High Fidelity

There is no shortage of music snobs that insist that tube amplifiers from the past sound better....I think CD's sound better than playing the same music off an "i" device....it just sounds crisper....It might be true that vinyl sounds better than CD's, but is it worth the trouble and expense, the answer to that is going to be subjective ....Personally I think anyone that takes that much time and effort is overgeeking, a few beers and who cares, turn it up and shut up....haha

Question: Do tube ampfliers require a "cross-over" eliminator network?

Some semiconductors, mainly older versions of NPN or PNP transistors have a serious cross-over potential distortion.

MOSFETS apparently do not have that problem so much, in that gate potential can regulate source-drain current without that same distortion, much more readily.

One should really look at the quality of the output devices (speakers) as much as the amplifier devices.

If one cannot keep a CD clean, and free of fingerprints and hair and scratches, how can they pretend to be able to keep a vinyl record clean?

Rixter, thanks for the refresher in amplifier design. Going back to 1986, I was in college and in a 300 level course in transistors. I remember learning about the different amplifier designs.

I also remember Carver creating amplifiers that mimicked the sound of ultra high end hi-fi at a fraction of the cost. I actually saved up enough pennies and bought one of his receivers a year later.

Irregardless of the cost of the equipment, or the reproduction accuracy of the media, the sound I hear is no better than my hearing aids

Hmmm.

Irrespective of the 'ir' at the front, 'irregardless' is commonly used to mean 'regardless' and not the opposite.

Quite irregular.

Does that mean if you ir-spoke, you remained silent? I cannot see that happening ever.

Of course you wouldn't see that happening. It isn't something that could be heard either.....more of a lack than an actual occurrence, really.

LOL.

I caught my boss saying that the other day and I called him out on it. He admitted it and we laughed.

I too smiled at "irregardless".

I'm fully with you there. I'll be kind and call it indulging nostalgia rather than a fad, in the same way that I used to play with an Apple][ instead of a full-fledged PC. The virtue of a valve amplifier was that it overloaded gracefully.

When I was a teenager, the only music that I listen to was Rock&Roll with the volume turned up to the threshold of pain.. When I was old enough to appreciate "good" music I was too deaf to tell the difference between a good system and bad. Anyway, I still prefer Rock&Roll played at max volume.

I built a 12" ported subwoofer box just for my lounge home entertainment system but rarely do I use it because I have a decent set of speakers that provide enough base to sound good while not overwhelming the rest of the range.

Quality over quantity really does make for a better every-day sound experience in my opinion. I SAID QUALITY OVER

It makes no difference if vinyl sounds better, it's only necessary that there are people who believe it does. If there are enough folks with the bucks to spend, a company will make what they want to spend them on. It's free enterprise.

I myself am just as happy with a memory stick full of mp3 music.

Progress? Audio snaps, pops, crackles, rumbles and wows are back! ? !

Yep. As someone who doesn't discard equipment I have recently been listening to my stock of vinyls (although I usually listen to my CDs). The only real differences I find are the snaps and crackles encountered with the vinyls. I'll take the vinyls anytime because the musical performances were much better then.

This news has brought back some great memories. Back in the 80s & 90s my living room was set up with and Empire Troubadour 598 transcription table, Phase Linear 4000 Aotocorrelation Pre-amp with sonic holography, Phase Linear 400 power amp hooked up to a pair of Altec-Lansing VOTT speakers, (Valencia 846B). After hearing it described as "frightening" I bought this album.

Allow me to explain to those of you who may not be familiar with Direct to Disk. Normally an event is recorded then the recording is used to make a master from which albums are made. The process is pretty much the same for all types of music media. The limitation here is the recording media, which allows for a peak to programming ratio of about 10 to one. Programming level being the average sound level and peak happens when someone nails the kettle drum real hard. With direct to disk they cut the master real time on site. This allows for as much as a 20 to 1 ratio. If you are accustomed to listening to music with your volume set at "3" on a scale of 1-10, and do not know what this type of record is capable of, you stand a good chance of blowing out your speakers when they nail the kettle drum. No other recording media can match this level of dynamics. I am not an audiophile, you do not need to be to appreciate this.

Being in Audio reproduction, for many years, as an Advocate, not an Engineer, I have run through various systems , many high , many low. I had a Teac 5500 Reel to Reel, that I used to record and transfer , from people in the Industry, recorded vinyl snips, and tape transfers, , obscure recordings , that later went on to become parts of very popular recordings...Nitty Gritty Dirt band, the Byrds, Crosby, without Stills, Stills, without Crosby, Jackson Browne and many others.

The reel to reel stuff was so accurate, it blew me away. Went through all of the 8 track,Mini -8, CD , DVD etc, and am of the opinion, ..Tah Dah. It is not so much the quality of the reproduction, it is the quality of the PRODUCTION. the Recording itself. I have some recordings of groups like Little Feat (Live:Waiting for Columbus.) Johnny Nash, "I can see Clearly Now", "Girl from Ipanema" , Brubeck, Live with Paul Desmond and Jerry Mulligan (We are all Together for the First Time), the Original "Time Has Come Today, , , Chambers Brothers", Los Lobos, all, Paul Desmond, "Pick up Sticks", Joan Armatrading "Down to Zero", Lyle Lovett (Choose one, same J.J. Cale, with Eric Clapton. Branford Marsellis, (Symphonies ), The McGarrigles, Little Willies, and so many classical pieces, , too many to mention.....On and on. Whatever was recorded properly will shine on any equipment of equal quality. I went through 10 different high end systems, with cables costing thousands, interconnects in the $1500 range, BUT, found out , that at My Age, the quality of My ears and memories of the pieces are far more important than the quality of the equipment. I had my most fun listening to a 2-channel car radio, in the late 50's and 60's, listening to the Marcels, with "Blue Moon", and all the Doo Wop, the Beach boys, Jan and Dean, Take 5 with Brubeck, and the early Beatles (Love me Do), all in mono..But , with a six pack of cold beer, and someone siting next to you that liked the same music, and danced to it too.. You can never beat that...

I remember hearing an interview with an older blues and jazz legend, might have been Ray Charles, who , when being interviewed, was asked why he only had a little boom box in his apartment? His rely was" Why do I need to hear the sound, when it is all in my head???"

Thanks for the "ears'. Much appreciated.

This thread is becoming an excuse for a nostalgia trip. Potentially for me too as I am a retired engineer who spent years in the studio and broadcast industries, but I hasten to add that I gave away all my hundreds of vinyl records, turntables, reel-to-reel tape machines etc 25 years ago.

If it doesn't live on a hard disk or flash drive, I don't have it.

There is plenty to chew over about how to get the best sound reproduction at home, whatever the source. Another topic. Reverting to vinyl can only degrade the source, all except for low bit-rate MP3s and the like which have their own unpleasantness.

Some thoughts:

1. most of the new albums which might become available on vinyl were recorded, mixed and mastered on digital mixers.

2. most of the all-analog re-issues have at least 5% distortion on peaks and HF compression due to having been through 3 or 4 generations of tape.

3. taking any available recorded source and subjecting it to the vagaries of vinyl, even direct cut, can only significantly degrade the audio quality.

4. if you prefer listening to vinyl then look for reasons other than sound quality!

Cheers!

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I can't play a lick of music, but I love listening to it. When I was a teenager, I thought bigger was better. I had these huge three way speakers with 15" woofers, hard dome mids and hard dome tweeters (Shure pro stuff). It was hooked up to a 150 wpc solid state receiver (Project One MK 1500 - here it is http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROJECT-ONE-MARK-1500-/152491244574?hash=item23812fbc1e:g:cuwAAOSw4CFY3TNp - though the seller got it wrong, the wood is an Ebony veneer not Rosewood). Take a look at those monster caps!

It turns out that my system was so poorly matched. Sure, it was loud - make that LOUD.

Now I have a nice, well matched system. No turntable (pops, clicks, rumble, etc). Just a nice CD player (Marantz CC65SE) with a good digital receiver (Sony STR DA 4300 ES) and some nice front speakers (Polk RTi 10) and Energy center and surrounds.

What does a good component do in a good system? I thought my last system was pretty good, but my current system is soooo much better. I never understood the term sound stage, until I hooked up my new system. I hear how good a drummer Ringo is. George's guitar does weep and the vocals from John and Paul are exceptional! Simon and Garfunkel - they're incredible! I listen to some good classical recordings and the music jumps from the speakers. I can pick out the instruments and I can hear where the sound is coming from.

I don't think I need to buy some super high end esoteric stereo system. Maybe it does sound incredible?? I don't know. What I do know is that I'm very happy with the system I have - and it didn't cost me a fortune!

Regarding car stereo systems, I have to say that the Dynaudio system in the mid 2000's Volvo's was the best I've ever heard. The mid-bass is the best I've ever heard. If you get a chance to listen to a good recording on that system (of course at high power), you owe it to yourself to do so. Infinity, Bose, B&W, Levinson, JBL, Sony, B&O, Meridian, etc - they just don't sound as good as the Volvo Dynaudio system.

Back to the OP. I don't know if I can hear the difference between a good LP and a CD. I don't think there are many records/players that don't have pops, clicks, rumble, etc. I haven't hear a CD do any of those things. The openness of an LP vs CD? I've never listened to top systems side by side, but I do think it would be an interesting test. In the meantime, I'm going to side with a well matched system playing CD's.

As for me it boils down to just Perceptions...maybe different from another but still is a perception, and each one of us has one..

Well done.. as posted before, I find that the best sounding music is the the music that was recorded and produced properly. Miking, staging, sound studio setups (I built a few) etc. Take a great singer or instrumentalist, and, I can make them sound like angels or garbage trucks.. Then you put them into what ever system you want, with whatever high end transport system ,cables, turntables, digital systems, DVD, CD, etc, and it reproduces whatever was RECORDED . I think everyone is talking about RE-PRODUCTION. Sorry for the yelling..I do think there are two or more issues at play here. Like a computer, Garbage in, garbage out, but in higher Fidelity..

I find that the best sounding music is the the music that was recorded and produced properly. Miking, staging, sound studio setups (I built a few) etc.

Little known or recognized fact: Some early R&B recording studios sent the recording down to a basement like structure where it was amplified and corrected and then thru speakers which was recorded thru separate microphones then the master was cut. This gave a more spacious sound.

Interesting factoid. It makes sense, too!

Have you noticed that it's very hard to tell the quality of a recording on low quality devices (am/fm radio, cheap stereos, etc)? A junky car stereo (my am/fm radio in my GMC Sierra is a good example) makes everything sound flat and lifeless. Someone like Bob Seger (sorry to the fans) sounds acceptable on my Sierra stereo, but when I play a disc on my home stereo, I can hear the lack of quality.

Since most people listen to music on lower quality devices, having a recording properly done isn't that important.

FYI, when you have a chance, listen the Imagine Dragons Night Visions. On a bad radio it sounds okay. On a good stereo it sounds horrible. Someone said that they engineered the distortion in the bass on purpose - why??? To me, it's a great cd that has been destroyed by distortion.

I could not agree more wholeheartedly. Good job!

Who cares how it sounds? The market for old vinyl is coming back and now I can sell my collection that's been gather dust (on the boxes only) for years now!

I'm just going to weep a little and spare everyone the bitter tale of my vinyl disappearing..

The experience pretty much destroyed my lust for music and the joy of format competition..

My records collection was as flawless as it was vast. Well over 10k and years of obsessed collecting.

...bitch

Thanks for the nostalgia

She did that? Did you have her arrested for destruction of property? Irrespective of the outcome, she should have been horse whipped, and staked to a pole for days if not weeks. Fed with gruel, and only given water twice per day.

The witch dunking could take place after that. For a woman with a cruel and unusual mind (a doubtful comment in some respects), cruel and unusual punishments should be the order of the day.

I'm ready for you to have all of your brilliant ideas enacted into law!

At least consider a position as confidential advisor to the police superintendent.

Nah. I would get the entire force thrown out, and kicking cans down the road by sunset. That chief is better off without me.

Next thing you know you'll try to make cost effective improvement. !?

Yeah.. can't handle that

Is 'High Fidelity' pretty much equivalent to 'Low Promiscuity'?

...because if I'm going to spend a lot on a sound system, it would be more entertaining to ask for LoPro than HiFi.

Sounds like the bitter loser of an open marriage talking. No worries though, mate, I would be disillusioned of the entire institution also under those circumstances.

Infidelity - it puts a bad taste in the other person's mouth.

It turns sweet wine into the grapes of wrath.

It turns good music together into the screaking and scrrawing of an badly tuned fiddle with a donkey drawing the bow across the strings.

It changes love into bitter hatred, and turns acceptance, cooperation, and devotion, into white hot rage capable of cold-blooded (actually hot-blooded) murder.

That is just a few of the reasons why God hates infidelity.

That is certainly a lot of negativity. Bitterness, bad taste, rage, hatred, screaming, squaking, scrrawing, wrath, worries, losing, disillusion, God, and murder.

That's not coming from over here. If you are smelling that it is closer to your location.

An open relationship is not something i'd be in. I would not want to restrict the freedoms of others merely because it is not desireable to me. I wouldn't try to use governement, nor social stigma, nor religion to force others to behave in their relationships the way I think is best for any relationship of mine.

Maybe it is that god that is hating things you mention that is bringing all the negativity.

I figured you would not actually understand my rant.

No worries. No, I could care less what people do in their private residences.

I am concerned about someone near to me that is in an "open, swinging" relationship.

That entire concept is totally foreign to me, and very uncomfortable to even mention.

No limit has ever been set on the depths of one relationship between one man and one woman, that the number of years together is never enough to completely explore the depths of the other's mind, to totally know the other person with 100% intimacy, openness, honesty, and forgiveness is a worthy ambition.

On the other hand, the road to hell, is unfortunately paved with good intentions.

Sure. Just as you assume I don't understand the profound depths of your masterpiece rant, you probably refuse to acknowledge the validity of any portion of my response. If you hold me in such low regard and believe me to be such a dullard, why engage? Do you also argue with the neighborhood dogs and then insist that you knew all along that they wouldn't understand you?

As far as y9ur need to control those who dare flaunt their choices in your presence. As long as they are not on your private land, let the neighbors be in an open swinging relationship. Let them do their thing, let them make their mistakes, let them try to enjoy what the think they will enjoy. What business is it of yours, or the governments that they are openly honest about their consentual nonviolent relationship choices, no matter how bad those choice might appear?

Truly, it is none of my personal business what my neighbor does within the confines of their home, behind walls, closed doors, all that rot.

What I object to is the wild carrying on out in the front lawn, at all hours (if indeed I actually had neighbors like that), without inviting me (LOL).

How dare they?

Also, if bad things are happening next door, do not be surprised if some lead punches through your walls too when the sh** hits the fan.

Pretty interesting. My record collection consists of vinyls going back 50 years. I want to try and get that sound back without going to high end equipment. I think equipment that was around 50 years ago; Marantz, Harman Kardon, Sony, Carver, MacIntosh is still very adequate to reproduce good sound. My Teac reel-to-reel is still in good operating condition. I used to us it to record my music from the FM. It was the performances that were good. A few snap, crackle and pops on a vinyl really doesn't detract from the performance. I had a Stromberg Carlson all tube receiver that put out 20 watts per and sounded great to me. I had a hum problem with it, but I fixed that by adding a DC filament supply.

The way i did it was to record a virgin album on my Sony reel to reel at 7.5 "/sec.

Then put the album back into storage.

Early modified AR TT with a Black moving coil. It had a constant sweeper that helped remove the fine particles when playing. Always use a dust cover and clean the album prior to recording.

I have several thousand LP's. Some of the things I like is that many of them have very large fold out posters, many of the sleeves have information about the band's and detailed descriptions of future and past audio recordings. Quite a few of the album's have multi - page & multicolored booklets and pamphlets. Then there are the ones that have put it together artwork and mobiles. Large sized books etc are easier to see and see the details. A number of those album's covers are akin to fine art lithography. I made analog to digital recordings using a Technics turntable and a Harmon / Kardon CD R 2.

The original Led Zeppelin In Through the Outdoors album came in a paper sack type cover. Inside the sack was the album cover. The cool thing was that it was a watercolor. You could touch the album cover with a wet cloth and it would become a colored cover. I heard that there were multiple versions too.

I heard that they re-released it years after and the new version didn't have the water color.

Music was much better back in the forties when records were all we had.

Or was it just my ears that were better?

I was now wondering; if someone today wanted to build an all tube(valve) amplifier/preamp, would the components still be available? I know tubes are available from Russia, but looking through electronic parts catalogs (Allied, Mouser), I failed to see some components that were used 50 years ago.

Well if you find The tubes, I've got the testing equipment for you.

I have no idea why I haven't thrown them away.

The tubes are available, but they're expensive. They're used in guitar amps - Marshall tube amps are hot again! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-Set-for-Marshall-JVM410H-Tube-Brand-Tube-Amp-Doctor/112027891891?_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226&_trkparms=aid%3D555014%26algo%3DPL.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D45397%26meid%3D0ba726a370774ef9b5f805e5b56f8cd9%26pid%3D100505%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26

It would be interesting to hear from Anonymous Hero on this; I think he has built some from-the-ground-up tube equipment, to which I would love to listen.

(Over the years, I have listened to cylindrical wax recordings, Victrola Bakelite discs through the same horn as the RCA dog, monaural hi-fi, and onward through CDs. For the large part, the digital stuff is better, because it eliminates most surface noise. But not always! The Telarc recording of Saint-Saens' "Organ" symphony totally choked at the end, and I never bought another thing from Telarc.)

I have to agree with you, I cannot hear any difference.....

I used to copy CDs/LPs, for car usage onto cassettes about 25 odd years ago.

I had a quality sound system from Teac at home.

I had dozens of people here at different times, and none of them could consistently tell the difference between the original and the Dolby Tapes I made......

Some of them were (according to them at least!) Gurus of HiFi!!

I just laughed!!

My own ears probably got damaged, sitting in RN twin 4.5" Turrets, banging them off at 2 a second.....

I am lucky that I can hear at all at 70!!!

You can see from the comments that most people find the CD clearer and more crisp than the original sound. This is because CD is only 60% fidelity and 40% of the sound is missing. Digitisation clears up distortion and harmonics, so music sounds much clearer on CD and many adverts appeared stating that the CD sounds better than the original. Of course the only difference between a Stradivarius violin and a plastic violin is the harmonics and distortion produced by the resonant case of the instrument but I would not say that the plastic sound of the CD violin was better than the original Stradivarius. Today they have digital mixers, so even live bands can't get a good sound, so nobody knows the difference between live sound and digital sound any more. Bring back the vinyl, it is definitely not as clear as the digital stuff.

In the days of my youth, louder was the gold standard. Bang Olufson was for those who could stand the volume. LoL

Sounds like an ad for Marantz, "The most expensive name in stereo" from the '70s.

Radio Shack usually crushed Marantz during performance tests.

"The most expensive name in stereo" from the '70s.

I believe that would be Mcintosh.

Not according to the ads.

Be Realistic

Nice pun.