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An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 7:36 AM

An Indian Frigate flipped over in the dock, I've never heard this happening. I've heard of ships not sitting level in the water after the launch and/or pulling too much draft.

I would like to know who the shipyard that built this was as well as the designer.

For one thing that comes to mind is where is the ballast.

The moment of inertia plays a very big part here, and when designing a ship you have to always be aware of weight, the changes due to up grades as the build carries on.

It'll be interesting as things progress in the investigation.

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#1

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 9:09 AM

Cowabunga!

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#2

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 10:53 AM

So, a workman was standing by the rail when he saw a beautiful woman begin to undress.

He yelled, "hey fellas, come over here and look at this".

And the rest is, as they say, history.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 11:05 AM

And the new seaman who suffers from dyslexia was working in the bowels of the ship came across a hatch near the keel with a sign that says.... . DO NOT OPEN

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#4

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 11:11 AM

Ship launchings are not always a graceful event....

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 12:56 PM

I've seen videos where it took out bleachers where the spectators were sitting on.

It looked as though they were 'flush'.

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#30
In reply to #4

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 10:08 AM

Thanks for a great video!!!

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#5

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 12:55 PM

Rediff says the vessel was "...indigenously designed and built..."

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/ins-betwa-tips-over-during-undocking-in-mumbai/20161205.htm

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 1:01 PM

The ship yard, prior to when I worked there designed and built a large patrol craft.

When it was launched, the bow sat high in the water, while the fantail, sat low in the water.... really low.

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#13
In reply to #7

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 6:32 PM

We had a similar problem with one of our navel support ships. It was supposed to have a helicopter landing deck but for some reason (budget cuts I think) we had it supplied without, needless to say the loss of weight seriously effected the final design.

The solution was to fill the hull with concrete to get it to sit right in the water. Lots and lots of concrete.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 7:07 PM

That's what ballast is for... to compensate mistakes

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#15
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 7:22 PM

Disregard, 911 covered it.

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 7:37 PM

Not exactly a speed demon?

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#18
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 9:19 PM

No, but better that than it rolling over in the harbour when a wave hits it the wrong way.

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 1:34 PM

Was it built with FPS bricks?

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#9

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 2:31 PM

I would guess that it was being dry docked for repairs, and wasn't yet secure when too much water was removed from the dock.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 2:39 PM

that sounds pretty good... this doesn't 'just' happen, especially in dry dock.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 5:19 PM

Well, it might, if the supports were built from FPS bricks.

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#11

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 4:55 PM

Looks to be at about the right angle for sailing at Australian latitudes.

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#17

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/06/2016 8:35 PM

Much more important than mere weight, or even moment of inertia, is how the center of buoyancy moves as the vessel lists/rolls.

Righting moment (or overturning moment) is not the same as moment of inertia.

Someone miscalculated, of course. Once in operation, this function is the responsibility of the first mate, but this incident may have happened beforehand.

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#19

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/07/2016 3:55 AM

I would guess that an amateur took charge and screwed it up right royally.....that happens a lot in India, then they come to CR4 to find out how to do "it!"

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#20
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/07/2016 6:21 AM

Isn't it better to be informed and responsible rather than be arrogant and bull headed and waste the money of tax paying citizens. This why there is a saying " it is better to be a fool for a day than tomorrow " If you aren't willing to learn and be humble you will keep making huge errors which might lead to someone's death. I believe this site can help resolve mistakes and help engineers become better. No Offense to anybody.. :)

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#23
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/07/2016 1:46 PM

There is a limit (or grey area if you will) where we have to say "no, you shouldn't do this it isn't safe, pay a professional to do this for you".

Where that grey area is is not as clear cut on an Engineering forum and varies a little from person to person based on their experience and personal views.

I am sure if this were a medical forum and an anonomus poster was claiming to be a paid doctor working in a hospital how to perform a certain operation on a patient that could mean the life or death of said patient it would be viewed differently, but it shouldn't be.

This example could result in the death of one person, where some of the engineering design questions we get asked could result in the death of far more if a pressure vessel ruptures, a hazardous area plant explodes or a building catches fire or falls down.

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#24
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/07/2016 2:29 PM

If you had a backbone, you would not have posted as a troll!!!

Your post is simple cowardice!! Your choice!!

I stand by what I said, too often in India, the "relative" gets the job, instead of the best trained!!

We see it here time after time, sometimes several times a month, as well as on other websites.

Till that practice changes of promoting a relative, there will constantly be loss of life and other serious mistakes, totally unnecessary in India!! A country full of top quality workers at all levels.

Its called Nepotism. See here:-

Nepotism

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/07/2016 4:03 PM

I never cared much for the cast system of employment.

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 12:49 AM

Apologies if you assumed i was insulting you or something. As far as my Backbone is concerned i believe its still intact :) . Nevertheless the reason i did post it was because your post contained something inappropriate stating that people come to CR4 because they don't know how to do it. As far as Nepotism in the Indian Navy is rare but generally speaking it always happens not only in India but also in every country whether you like it or not. I had my potential job taken because the guy next to me was related to the management of the company. They do that with the assumption that the candidate is trustworthy " Maybe"

The fact is the person who was supposed to help with the maintenance of this frigate miscalculated and caused this from what we can gather, the main cause is always people not asking the right questions like " What if i am calculating it wrong let me see or ask someone if they can advise me if I am wrong. The first picture is showing that the frigate was properly designed probably . So the chances are that the maintenance crew probably did something wrong...

See here http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.in/2016/12/indian-navy-frigate-flips-over-while.html

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 2:01 AM

Such calculations are not typically under purview of the maintenance crew.

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 5:22 AM

You demonstrate a singular lack of knowledge about ships and dockyards. I was in the RN many years ago, the Indian Navy has strong connections with the RN over a great many years, till that is they left the British commonwealth....This meant that THEN, they followed RN policies in everything....today, apparently not.....

But do remember this:-

THE SHIPS CREW HAS LITTLE OR NOTHING TO DO WITH SUCH DOCKING OPERATIONS!

THAT'S A DOCKYARD (CIVVY) OFFICER'S JOB ONLY!

"Heads will also have to roll for the accident on Monday. Naval dock-masters are responsible for the complex and delicate operation of a warship's docking and undocking in the dry dock," said a senior officer.

The crew might ASSIST in bringing the ship into/out of the drydock, but all the rest is under the guidance of a Dockie and his mates.....

As I said before, Nepotism is often the problem, its a double edged sword.

Such people are not only often incapable of doing the job (but think that they can!), but the people they "command", will not risk their jobs by adding helpful words or warnings either.....so such accidents are a serious problem in the Indian sub continent.

A careful look at all the pictures of this accident, appear to show no shoring lying around, none! You would think that a few pieces would be seen floating around!! But NONE?????

So someone went and tidied it all away before the pictures were made? I think not!!

The way they will probably right the ship, is to drain the dock, seal up the ship after pumping out any water its taken on, then flood the dock and she will right herself, heavily damaged of course. Then a qualified Dock engineer will pump out the dock and "Shore up" the ship properly and repairs will start.

My guess is not only was shoring completely removed far too soon, but the ship was probably misaligned on the blocks as well....."slipped from her dock blocks" according to news reports....but that can only happen once the shoring is removed, and the ship is not fully floating at least and inch or two above the blocks, e.g. no weight at all on them, that is the point in time when shoring will fall into the water, or be helped, not before.

The major error was possibly made in April 2016 and never corrected....you can see that the ship had been partially stripped, no anchors are shipped for example, so the ship was most likely 100% still in dockyard hands....

It may be that the ship is on a floating dock, one that has an open side, where she should then be on double (or even triple) blocks. Then shoring may not be a requirement. There appears to be a second ship either in the dock, or close to the open side. Its difficult to decipher!

Maybe the balance of the dock was lost as they pumped its tanks out? Only speculation....

In the RN, our few floating docks that I saw, were double sided for reasons of safety.

But still posting anonymously, is still the way a cowardly Troll posts......who is totally unsure of what he is posting, which you should be as you simply don't have a clue!! So stay anonymous!!! Its probably better for you!!!

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 7:20 AM

I don't know about military, but when docking that Captain turns over the control of the ship to the Dock Master. I'm sure its the something similar.

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#32
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 12:41 PM

I would guess its the same all over.

I have been on ships that were drydocked many times over the years, the "Dockies" ALWAYS ran the whole thing.

Great care was taken with the measurements from bow and stern to shore, to make sure that the ship sits exactly on the blocks, BEFORE it is sat!!!! Inches were important....

As soon as the blocks take weight, for and aft, and the measurements are correct, the shoring, with wedges, was placed in position all round the ship, to prevent the "tipping" that the Indian ship had....!

Once the water was all removed, then further shoring would be cut and fitted with wedges to keep the ship absolutely in place, mainly on very heavy ships.....

When flooding, the ship would be allowed to fully float, with all the shoring in position, before any that had not fallen the water already, would be removed.....

I am assuming that the ship in question did not have a massive unnoticed leak that unbalanced her....in the RN, the ships company would be distributed below decks to make sure that no compartments leaked while flooding the dock....there is always a small (lazy because nothing to do!) ships company available, not necessarily living on board, but doing safety shifts...!!

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 1:13 PM

hence the reason for my original, somewhat snarky, comment. I don't see any evidence of shoring or tie offs in the dock.

Granted the rust bucket next to it seems to also be sitting flat, but it could be tied off on the starboard side.

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#40
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/14/2016 7:14 AM

That is true for the US Navy as well. Went through about 8-10 dockings/undockings during my tenure in the Navy. Once the bow of the ship passes the sill of the dock, it is the docking officers responsibility as long as the ship is in dock. I've been out of the Navy for 20 years but I doubt that has changed.

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#31
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 10:39 AM

Funny you should mention the RN. That ship does bear more than a passing resemblance to world war two British warships, especially the bridge and superstructure.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 1:12 PM

Actually I had a similar thought, but more from the 50s and 60s, ships on which I actually sailed on!!

For example HMS Puma, built in the early 50s:-

That was a VERY modern design at the time!!!

The gun turret aft was mine for over a year!! Really great fun!!

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#35
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/08/2016 5:17 PM

Andy,

is that a twin 4.5 inch?

I worked at Williamstown dockyard in Melbourne Australia from 1977 to 1988 when we were modernizing the Australian river class destroyers which, if I remember correctly, were based on a Leander class hull. They had a twin 4.5inch mounting for'ard with mortars or Ikara or seacat aft ...... all long gone now....

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/09/2016 4:24 AM

Correct!

Mark 44.

A colleague of mine was resetting the mechanical electronic "sender" unit for the elevation, but had not switched off the amps or the hydraulics. He brought the whole weight of both guns and all the loading equipment on his head/body- There is little spare room when the gun goes to full elevation!! FAST!

Squashed him like a blood orange!! Instantly dead!!! I doubt that he suffered more than a second at the most.....stupidity.....

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/09/2016 7:24 AM

Ohhwwww,... even though I could add to that... I'm going to refrain.

Otherwise this would just get into a match on who has the biggest scar.

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#21

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/07/2016 10:23 AM

When asked about the shoring, the new yard master replied, what shoring? It's already on shore you fool!

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#22

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/07/2016 10:30 AM

So that's why you have to do the weight and moment calculations!

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#38

Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/09/2016 6:56 PM

Before a ship I was on was given Coast Guard approval after winches were added on deck, it had to pass a 'roll test'. Afloat, weights were added and removed to the sides and roll times and recovery times were recorded. Something like that. I was installing the hydraulics, and spent a lot of time on board.

Maybe the Indian ship was undergoing such tests, and failed......

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#39
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/10/2016 3:48 AM

According to the news reports, it was still on the blocks and slipped off....unforgivable.

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#41
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/22/2016 2:32 PM

Just ... "A ship off the old blocks."

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#42
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Re: An Indian Frigate Flipped Over In The Dock

12/23/2016 4:16 AM

LOL!!!

AND TRUE!!!

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