Free energy

So the energy of combustion of H₂ and O₂ comes from the source used to operate the electrolysis? Fine. What is it - sunlight? Wind? Waves? If so, then this is an example of the sort of thing advocated by the Hydrogen Economy brigade. Nothing wrong with that. The hydrogen is the energy storage and carrying medium that is used to connect the source with the end user.

Go for it.

What is it - sunlight? Wind? Waves?

Thank you for the reply. My question was more aimed at what happens after the event of having the power source. Sunlight wind and waves are only a few of the ways to generate H2. If I would go any further with details of how to start the system I would be giving away more than I would like to, at the moment.

An earlier discussion, very much related to this matter, had rekindled my interest on the subject. As it sometimes happens threads dry up.

My interest is more in the energy formula and its validation or rejection. If the numbers work it could become worth while proceeding with appropriate measures and some further testing. In no way would I call myself a numbers or formula cruncher but rather a hands on potential H2 producer.

This is a longtime basic idea and nothing more. I am more curious than interested in commercial gain or publication. Just small steps at a time. Hobby would be a good word. Although, having the hardware, does tickle a bit.

I have Googled the obvious but have not found a source relating to what I am proposing. Hope to find more information from others. Thanks Ky.

<If I would go any further with details of how to start the system I would be giving away more than I would like to, at the moment.>

A word of caution. Scarcely a week goes by without some CR4 poster making claims that (s)he has found an energy-making process that fails to obey the well-established http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Thermodynamics, hell-bent on the idea that it will solve the globe's energy problems, make the inventor stinking rich in the process, and wondering what on Earth to do to make it actually work the way that the inventor would like. Most of these receive a lot of attention from commentators, ranging from assertive skepticism to aggressive ridicule bordering upon personal abuse. Here is a list of those so far: http://cr4.globalspec.com/search/sitesearch?do=show&order=asc&sort=textmatchrank&srch=free%20energy, which might make interesting reading (or not, as the case may be).

Regardless of that, it would be most unwise for an inventor to post the concept of a working, patentable device or technique in a public discussion forum like CR4......

Regardless of that, it would be most unwise for an inventor to post the concept of a working, patentable device or technique in a public discussion forum like CR4......

Thank you for the hint. I have over the years lost all my trust in the patent process and like I mentioned before I am not after financial gain or publication. I want this nagging thing out of my system and would love to be shot down, so I can rest in peace. It seems I have found the right forum and it is looking good. I mean I might have another go at it. Thanks for the web sites. Ky.

<I am not after financial gain or publication>

....though in the context of a public discussion forum like CR4 there may be others that are, and who will not reveal their intentions! They will pester the original poster endlessly, picking away and extracting whatever they can from the topic in the belief that they can achieve what the poster hasn't, and hell-bent on them becoming stinking rich in the process. Now that isn't fair on the original poster, losing out on that, is it?

It might be better for free energy postings to be reported to CR4 Admin at an early stage to mitigate the risk of taking up too much server space and users' time to the detriment of more worthwhile posts. Hmmmmmmm....... Time for a private message to all Gurus, perhaps? Bomb all free energy postings? Rally the troops?

New feature announcement: The Free Energy tick box radio button.

But after all, from time to time we are entitled to a good laugh and guest what makes the laughter start?

<But after all, from time to time we are entitled to a good laugh and guest what makes the laughter start?>

True!

Hey!

I wonder if 'KY' and 'azeeco' are in fact the same individual? <Splutter>

No-one would ever know....<wheeze>.

Well it seems a tiger can't hide his stripes. Gosh your a funny man. How in zee vorld did you pick axxent. Ju just can't kiep zecrets. Now must find more betterer name to get 2 u vell studied peeples. I kann smell zee rat now. Dinner redy. Still love CR4. Ky.

<Bomb all free energy postings?>

No, that wouldn't be a good idea.

That is not what I would do, there is in fact free energy.

It is all around us and nobody sees it.

It is called wind, available everywhere on this planet, you just have to harvest it.

Another form is called sea currents and wave, just install systems to harvest it and the energy is totally free.

there is one more ,sun`s solar energy , these renewable energy is known from ages and were usedby ancient world , but we are still away from capturing and utilising it on day to day basis , it is not free consider initial costing for installations and there density of energy output levels compared to other sources

If we would have invested as much money in solar/wind/tidal as we have invested in nuclear/thermal combustion there would be no issue now.

Strangely we have no issue with fumes from coal fired electricity production but a windmill on the horizon makes us go up till high court to prevent it.

There is also the idea that everything needs to be big: nuceal power stations producing gigawats, need to be replace by some windmills, so we need big windmills. The same can be done with thousands of small windmills, along the coast/highway's, vertical axis types 30m high, each 10-20m. this would produce where the consumers are, reducing the need for high capacity long distance energy transport.

But all this money has been spend, leaving nothing for the "green" options.

You are right , if we could have invested in building infrastructure for renewable source right from start it would have been different scenerio today , all these oil companies , government bodies , mean money in the form of commissions , taxes , it is not all the money has been spent by them , they have enough money to replace non renewable technology , they are aware of depliting sources

Bomb all the free energy posts. That is really brilliant, Just because you are so smart as to know something can't be done, doesn't mean everybody is that smart. Remember there was a time when everybody knew airplanes couldn't fly. Light bulbs couldn't be frosted on the inside, and I'll bet I can come up with a dozen or so other things that not to long ago just couldn't work, BECAUSE every body knew they wouldnt work. Some day, and soon I hope, someone will make a free energy device that does work, and make you eat your words and attitude. Till then KEEP TRYING.

"I have over the years lost all my trust in the patent process and like I mentioned before I am not after financial gain or publication"

Hi ky

you should understand patent offices do not accept such theories that violet laws of thermodynamics and under the topic of free energy in most of the nations , it is you who can conduct a working apparettus and than design extraction of energy if possible??? it may atleast lay benchmark for any possible breakthroughs to related fields ,no body denies possiblities (or applicablity infact) therefore such topics gets so attentions , and were are you going to rest in peace and who`s going to shoot you for nothing

Sorry I could not get back to you sooner vicas.

You said: and were are you going to rest in peace and who`s going to shoot you for nothing.

Well, If it helps and you can overcome my tri-linguisticly challenged ways.... it was not meant in the way you would like to interpret rest in peace and shot down.

Peace is the thing one can have in ones mind and shooting something or someone down does not require a weapon of what ever kind. All the best. Ky.

To put it simple.

Boy if that was simple then I'm the monkey's uncle.

Are you somehow talking about driving cars with water?

Anyway, though I cannot put in anything for you since this is way beyond my scope of education however, I wish to compliment you from the core of my heart on your achievement and pray you succeed in your endeavour.

HELLO

I was on the site and I see that someone is trying to do an experiment I did back in college during the early 1980's. The end result is; it will work, however the problem I found was maximum input vs minamil output.

I constructed a V8 engine completely of pvc, I found the heat output was far greater than the pvc could withstand, so I used a conventional straight six cylinder motor found in automobiles and by using a fuel injection system to get the h2 o2 to the cylinders I found I was loosing to much heat energy in the process.Although the engine did turn the rpm was far less than the energized input. Using alternative metals to construct a lighter weight engine was a possibility but I never followed up. I have since lost all of my notes on the experiment and never persued it any further.

I do remember my final thought was to use a Uranium rod as the main heat source and somehow design it as a high pressure contained unit possabily a box atop the engine so that energized h2 o2 had minimul travel or perhaps design the rod to fit inside the cylinder as an injector where energy loss was zero.

The conclusion is; it will work you just have to keep plugging away at it.

Uranium rod as the main heat source

You could have tried a laser beam and lost even more energy while tinkering away. Same as you I disregarded my thoughts on this for a long time but was lucky (unlucky) enough to still have them. That includes the "cell" and some other bench top utensils. I know you are making fun of me but as long as it keeps you happy I'll dig it. Have some more. Thanks. Ky.

Are you somehow talking about driving cars with water?

Yes. Maybe it will be after all the monkeys are no more. Urang Uthans. Palm oil. Say no more. I know I have to hurry in some way, shape or form. I am much to lax about this. Thanks for the prayer. Ky.

I'm not trying to say yay or nay...but I think I see a point where you are counting your chickens twice (if you'll forgive the metaphor)

The burning Hydrogen and oxygen would normally in a test tube create a nice loud pop... (presumably hot expanding air)... this is the energy released from the burn..you can't then also use it to turn water to steam... It can do one or the other or a bit of each but the energy from that burn isn't going to miraculously double because of the water.

I'm perfectly willing to be wrong on this...but my assertion seems pretty sound to me.

Comments please guys (and any spare chicken scraps...)

Del

The burning Hydrogen and oxygen would normally in a test tube create a nice loud pop...

Hi Dell.

It sounds more like a high pitched bang than a loud pop. Our cat ENO only had to see me walking toward the workshop and he was of with a hiss.

..you can't then also use it to turn water to steam.

If in an enclosed system I can't see why not. Please note that the piston pressure inside the cylinder (diesel) would add to the heating of the water droplets. Like you said or a bit of both which is now threes. By the way ENO was taken by a python and he was a 5 1/5 kg bull terrier of a cat. It was a sad day. Have a nice day. Ky.

Del wrote: ..you can't then also use it to turn water to steam.

ky replied: If in an enclosed system I can't see why not.

svengali adds: the reason that you can't harvest the full O2/H2 combustion energy via both processes simultaneously (i.e., the full delta G from gas expansion and the full delta G again from the gas temperature) is that *gases cool as they expand*. Pressure and temperature are not independent, they are proportional (see Gay-Lussac's Law). As the initial high-temperature high-pressure gas (formed immediately after the H2/O2 reaction) expands, the temperature (and therefore the pressure also) will drop faster than expected if gas law behavior is not taken into account.

Hi svengali

"will drop faster than expected if gas law behavior is not taken into account".

That is part of what I am including in my thoughts. If I take those into account and consider the formula as correct then I truly think I could be on to something worth while following up even further.

The faster the better, the gasses I mean. Which ever way. Have a good one. Ky.

"To put it simple, I am using the heat of the H2/O2 explosion to instantly turn a preheated source of water droplets H2O (from radiator for example) into high pressure steam in a fraction of a second, or better, in a so far not researched time frame."

How do you get the preheated water droplets into the cylinder against ever increasing pressure.

Have you researched the heat balance? 2LTD? No Gain.

How do you get the preheated water droplets into the cylinder against ever increasing pressure.

I was thinking of using the H2O as a fuel substitute, meaning that I inject it in a very similar way to petrol or diesel. If I would use it in a steam engine it would be introduced during the down stroke. I hope that is the proper terminology. If you could give me some more details on ever increasing pressure I would better understand what you are getting at. As for my understanding there is always a phase to inject, whatever I want, into a so far not clearly described engine. Be it 4stroke, Diesel or steam. At this stage it is not so important. Thanks. Ky.

What is the source of the DC power you are using to electrolyze the water? The amount of energy you get from burning the hydrogen will definitely be less than what you put in for electrolysis. However, if you already need to electrolyze the water for whatever reason, and you decide to burn the hydrogen to preheat the water to aid in the electrolysis, then sure, it's a good idea, but if the intention is to extract hydrogen for fuel, don't bother. It's not economically viable.

Hi DVader 1000

If I could only describe what I am proposing better than I have done with the formula, I would. The generating of H2 and O2 takes up a lot of energy. I know. Having water droplets heated to (Depending on the governing system) 2000 deg C in Milli seconds (for free) is the point I am making. To develop such a governing system, to run a generator, is the next step of the exercise. If I ever get there. First things first. Thanks Ky.

"If I could only describe what I am proposing better than I have done with the formula, I would. "

If you can't provide a succinct description of your proposal then you don't understand it.

If you don't understand it, how do you expect anyone else to?

Look at what you propose.

You add energy to get the H & O.

You add more energy to atomize the water.

You expect to get more back?

You equations:

You appear to be calculating the energy added to the measured amount of water, and then adding the energy in the combustion water at final temp.to that total.

You're taking part of the energy twice.

You add more energy to atomize the water.

You are wrong on this one. Atomising water is (the way I generate it)a mechanical process and is not completely for free but is hardly a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Thank you for making the point though. I will have to consider that in some way. Just for the stats not for the overall function. Thanks. Ky.

If the H₂ and O₂ are by products of another reaction your system will alway's be a form of free energy.

The adding of water droplets to an IC system is a known technique to reduce the heat of combustion very quicly, this to avoid the formation of NO_x. Typically NOx forms in the cool down traject as the combustion chamber expands, the faster you can get your gasses below a certain critical point the less NOx you will find in your combustion gasses.

The heat needed to evaporate the water is taken from the combustion, so you will not add extra energy.

But why don't you try to burn the H₂ and O₂ in a Stirling generator, the high heat level (+3000°C) of the burning reaction of these gasses will enable very high efficiencies, and as the burning result is H₂O the gasses don't need an exhaust system, the water can be sold/reused as demin water.

A potential problem I see is that any device you build to utilize this is going to have to run at many cycles per minute to make any appreciable, usable power. That being said, the time that your water droplets will have to flash heat will be very small, so to ensure they flash to steam completely, they are going to have to be very very small, almost to a gas state, meaning that the amount of expansion when heated you'll get out of them will be reduced. I see this as a system of diminishing returns when it comes to anything practical, but it might make for an interesting bench top demonstration where maximum output is not a concern, so I certainly wouldnt want to discourage you from trying.

To provide for W₁ I propose that solar energy is the call. The fact that solar energy is available only when the sun shines makes the disassociation of water (or any other hydrogen bearing material) the best means of storing the solar energy for future use. The efficiency of any piston driven reaction is in the 25% range, improving to about 35% with turbines, and to about 50% to 60% with fuel cells. All the rest, from 40% to 75% of the energy lost through heat, which, if captured, and improve efficiency of the system. Energy is conserved, not lost; it is simply misapplied.

Hey I got it, put a great stonking big propeller on the top of your car and charge a equally great stonking battery with that.

Now here is the trick, you connect this battery to your electromotor and then........

I hope you guys are clever as only the realy good ones will see where this is going!

Sorry already got a patent on it, called stupidity.

I hope you guys are clever as only the really good ones will see where this is going!

In the land of the blind the one eyed is king. I would be more interested in being shot down than to be insulted by such irrelevant comments. Please read my proposal with more care and advise me of were I am going with this. I don't know were but I am on my way to find out. Go and do something nice to your body and I will set up workshop in the mean time. There is an airport not far away from here so getting hold of a propeller is easy. It will cool me down if I get to hot under the collar. It will be driven by normal electricity which comes out of a socket in the wall. Not kidding. Ky.

One thing I MUST and WILL give you credit for is the fact you do read all the replies in detail and you take the time to reflect on them and answer. This is no mean feat considering you did open pandoras box in here.

I honestly salute you for engineering does need people like you who will perservere and continue. You may however not find what you think you are going to find but then, most real important inventions were mostly found out like that, by looking for something else that is.

Good on you and if you feel insulted, sorry for that, late at night, couple of beers and lots of forums to read and reply to. I should leave them till the morning I know.

p.s. I am not blind and have both eyes working, I am deaf in one ear though, does that count?

I, too, am not blind but sight is slowly degrading and am not deaf but hearing is slowly degrading. My teeth and hair are falling out. My primary problem, though, is that none of the three brain transplants have succeeded and I must proceed through life as I was born, brainless. Oh well, no one is perfect save, perhaps, one of two millennium ago.

"Free Energy" topics always gets due attaintion because of curiosity it carries even though every body among us know the facts, suddenly loads of comments are added every minute that too are all the same, that doen`t mean greed ,this is obivious inventions were made .ohh my fingers are banging now , i too am not blind but may approach blindness and ears ringing

I can see. I can see, its all serendipity. I think I should come in for landing now. The wheels have fallen off and the air space is too crowded to have any fun. In other words "If in a deep hole, stop digging". Thanks to all for even considering to reply to my proposal. There are so many links to evaluate that it will take some time to sort things out. I promise not to mention the "war" in future. Although....

CR4, go you good thing. Ky.

Hey guys, he mentioned it first, that must mean we can now as well. I think we are allright, even though he is german, he seems to have a sense of humour.

Which is strange but who are we to judge. (p.s. I am dutch so I have no room to talk)

KY, keep on posting man, we need you. I realy hope you will find something, even though it may be discovered by others to be of real use some time later.

If you would know Modern Germany you would also know that they handle their war history in a much more mature way than many allied now.

Kv " sticks and stone may break my bone but words don't hurt me" - Charlie Brown.

Keep up.

"I will be very busy over the next few days so please bare with me if I can't respond to posts in real time."

You have quiet made CR4 readers busy as though , any way electrolysis is very inefficient way to do processing , and oxygen , hydrogen are by products not actual targeted , how much energy is (wasted) utilised in doing so , you should know that free energy(perpetuality) can be achieved through unity,hyper efficiency , frictionless , ideal conditions that are difficult on this planet

"I will be very busy over the next few days so please bare with me if I can't respond to posts in real time."

Sorry mate. I have overseas visitors from way back when Germany was home. They started me up on this by asking how it all went with my (back then) invention. They are more interested seeing the Great Barrier Reef at the moment but are also viewing the comments regarding this matter once back home (with sun burn). If time could only slow down for a while. Got to go. Thanks. Ky.

for storing energy, one has the choice of batteries, I prefer the hydrogen/oxygen battery for storing solar energy, but you can use your choice. I hear that the Lithium Ion battery is rather good if the overheating problems are solved.

If it's a question of personal choice then I'd go for super-high-speed flywheels! <splutter>.

The expanding H2/O2 gas + the expanding steam drive the piston.

I though you were burning the H2/O2 mixture. If so , then you would not have expanding H2/O2 gas; you'd have steam. The additional water you spray in would evaporate, cooling the cylinder contents. Water injection is used in engines to reduce peak burn temperatures, reducing detonation.

Is not the heating of the water droplets and the resulting steam for free?

No. Creating the steam extracts energy from the burning H2/O2, just as creating steam from any fuel source does. Boiling a gram of H2O requires 2240 joules. Heating liquid water requires about 4 joules per degree per gram.

Is not the heating of the water droplets and the resulting steam for free?

Look. Pop into Waterstones over there and get yerself a set of Steam Tables. <splutter>.

If you can't run to them then try these: http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_steam.htm <cough>.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Believe me. Well, not in Basildon, anyway <cough>.

What is all this faken bs about?- Stinky, congrats on your move- hope your health improves- free lunches abound- just have to appeal to the haves & make em donate to the havenot- ie you & me- really, why worry about impossible dreams by dreamers such as ky?- what works in this world is well known & sewn up by vested interests- the average person is a cash cow to vested interests- but I make this point- YOU CAN'T take it with you- so why not just enjoy your 3 score & 10(if you are lucky)- & if you are really intelligent, try to reason out WHY?- if like me can't see any answer, use whatever makes sense to your existence- ooh, glugity glug-BURP, zzzz.

Can I have some of what you just took please?

I would just like to find out why all the anger

Keep it friendly and we all smile and learn, I for one enjoy stinky petes comments even if they do not always contribute directly to the problem presented.

Rather have stinky pete post than other ask first page google findings myself

Hey Case- ain't got anger to anyone- admire Stinky- all I use are moderate amounts of HB- but my frustration arises when so-called intelligent people can't find a new source of free energy, but argue over technology known in the late 1800,s- WIDELY PROVEN to be > input= < output.

Well, what about almost free? Makes more sense to me. I'll go with Chtank for sincere, and Del the Cat for jokes and sincere attempts at the thought.

Say we put fans in the yard and a hole in the ground and build batteries out of burnt wood and melt sand into solar panels and put all that into fuel cells made of the stuff you make fuel cells out of, but bigger. Hydride?

Without the solar panel, how about a mirror that is parabolic and then focused turns the water in the glass bowl into steam over a turbine that turns the generator?

That's a sunny day, so otherwise when that is not the case how deep before you get hot weather?

The fans are reverse wired so when the wind blows they charge the batteries, and the batteries are made of dirt, or saltwater and ashes from the fireplace.

Aluminum cans are free, well maybe.

Actually what we need is a good system that puts all the yard to work and elimantes the love of the chemical lawn for games we don't play anymore.

I wish I could spell better. I'm off to study fuel cells.

Hello there

If I have ever had a reply to a question, missing the theme and still being of importance, yours is the one. In your reply is something I can't put my finger on. A bit like a 'serendipitous?' kind of a thing, if you know what I mean. Either you have not understood my first question or you have been taken by a ride by the sometimes not so relevant posts by other members of this forum.

It seems that you are not being very specific about some things and on the other hand you are right to the point. I interpret your comment as something you could have applied to any number of posts and in many fields of science.

To get things started, one has to begin. Sometimes even nothing becomes more important than what it surrounds. Reading your bio made me decide to add some personal words to the space CR4 has provided me with.

Actually what we need is a good system that puts all the yard to work and elimantes the love of the chemical lawn for games we don't play anymore.

Good idea for places like the environments that we live in. NC, FNQ and all the others for ever. Have a nice day my friend. Ky.