could be a natural deterrent, fence, barbed wire, electronic,...)

frankly, one had to take a look at some data, such as a topographical map along the border would be the next step.

I totally agree tcmtech, like I have said several times in this discussion a wall can built almost anywhere given enough determination and money. I introduced the topic of the curvature of the earth on purpose just to see what people would say about it because I am still confused as to why I can see further than 3 miles standing on the ground looking over a flat surface but I think we beat that horse long enough and we should get back to an actual wall or border of some kind. Thanks, I still like the videos though as they are more representative to actual experience for me. For example, if no one ever told me I was living on a spinning ball flying through space at incredible speeds, it never would have crossed my mind, good thing we have NASA and other smart people tell us what we do not know :)

That's what derailed this ridiculous thread in the first place: the introduction of the all-but-irrelevant topic of earth curvature into wall building.

So, way back on post 95 I did make an effort to redirect this discussion back towards the topic introduced.

Finally, post 128 actually addressed one of the questions I suggested and put forth a novel Ideal of a sonic barrier. No one took it up so here we are over post 150. I have no knowledge in this area so would love to hear from those who do as to what would be involved to pull something like this off?

I think the power draw is low or next to nothing while on standby, but once triggered, we are talking up to a kilowatt of peak power? It is high tech, and high power.

Like my stereo used to be. LoL

Given the location perhaps a stored solar power system with grid back up then?

I'm thinking that a combination motion sensor infra red as a trigger, but what about vehicles? Will this system be effective against people simply driving over? I'm thinking probably not, but again, not an expert. I guess we could always couple a microwave projector to it similar to the Army's "heat ray" weapon.

No, I am pretty sure the vehicle will not be an effective sound dampening system for this personnel entry denial system. It has been adapted by the army already, I am pretty sure, but not certain. Nothing ensures victory in an assault situation (not that the border is that), BUT I would rather be assaulted by a nauseated enemy that is too sick to raise their weapon, than the alternative. It would not obviously prevent a serious enemy from firing artillery or tank round from long range to disable the device(s). It is not a particularly hard target but is indeed somewhat durable.

This just in!!!!, well a few years ago.....I guess it was overlooked....

"The largest wave of immigration in history from a single country to the United States has come to a standstill. After four decades that brought 12 million current immigrants—most of whom came illegally—the net migration flow from Mexico to the United States has stopped and may have reversed, according to a new analysis of government data from both countries by the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center."

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/23/net-migration-from-mexico-falls-to-zero-and-perhaps-less/

So I guess we no longer need a wall......nevermind....hahaha

It's the Chinese we have to worry about now....

They already have a wall. Maybe they could just move it to the Pacific coast.

In New England, you see stone walls along every road. These were field stones the farmers carried to the edge of their field. Every now and then the local stone masons would add the new field stones to the previous wall sections and the results are all the stone walls around the properties.

Maybe we should genetically engineer an armadillo to naturally build hedge rows along the border, but that would put a lot of otherwise homeless, out of work people out of work building a fence.

That Hoover hog would just get run over by the four wheelers crossing the border.

That is about the only time I see one any more (found on side of road toes up). They seem to be incapable of calculating the speed of oncoming traffic, and don't move just really fast, anyhow.

But there's some good eatin' in there.