Is A Doctor An Engineer Virtually

Everyone hires for the same job; we are all problem solvers.

Sometimes when I'm presented with a problem, I feel like I'm a Dr. because I need all the information in order to solve the problem.

As I see it the major social difference between medical doctors and engineers is education. A medical doctor fresh out of is internship is welcome to treat me, but I wouldn't trust an engineer fresh out of school to program a CNC, or design widget, or in some cases, get my coffee.

I've been out of school more then 20 years and as I look back, I can't help but think the schools need to do more then just provide the engineering tools, but then need to teach the application.

I work in a company so hurting for good engineers they hired about 54 engineers with less then 3 years experience to design our products. When I see what these kids are putting out I don't know weather I should laugh or cry. (mostly I cry). In one case, we have a team of these kids designing a new product. When they got to the field testing stage they found it wouldn't turn the way they would like it to. Why didn't they know this before now? They didn't do the math. What did they decide to do to fix it? They redesigned the entire frame to make it shorter. What would I have done? Remove the travel limiter they put on the steering yoke.

See what I mean?

As an engineer I reckon doctors of medicine are only repair technicians.

They don't design new systems, modify to improve systems or even understand how the brain works, do they?

An engineer should be able to take basic building blocks and create a complex system capable of doing what he/she wants it to do - that to me is one heck of a difference!!

Just because medical doctors work on repairing / tampering with the human body just puts them on a similar level to an advanced mechanic working on a sooped up car!!

An engineer does the creating, from an idea to a finished product, vastly superior in my humble opinion.

Mind you I am a tad biased..... John.

"They don't design new systems, modify to improve systems or even understand how the brain works, do they?"

Maybe they don't exactly know how the brain works, but some doctors actually do design new systems. For example Robert Jarvik designed the Jarvik-7 artificial heart. I'm sure there are many, many similar cases.

The biomedical field is usually populated with "double major" types, i.e., having an engineering degree as well as being an M.D.

I get your point though. The general practice physician that treats everything from broken bones to colds probably doesn't do a lot of original designing, etc.

-John

Hello, though your question is more academic and subjective, all the same it is worth discussing about - especially to delineate the PHILOSOPHY of the ENGINEER.

The ENGINEER's function is to design, device, construct, operate and manage the technological aspects with which the material demands of the society are answered. To do this he/ she draws on the laws of nature as defined by the scientist; on the materials and manpower available about him/ her; and on the basic training and experience gained over the years. The extent to which he/ she draws on the laws of nature depends on the extent to which scientists have uncovered natural phenomena and devised theories from the point of view of application logic; the extent to which he/ she draws on natural resources depends on the extent to which the society views his/ her accomplishments and approves the same; the extent to which training and experience count depends on basic education, types of experiences and a vast store house of recorded empirical knowledge that are called good commercial practice and so on.

Although I may not be the best person to tell about a Doctor, it would not be inappropriate to conclude that, while the Doctor as well as the Engineer are both professionals serving the public, the difference could be on the Philosophies of the professions - The engineer is concerned with the "material demands and needs" of the society, and the Doctor is concerned with Human aspects of the society

Best wishes

Both are professionals doing equal jobs , engineer is step further he can create things which were nonexistence some time ago and it is engineer who has contributed to doctors progress through his breakthroughs , doctors do command greater respect in a society than engineer due to life saving ability and removing pains from our loved ones , I too believe both profession may come together in near future , we had one subject medical electronics in our engineering curriculum which described instruments for medicine use

A lot of good points here. I would hope that they never try to join or "melt together". Both of these "life directions" are not stumbled upon by "losers looking to pass the time and make a buck". Good doctors and good engineers, like good musicians, have it in their soul, they were almost predestined, hard wired at birth to gravitate toward what you are eventually going to be good at.

I think the differences were stated... the doctor troubleshoots and the engineer creates. I think, two virtues make a good doctor and engineer. 1st, the love and passion of the work and desire to learn more and more.

2nd, enough humility to not let pride and arrogance set in. When you think you know it all, you're done learning. A humble but yet very learned man can actually learn something useful from a fool. You know, we must not take ourselves too seriously

I like your phrase "... good engineers.. have it in their soul". The engineers I admire grew up a bit weird, they were good at maths, physics etc, treated english and arts subjects with contempt (although got excellent results when it mattered), were shy (or withdrawn/self focussed) and loved solving problems and understanding how everything works. As they grew older they usually widened their interests and learnt to sculpt, paint, make music, build pizza ovens or do anything else that caught their eye. In general, they're people who love live and get a lot out of it.

As an old bloke (50) I see a lot of new engineers who don't actually LOVE being an engineer. They were good at school, want a secure career, but basically want to step out of engineering and become managers. It's a bit sad really

I always ask young jobseekers "What did you do for your final project?" Some can't remember what they did, some mumble a well rehearsed answer and a few just get excited "Well, I did this.. Then I tried... But I could also do.. If I did it again I'd... someone else tried... " etc. I recommend the later group. ffeJ

Hi to all,

I'm sure I'll "ruffle a few feathers" with my comments, but it's just for discussion. I think the category of 'doctor' is much too broad to assess along side the slightly less broad category of 'engineer', because the issue regards more the level and requirement for invention and innovation than the mere title denotes. Most (a globalization, I know) doctors do no invention and innovation, but merely follow the recommendations of colleagues and pharmaceutical companies when addressing most ailments. Except for those who are truly involved in research, there is little done by medical doctors even from the investigative level. Unfortunately (and I know the issues are made complex by organized medical corporations and by the liability and legal issues which prevail) the term 'practice' medicine has never been more true, where ailments are often treated by the 'lets try this' approach without much real science involved. As a counter point, however, many engineers are not true inventors either, as most tasks are simply following the routines as taught (or experienced) toward a solution / goal. The bottom line is the skill of true 'problem solving' and how that may relate to medicine or design. I am in the product development field now for nearly 38 years, and the greatest lack I see on those 'professionals' around me is the lack of such a skill. As the question of the moment relates to 'engineers' and 'doctors' the root question, I believe, is more, how does each require and involve true problem solving skills.

I didn't sense any "feather ruffling" here. Sounds pretty practical actually. Back to my comments. An engineer uses (or should use) their fundamentals they were taught to design something they believe or hope will accomplish what their client desired.

On projects that REALLY need an engineer, custom projects, an inexperienced engineer will unwittingly make errors and may not even care. The experienced engineer feels quite confident that his FIRST design is RIGHT and WILL work, that's confidence. An in-experienced engineer will design what they think is right, have it reviewed, then follow through to commissioning to gain confidence or learn from mistakes ( gaining wisdom), but the arrogant ones blame someone else....

An engineer becomes successful by getting it right the first time. A doctor on the other hand, finds it more profitable to screw it up the first time, complicate it the second time, infect it the third time, and then take a kick back on the referral. This of course depending on the value of the medical insurance and the patients level of passivity and ignorance. It is a rare profession where greed and the exploitation of ignorance are attributes enough for success; providing of course, it is done at a level of expertise that avoids the overly zealous sharks in the legal pond.

The medical field is in short, the only endeavour where failure enhances the economic returns of the industry. The complete inverse of engineering and science applications.

I can only imagine how the treatment of cancer with carcinogenic chemicals will be viewed in the next century. Perhaps like "bleeding" of centuries past? History has shown that in the medical field, todays "state of the art" often becomes tomorrows Voodoo.

I can not imagine a case in science or engineering where sabotage or wrongful death would enhance profitability.

A little knowledge may be a dangerous thing, but it doesn't compare to the treachery that can occur when "education" is accepted as unchallenged wisdom.

Gavilan

Hi Gavilan,

"A doctor on the other hand, finds it more profitable to screw it up the first time,..."

Sounds like you're really down on the medical profession. Have you had a personal experience that warranted a malpractice suit?

If you're ever faced with a life threatening illness/injury will you call a witch doctor or a board certified M.D.?

"The medical field is in short, the only endeavour where failure enhances the economic returns of the industry. The complete inverse of engineering and science applications."

I suspect, if they were around today, the Wright brothers would argue with you on that point. Their many failures before ultimate success resulted in unimaginable economic returns for multitudes of then present as well as future industries. Same is true for many inventors and/or engineers.

-John

"History has shown that in the medical field, todays "state of the art" often becomes tomorrows Voodoo"

Obviously the same can be said of engineering- Or do you prefer your dirigibles filled with hydrogen?

"Obviously the same can be said of engineering-"

Not so much with engineering as with the medical field. Solid engineering structural techniques can withstand the ravages of centuries. For example, the pyramids, the Great Wall, etc. Even things more modern such as the Golden Gate bridge and others.

Now the Sphinx, the Leaning Tower of Pisa, etc. probably needed a little more forethought.

The thing about engineering is that better designs are usually built upon the backs of previous evolutions. This even applies to medical technology. The "voodoo" aspect arises out of what we do, or don't do to the human body as a conscious choice based on the current assessment of what's best for it. For example "lobotomies", and shock therapies, were thought not so long ago to be a great cure for certain mental diseases. Now we consider the practice as having been downright barbaric. This had nothing to do with engineering technology but how we (medical science) viewed how the brain functioned.

No, I certainly would not prefer hydrogen in my trusty old dirigible. However, "Germany had extensive experience with hydrogen as lifting gas. Hydrogen-related fire accidents had never occurred on civil zeppelins, so the switch from helium to hydrogen did not cause much alarm. Hydrogen also gave the craft about 8% more lift capacity" (from this article from Wiki about the Hindenburg).

By the same token, would you prefer nuclear fuel under the hood of your car? I don't think a nuclear submarine has yet been destroyed by a core meltdown so does that mean it's safe?

-John

Actually, I would prefer H filled! (much superstition exists here)

As hydrogen is approx 1/2 the weight of helium, it offers much better bouyancy; this will translate to far lower frontal area, to lower drag, to better fuel economy...

Hydrogen burns with a nearly colourless flame; review the films again.

The true problem here was the skin & it's doping: nitrocellulose lacquer, filled with red iron oxide, then covered with aluminum powder for reflectivity. Hmm, Thermite held on with cordite, let's blame the hydrogen!

Thank you for your comment, I am well aware of the ther-mite coating theory. My comment was to point out that medicine and engineering both rely on past mistakes to improve present design. You would be considered foolish to prefer a hydrogen filled craft, simply because it is more buoyant, particularly if people are your cargo. Engineers must consider ALL of the variables-Sometimes the best system cannot be composed of the best individual components. Do you still use an asbestos filled hair dryer or pajamas? After all they are much better at preventing fires and burns.

Engineers are routinely required to design systems that are greater than the sum of their individual parts.

As far as reviewing the films: you stated; hydrogen burns colorless, so I submit to you that the old film clearly shows an invisible flame as well as the visible one-please prove me wrong.

You said "You would be considered foolish to prefer a hydrogen filled craft, simply because it is more buoyant, particularly if people are your cargo."

That's certainly true today, but the following quote does emphasize your statement that "medicine and engineering both rely on past mistakes to improve present design."

"Germany had extensive experience with hydrogen as lifting gas. Hydrogen-related fire accidents had never occurred on civil zeppelins, so the switch from helium to hydrogen did not cause much alarm. Hydrogen also gave the craft about 8% more lift capacity" (regarding the LZ 129 Hindenburg).

-John

Let me clarify- When I stated it would be foolish to use hydrogen..., I did not want to suggest that the original design was foolish, or poorly engineered. German airships were 'state of the art' and well worth admiring.

Since we may never know the true cause(s) of the failure, we are forced to shy away from hydrogen. Which is why Met-Life uses helium. (at least I guess they are using helium?)

People will always make mistakes, fools repeat them, govts deny them.

I think these folks made a pretty strong case for such a vehicle.

I think we are more like a veterinarian, most system diagnosis are really hard since we do not have enough information and the "patient" does not say where it hurts, but it says, ouch I do not feel well. We have to test the incomunicative patient for outputs...

This remainds me of my grandfather, who was a veterinarian in a small village. He used to argue with the local medic who had the hardest job. One day he got ill, and when the medic arrived he started to say.

Ouch, it hurts...

Ouch, it hurts...

Ouch, it hurts...

The medic started to say, what is wrong with you?

Ouch, it hurts...

Ouch, it hurts...

Ouch, it hurts...

After a while the medic said: - If you don't tell me what is wrong, how do you want me to cure you?

And my grandfather smiled and answerd:- Told you my job was the hardest.

But it is engineer who has more dificuilty in locating fault , humans(patients) can at least short list the nature of fault(disorder ,ailment) for doctors , even animals show certain nature of behaviour so doctors finds right treatment to cure. artificially built machines by engineer is difficult to repair even by designer himself , machines don`t show or scream for faults and not likely fault occurs for certain cause only, unless engineer is sufficiently experienced to look through his senses , perticularly electronics circuits .If patients too goes to doctor and tells him he is not well but don`t no any clues how he exactly feels , doctors starts asking certain question about how long he feels abnormal , nature of food eating habits , asks for blood ,urine test , and from here doctor starts diagonsis .I too feel doctors over work than engineer because of nature of work they perform and every other case seems emergency and command better respect than an engineer .

I do agree with you vikas, but depending on the complexity of your plant, excuse me "patient" |:o), we also tend to over work.

As in medicine, simple problems, or lets say repetitive issues are easy to diagnose, just from previous experience.

In singular processes, or singular errors, we must also ask the "patient" questions, by monitoring, and analysing the system looking for repetitive patterns.

When the solution is not so "obvious", more tests, more questions to system must be undertaken, and most important, more reflexion and more literature search must be done.

This reminds me of House, an american series about a diagnostic specialist... Maybe from this point of view, singular cases, Engineerign is not so different from Medicine.

Having worked in industrial research and plant technical operations for 30+ years (with an engineering doctorate) and having 4 MDs in the family, I see this in a somewhat different light.

One of the main issues I had earlier on was the lack of respect that many doctors (not my relatives) give to engineers. It has been the medical mindset that unless you have an MD after your name, you are poorly educated no matter what your education level. While there are still many docs with that attitude, it is changing slowly. It occurred, I believe, because of the requirement by the hospitals that the physician have the ultimate authority when it comes to treatment of the patient. [Someone has to, and the engineer does not have the background].

That said, I have known a number of physicians who are in awe of an engineer's abilities in science. That however only occurs when they get to talking at length with you about scientific issues.

Realise also that doctors are often their own worst critics. Like any field of endeavor, there are all levels of expertise, and Pareto's Law would suggest (and many docs would concur) that there are probably only 20% of them that are really well qualified. The rest (and that encompasses the quacks and those in it for the $) shouldnt really be allowed to practice. I guess thats why medical insurance premiums are so high.

A good doctor is a person who understands the human system, how the joints function correctly, how the various pumps and filter systems work, how the fuel is dealt with....I suppose a Doctor is a Human Maintenance Engineer!

Absolutely not! They don't make house calls anymore.

I think that both physicians and biochemists practise a blend of mechanical and chemical engineering specializing in animate bodies or parts thereof.

I have always held my doctors to be the mechanics to which I take my body for checkups and repairs. They have been honoured to be seen in that light.

I think we all realize that this brand of engineering is immensely complex and complicated in a whole host of ways ranging from the communication/interaction/history level to systems' interaction and molecular movement and research and discovery; and is very very special to all our well being. The diagnostic and repair tools at the physician's disposal come from all engineering disciplines, just as those in each of our own specialties do.

Physicians have long earned the appelation of engineer.

Mark

Have you ever gone to the doctor for something, and he excuses himself for a minute and leaves the room. Guess why? He's in the back room checking the Chilton Manual for humans. He can tell your age and brand by the grill work. Then, he comes back into the examination room and makes his diagnosis.

The best medical advice I ever got was NEVER TREAT YOUR DOCTOR AS A GOD!!! That's the fastest way to get dead!!!

Hi, Vermin!

Surely you are not implying that a good engineer never checks the manuals.....?

(Can I at least treat my doctor as a good source of new jokes and a real appreciator of the ones I bring him?)

As far as medical advice is concerned, try this variation on your theme I'd like to offer for an even faster way to get dead.

"Treat GOD as your doctor!" boing!

Mark

You have to excuse me... I've been misdiagnosed a number of doctors until I insist on a referral to a specialist. If I had listened to the advise of my GPs, I would have been up a creek without the proverbial paddle!!!

Hi, Vermin!

I always request...sometimes just over the 'phone...a referral to a specialist if I am worried about something. My physician, over the 30 or so years I have been fortunate to be in his practice, respects my intelligence enough (and knows what a self-realized hypochondriac** I am!) to consent to the referral almost automatically. Same goes for perscription medicines, physio and chiropractic care. I have taken the trouble to make certain that all my professional caregivers/healing arts practitioners know who one another are, and that I expect professional congenialtiy with respect to my health care.

At the same time, I respect his position as a specialist in perhaps the most complex field of medicine in existence: general practice. It is these amazing people who care for us as family physicians and know enough about each specialty to be able to make the diagnoses and referrals and to make the specialists sit up and take notice (and 99% of the time confirm the hypochondriac self-diagnosis!).

Imagine all the poor souls that do not possess your intelligence and just take whatever some hope-denying doctor offers as a final decision as gospel without seeking a second, third, and fourth (and on until they get what they want/need) opinion or referral.

The paddle then definitely ends up their various creeks, both within and without!

Mark

**I always introduce myself over the phone when I call his office, "Hello. This is Mark, your practice hypochondriac!" Gets a giggle and immediate recognition from the office/nursing staff at his clinic, which he shares with another physician I used to date before I married and divorced my pharmacist. Ay Yi Yi Yi!! You think you got problems?

I would suggest using your doctor to render a diagnosis and then studying th Internet to find out if his diagnosis makes sense. One problem a lot of people have is that they dont provide all the data. Example: If I go to a doc he will probably get more info from me than he wants, but never too little. By comparison, getting info from my wife about a malady she has is near impossible.

Having had to diagnose my own medical situation while the doctors in the large NZ Hospital had no idea what was wrong, and had given me the wrong medication, for a condition I did not have, I can understand that the doctors are all too fallible.

I booked myself twice out of Hospital, because I knew if I stayed there, I would go out in a wooden box,and that was not what was destined for me.

Off work some 5 days short of a year, I did the research, to find out what exactly had happened, and why.

After I "recovered", the Medical profession stated I would have to stay out of fluorescent light for 5 years (ridiculous because that lighting type was what the Hospital used), and out of sunlight for 10 years.(Also ridiculous, as it turned out)

Engineering in the body is extremely well designed, even DNA is actually Biological Software, incredibly well-packed and self-repairing, when you understand how it works.

The smaller the structures looked at, the more marvellous they appear to be, and impossible to have "evolved" on their own.

Engineering of all types is so much easier, generally being things larger, and with less variance, easily "measured".

I am well aware of the many advances in Nano-technology.

The difference between living souls and animals is that living souls (people) are Tripartite: Spirit, Soul and Body, Animals are Bipartite: Soul and Body.

There will always be a huge unclosable gap, between Engineers and Doctors....

A good diagnostician is really hard to find and are worth their weight in platinum!

On the other hand, I have known too many animals to think that they do not have a spirit.

"On the other hand, I have known too many animals to think that they do not have a spirit."

This is something I have known for many years. Thanks for putting it into words.

-John

Totally agree.... John.

I would say that most doctors are technicians applying techniques developed by others after diagnosing a situation.

Perhaps some research doctors are exploring new techniques of manipulating tissue. But they still are not really engineers. Why? Because there is no application of mathematics to model a system. It's more of a emperical approach.

But there is the mystique of being a doctor that seems to demand a higher paycheck. Just don't get me started on professional athletes....

This is why I have said that doctors (of medicine) are no more than repair technicians.

Well it boils down to how easy it is to create a 'knowledge base' that can simulate a doctor and possibly take over 80% of his job...

I think it was back in the early 90s they investigated this and found that the diagnosis from a computer programmed with many doctors' knowledge, could provide a better diagnosis of a patient than just one doctor...

It did lack the friendly human appraoch though!!

I wonder why they never tried to program a computer to take over an engineer's job, especially the creative aspect???

John.

"Well it boils down to how easy it is to create a 'knowledge base' that can simulate a doctor and possibly take over 80% of his job..."

They're called "Physician's Assistants" (PA). They do the Doc's job but get paid a whole lot less!

-John