Who Should Get the Vaccine First?

Thanks Solar! Makes a lot of sense!

I agree. You get the most bang for the buck by starting with those most likely to contract and spread the disease.

Thoughtfully picking at good answers;

"Those most likely to contract and spread the disease."

These may not be a cohesive group. Should we vaccinate a careless, asymptomatic, idiot who seems determined to spread the virus? Does the answer change if the person is careless, determined, and likely to die from the virus?

Someone mentioned lack of personal responsibility for one's own health. (The smoker who lines up multiple lung transplants (but continues to smoke) or the alcoholic who goes through multiple livers) Do we vaccinate those that don't feel this responsibility? To protect them? or us?

The reason I started this post is that I wanted to hear what others here have to say. Whether I agree or not, I appreciate everyone's contribution. I know things will go off topic, but that's understood and I'm okay with it, because it helps to understand where a person is coming from.

Your posts give me much though also and I appreciate you spending time to state your views.

The question of who should get the vaccine first is a hot, but necessary topic in our difficult 2020 - though there may be a light at the end of the tunnel!

I agree with treating the most vulnerable first.

if your looking for validation that the vaccine is safe, giving it to the politicians first would not accomplish that.

Would you believe them if they said they took it?

Would there be 100% participation or would some be on the fence about taking it like the general public?

A lot of them have made it very difficult to believe anything that comes out of there mouth these days. And if you do believe it, it’s like what are they thinking.

OH, don't get me started!

If you have an hour, take a look at the first Cares Act and see the 100+ pages of favors that were cashed in.

I haven't seen this new relief package, but what I did hear is an interview with someone who read (5000 pages or so) and the $900B of aid isn't really only $900B. It's $2.5T. The other $1.6T went for more favors. I can't confirm it, because I haven't seen it, but the interviewee did make this claim and I've heard it quite a few times since. Though the media keeps saying it's a $900B stimulus bill.

Maybe our POTUS wants to go out with a clean conscience and he'd rather give $2K to each person and cut out the $1.6T of graft. And $2K for every single person in this country is around $650B. Maybe we can save $1T of our future debt by doing this.

I think that the makers of the vaccine (C suite and upper management), our congressmen and people in the White House should be first.

We're being told that the vaccine is safe. Is it safe? I'm not in the business of making vaccines, so I have no clue if it is or isn't.

If the people who helped make the vaccine are given the first shots, then it'll let people know it's safe. Since they're the ones who know the most about it, they also know what the potential problems (if any) are.

Add to this list our congressmen. They're our leaders and they need to be meeting in chamber to solve the problems of our country. Zoom videos are okay, but they don't have the same effect as meeting in person. Covid relief is a huge issue that needs top attention and a congress full of it's members, meeting and going toe to toe! That's what we need. And it'll also give the public reason to feel safe about the vaccine.

Finally, everyone in the White House needs to take it. We can't risk being without important people in our government. Cabinet members were chosen to give sound advice and they're needed the most in these trying times. Staff personnel are also needed to help keep the POTUS in top form.

After these groups are vaccinated, next is the medical staff who works directly with Covid patients.

And next are the elderly, who need the protection so they don't get sick.

The last are the group who won't be able to fight it off if they get it.

From here, we can give the vaccine to regular people. Front line workers are at the top of the list, but also people who provide an essential service/product.

This is my thinking. I'd love to hear what you have to say.

I heard the news media want to be included in with those essential personnel.

100% correct!

And I include the congressmen, because they seem to know a lot more about things like this (is it safe or will it have long term effects). A friend told me that some congressmen will take it, because they're old and they'd rather reduce the risk of them dying now from Covid. So his idea was to have his entire family (kids, grandkids, great grandkids, etc) take it. You'd have to be one sick !@#@$ to poison your family!

you may started a new line of thought here...

I’m curious,...

1. should the people that already have the antibodies, (those that already had COVID-19), would they need to take the vaccine?
2. does COVID-19 mutate (I’m sure it does) like the regular influenza, where you’ll now needed to be vaccinated yearly on the new strains, along with the flu shots that’ll be available?

it’ll also be interesting, (unfortunately, you know for the drama queens) the type of side effects from these flu shots. I understand that there are already some side effects, must have been from the trials where a few people got Bell’s palsy possible from the vaccine.

Great questions! Some of the same things that I was thinking about. So, after some research, I found that:

1. They (vaccine makers) say yes. Our bodies don't keep antibodies for Covid 19 for a long time. This is what the vaccine makers say. I haven't heard much else.

2. Very good question. Moderna is stating that their vaccine will protect against the mutations, since it works on blocking the RNA. Not much info from the others. Though they're saying you'll need a vaccine shot every year! The companies putting vaccines out now are making the claim that they're not making a profit and it's all being done for society. However, after the first year, now what?

As more of the vaccine is put into your body (after years of vaccines), we may see many more side effects. Also, I heard that the people who got Bell's Palsy wound up going back to normal soon after (short term effect), however nobody knows what and if there are long term effects.

This is one of the reasons why I think the scientists and management who made the vaccine should be the first to take it. If there's something bad that they're hiding, they won't take it.

I do hate to rain on others parade but...

Remember, the vaccine testing identified only if the vaccine was safe to take and if it prevented people from becoming ill from this pathogen. It did not test if it prevented people from becoming contagious carriers or how long the vaccination is effective. This disease has a stage where people are asymptomatic spreaders so not becoming ill does not necessarily mean not contagious. I believe these last two criteria are properly not required for the emergency authorization of these vaccines.

With this in mind, I believe the priority for vaccine distribution should be first to those who treat the ill for we have a critical shortage of these talented people (doctors, nurses, EMT, hospital workers, etc.). We want to prevent these people from becoming ill and unable to help those also ill. Next, the vaccine should go to those individuals with are likely to contract this disease. Inoculating those who have a better chance of contracting this scourge will hopefully most quickly reduce the rate of infection.

Identifying this second group requires a better, in depth analysis of the infected data than what the press have provided to the public. This second group might be public transportation workers, teachers, entertainers, civil servants. A critical subset of this second group are those popular figures willing to publicly become inoculated in order to promote inoculation.

The third group is the remaining population with the exception of the last group to be inoculated.

The last group for inoculation are those popular, public individuals unwilling to get a public vaccination. Nobody should be coerced into any medical procedure. Those public figures denying this disease or vaccines in general should show the courage of their convictions and not even seek medical attention when they contract a disease.

Good line of thinking! I'm going to take a stab at answering your question and maybe bringing up some more questions.

Here's what I know about this virus - and no, I am not an expert - this is only how I see it.

A person has a large enough amount of the virus enter their body. The virus goes into the cell and causes the "instruction set = DNA" to be modified. The virus is basically changing the cells from being factories for good cells to virus factories. The body notices this and sends help in the form of some sort of antibody to get rid of the virus and the bad cells. Some people have strong immune systems and the virus never gets to a high concentration - if you have a small enough population of virus cells, your body won't feel any effect. Your body is expelling the virus infected cells as it would normal dead cells or refuse. The virus infected cells can cause someone else to get sick if it's a high enough concentration - getting a large enough infection of the virus.

So, as much as I know, I do believe that a person who is asymptomatic can spread Covid - I've also heard this and read about it. If someone has the vaccine, they are starting with a "chemical" that keeps the virus from making cells into virus factories. The viral load will be low and the person may be contagious, though he won't be even close to the same level as if he were sick.

Here's something I do know. A normal drug or vaccine needs to go thru three phases before it's approved by the FDA. The first phase is to see if it's safe. Next phase is to see if it works, phase 2. Finally, the third phase is to see if it's better than anything else and what long term effects are. We need this vaccine, so we fast tracked it and skipped a lot of the testing. The scientists who created it and the managers who sat in on meeting and made choices on what to "skip" are the ones in the know. That's why I feel they're the first to be tested - to give us confidence that it's not going to do something terrible to us. And also test it on their families as well.

I like all you post, except your last sentence. There's no forgiveness - we're human and we make mistakes. Even if their intention was in the wrong place (political pandering or for profit), we shouldn't keep them from receiving medical help. How about giving them medical help, but only after the ones who did the right thing? Forgiveness - it's the perfect time of year to be thinking this way!

Thanks for the clarification.

And yes, I agree that admitting their error should happen. But we're dealing with some overbloated egos, so I'm not holding my breath.

I miswrote what I meant to say. I agree that it was only Phase III testing that wasn't completed per normal FDA standards. However that's the phase that we find out the long term effects.

It's balancing the opening of our economy and saving us from financial ruin vs rushing something out that MAY have an adverse effect. Or we open things back up and let the virus run it's course - though the number of dead will be staggering!

A good friend of ours (an RN) told me that the one she would take is the Moderna vaccine, because she likes the way mRNA helps the body block the virus taking over cells. When I asked her if she'd take it now, she said no, because the vaccine needs to go through long term testing to find out what it does to the body and mind.

Thanks for your insight. I appreciate it!

I just heard a clarifying report on the Phase III testing. This study is still proceeding with the test subjects as time goes by. What is news to me is the test subjects will be given a third and fourth injection and remain blind to what their initial injection pairs contained along with the new injections. Those who were given one of the candidate vaccines will now be given a placebo and those given a placebo will be given a candidate vaccine for the second pair of injections. The test volunteers continue to report their symptoms (if any) in their journals and by examinations. Thus phase III testing continues and the ethical concern of not treating half of the brave and noble volunteers with a vaccine has been met.

Correction: The third and fourth injection approach is a proposal that is likely to be followed but has yet to be approved. The efficacy and ethics of this testing methodology is still under debate.

To make the Phase III valid, I think a group still needs to be the untreated, placebo takers. To cross mix with a third and fourth injection is an interesting idea, however I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do, because the dosage is set at two treatments.

Remember the Tuskegee tests and the research of Dr. Mengele. Not treating a volunteer once a known effective treatment exists is cruel, malicious and probably criminal.

Are we sure we have an effective treatment that is safe?

Some here feel it is and at this point, I think it's a belief. Using historical drug/vaccine approval regimes from the FDA, we have not proven this to be safe. It may turn out to be safe, but they skipped a vital part of the testing. Though most of us will acknowledge that it's a risk worth taking, considering the alternative.

I don't think you can call this cruel, malicious or criminal at this point.

As an aside, what do you feel about the absence of a group of important people being vaccinated; particularly the scientists who created the vaccine, the management of the pharma, C-Suite, Congress, White House and most importantly, their kids and grandkids? I'm not asking this as a challenge, but as a curiosity to see what you think and why you believe it. Your comments are valued, even though we may not agree.

I appreciate your honest response.

I asked the questions to see how you thing about the vaccine and also how you feel about using the public vs making the creators take it first. If I'm correct, you feel it's pretty safe - safe enough to give it to the public.

I have a different belief. Back in 2006 ish, I was given a live virus, the Yellow Fever vaccine and Hep A/B. I went on a trip to the Amazon jungle and there was a risk I could get Yellow Fever - mosquito bite from an infected insect (one that had bit an infected monkey) and Hepatitus from unsanitary conditions or infected people. I'm a mosquito magnet, so my travel doctor felt it was a good idea and Hep A/B is recommended due to the region. She didn't tell me about any long term effects of the Yellow Fever vaccine, she just said it would be smart for me to take it, due to the chance of getting infected. And the usual stuff; call me if you have any adverse reactions. Slightly before and during my trip, I didn't feel right. Flu like symptoms, but no fever. I recall feeling like my head was in a bubble and I was irritable - I'm normally a pretty happy guy.

Since getting the vaccine, I've had numerous muscle tears, joint issues and a bad reaction to mold. My sister, who is a doctor, told me that it's very possible that the "weakened" Yellow Fever virus that I received has done permanent damage to my body. I have a pretty good read on my body and things haven't been the same since I received the Yellow Fever vaccine.

Due to my personal experience, I am cautious about vaccinations. I would feel much better if the people who made the vaccination and the management of the company, up to the C-Suite also took the vaccination. In fact, I'd feel completely worry free is they gave the vaccine to their kids and grandkids. I'm probably asking for too much, but that's what I'd like to see.

I understand your apprehension. As I said, management and C-Suite members should move to the front of the line only if they take the vaccine in public as a public relations demonstration on the safety of their product. They should not be allowed to take away from the limited supply presently available just because they can interrupt delivery.

OK. From that seminar I attended I learned that neither of the two FDA emergency approved vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) are attenuated COVID virus vaccines. Both of these bring only the mRNA that instructs cells to make the protein that makes only the spikes on the SARS COVIDII virus. Moderna does use a different virus to deliver the payload while Phizer uses nanoparticles. The Pfizer vaccine is not a virus at all. This is part of the reason why this needs to be deep chilled until use.

This use of mRNA is a new approach in vaccines. Functioning cells naturally fabricate, use and then dismantle mRNA molecules all the time.

Some of the promising but yet to be approved vaccines are an attenuated COVID virus.

As I also said, some people will have valid medical reasons for not taking these vaccines. You might be one. Those who cannot or do not take a COVID vaccine may be restricted in what they can do in the future.

Your reaction to an attenuated virus implies to me you would've had an even worse reaction (death?) if you contracted the unattenuated virus from where you visited.

Interesting how the two companies chose different routes. Nano particles - I did read something about them many years ago. I'll have to do some digging to see if I can find the article. If I remember correctly, there was a concern about using nano particles and the effects on the body.

Moderna (mRNA) is an interesting concept, but I'd like more long term studies on the side effects.

Thanks for the great info!

GA for bringing another side of the discussion to light. Ethics are very important and at times we forget or get to caught up in our "side" of the debate.

Thank you!

I’m not an economist, and by your response, neither are you. Your talking like someone who doesn’t understand the economy with sprinkles of parroting, and it also appears you looking at answers it with tunnel vision... with no idea how the economy (GDP), or the effect of non production and idleness works or more importantly how fragile the banking system is.

did you even look at the link I posted on the post your responding to...

And yet, you’ll then not only tax the ‘essential’ working people that are still working, but also increase the tax burden on them and what ever business that survived so others can be paid for staying at home.

I have one thing to say, and that is,.. keep thinking.

All of us in the middle class are going to get crushed with taxes. Your city is most likely in trouble. Your county - the same. Your state - even worse. Your country may not recover.

Here's how I see it. They increase taxes on us, the working people who don't have enough to take advantage of tax shelters - and if enough of us used the tax shelters, they'd change them, because we need to pay for this.

Sales tax is 10.25% where I live and they're trying to increase it.

Property tax is going up next year! One of my properties is being billed 4% of the cost basis.

Income tax - I haven't heard of any changes, but I think it's coming.

DMV fees are up huge. $350/yr is average for an average person's car (Camry or Accord).

And all the other taxes; gasoline, phone service, utilities, city services, penalties (parking tickets are $52), etc.

The exodus out of CA is staggering. I've lost a lot of clients and more are planning to leave. Residential real estate is high in some areas, while in others it barely reaching the highs of 2008.

My greatest concern is the change in rules we witnessed this year. In the past, the government wouldn't interfere with private business transactions. If a private rental agreement was struck, the only time the government would intervene is if one side complained. This year, the government stepped in and told tenants that they didn't have to pay rent, while also not reimbursing the landlord for the missed rent payments. Two of my tenants have chosen to follow the government's decree. One is trying to pay, but has paid only two months out of the last six. One couldn't pay and the family left (and left the home in very good condition) - I was able to rent it out in a week at full pop. The last two have been 100% perfect in payments!

My saving grace is that the mortgage payments are super low. Add property tax, insurance and repairs/maintenance to the mix and I'm still positive for the year. The my ROA/ROI is terrible.

I have two concerns:

1. My property values have increased about 25% this year - I know its unsustainable. They say it's the Millennials moving from downtown to the suburbs - eating up inventory and creating a shortage. The shift is just about done, so the normal buying and selling will level off and the price gains will go back to normal.

2. When the state lifts the eviction moratorium, the courts will be full of eviction cases. As they're settled and people are forced out, the seller can now sell - he has no squatter to pass to the next buyer. This will push inventory levels up and prices down.

I've had to reevaluate my retirement planning this year and I'm still not sure what I should do. I've spoken with a lot of my peers and the advice is mixed. My business partner sold nearly all his properties and only holds two condos, his rental house and the land he wants to build his retirement home. He's usually right on his investment moves and I'm very nervous seeing him cash out, while I'm sitting on a lot of real estate. At least its not retail commercial!

Sounds good until we ask how much, to whom and how, where is the money going to come from and for how long, with realistic numbers so we don't do unsupported "make-believe."

More sharing, not buying what is not needed, more equalizing and cooperation is one side of the balance -- also sounds good but clashes with the other side -- our needs to compete in a insecure and imperfect world, the basic amorality of all organisms, and the need to believe impossibles and improbables that drives risk. Who gets vaccine in what order is an example.

Re work done by those able to survive exposure, they may be asymptomatic carriers and their denial (and risk) endanger us all and prolong the pandemic. That was the point of my latest post, which sought ways to make them more socially responsible.

Don’t expect an answer,...

Unfortunately, people are selfish and careless.

A friend of the family allowed his friend to stay with him - he was on hard times and needed a place to lay his head. Well, as always, he took advantage of him and overstayed his welcome. Still, things were okay. Last week, he did the unthinkable - he was partying with friends and he contacted Covid. Then he brought it to the house and to our friends son.

Did he do it on purpose? Of course not!

Is he a denier? I doubt it - he's not that bright to come to a conclusion on his own!

Did he put his needs (getting high) over the safety of his host? Yes and this is where I have a huge concern.

Should treatment be withheld? If others need it more than him, then yes, he needs to go to the back of the line (this is my belief). If there's nobody in front of him (and his group of people), then sure, give him treatment!

Fact: This fool was kicked out of the house and is either in Oregon or Washington or on his way. Most likely infecting others along the way. I would've rather seen him in a halfway house for Covid infected people. Keep the sick together and quarantined.

Wisconsin Healthcare workers and adult living facilities staff and residents are the first in line for us.

Related Link:

https://insights.globalspec.com/article/15603/covid-19-mortality-risk-calculator-can-prioritize-u-s-vaccine-delivery

An interesting way to look at it. Protect the ones who are most at risk of dying. Front line workers are only put in the front of the line if there's a good chance they'll die, not if there's a good chance they'll get sick.

Very pragmatic way to look at it and after giving some thought, it does make sense. Though the bleeding hearts will not like it. Also, it doesn't do a whole lot to keep it from spreading. Instead, it protects the ones who need it the most.

I'm going to have to give this some more thought ...

By the way, I had a feeling this was true: Only about 4% of the population determined to be at high risk is expected to contribute to about 50% of total deaths.

IMHO, there should be a national lottery, in this way no group has priority over another as to who can receive the vaccine. An immediate cross section of of effects would then be seen within the population.

Very interesting, but a fair way to distribute something in short supply.

Or we can be like old Communist Russia and have people wait in long lines - not very efficient indeed!

What if the vaccine has a delayed debilitating effect and all medical and first responders having been vaccinated would in mass, be unable to work? Ouch!

Great point! However, if the creators of the drug and their upper management are required to take it, then there's a good chance that it'll be safe. What's that saying about taking ones own medicine - literally!

Makes tons of sense!

The nurses and doctors I know have mixed feelings, though the consensus is that the public is being used as a guinea pig as not enough Phase III testing was done. I get it and I'm on the fence.

If I'm given a chance to take it now, will I? Maybe the Moderna vaccine, but I don't know. I took a Yellow Fever live virus about 14 years ago and I can still feel that it's done something to me. And I was told that I can NEVER donate blood again, because of it. I wish I would've been better educated - my bad!

My son-in-law is an ER doctor in Texas and he has no qualms getting the vaccine when it becomes available to the workers in the hospital. In fact, he is looking forward to it.

Does he have a preference on which one?

I don't recall which one they had. He didn't have a preference for one over the other since he didn't talk much about them, other than wanting to get the vaccine.

I have one other comment.. so if the emergency rooms are overwhelmed at 100% capacity.. (took my friend to emergency room in ohio and there was absolutely nobody there!!) but if there are places where it is... what happened to the ships?? the ones that were never used?? yea those??

lets wake up people.. we should be smarter than that eh?

i remember when this first showed its head.. the eagle guy (i believe) posted that korea was using Hydroxychloroquine.. and chloroquine... remember?? but that is not used?? ugh!!

Be careful listening to statistics of hospital utilization rates. Most hospitals here in So Cal are not anywhere near 100% capacity (total beds). LA is at 37% of hospital beds with Covid cases, which is high, but there's still 63% of beds used for non-Covid cases. And with elective medical treatments near 0% (due to our shutdown), then the utilization metric is off. What is the number that throws up a red flag - 60%, 70%? I wish a non-biased group would take a better look at this.

Here's a cool site to see how your county is doing. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours

We were visiting my daughter and her husband at Camp Pendleton over the Christmas holiday and it was interesting to watch the local San Diego news channels, and little was said about intensive care units in southern California, and yet the national outlets couldn't stop talking about it.

I don't get it. Maybe I do . . . .

Shhhhh. We're just lemmings and we MUST follow what the news media tells us to do and believe. If they say the recent stimulus package is a $900B expense to our country, then it is! And the solution to Covid 19 is Testing, Testing, Testing and Masks, Masks, Masks.

I like the news media, as I have experience with their language. And I also know enough science and have experience in judging what makes sense. I do not believe things just because I want them to be true. And I try to see the reasons for opinions contrary to mine.

There are many solutions to the problems caused by Covid, and testing and masks are two, as well as vaccination and the cooperation of the young who may not die but who can spread it to us elders. I am fortunate that I don't have to contact many people, I work from home, my own children are grown and far away and I feel most secure when most protected. I am not alone.

The problem with mass testing of asymptomatic people is that is only a snapshot in time. Five minutes after you leave the test site, you can become infected. And you won't know it unless you are tested every day or you develop symptoms. Just doesn't seem to make any cents to do mass testing of asymptomatic people. Certainly, people in certain positions, it may make sense to do daily tests for people in high risk, high exposure positions but not for the majority of us.

Masks may provide some measure of protection, but apparently masks and social distancing don't help you if you are eating at the French Laundry because, there you are immune.

I have also found that actions tell a lot more about the "truth" than words - I think you'll agree with this. Our media tells us that this is so dangerous and deadly (I agree it's dangerous, but not to the level our media portrays it to be) that unless we're in the safety of our home, we need to wear a mask. I know it's not that extreme, but this is what the media is blasting out here in CA. To be realistic, let's say it's 70% true and 30% fluff.

So why is our governor at a birthday party (social gathering) dining indoor in a restaurant (outdoor dining was required at the time) and not following safe protocol (no masks and no social distancing)? Why would he risk his life for such a minor thing like a birthday party? Or maybe it's not as deadly as they're claiming it to be. Maybe it's more like 30% true and 70% fluff?

Here's a fact, I personally know only eight people who have been tested positive and based on their situation, I believe the test to be accurate. Here are the eight:

1. Woman in her 50's, not in bad shape, but not in good shape either and in good health. Her worst symptoms were body ache and fever. She had it for less than a week and has fully recovered, except her sense of smell and taste are still off.

2. Man in his late 40's, not in good shape physically, but in good health. His worst symptoms were slight body aches. He had it for less than a week and has fully recovered. His sense of taste is still off.

3. Man in his early 40's, in decent shape and healthy. Asymptomatic and only a slight loss of taste.

4. Woman in her late 30's, not in good shape physically, vapes, but in good health. She had pretty bad body aches, a cough, sore throat, weakness, fever, short term memory was weak. It lasted just shy of two weeks and she's recovered, but still her sense of smell and taste is off.

5 and 6. Two boys 11 years old. Asymptomatic.

7. Boy 8 years old. Asymptomatic.

8. Man in his early 40's, I don't know what the outcome is, but while he was sick, he took a Greyhound out of state - jerk!!!

So far, nobody I personally know has had a bad Covid experience. And since it's out of control here in So Cal, I and my friends/clients must be very lucky or things aren't as bad as it's being reported.

The thing I do find amazing is that the media isn't doing a great job reporting on the huge number of businesses that are gone. A person works hard to save enough to open a business, sinks every ounce of energy into it, mortgages the home, hits credit cards, borrows from family and friends, works 7 days a week, is constantly thinking of business and now he has to close up, because the state tells him he can't run his business as he would like.

Yesterday, I drove down Green Street (busy street in our downtown area). There was only one other car on the street and I saw one person walking his dog. Four more for lease signs that I didn't see the last time I was there. I turn the corner and there's a row of businesses boarded up with for lease signs. I went to the grocery store and the parking lot was only 1/2 full - it's usually 85-90% full. I stopped by the Burger King drive thru at noon - two cars in front of me and nobody behind me. I drove home yesterday and I took Colorado Blvd, because I had to drop off a package at Fed Ex. Three customers in the entire store - and it's a big one! As I drove down Colorado, I noticed a lack of traffic - this is the busiest street in town. More for lease signs popping up. I passed Cameron's Seafood and they're out of business. The owner of 34 years did everything the city, county and state told him. Close up in spring. Reopen to outdoor dining only and take out. He built a nice patio area on the east side of the building, put heaters up and a nice covering. In December, he was told to shut down again. Last week, he decided to retire. Where are the employees going to find a job? They'll be in line with the hundreds of thousands of other LA workers who lost their job when the company closed.

I think we as people want things to be fair. We have a general idea of what is and isn't fair. What's happening now is wrong, but the media tells us its required, because Covid is so deadly.

For those who believe the media hype, take a look at the total deaths in the US thru Nov 2020 vs 2019 (I use November, because that's the latest figure I was able to find). I won't tell you the results, just look them up yourself. And ask yourself, if this is even 1/2 as bad as the media is portraying, why isn't the death rate 5X the 2019 rate. How about 4X? 3X? 2X?

Jumping off my soapbox.

I hope you're not right, because it sure seems like it!

One trip to the hospital will change your mind, but we are not allowing the media to report from hospitals. I take it you don't know any doctors or nurses who work in hospitals there? They will give you a serious wake up call. Don't buy the Big Lie.

So True, the world is not ending. But over 300,000 Americans missed Christmas this year that didn't need to. More will be missing it next year. This didn't need to happen.

Please do not let your impatience overide your humanity. We have enough of those idiots in this country already.

When the unnecessary loss of life no longer upsets us we have lost our humanity and are not even equal to animals.

I will reserve comments on the death count until late 2021 or early 2022. The death toll number due to COVID is highly politicized and due to inconsistencies in how COVID deaths were/are reported, all those numbers lack confidence.

The one number that cannot be politicized is the total cumulative deaths for a given period irrespective of cause. For that, we will have to wait to analyze the seasonal and annual numbers for the period leading up to the pandemic, during the pandemic, and then after the pandemic to really assess what the pandemic meant to humanity.

"This didn't need to happen" is an over-simplification and implicit blame laying. All those people didn't need to die in Andrew Cuomo's nursing homes either. Which may or may not be a fair statement.

It has nothing to do with impatience. It has everything to do with reality.

And just what is a necessary loss of life?

As I said before, we are at the end of this road. (see my post in the break room) Equivocation and grey area thinking is not going to help us. Wrong is wrong. The number is under reported. That has been the story from WHO, CDC, WRAIR, and Johns Hopkins all along.

So yes you are right, the end total will different. It will be devastating.

1.14.21 CDC REPORT 383351 deaths

You can disagree with me, I am perfectly willing to refer back to this specific post in 6 months if you wish.

CDC COVID Data Tracker

Bookmark it in Outlook and it will pop up in six months. I am that certain of my information and sources and I'll be here to eat crow if it comes to that. Believe me, BSR, I would love to be wrong on this.

Why? Because a mistake is not the end of the world . . . unless you storm the US Capitol based on it.

I disagree with you,... and the reason why I disagree with you is you are steadfast with nothing more then an opinion where you already believe you know know the answer before all the data as well as facts are in.

this is the problem with experts today,... their profession is turning into meteorology-like profession so to speak and is very misleading.

In this case, You are wrong.

As you may have missed it I'll say it again. Bookmark the page, I'll be here in six months, good lord willing and the creeks dont rise, to bear the shame or graciously accept the apology.

I sure as hell hope I am wrong.

It would be more prudent to keep an open mind until more data and facts come to light before you make a proclamation based on nothing more than an opinionated assumption, then you wouldn't need have to so much hope.

But that’s my opinion,...

Excuse me, but I am citing from authoritative sources which I listed. I did not expand or expound upon the statement nor did I fabricate numbers. I simply repeated what we have all heard for months. page after page. Source after source. Covid numbers underreported I find it to be correct. That is all I am saying.

Its not "my" opinion. This is where you miss the point.

Excuse me,... i may have missed the point, I sure you can find it correct interesting enough with the lack and incomplete numbers, data as well as facts of the direction of this thread.

but you need to question the authorities that are making assumptions, which is what it amounts to. If want to follow blindly because they hold a title and imposes their superiority over you because their experts, that’s your proghtive, then it is you that have to learn by your mistakes and stop repeating it.

Keep an open mind, and even challenge issues before following it obstinately and blindly. Saves a lot of bitching later.

The media has done such a good snow job that people believe anything our famous doctor says.

It's been proven that a story becomes fact if it's heard enough times.

Ask people if Covid is alive and most will say yes. I did this a month ago and very few had a clue how a virus infects our body. Most thought it was a living being and that it had intelligence (a brain). Some told me that the virus is smart enough to only go into a human body - that it'll direct itself into our bodies, like it has wings. Some told me that the Covid virus is like a dandelion and when wind blows, the seeds blow all over and get us sick.

On the few occasions I've watched the local news, I can see how people get these crazy ideas. I've heard many reports say that the virus is alive or we have to kill the virus. Sadly, I spoke to a nurse (RN) who told me that the virus is alive. We had an argument about it and in so many words, she said that the virus is like a bacteria and it multiplies in our bodies.

When people believe things, it's very hard to change their mind.

COVID is a true killer. So far it’s killed the flu, cancer, heart disease - it killed the ability to think, logic & common sense. It killed the economy, the working class, & millions of jobs. It killed millions of businesses, human connection, love and compassion.

"I'll hear a different point of view. And I can agree to disagree."

and here in lies the issue. those on the left will not listen to a different point of view. they have their

point of view and if you do not agree than they will cancel you, and soon more...

i remember the Michigan Democrat Cynthia Johnson's threats to trump supporters:

"to you trump supporters, walk lightly, we ain't playing with you", and then she addressed

her "soldiers", " you know what to do, do it right, make them pay"..

A point of view is a very different thing than standing in the bully Pulpit and inciting insurection.

You can "believe" trump was a good president all you want. That is your right to believe it. As even Ted Cruze admitted there is no law in America against being an idiot.

What the idiots dont seem to understand is what Isaac Asimov stated far more succinctly than I ever could.

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

I.Asimov

Which is great for the overview, but this one nails where we are at in this moment perfectly.

When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.

I. Asimov.

I hope that helps you understand the difference between having an opinion that helps and one that doesnt. Smart people dont waste time on the one that doesnt. Dont be offended. Do better has always been my response.

Wear a mask and keep yourself 6 feet away from others. I remember hearing this in August and even before. Our VP stated this - During a June 17 interview on "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert," Harris told Colbert that protests — not riots — should not let up.

Am I missing something here. I thought the biggest battle we had was the fight against Covid. Isn't this why we've destroyed thousands of businesses and screwed millions of landlords? Did I miss something or were protesters keeping 6 feet from each other?

Double standards?

Because it Trump platform disagrees with people like rash... that will now incite violence from people like rash.

I watched the impeachment on my local news earlier this week. Here's what I saw.

1. One of our congressmen (woman) making the assumption that our former POTUS was part of the plan to not only stop the election, but to kill the VP and a congresswoman from CA. I listened very closely to hear someone come up with positive evidence and I didn't hear it.

2. Our lawmakers were making blanket statements about the guilt of the people who were arrested (the ones at the Capitol). I thought a person had to be convicted of a crime to claim that they committed the crime. At the impeachment, the convicted were guilty!

3. The Beastie Boys sang about fighting for your right to party. If a teenager beat up his classmate, because he finked on him about a party, does that make the Beastie Boys guilty?

4. If a co-worker complains about her boyfriend and I take action and kill him, I always thought that I, the murderer, was the guilty one.

5. I also didn't hear the POTUS tell the crowd to break into the Capitol, ransack Madam Chair's office, scare her staff, break windows and mirrors and try to break into the chamber. Did I miss that part?

6. Back in the 80's, the Detroit Pistons won the championship and the people rioted. They flipped cars, burned stores and probably did a lot more "illegal" things. So, are the players on the Pistons at fault for having a bad boy image? You know, bad boys incite riotous acts, so shouldn't they have been arrested?

I'd like to quote a famous and deceased poet:

"'Let them eat cake' she says
Just like Marie Antoinette
A built-in remedy
For Kruschev and Kennedy
At anytime an invitation
You can't decline"

or better yet!

"... Beelzebub has put the devil to the side for me, for meeee, for meeeeeeeee"

"When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent."

I. Asimov.

Interesting that you quote a man who died from a virus.

adds a bit of punctuation.

Asimov died from complications of AIDS which he got from a blood transfusion in the early days (1977) when they (we) didn't know so much. He said a lot of useful things, worth googling and readng, but his cause of death is irrelevant to the content of his sayings.

As for incitement, call it inspiration and you may have a different view. Leaders don't lead, they see where the others are going and inspire them to go on. There are countless examples, from Hitler and more modern back to the Crusades and earlier. If we want to humanize and depolarize, we must see destruction and killing as threats to peaceful living, and that includes ignoring established systems and practices. Instead, we can be proud of the social cooperation that brings us food, power, water, education, and more.

Our civilizations learned to afford democracy and oppose kings, and we need leaders who can see this rather than inspire those who want to be led because they want the same results; to them the ends justify the means.

The bit of punctuation I was refering to was the VAST amount of 'fake news' about AIDS that had been spread and the same fear that kept the real information from the people who needed it. Throughout history tens of millions have died from fear based misinformation being purposely spewed for personal gain and reasons other than altruism. Aids was no different and guess what? It's happening right now.

AS for the "incitement" you would have to understand what the Bully Pulpit is and how much power it has.

I do believe we did answer that age old question, again, on January 6th though.

"Who's the greater fool, the fool or the fools who follow them."

Many have stood in the bully pulpit, but only one has been persecuted for it.

Could it have somethinhg to do with how it was used and for what end?

All in the eyes of the beholder.