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A Question for the Budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 2:40 PM

I have an aluminium garden fence with gate posts which have oval solid steel tops. The ovals insert into hollow posts (about half an inch) and weigh a few ounces so they are not being blown off in the wind. They also wedge quite tightly into the posts.

Recently I've been heading to work and finding the oval bit lying on the ground. At first I thought the kids had pulled them off but they haven't touched them.

Why is this happening?

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#1

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 2:46 PM

Your aluminum posts are shrinking from the cold weather, and your steel tops are popping like corks....

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#2

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 2:50 PM

Leprechauns. Oops, Scotland, not Ireland.

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#6
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 4:09 PM

Illegal Leprechauns?

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#12
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 2:43 AM

Leprechauns on holiday in Scotland prior to Scexit?

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#3

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 3:38 PM

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#4

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 3:53 PM

That is because the Greys have been lingering about on your property. They are the real cattle thieves. You need a new herdsman, and I know such a man, Rob Roy, by name, who will herd your cattle down from the highlands, and feed them in the lowlands, and be back in Scotland afor ye.

In lieu of Rob Roy, get a Kimber. If you catch a Grey with his three-fingered slimy cold hand on one of your fence finials, then you have your answer.

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#5

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 4:05 PM

Oval? That's definitely an egg shape. I think someone wants to eat the egg and then when they realize it's not an egg they drop it.

Look for broken teeth on the ground.

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#15
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 3:19 AM

Birds with teeth? Like Pterodactyls?

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#7

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 4:21 PM

Issue: In uncertain something is happening at an uncertain time.

Solution: Motion activated camera will capture and record an image of a certain something and certainly record the time.

What say you, Doctor Watson?

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#8
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 4:47 PM

Elementary, Sherlock, elementary!

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#9

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 6:47 PM

look up the phrase, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"

you'll have your answer

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#10

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/19/2017 9:39 PM

If the post and the steel tops are not tapered, I doubt differential thermal contraction is the issue.

I know that you said "wedge", but.................

Just for fun, throw one of the steel tops in the freezer overnight and then heat the post top with a torch, just before you reassemble them. Then sit back and watch.

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#11

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 1:54 AM

If the bottom of the fence post is sealed, there might be a way for water to seep in, freeze and expand, and lift the finial off. [?]

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#27
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 9:06 AM

So the solution is to drill a small (3mm or so) weep hole in the bottom of the fence post tube, so the water can drain off.

I have seen similar effects on large crimped-on cable terminals used on electrical station circuit breakers, etc. The cable sweeping down from the bus above to the breaker's bushings is a nice path for the water to run down, which then collects in the natural "cup" of the terminal which has been compressed on the cable's end. If a weep hole is not provided by the terminal manufacturer or drilled in the field by the installer, the resulting ice during winter weather expands and splits the terminal. Notice the bulge and crack down near the pad of the terminal in the photos - a lot of force there!

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#39
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 11:59 AM

Believe it or not but that little hole in a lug is for ensuring a visual inspection that the conductor is seen to be fully inserted into the lug. And any lug connection should face with the barrel pointing downwards to prevent any water ingress along the exposed conductor, into the lug. If the compression of the lug/palm connector is done properly, i.e hex crimp as shown, the conductor is squeezed sufficiently to become almost solid with near to no air pockets.

But as ali is not a solid, but flows from any compression points, the palm connector/lug still needs to be installed barrel facing down and the curve on the conductor allows water to flow away from the barrel. We call it a goose neck. Alternately I would have used this;

And looking at the photo, I would suggest the palm connector was wrongly crimped at installation stage and the fracture was made at crimping stage. It must have had a nice corona.

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#42
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/23/2017 11:31 AM

I was aware that at least some lugs have a hole for inspection purposes, but for an installation where water can run down the conductor and into the barrel of the lug, the hole also serves to allow it to drain.

It is often not possible to build a high voltage installation such that the barrel points downward - Usually the bus height is above the elevation of the breaker bushings, for example.

You may think that proper compression of the lug would eliminate all the voids, but if you cut cross-sections of the compressed fitting, you would find all sorts of little crevices through which the water can seep. And water, being the small molecule it is, WILL find its way through them. You cannot crimp the connection enough to eliminate all the voids.

These crimps were done properly, and the connectors were fine when installed two years before the photo. The bulging and cracking was from water that had entered the barrel and frozen, but since the installer had not drilled weep holes (since the Mfr didn't provide them), the ice did its thing. Other lugs with weep holes in different parts of the same switchyard didn't have this problem.

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#44
In reply to #42

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/23/2017 12:41 PM

Never built a sub or yard where I have lug barrels facing upwards. Not even in the US. Bad design practice allows for upward facing lugs, hence the drawing for the correct connector method.

The hole was originally for soldering, (or if in the US, 'soddering'). The lug was soldered, (wiped), and the hole allowed the installer to enure the lug barrel was filled with conductor and wiping metal. The barrel, when filled, the wiping metal flows out of the hole, ensuring a filled void.

Hence, a water block and sealed lug, just like that!

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#45
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/23/2017 1:34 PM

Not necessarily bad design - done by many, and works fine if done properly. Certainly much easier than trying to construct a drip loop in 2500kcm cable, which does NOT bend very easily. If drop loops were included on these connections, it would add at least 6'-8' of additional space needed on each side of each breaker, and in a breaker-and-a-half station would increase the width of the station by 35' to 50'. That's not always easy real estate to justify.

So it's a design choice, and with proper attention to the details, results in no problem.

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#47
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/23/2017 2:01 PM

What voltage? Yep I know breaker and a half spacing. I would still go with the palm clamp as choice for the reason of non-water collecting. But each to their own I guess. One learns a lot working around the world and I tend to stick with what works longest and best with little hassle for maintenance, and some of these 22tonne compression crimpers are too heavy to handle, where a socket and ratchet are far lighter and quicker to use and far easier for adjusting the conductor lay.

I sent some info previously, that may assist.

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#48
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/24/2017 7:54 AM

115kV & 345kV. We try to avoid bolted connectors because they have more potential for loose connections and overheating. Of course, there is still the bolted connection from the bushing to the cable lug, but at some point those are unavoidable. IR inspections can catch them, but in a major transmission station, getting an outage to deal with a hot connection can be a pain, so we want as few as possible.

The grease/anti-ox compound is good, but it can never get fully in between all the strands of the cable, and as I said you cannot fully compress all the voids out of it. We do use it, but it is not the ultimate solution.

Anyway, it could be done either way, each with its advantages and drawbacks. Thanks for the input.

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#46
In reply to #42

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/23/2017 1:48 PM

Additional info

http://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html

If you have an upward facing barrel, make sure the barrel is flooded with something similar to the above and just space the crimps out by 5mm, i.e hex crimp +5mm, hex crimp+5mm and the if there is any moisture in the barrel after that, it will not freeze and damage the barrel. The excess grease is wiped off as it squeezes out the barrel.

Crimp steps as such above.

NB: this is bimetalic ferrules but see the ring steps between crimps.

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#13

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 2:45 AM

Because no-one has glued them on?

(usual disclaimer)

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#14

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 2:51 AM

Two dissimilar metals with different coefficients of expansion/contraction and an increase in air pressure in the tube, results in a popped off finial. A small breather hole in the post should allow the finial to stay in place.

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#16

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 3:19 AM

Ok, I know I haven't given people much time to answer but Tornado gets the glory. My wife actually went out one particularly cold morning and saw this.

I just thought this was pretty cool (sorry) and the idea of moving things with ice could be used in a murder mystery (like the fantastic Jonathan Creek series here in the UK).

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#17
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 3:40 AM

That looks like ~11% expansion, all right!

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#18
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 5:00 AM

Mayhaps Mrs. Watson was observing her trials for further testing. 'The Finial Murders of Sauchiehall St'.

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#26
In reply to #16

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 8:42 AM

I believe you have exposed an even greater mystery, how did that pole get filled with water?

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#30
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 10:43 AM

I really would never have expected that. Can you lift a large limestone block enough to get a chain under it this way? Could ice be used to drive wedges into the seam where blocks are to be cleaved from the formation?

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#41
In reply to #30

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/21/2017 8:59 PM

Ever seen what a freeze-thaw cycle does to masonry (roads, walks etc.)?

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#43
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/23/2017 12:17 PM

We tend to use pre-formed concrete items for dog and bird watering device by one of our trees. During a recent cold weather snap from the arctic (but here in Lubbock Texas), the temperature reached about 4-6 °F (on the ground), and that is -15.6 to -14.4 °C.

The first container developed a crack and no longer holds water. I tried to seal the outside of this one with Flex-Seal (did not work at all for me, and would not stick to the concrete). I bought another one (bird bath bowl) from a stone and rock landscape place, and it also leaks, due to a crack already present (could not see due to dirt in it at time of purchase). I used Rockite (gypsum Portland cement) inside the basin of this one about 1/8" thick, let's see how long it lasts, but so far it holds water quite well. Gypsum Portland cement seems to cure stronger with long term water exposure, but I wonder about differential thermal expansion of the two separate types of concrete present.

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#33
In reply to #16

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 11:03 AM

Who fills it with water?

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#40
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 3:27 PM

One's reach should always exceed one's grasp.

Clearly this finial is well on its way to greater things

Like the yard.

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#19

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 5:16 AM

I find steel and aluminium together, will corrode, possibly pushing the tops out!

I would never ever put the two together, without something to prevent corrosion.

May I suggest cleaning one tube and one top and smearing the contact area with grease. This will not prevent corrosion completely, but it should slow it down dramatically!

If this is true and this one comes out "far" slower, you know that this is the problem.... But how to fix it is another problem!!!

Possibly turning down the tops and putting a plastic sleeve over where it has tube contact, it to take up the difference to the tube comes to mind.....guessing only!!

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#20

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 5:47 AM

Aberdeen, this time of year. I'm freezing my ***** off down here on the SE coast. Maybe your fence has had a similar experience ?

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#21
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 5:59 AM

You have lost your stars? I have to be honest, I never gave icing up a consideration. Now who would have thought that? The obvious, if we had known the facts. Good one.

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#22
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 6:23 AM

If I walk to the local pub, I have a hangover next morning. WALKING IS DANGEROUS, AVOID IT !

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#23
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 6:49 AM

Walking! Walking is dangerous? Sir, life is a death sentence and it is a transmittable diesease. Be warned. Walking should be a doddle.

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#24
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 7:25 AM

On the bright side, that sort of implies death is a life sentence. My previous life was as a maggot and if karma is good, my next one will be some place without politicians.

Life truly is a doddle....

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#25
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 8:11 AM

Well for sure life has not been a party so far. Some idiot told me it gets better. I shall wring his neck the next time I see him for lying to me. I was previously a cobble stone, but, I got better.

I like your hand held doddle.

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#29
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 10:03 AM

It's my bad, I thought you wrote doodle. Still, it is cute. I'm going to look in the shops for one.

1 hour until Mr Trump is sworn in. The BBC censors may have a busy time of it.

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#32
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 10:54 AM

Yes, we all know what a low opinion Brits have of swearing. In, out, all swearing is looked down upon. Get used to populism O ye with brow raised to the pinnacles, thy pride has precipitated a fall...

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#34
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 11:19 AM

It's sort of like 'going to the bathroom' has us confused. Exactly what do you do in there ? Please don't tell me

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#36
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 11:30 AM

What! You have a bathroom? Absolute luxury sir. The Bits swear by outdoorsmanship. The world is a bathroom. It is full of sh...shi....shifted eyed politicians who make it all c..cr...lousy.

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#35
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 11:25 AM

Well I wish he would hurry up as it is messing the world up. All waiting for him to do his deeds and then the world can get moving along. But, he has certainly shaken up the world as we know it. Time for change for Joe Public, bit Ben Business does not like he change and the say Change is Good. I think they mean the change you get at the supermarket that fills pockets.

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#31
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 10:52 AM

So then, you went from being a cobble stone, to being in a rut? LOL

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#37
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 11:33 AM

No sir, I grew up to be a boulder of society, A Building Society. A foundation for humanity and a corner stone of wealth. I did say I got better.

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#38
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Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 11:44 AM

Really? Who is making excrement on whom here? You expect me to believe you on that?

Not unless you are God does any of that fit. All knowledge and wisdom belongs to God, and comes to us directly from the One who holds all the heavens in the palm of His hand.

Are you sure you are not just the chip on some old professor's shoulder?

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#28

Re: A question for the budding Sherlock Holmes

01/20/2017 9:21 AM

Place small set screw to hold cap on post

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#49

Re: A Question for the Budding Sherlock Holmes

01/28/2017 1:30 PM

Were has been manufactured the top ? Could the behavior not be a consequence of the Brexit ?

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#50
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Re: A Question for the Budding Sherlock Holmes

01/30/2017 9:41 AM

Not Brexit at all, it was in reaction to Prime Minister May passing by, she is a hottie!

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