Who Should Get the Vaccine First?

He was an atheist, so he was against religion and a therefore a higher being. As humans, we have a calling to a higher being, some great being, who gives us rules to live by. Without these rules, who determines what is right and wrong? Society and the individual?

Patriotism is about the love for your country, your duty and the willingness to sacrifice. Without religion, how can one grasp the concept of willingness? Remember that there is a moral value to being patriotic. By the definition of patriotism, stupidity cannot be considered patriotic.

An atheist is a disbeliever of God.

Atheists aren't automatically against religion. One can have one's own opinion on higher beings, and still be tolerant and respectful of others who see differently .. or one can be committed to a religious view but intolerant and destructive to alternates .. and everything in between.

This is important in one's attitude to vaccination (the original topic here) especially based on social responsibility, but enough potential for off-topic argument for me to stop here.

Well, there is a difference between religion and believing in god...

Yes, that's true. I could be wrong, but I think most atheists are anti religion.

To keep on topic, do you feel it's the responsibility for a person to get vaccinated? If so, why? If not, why not?

Twisted Sister recorded an anthem . . . . .

Maybe they should have been persecuted?

"You're all worthless and weak!"

Great Video

I hear they're next to be impeached!

You are free to believe whatever nonsense you wish. I follow the money because its money that runs the world not corporations. People now have more money than entire countries. That is real power.

Facebook is the right wings new Voolkisher Beobachter. I dropped that four years ago as I will not support facism in any form. Any use of Facenbook only gives income to the forces I oppose.

Can you explain your thoughts on Facebook? I go on FB about once a year or maybe twice. I don't have time for it and I've found that I can get drawn into conversations that I have no interest in participating in. So I avoid it.

Politically, I thought FB and it's founder was more on the left? Am I wrong about that?

Wow, talk about a blast from the past. Hey AB.

FB is a tool. A tool with tremendous power OVER people. Like any tool its user determines whether or not its value is positive or negative to the task at hand.

As a means for maintaining contact with others across distances it is useful. Its great to chat with famly and friends. Share pictures and such family events. Had it remained that, not a problem. But that is not how monetization works. Monetization requires constant stoking of the profit furnace to appease shareholders. Facism is extremely profitable in the US. Doesnt take too long for the power and control folks of facism to join up with the irresponsible profits at all costs crowd and viola. Disaster.

There is a tremendous amount of negative psychology behind it. Billions have been spent by some of the least upstanding actors to pervert its purpose and misuse it for profit and gain. FB has sat quietly by and allowed this while gleefully raking in profits. Some in the refugee community point ot it as the cause of the mass migrations. People being told theres free everything in Europe and them not being advanced enough to realize its fake. You dont just hand someone a computer and they instantly become a altruistic 21st century humanist or even intelligent.

The harm it did to our society is already obvious. The addictive quality of it is terrifying to a mental health professional. The number of teenage suicides it has facilitated is criminal. The whole trumpism thing is a full on product of FB.

How many people would not have died in the last year had the misinformation not been rife AND PROMOTED by FB.

And that is the really dangerous aspect. No accountability. No responsibility. That does not produce positive benefit for society, but it is fertile ground for criminals and bad actors. I'm sorry the lessons of the last 5000 years are inconvenient, but humans are NOT good stewards of freedom.

Americans by and large are very focused on money and as such are still very enamoured with slavery and the profit it produces. This is the underlying strain of racism in America. It's predicated on the need for a person to feel superior to others and be allowed to demonstrate the superiority by abusing the supossed "less" human.

We have made it harder and harder to abuse black people in America so now the assholes are turning on Latina and Asian. There is no appeasing the broken and fragile. In attempting to do so we have created an entire society of the worst humans have to offer.

In my calculations the benefit of of Facebook is now outweighed by the harm it does. Time to eliminate and create the next tool and this time do it with the understanding that people will misuse it IF GIVEN THE CHANCE.

A very precise and eloquent description of not only FB, but how people function.

I'll admit, when I first found FB, I was intrigued by the thought of finding friends who I lost track of. Heck, even old classmates, co-workers and as crazy as it sounds, my former enemies! I was guilty of the desire to touch my past again.

What did I learn. I spent way too much time re-connecting with people who are no longer interested in the things I am, or respond in ways that I don't choose to be around. They may have outgrown me or I've outgrown them. Though it is fun to reminisce - at least for a while.

I see it this way; if I want to live in the manner I grew up, I'd move back to the neighborhood and hang out with the old friends - the ones that never moved on. Since I have no desire to live that life, I've chosen to move on and to grow and mature (at least I like to believe I have). So FB gave me a glimpse of my past and the good thing is that most of the people I grew up with have moved on. We've gone our separate ways and chosen different paths in life. And we can only spend so much time reminiscing - if we don't, we fail to move forward. This is why I chose to limit my time on FB. It was fun going back to the past, but there are a lot of things I need to accomplish and spending time on FB isn't going to help.

The funny thing is that I spend time on places like LinkedIn, this site, Alfabb (car stuff) and email - and of course the phone. 2020 was tough, because we like to spend time with friends - I think it was the year we spent the least amount of time with friends. However, I did keep off of FB and I has a reasonably productive year.

This is getting very long, so I'll leave with a final thought; the original idea behind FB was to be a platform to connect people. If it went back to it's roots, I think it would be a much better site. Right now, I don't like all the "stuff" that passes around and how there's too many nasty comments on the site. Too many personal agendas.

The interesting thing that I noticed is that the vaccines were developed at record pace last year and if I'm not mistaken, our former President had a lot to do with it. I also recall that the big pharmas were not allowed to "gouge" people - it was all about getting "us" back to normal.

I don't recall the last time that the media gave any credit to our former President. In fact, the new guy has pretty much taken credit for the success of the vaccine.

I find this very interesting and unfortunately, the general public has a very short memory. I have a feeling the history books will say that President Biden was responsible for the Covid 19 vaccine success.

What primarily accelerated the vaccine development was discovering that the protein spikes of COVID 19 (notice the section on Function of the S protein) virus were identical to the SARS and other virus protein spikes. Years of earlier research into making an MRNA based vaccine for the spike proteins of earlier scourges were shelved when those diseases burned themselves out in the wild.

To give the earlier administration proper credit, Operation Warp Speed(OWS) did contribute to rapid development and fabrication in the USA, particularly by removing the financial risk for a pharmaceutical company in developing and manufacturing an approach that did not work. All plausible approaches were sent to production before efficacy was determined. This is the primary reason the US has a stockpile of the yet to be approved in the US AstraZenica vaccine to distribute to countries that approved this vaccine.

OWS was also supposed to expedite distribution of whatever vaccine obtained approval but appeared to bog down at the prioritization and allocation stage. That observation maybe overly harsh for the timing of this stage coincided with the US presidential election days. Apparent distribution delays were politicized at the time and may have been unavoidable, nominal human errors (snafu) were exaggerated or the ball was seriously dropped. Which of these three scenarios may not be determined until historians look back in time.

I have one additional personal comment on the effectiveness of OWS. Many different countries develop COVD 19 vaccines, including those outside of OWS influence. These vaccines are months and not years behind those developed with the aid of OWS. OWS may have expedited the delays of our commercial medicine system but public release of critical scientific knowledge took years out of the process for everyone.

That's about the best summary I've read.

So far, we know that Moderna and Pfizer vaccines put "spikes" in our body. If I understand this correctly, our cells become "spike" factories and the huge number of "spikes" tricks our immune system to go full blast to remove these "spikes" from our bodies. Since our body "learns" how to attack the "spike", when a Covid 19 virus enters our body, our immune system attacks it, so it cannot alter our cell function (so it doesn't become a Covid 19 factory).

J & J uses the traditional vaccine method, which is to find a less dangerous virus and introduce it into our body. Our immune system can then figure out how to fight the intruder - we build antibodies.

I don't know what the difference between the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine is. If anyone knows, please share it with us.

The Pfizer vaccine puts the payload (mRNA) in a lipid based nanoparticle. Moderna puts the same payload into a benign rhino virus. This rhino virus delivery technique is used also in flu and many other vaccines. It was implied in the seminar I attended that the mRNA payloads for both of these vaccines were constructed from studying the protein (spikes) to be created and not disassembling the pathogen RNA.

Thanks for the info.

I find it very interesting how the spikes were constructed vs breaking the Covid virus down.

If "they" want to be closed minded, they don't have to listen to me. In the long run, "they" will lose, because "they" will not understand how I think.

I think of the times I've blown it and most likely, I was being stubborn and closed to listening to someone's advice or opinion. I've learned some painful lessons this way!

And the one thing many people seem to have forgotten,

"When you are not allowed to question the science, it is not science."

-BSR

So true!

And the new thing that was started in 2020 - we can erase the history we don't like. Tear down our statues. Change the names of things that have negative connotations, even though the naysayers didn't research why it was given that name. And my favorite - when a criminal harms others and is caught, he can't be handled like a criminal - even if he resists or tries to harm the officer. Criminals can use force against their victim or the police, but since they had such a terrible upbringing, we must not harm them. I know it's not that bad, but the general message is there.

Is consensus agreement among scientists, science?

If so, is there a minimum number for it to become a consensus?

It’s a dialog, not a lecture (beat down)

Absolutely...

That's what allows innovation and challenging the status quo. Communication.

As an engineer I am an applied scientist. We all start life with magic and unexplained events. Later in childhood I leaned cause-effect, logic and healthy distrust. I then was lucky to become what I already was.

I use the science I learned to make decisions and opinions based on what I see, not what I believe. I don't follow leaders, especially ones who believe what they want to be true. Leaders, in fact, are the real followers, whether of facts or popular images and feelings or a combination of these, sensibly balanced.

Responding to your 6 topics:

1. Wearing a mask is helpful. Depends on where and in front of whom. Freedom is defined as much by what you restrict as by what you allow. We all live in cooperative groups, since before caveman days.

2. N95 refers to what the fabric can catch and stop. It is neither perfect nor useless.

3. Any nose/mouth covering helps, protects both ways. If you don't have symptoms or mild ones, you can still have the virus and transmit to others. You are just doing a better job resisting its effects.

4. Form-fitting helps, nothing is perfect but like N95 imperfect doesn't mean useless.

5. Yes, my covering protects me and others, viruses travel on water droplets and can be caught in fabrics. We use filters all the time, for tea and coffee, cigarettes, laundry lint and our intestines.

6. I often wear two as I block more at the sides, and feel better about the ones I still use after washing.

Most important, I feel stronger if I am free to follow what I see as logical truth.

I believe Autobroker was trying to say that the 'science' was all over the map as this pandemic progressed, and not necessarily questioning the efficacy of any one or more particular recommendations from the 'experts'.

In some cases there is little science involved. For instance: six feet or two meters.

Why that number?

Science would tell us that twelve feet is better than six and three feet is worse than six. But, a political decision was made to maximize the separation distance, while still being able conduct 'life' reasonably well, and make that number easy to recognize instead of some number like 7.352 feet or e^pi decimeters.

Of course at one point, Hawvahd was recommending that unmarried people engaging in whoopee wear a mask. Even people who normally live together.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/couples-should-wear-face-masks-during-sex-new-study-insists/

But hopefully we can concentrate on getting people vaccinated instead of wasting time and money and further dividing the U.S. by impeaching someone who isn't even in office.

I agree with you re six feet, a good example of applied science, recognizes that distance matters and there is a balance between near-perfect (far away) and probable infection (very close); and time at the distance matters, too, and whether you are talking or singing or not.

As for whoopee in bed, I followed your link -- it's a Murdoch-tabloid attention-grabber taken from a professional journal. and distinguishes not between married and unmarried, but familiar and unfamiliar. Makes sense, if you imagine taking your supermarket checker or bank teller to bed. Risk does carry an image of strength and bravery and is so lauded in literature, but life and business teach us countervalues of skills, plans, knowledge, judgment and rewards.

And now we have vaccination, which may save a few of us but may be resented by those who think it won't kill them so why bother? Asymptomatic carriers, that's why. And that's why I want young people vaccinated as soon as possible, as no catch = no spread. On topic, right?

As for impeachment, I avoid all extremes (which loses me friends) but the engineer-planner in me is aware that its primary function is not trivial, but rather to make all senators leave a record to go with them to their next run for office. And I expect that the pandemic and the economy are still the highest priorities as they should be, but in cooperation not competition.

Regarding the safety of the vaccine and long term effects; I don't know the answer to this, as I have not done much research. I have done quite a bit of research into why the FDA requires such a long approval process. I also understand why the third phase was expedited and why the vaccine is being rushed to waiting arms.

Here's my concern. I believe this is the first FDA approved vaccine that uses RNA to modify cellular functions. I heard that companies like Moderna, have been working on this approach for 10 years without FDA approval. In fact, prior to Covid, they had no products in phase III. Can anyone say that this won't have some sort of negative effect in people, say 5, 10, 20 or 50+ years down the road? I don't know the answer to it, however I watch the actions of people who have much more information and experience than I do. The scientists who created it and the project managers. If they're willing to sacrifice their kids and grandkids (give them the vaccine), then my guess is that they believe there are minimal to no long term effects. I'm on board at that point. Right now, I'm on the fence.

Yes, mRNA vaccines are new but as this Harvard web publication shows this is not a "knee jerk", "stab in the dark" technique to develop a vaccine with no foundation. A lot of preliminary research and testing has been performed before this pandemic disease was ever known. As the publication shows, there are significant advantages to this mRNA approach, too.

IMHO I expect some unknown, probably long term safety risks for this vaccine technique do exist for some unfortunate individuals. I expect the risk from not taking these or any vaccines will be far greater than the unknown risks of taking a vaccine.

{Excuse me but I must don my obnoxious, callous, Personal Protective Equipment for this next blunt comment.} The only way to guarantee not being afflicted with the effects of this disease or risking an unknown complication of the vaccines for this disease is to die first from some other cause. The choice is yours and yours alone.

I intend on getting one of these vaccines as soon as I can. With the present production rates that looks like no sooner than mid-April, if I'm lucky.

Agree. You make the case well, no need to add. It's probability that matters, and that needs judgment. Certainty (commitment) is comforting and soclally useful, but paralyzes judgment and risks error.

The great thing about our country is that we are given a choice.

I understand why you feel the way you do. I see it comes down to risk vs reward, as each person has their own belief system and risk tolerance.

unfortunately it is not a ours and ours alone.

mr biden is talking about making us get the vaccine. cant fly, can't get a drivers license ect.

wonder what happened to "my body, my choice"?, that's ok when we want to kill babies...

but if I choose I do not need a vaccine, they twist the clamp on my nuts.

Hang on. Personal liberties are in for a rough ride.

Freedom of speech is already dead.

A body decision does not affect anyone other than the parents, and shouldn't be forced on anyone. However, a vaccination decision affects all of us and the economy as well. Years ago, we blocked immigration to the USA for contagious people (in those days, tuberculosis). Maybe still do. Same principle, better understood now.

There's a difference between suicide and mass murder, between blowing up your own house and blowing up an office building as in OKC or WTC. If we want food and clothing without growing or sewing, 24/7 power, water and internet, we have some communal responsibility.

I understand fear of science and the uncertainty of vaccines, but they have a self-correcting feature; if they don't work well enough, we know it quickly. 34 million doses here so far, more elsewhere, so I'm convinced. I want the choice of what to believe, but to make that choice I need to understand credible evidence, and must be careful not to believe only what I want to be true.

I think you have the right to not vaccinate, and if enough of us do vaccinate, it won't matter. Until then, I and many others will avoid close unmasked contact with most everyone, including kids and recovered Covid cases. The reward is worth the inconvenience.

No, actually the undocumented immigrants are being released without being tested first. But if you fly into the country and enter by legal means including U.S. citizens, you have to be tested before being allowed to enter.

Do flyers have to be tested here and wait after arrival, or can they get tested abroad (and how many days in advance)? I don't expect you to know these details but they are obviously important. As for undocumenteds, can they be released without knowing who they are? With all the desire to optimize immigration, helped along by Covid and the infection rate in Mexico, I'd expect that numbers are way down. I avoid close unmasked contact with everyone anyway, which has its advantages.

My friend's daughter was vacationing in Mexico late last month and she was not permitted to board the aircraft to return home unless she had a negative test result from the last 24 hours. That's my only point of reference at this time regarding international air travel to the U.S.

As of Jan 26th, a negative Covid test or proof of having Covid less than 90 days prior is required. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/ea/covid-19-information.html

There was also an Executive Order for self quarantine on Jan 21st: https://ticotimes.net/2021/01/21/united-states-to-mandate-isolation-after-return-from-international-travel

Thank you for info. My own daughter is in Mexico now, can work from anywhere if computers work, already had COVID and recovered, so she may test positive without being sick. I'm sure it's not the first time it's happened after we've had 10? million cases and Mexico had a lot, too.

She shouldn't test positive if she's already recovered.

However, if she does an antibody test, she'll test positive for the antibody. Basically a get out of jail free card for Covid.

If she does test positive for the antibody, she can donate plasma to help people who are susceptible.

If you don't mind me asking, how bad was her Covid? I've been asking people who had it - it's giving me some insight into the effects.

Glad to hear she recovered and hopefully without any lasting effects.

Are the 20,000 immigrants being let into the US being tested?

Is this being safe or is Covid not as big a problem as we're led to believe? Logically, since we're in a pandemic, wouldn't it make sense to keep these people out? I know it's nearly impossible to get into Canada if you're not a citizen. Why are we not protecting our borders?

There's an assumption being made that people who don't get the vaccine will be spreading Covid to others.

At this point in time, that's not the case. Here's why.

1. All the people who want to take the vaccine haven't.

2. By the time all the pro-vacciners have take it, we may reach herd immunity.

3. There are a lot (and I mean a lot) of people who have had Covid and survived. They have an antibody and their body knows how to fight it. So, if they're sick for 3-5 days the next time, they're not a big risk.

4. The weak who will get hit hard by Covid are the ones who need to take the vaccine. They're the ones who risk death and if they survive, they'll have it a long time and will increase the chance of spreading it.

5. If someone is vaccinated, then they shouldn't care if the person sitting next to them is sick. If the scientists are right, the chance of getting Covid is 3% or so if you're vaccinated.

6. IF (nobody knows, so it's an IF) there's some sort of negative long term effect from the vaccine, isn't it better to have some of the population not vaccinated?

Here's something I picked up on the internet. " During a phase 3 trial, a new drug is typically tested on several thousand patients who have the condition or disease it's designed to treat. Phase 3 drug trials can take anywhere from one to four years, and because they're so lengthy, they're more likely to reveal long-term side effects than the earlier trials."

Agree with 1 & 2. So does Fauci. Re #3, we don't know how long antibodies protect, may vary with person, with strain (mutation) and with climate. We need flu vaccines every year, but one anti-smallpox is lifetime. This is one of many reasons that responsible not wishful statistics are important. I make my own decision based on past evidence, probability, social responsibility and my age: get vaccinated ASAP and don't expect perfection. As for social responsibility, as I don't have to grow my food and have electric power, water and internet I have a lot of social responsibility.

I'm worried about the recovered as they can carry and expose others to the virus, even if they are partly or completely immune.

Yes, I agree that most vulnerable should get vaccine early along with healthcare workers and longterm care residents. Maybe food workers, teachers and essential industries next. I don't think the virus is just blowing us "dead leaves" off the trees. The rules in our home state and my HMO do put healthcare and other vulnerables first, and I expect there are flouters who think money will buy them life, but it can't even buy them love (Beatles). I want a popular image to give them shame, not admiration.

Your #4 and #5 are covered above. In #6 the real thing is so real that I can't afford to worry about side effects even long term. That's a reason the social responsibility is so important, as it justifies vaccinating the ones much less likely to die, to get closer to the herd immunity.

Re your comment on Phase 3 drug trials, that's a luxury we couldn't afford but didn't need as much either, as we had the attention of the world and instant communication of the Internet.

As for my daughter, who teaches yoga, breathing and such things, she had 2-3 months of coughing, fitful sleep, and a lot of muscle pain. Re fever, probably, but she doesn't own a thermometer. She's 44, an ex-athlete who learned from the men to shut up, suck it in and play even harder. Maybe OK in sports, but not viruses. My concern is how long and how strong is her immunity now, as her COVID was almost a year ago.

I appreciate your response and hearing your point of view.

First, I'm glad to hear your daughter has recovered! That's super important!

I believe that we had Covid in our house about a year ago too. My better half was sick for over a month - she had what she called a bad Strep throat. The doc ran tests and called back to let us know it's not Strep. He didn't know what it was - he called it some sort of flue, so he recommended the standard flu treatment - rest, fluids, etc. I had a strange sore throat that didn't get bad - it felt like it was the start of a sore throat, but never got past that stage. Oh yeah, she also felt tired and her taste was definitely off. We don't know if we had it, but she's done a few Covid tests and they've all been negative. She also had an antibody test (1/2 year after Covid) and it was negative.

Since she wasn't tested positive, I can't say that it was in our house - not 100% sure. A few other people I know also had a similar type of sickness in Jan - Feb 2020 and they had a tough time too. Same thing, not Covid test either. In late Nov to present, I've known quite a few people who have had Covid (tested positive) and the worst was about 3 weeks of illness and one visit to the hospital (she wasn't that bad, so they sent her home a few hours later). All the others were a few days to a couple weeks of body pain, loss of taste, lack of energy, etc. There were two people who think they had it before (2nd round) and both had it much easier the second time - on had a runny nose and no other symptoms. Also, I know a few people who were asymptomatic. It seems like the latest "version" is more contagious and less severe.

And, of all the people I've spoken to, they told me that the worst part of Covid is the unknown. They all believe that the fear of dying was a factor in their mental health. I did ask why they worried so much and the general answer was the media and rumors from friends/acquaintances. The range of responses (regarding severity) was surprise how it wasn't so bad, to feeling that it's like a flu, but with worse body aches.

From my personal experience, through friends and associates, I don't see it as much of a threat to healthy moderately unhealthy people. For the ones who live an unhealthy lifestyle or have pre-existing conditions, I think they should do everything they can to avoid Covid and as soon as they can, they should get the vaccine.

For argument sake, let's take one possible outcome of the vaccine - there's a long term effect that shows up 5-10 years down the road - it is possible, because we're using genetics (mRNA) to alter the body's immune response vs a live virus approach. If we vaccinate everyone, then we have an entire population at risk. Four or five generations! We're putting our entire future at risk - in return, we're protecting one generation +. Risk/reward seems out of balance to all, except those in the high risk category.

"They" way it's our social responsibility. How about the social responsibility to the future generations?

You forgot, can't go in the store, can't go in the bank, can't walk down the street, can't push my trash can to the curb ...

When 5G becomes mainstream, watch out! They'll be able to track you so easily!

Honestly, it doesn't matter who is publishing 'news'. It's ALL attention grabbing, otherwise we'd all be watching C-SPAN. <Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz>

Facebook Independent fact checkers have determined your post to be false.

We could be talking about the news and entertainment industries, but I would be redundant.

Again...

On election night, I watched the whole gamut of news channels. I thought Fox would be biased to the right, but I was pleasantly surprised to see them being more middle of the road.

The other channels remained true to their color. It's funny to watch the commentator make a sour face when talking about the candidate she doesn't like!

I like to think of Bloomberg as a business channel, so the news should be business related. There's this really pretty gal who hates our former POTUS - she would make faces (unintentionally) and jab whenever she could. I think there were too many complaints, because she was taken off the morning show and put in a less watched time slot. Also, she has a terrible accent and she talks too fast, so it was hard to understand what she was saying.

Thanks. That's what I was trying to show.

I'm curious why six feet was chosen. Almost like determining that a Costco or Walmart is safe, but a mom and pop store isn't. Or why some states/counties/cities allow indoor dining, some outdoor only and some no dining, period.

And we all have a good idea why the impeachment is happening. We're making history again - though I just hope "they" don't erase the history "they" don't like.

The media's portrayal of the January riots at the Capitol is interesting in contrast with the BLM riots this summer.

1. There were five deaths at the Capitol. How many died during BLM riots?

2. No stores or businesses were looted at the Capitol. BLM?

3. The economic damage at the Capitol was in the millions. BLM?

4. The riot at the Capitol lasted less than a day. Parts of cities were taken over for much longer than that for BLM.

5. The rioters at the Capitol are "bad" people. The BLM rioters are "justified" in their acts.

6. When all this is done, it would be very interesting to compare the number of arrests/attendees at the Capitol vs BLM riots?

7. And also the term of the sentences.

8. The Capitol riots were about an injustice. The BLM riots were about an injustice.

The difference in media coverage is amazing. The commentary was something else!

That pretty much sums up the hypocrisy on full display for anyone who is willing to pay attention.

I don't know if you heard the mantra about following the science to create policies and solutions to fight Covid. My post was intended to illustrate the lack of science by so called scientists (I consider medical doctors as part of the group).

I'm just saying I don't have confidence in any of those numbers. And I am willing to wait a year, or even two to be able to really assess what happened.

I don't like to rush to judgment. That's like impeaching a president before any arguments are heard in the case or any evidence is presented.

Devastating can be one death.

CDC reports are just that. Reports of someone else's data. And they have no way of knowing whether that data is B.S. or not because they did not make the determinations. The CDC is not God. Nor is the WHO. They collect the data, process it, and report it. You know as well as me, that GIGO principles apply here too.

Would you care to place a percentage increase in total deaths compared to the average number of total annual deaths for the previous ten years? 10% more? 20% more? 50% more? Devastating is too subjective a term to be a useful description.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Far from it. I'm saying I don't trust the numbers being reported because of the politics. They could be under-reported just as easily as over-reported.

Yeah, all of those refrigerating tractor trailers outside of the hospitals are all part of the hoax. They're really refrigerating meat for the summer barbecues.

Skepticism is one thing. Denial is another thing all together.

Sorry but I have an online wake to attend for my friend and colleague to attend.

AS am I, but until then I will accept the best information we have available. It doesn't mean I accept it blindly. I do more than internet keyboard warrioring. I work for a major company that is providing tools and supplies to every stage of this battle from front line PPE to reagents and solutions for testing labs which is part of a team for the University of Wisconsin Hospitals. We fight this bugger every day AND IT IS WINNING!

WE ARE LOSING! which is what happens when you follow losers, not exactly a mystery.

We have facts to work from. All you have to do is talk to the people who are actually fighting this. Quarterbacking looks real easy until that 300 pound linebacker reminds you, painfully, Its not.

Part of the enemy in this case is obfuscation and deceit. The loss of confidence in what our experts say is obvious in this thread alone. The damage is extensive and will make turning this around all the harder.

I hope you can see that the attitudes have changed in the last couple weeks. Why? Maybe it's due to the media not shoving it down our throats. Now the media is fixated on those lucky ones who are getting the vaccine.

Have things really changed in the last couple weeks? I'm talking about facts. First, I'll show some headlines, then the facts.

Dec 15th, 17th, 21st, 24th and Jan 15th - in order.

'Frightening' reality: L.A. County has fewer than 100 ICU beds ...

Southern California ICU capacity drops to 0% while LA County ...

No ICU capacity: How hospitals are responding to the worst ...

California Is 1st State To Hit 2 Million Cases, And Hospitals ...

In Los Angeles, ambulances circle for hours and ICUs are full ...

After the inauguration:

3 days ago, 17 hours ago and 8 hours ago.

Available Hospital Beds - Los Angeles County

Tracking California COVID-19 cases at local hospitals - Los ...

Metrics to Guide Reopening - LA County Department of Public ...

This is from a Google Search I just did "icu beds los angeles"

Here's the raw data - we'll assume it's reasonably correct: http://file.lacounty.gov/SDSInter/dhs/1070348_DHSCOVID-19Dashboard.pdf

Graph #4 shows that there were never 0 available ICU beds in the LA County hospital group.

Chart #6 shows that we hit a max at 82% ICU capacity in the week of 1/10 to 1/16 and stayed there for two weeks.

We never got below 600 ventilators that weren't being used.

The media fed the Kool Aid and people drank without looking at the facts. It's a sad state of affairs when this happens. The question we should be asking is exactly, How powerful is our media?

DEFUND THE MEDIA:

• Turn off your TV.
• Put down your phone.
• Step away from the computer.

Then enjoy your life and get together with some close friends or family to celebrate what you have.

Agreed! The only way to remain sane and happy in the 20's.

Maybe we will revisit the Roaring '20s after the pandemic is 'over'?

First, thank you for your condolences. It is appreciated. I get tired and frustrated with solipsistic individuals that only acknowledge what impacts themselves directly. Particularly when I've been impacted more than once.

Second, while you did not specifically say that the pandemic was a hoax, not accepting the reported pandemic numbers accuracy because you perceive a political bias in some reporters of these numbers lends credence to a hoax.

Regardless of your personal beliefs, we are all in this mess together. We cannot come to a consensus on how to proceed on anything if we cannot work with the present data, regardless of its ultimate accuracy and resolution.

So who what should I put on the grill for today's dinner? (Apologies to anyone if this gallows humor offends. I needed it.)

I appreciate you stating your view on the topic. It isn't what I believe, but that's okay. We're allowed to have our own opinion, right?

One thing I do see is that beliefs about Covid also follow party lines. Your last sentence tells me you're on the left. Not that it's bad, but it seems like that's your take.

I saw some YTD numbers in the US thru November 2020 and there's very little difference from 2019.

How many additional cases of mental illness are there? I don't know, but my guess is that it's jumped up.

isn't it interesting how the flu virus is none existent this season??

and didn't someone, maybe cdc state that only 9% of the deaths were true covid deaths (vs covid +auto accident).

now lets allow the medications that can actually cure this virus.. maybe that would allow some more ppl to have Christmas nxt year. but this is a total political ploy at this point and maybe at every point...

we need to say enough.

Unfortunately, the only place "Enough !!" will be heard is at the ballot box.

Unless certain ballots magically appear and others disappear.

Many years ago, I heard something interesting on the radio. We just had an election in Chicago and the officials found a ballot by a person who used a very peculiar address as his residence. Back in the 50's or 40's, an expressway called the Dan Ryan was built. Prior to the expressway, a home lined street existed. Somehow, someone used that address when he registered to vote! The funny thing is that he got caught. Scratch that - we thought the funniest thing was that someone said something about it.

You see, in Chicago the cry is to vote early and vote often!

Since mid January, the media in So Cal would report how terrible conditions are - no ICU beds in the entire county, ambulances being turned away, etc.

One week later, the news would report numbers without the hyperbole. And magically, the spring flowers are blooming and we're getting back to reopening our schools, restaurants, lifting the curfew, returning to work ... LA County (and nearly all the state) is still purple, which is the worst Covid stage. Yet things are rosy now.

One could complain (which I initially did), but then I thought that it makes more sense to think of how I can invest to better utilize this information.

Notice how the rhetoric has changed. We're now in the "open up and get back to normal" mode. How fast the far left has gone from "the sky is falling" to optimistic.

Teachers are very upset. They thought the left had their back - keep the schools closed to protect the teachers! Now they're talking about how quickly they can reopen schools. You see, people can't go back to work if their kids are at home and now that we have a new regime in place, we need to go back to work. We have to show the world that "we've" solved the Covid problem! Yes, teachers are very upset and worried they'll be forced to go back.

Notice how the rhetoric has changed. We're now in the "open up and get back to normal" mode. How fast the far left has gone from "the sky is falling" to optimistic.

Yes,... bad orange man out... dementia man in.

I feel the same way.

He's our POTUS and I'll support him. I just hope he doesn't do too much damage in the next four years.

I have clients who work in hospitals and things are very busy there - been that way for a couple months.

I've been told by quite a few doctors and nurses, who were threatened by their employer for refusing to take the vaccine. The hospitals gave in and nobody lost their job.

Here in LA, the media reports from the hospital. It's been happening since this started. Reports of ambulances being sent away, because the hospital is full. So, I asked a friend of mine who works at Henry Mayo in Valencia. He told me that's not true. They have a huge tent where they do triage for Covid. On a given night, there's maybe 3-4 patients in the tent. He did say that there are patients inside the hospital and the ICU area is full. But they don't send people away. He said that a hospital would do this, because they're not a trauma center and the patient was stable, so they sent them away. A friend of mine (who is an ICU nurse) confirmed that hospitals in So Cal do this. The media only reports that Covid patients are being sent away when the arrive at a hospital.

These are facts, not opinions.

Interesting, I had my physical last week, other then the pandemic protocols there were some very different than usual interactions with the staff, that continued.

the first odd part that was quite different. all the staff was very talkative... more so than usual. All of the nurses where tell me a little insight of their personal lives as well as the work there.

I asked how is with actually going with the pandemic, they mentioned they have a few cases, but it was mild. Some did say had COVID-19 recently. I thought, ya, don’t panic the patients.

the other things were, was the little mistakes that was happening,

1.) first was I got a text notice that my yearly physical was coming up and to call. I called and the number went to the wrong department. This were determined as we were trying to figure out what’s happening. She said, this has been happening quite a bit she went on to talk about her personal life, where she had COVID during the holidays. After talking, I instead went online to do a previsit checkin for lab work.

2.) After a few days the lab results come back, and my next visit was to the doctor for the physical. The nurse would come in and take my preliminary readings, blood pressure and the like. One extra question she asked, and that was, was I depressed (with the pandemic) and that was understandable.

anyways, On my prior years visit, these nurses usually have a little talkative chatter, but you could tell, that they were busy and had to be elsewhere... not this time, as she talked, she actually rolled her chair back and was actually relax, where put her hands on her lap and talked... she then left,... because I’m she she had elsewhere to be....

3.) then my doctor came in, really great bedside manner, very thorough and precise... not today as I found out... (btw, he has his degree from Romania, I noticed a lot of these) he was a little more talkative then usual, but not bad. He look for my blood pressure, and the nurse forget to enter the results...

I thought to myself, this was somewhat concerning,... are they over worked, and need to vent.

He left the room and got the nurse, she came in and remembered what my blood pressure was and told the doctor and he entered it...

the doctor mentioned I’m due for a tetanus shot and asked if I wanted it, I said sure. He marked it down, and said the nurse will be right in. the doctor then made a note for next year for my next yearly physical, and he parted...

4.) another nurse came in for my test nurse for my tetanus shot, she notice the doctor left my history on the screen, she said that’s a no-no... she was also talkative. I asked how is it with the pandemic, she also said, it’s not bad, mild forms, but the worse cases were the elderly... as she talked, he father had just recently passed from cancer and continued to talk,... she seemed to need to vent... it came pretty quick for him, he was active, up to a few weeks before he passed. No long term suffering. We talked some more it was nice...

it seemed this visit the staff was showing its human side... I’m wondering if that was a plan/directive from the administration to do it for coping for their staff?... just speculation.

5.) I then went to the front desk for my paperwork and confirm my schedule for next year,... and the front desk look and saw the doctor had me to see him in 2 months... well, after she went and asked the doctor, he had ‘clicked’ on the wrong thing.

yes, it was differently...

Great feedback!

I have two thoughts about your experience.

1. With the huge number of people working from home (call center people), I've noticed that accuracy and precision has gone down the drain. Yes, there are conscientious people working, but the sloppy have become ... well, unbearable. The mistakes are so bad and it seems like there's nobody managing them. My theory is that the employees were watched when at the office. If they made a mistake, they were corrected and if bad enough reprimanded. Then the pandemic hit and they were sent home. Human nature being what it is, I think they made mistakes and nobody said anything. They started getting lazy and instead of checking for information, they just made things up. Still nothing from their supervisor. So now, they just make things up at their whim. And the customer has to accept a lower standard. There isn't a good alternative for them.

2. The number of people who are depressed is huge and growing. Seeing terrible things on TV, being isolated, hearing of friends getting sick or dying, etc. Minds go into a downward tailspin and there's nobody to catch them. Simple things like taking care of hygiene or alcohol excess (drugs too) - these are problems. Maybe the medical staff was told to check for the mental health of their patients. Either as preventative (Kaiser style) or to prevent lawsuits (you saw a patient who was obviously depressed and you did nothing - suing for $1M).

Or it could be something else. In this day and age, I've come to the conclusion that the information I've gleaned from 55 years on this planet may not apply in 2020 and 2021.

One final thought. This morning, I watched our new POTUS make some very bold claims about the new stimulus package. $1.9T is the number and he called it a go big plan (which is smaller than the last one at $2.5T, so something doesn't compute). Though the last one was called a $900B stimulus package, so doing the political/lawyer type thing, maybe $1.9T is stimulus and $6-7T is for friends. He made the claim that we won't get to full employment until 2025 if we don't do anything - I'm not sure where he came to the conclusion that the right didn't want to do anything, but it sounds good. With his $1.9T plan, we'll be back to full employment by the end of this year! Wow, that's bold. So, where are the employees of all the shuddered businesses going to get jobs? Or will they be employees of the government? Hmmmm. Maybe they'll be home health care workers, watching over family members? Because I don't see people rushing into being a brick and mortar business owner - not after they way we treated them last year. And we can't re-train the retail workers to be clean energy workers - not by the end of the year. Anyway, I don't understand how this will work, but maybe they know something I don't.

And with the new stimulus package, our economy will be back to normal by mid-year. Yes, I heard him say it, so let's see how it turns out.

Your order by age makes sense but ignores usefulness to society. We all interact with others when we buy (not grow) food, organize in families and communities, pay taxes to build roads and defend and protect and treat water to drink and sewage, generate and distribute electricity, maintain internet and phone towers, and much more. This requires a balance between personal freedom and social cooperation. How we do that balance varies, but we've managed so far to avoid extremes, and I hope we can continue to do so. This means in a democracy that voters balance our own perceived private interests with public ones. It also means we must balance our dependence on unquestioned authority, which we learn as little children, with knowledge gained as schooled adults, which requires logic and reasoning, and doesn't always say what we want. It takes courage to see truth, scientific or otherwise, and more courage to base our actions on it, into the wind of the deniers.

As far as us elderly being dry tinder and "ripe for the pickin'", those are the calls of those who are uncomfortable with what I just said. We can counterbalance them even if they are right in general. Each of us can make ourselves "fire-extinguishers" rather than tinder, not ripe for the picking, but rather more useful on the tree, like the bark and limbs rather than the fallen leaves and fruit.

I agree in principle of what you've posted. Twenty-five + years ago, I'd say your ideas are sound, but today is much different. Our younger adults have a much different way of thinking and solving problems. Not the engineer/science minded, they're still using logic. The vast majority of the younger generation uses social media to solve their problems or to find reason to believe one thing or another.

When I first heard about this, I was shocked. I'll share what I heard: The younger generation will find someone they respect - either from reading their posts/writing or being recommended by someone they respect. It could be someone who posts something about diversity in the workplace being the most important thing we need to work on. Or global warming, EV cars, etc? One that person is seen as a guru, everything they say is correct and the follower will believe the guru is correct. He/she will fight anyone who says something contrary to what the guru says. He/she will stop doing their own critical thinking and instead read and listen to the guru and the ones the guru tells them to listen to. It's an easy way to form beliefs without doing much thinking or research. Just listen to your guru.

I've asked many GenZ kids what their belief is and they have very little original thought - what I call lazy thinkers! They will quote their guru(s) and blindly fight for his position. To me, that's pretty scary and I think it's something that's come about with the last generation.

This is why a 16 year old girl will drive up to a suburban BLM rally in her new Toyota RAV4 that mommy and daddy bought for her and write "White Privilege = Black Poverty" on the side of her new car! Yes, this is a true story.

Q:

Should we be compelled to take the vaccine? Either by force of law or loss of access (i.e. cant fly or travel to certain states without the proper papers)?

IMHO No, people should not be compelled to take a vaccine for certainly some unfortunate individuals will have a valid medical reason for not being vaccinated. Yes, some travel access will be limited to those who do not get vaccinated. Having the correct vaccinations are already a requirement for obtaining a visa. I'm not sure if regional boundaries (city, county, state, etc.) within a national boundary can impose visa like restrictions. At the same time, private transportation providers can refuse any passenger for any reason.

Good point! Medical reasons (highly allergetic), religious beliefs, etc - we're in a free country. Though this is also part of the reason why we're having trouble controlling Covid, but it's what our nation was based on.

And no, I would never trade my right for safety against an illness! I think most of us wouldn't either - too many have died to give us this freedom.

It always has been endangered.

Very true, it is just recently in danger of becoming extinct if The People are not paying attention and just cowering in their basements.

This time around, the media has done an incredible job of scaring the daylights out of people. Though it's much worse in the big cities (think Blue). Much, much worse.

It's amazing how true your statement is.

When I was growing up (1970's), we were taught about the importance of liberty! Why our forefathers fought for us to have rights. The sacrifices they made and the risks they took.

I think it's still important to the 40+ crowd. Some of the younger generation too, but there's a lot of them who either don't understand or don't care.

Decisions should have related effects or you never learn. You just keep making the same mistake over and over.

Isn't that the definition of insanity? Or stubborness!

However, how do you feel about people standing up for their right to choose?