How Do You Feel About No Masks?

I see your point,...

but frankly, I’m not used to a civil response like that... lol

Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, there are some who seem to resort to attacking the person instead of the idea when their ideas are the very strawman they accuse others of creating. It seems to be a common trait amongst those most vocal individuals who identify on a particular side of the political spectrum.

Hmmmm. Do I choose the left or right?

I can't believe you're referencing Frank!!! He was so Responsive to Civil issues like that wonderful Frank L Baum book. You know, the one about OZ and the men made of Tin, Lion and ... uhhhh ... Never Mind!

Made me laugh again!

"and don't call me Frank" just doesn't have the same ... you know!

Yes, I'm serious.

Oh yeah! Empire building and protecting his turf!

Unfortunately, I think that's true. Though he is definitely a bureaucrat. Just one with a political agenda!

I remember early on. I listened to many of his press conference talks. Then I noticed that he flip flopped for no reason. Being a man of science, how could he change his ideas so fast. And he's suppose to be an expert on the subject?

I used an analogy in my business. I one month ago, I felt that Range Rovers should only be leased (sorry, I don't mean to insult Range Rover owners) and one month later, I'm recommending my clients to buy not lease them, one would be very suspicious of my motive. If there was a huge engineering or build change, where they were reliable and inexpensive to own, then it makes sense. However, if my Range Rover guy told me he'd pay me $$$$ extra for helping him get rid of extra inventory, then you would know why I flip flopped.

So in the case of Fauci, he's in the medical field, so he knows about the transmission of a virus and what can be done to keep people from spreading it. As far as I know, Covid isn't transmitted in some new manner, so there should've been a set of rules/guidelines already created - from other virus'.

I hope we find out the truth.

We as a nation need to know if he has ties to the Wuhan lab AND what his agenda is. I think it's very important, because we base our intuition on historical results. For instance, if you're told something that you believe it true, then later find out you were tricked, at least you know what the truth really is. You can base future events on the observations and "hunch" you had. If you never find out and you believe you were told the truth, then your world isn't reality. You'll base future decisions on the lie you were told and believe in.

In the case of Fauci, if he is found have lied to us for his own personal gain, then our hunches were correct. If they clear him and we believe it to be true, then we need to change our belief system, because we made a big error in judging him.

So, lets see what the outcome is.

I'm afraid that if the truth is not to the benefit of the ruling party, we'll never see or hear it. It will go the way of Hunter's laptop. The media won't report it, big tech will suppress it, and the politicians will claim it's Russian disinformation. The U.S. is screwed.

After the ruling party treats it until it unrecognizable and useless, like ‘jo jo the Indian circus boy with a brand new pet’ .. only then can we move on...

What a great movie! Though Jo Jo is an Idiot circus boy ... though he ma be an Indian too ...

I really hope the gov't doesn't bury this one. There's been a lot of damage to our country and it would be very upsetting to find out that it was released from a lab, but more importantly, that one of our leading gov't officials was behind it.

the truth has come out!! have you not read his own emails?

they were public domain and not only state that masks are theater, but that the virus came from the china facility where it was engineered, and fauchi sent our tax dollars there to help create it.

how much more truth do you want to come out??

Has the US yet achieved the level of herd immunity for Covid 19? Nobody knows but it is unlikely. For measles the level required for herd immunity is 95%, for polio it sits around 80%, so it is different for each disease. No country has yet got to the level of herd immunity for Covid (Israel leading the pack with 60% given 1st dose) so the target is not yet defined. The WHO's best guess is 90% but that is not science it is a pure guess based on statistics for similar diseases like Spanish Flu and that happened so long ago that the figures used as the base are suspect.

The vaccination figures for the US (New York Time article today) were 48% with the first dose and 37% fully vaccinated with both doses, but the are large variations across states so the figure for Texas for instance is only 32%. Those figures should be treated with caution. The rates for herd immunity are for the whole population but the statistics for Covid vaccinations are among the vulnerable "adult" population, and the definition of "adult" varies from country to country. The UK last week had adults over 39 but this week it is over 38 years old and this will keep dropping as we vaccinate more of our population. How many people have got immunity from having had the disease is unknown because in some cases there are no symptoms. A guess for the US is around 6%

nice statistics about the different percentages on herd immunity as per type of disease.

I’ll take your word for it, the thoughts I have for COVID and herd immunity is that the strain of this COVID may be evolving that creates changing variables, such as environment. Where in a different region the strain evolves and with the the access ability to any place in the world, it can change the percentages.

I agree with you that the worlds experts, are only giving best guesses with the information they have now. Tomorrow, it may be different.

We may be at herd immunity now. Here's the reason:

1. I just read something that said the US is at 10.2% confirmed Covid cases (of the total pop).

2. 51.1% of our pop has the first dose.

3. 24% of the pop is under 18 years of age. If we consider those who are under 18 as a very low risk category, then 76% of the population is at risk.

4. If 10.2% have an antibody or their body knows how to fight off Covid, then we have 65.8% of the pop at risk.

5. With 51.1% having their first vaccine (drastically lowers the change of getting a bad case of Covid), that leaves 14.7% of the population at risk or 85% herd immunity. When I mention herd immunity, I'm not saying that these people can't get Covid. What I mean is that they will not be as strongly affected. And we have to remember that the vaccine has a 95% effectiveness, so 5% of the people may get Covid.

Flaws in the analysis above:

1. Those who had Covid, but didn't have a positive test would increase the herd immunity number. This could be a very large number.

2. There's an assumption that the vaccinated have not had a positive Covid test. If the number is large enough, then the number decreases.

3. If there's a large number of sub 18 year olds who have been vaccinated, the number decrease.

4. Of the 14.7%, many of these are in a low risk position, so the mortality rate will be lower and we could be much closer to herd immunity.

I believe this is why we should be safe in the US and even CA will be fully open in two weeks. Most of the country has been reopened and most states don't have a mask requirement.

I was hired by a small company and was in a meeting in their conference room. Now, I was taking notes, I normally used a standard No. 2 pencil, and a spare as well as a pen. Well, that day a meeting was called at the last minute, I just brought a pencil, didn't bring a spare.

As luck had it, I broke the lead. But there was a cup of pens and pencils on the conference table, and reach for a pen, and the operations manager literally went 'Karen' all over me. explaining to me that those pens/pencils can't be used or even touched for that matter, as well as receiving a COVID lecture.

Now this happened last summer and the office was not masked up as of yet. everyone in the room was just staring with their mouth open. I expected that it was an outside personal issue with this operations manager.

I took the cup of pens and pencils and put it in the cabinet, and said in the name of keeping a healthy environment, I'm removing the temptation. And I went to my desk, and retrieved my extra pens and pencils. When I returned less then 30 seconds later,... the look on the faces were still shocked on what happened.

That's when you should have pulled out your handy dandy little portable sanitizer wand and told everybody to look away....

Gotcha... Ibought one from Amazon I just figure out how to turn the power down a tad.

‘

Like this?

I would've loved to be at that meeting!

Well, being that wasn’t my first rodeo,... and simultaneously upsetting the snowflakes at el (and you know who you are) by giving them fuel to call or ‘infer’ me as a racist or a misogynist.

I understood that there is a definite difference between Male and Female leaders. And when you realize that and handling the situation as it presents itself.

By doing what I did, she may have been even more upset by basically following her proclamation, I’m sure still got her po’d.

I wonder what would've happened if you took all the pens and pencils (as well as the cup) and put them in front of you. Imagine the look on her face as you told her "Since they're all not usable or even touchable, I'll just keep them for myself ... or would you prefer that I throw them in the trash!"

Well, I pretty much understood or a high % of what she was going through and the time... if I did that, she would have given me my walking papers right there.

I can only speak for myself is all I look for, is consistency and not mood swings..

If she was that concerned, why not require masks during a meeting?

I believe the 6 foot social distancing thing was already in place last summer, so a Zoom meeting would've been even safer for her.

This was a small OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer). and she was going through a tough,... ah,... period.

Also this happened a year ago last May. When politicians were thinking about the best way to control the populous.

Hopefully, those meetings aren't on a "monthly" basis!

I remember the Speaker of the House saying: "Testing, Testing, Testing". Then "Masks, Masks, Masks". Somehow, the media got hold of it and voila! Even thought the WHO said it's not necessary.

What about the next one...?

https://www.sciencealert.com/china-reports-first-known-human-case-of-h10n3-bird-flu

I guess I'll keep my mask ready!

I contracted Covid in March, 2020 and without going to hospital, (That was already a death trap) I recovered only to find that I had symptoms never abfore experienced by me.

Insomnina, severe aversion to food, any food, morning sickness, fatigue, I could go on.

My pulmonoligist and cardoilogist said i was fine.????? That was a welcome surprise.

Anyway, it is NO fun, and I see no relief in sight.

Enjoy your good health.

Wow! With that set of symptoms, you are not "fine", by my way of thinking! It sounds to me like you need a second or third opinion!

Best of luck for a recovery from those symptoms!

You posted march 7 last year that you had already had both vaccine shots, did you get the virus after immunization? Are you losing weight? Hope you're better soon anyway...

March last year, when Lyn was ill with COVID, none of the vaccines were approved for authorization. I'm not sure clinical trials had even started by then. Please pay more attention to details, they matter.

Well for one thing Lyn is still ill with covid, so he believes, and for another I wasn't talking to you....I might add that sometimes the details don't matter...it's the reality that matters....

I am so sorry for you. I agree with dkwarner that you are not fine.

You probably already realize that your cardiologist and pulmonologist are only saying that what ails you is not in their expertise. An epidemiologist won't be able to treat you but you or one of your physicians might try contacting one about similar patients and where they may have gotten helpful treatments.

I wish you all the best.

??? What vaccine was available in Mar of 2020?

Oh, I meant this year...I was taken aback a bit as I don't remember him having said he had contracted covid...He must have had one of the first cases in the US...

That is among the most illiterate and deranged posts I have ever seen.

I am highly skeptical of that web site. Here is their FAQ on the differences between this site's adverse vaccine data and the HHS data:

"Is your Data exactly the same as HHS Data? Do you edit or correct it?

We do not change, modify or vet data. We take the downloads, upload them to our server and put a different face on them so they are easier to browse and get quick accurate info from. There are mistakes in the data (impossible dates are usually the most obvious), clearly, but we leave it as we get it. In the OpenVAERS DATA section if there are discrepancies between VAERS.HHS.gov and our site this is due to the fact that they change data throughout the timeframe (31 years) weekly, but we only update the full dataset yearly." If they update only yearly and COVID-19 vaccines have not been available for even one year, how can this be usable?

Wow, very interesting!

I hope we get to the truth. 90 days, right?

Yesterday, my company finally permits those who choose to disclose their vaccination information the privilege to not wear a mask indoors. If you do not wish to disclose that information you are required to continue wearing a mask.

Something about this just doesn't sit well with me.

It does have an Orwellian sound to it...

Let's break down the logic behind their rule.

1. If you are vaccinated, then you don't have to wear a mask, because you won't infect others.

2. #1 is true, because masks protect others, not the person wearing the mask.

3. If you choose not to disclose your vaccination info, then we consider you unvaccinated.

4. The unvaccinated can only spread Covid to other unvaccinated, since a vaccinated person can't catch Covid.

5. Therefore, unvaccinated people must wear a mask, to prevent them from spreading Covid amongst themselves.

The logic is flawed for a few reasons.

1. Vaccinated people still have about 1/20 chance of catching Covid (95% effective).

2. The assumption that vaccinated people can't spread Covid is not proven.

3. Anyone, whether vaccinated or not can spread Covid.

Or, what's most likely going on - let's put pressure on the unvaccinated, by making them outcasts and forcing them to wear masks.

Yes. Exactly.

Plus, we have just created the precedent where the company now has private medical information about its employees. Sure, it's just "vaccination information", what's the big deal?

Sounds like a can of worms! I wonder how they get around HIPAA regulations? If you are not wearing a mask, then you're vaccinated. Your health situation isn't private anymore.

I believe we will see a legal challenge to this soon. My company is by no means the only one doing this.

Personally, I don't care whether people know if I'm vaccinated or not. And I've openly shared other parts of my medical history like my benign brain tumor and such. It is the principle of the matter that bothers me.

In CA, we have a lot of sue happy people. We also still have a mask mandate (for indoor public places and workplaces). In 12 days, it goes away. So far, I haven't heard anything about mask rules at my office. And the stores still have mask rules posted and marks on the ground (6 foot social distancing).

Early on, I let people know my feeling about the vaccine. I quickly learned that it either causes an argument or a pat on the back. Since many of these people are customers, I try to avoid the topic. Similar to politics, religion and race. People are far too polarized on these topics.

Yup.

It interesting, about a week and half ago, we had dinner with a group of friends we haven’t seen in a long time about. They were very liberal, or at least they used to be...

Two of them work in a cheese factory, (they were recently married in September), and the other was the older sister of the newlywed bride.

And the subject of vaccinations came up, we’re had getting ours back in April. And all three said they were getting vaccinated, with the reason, they don’t know, and no one does know the long term effects... and they like to have kids.

I was surprised and rather impressed and there’s a chance to break away, because the girls mother which I also knew, harked the liberal line like the puppets similar to some of the members here.

Need a correction on third paragraph...

And all three said they were getting vaccinated, with the reason,

it shou,d state.

And all three said they weren’t getting vaccinated, with the reason,..,

Yes, that makes more sense. Not getting vaccinated, because they don't know the long term effects.

As compared with the effects of the disease itself?

To a certain degree, yes and no.

yes, as in where I don’t think it’s the disease itself that’s deadly to them, but is more of the trigger for people with with compromised immune systems, age, and over all poor health.

And the reasoning they’re using is they don’t know what will be the long term effects, especially with the ‘experts’ varying and changing opinions.

And no, there will be push back from the people that do fall in the high risk, that they are risking others health. Are they selfish?, possibly, it could have been handled a lot better. But like global warming, it was politicized, which makes substance valueless.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

I too see both sides of the argument. I am trying my best to get in the middle of it. I guess it's mostly because I don't know. I think it's okay to admit it.

Good luck with trying to stay neutral. Too many people only wants to heard that your ‘opinion’ matches their own.

It shouldn’t be, but CR4 members is a great example of that.

It’s where by Challenging the herd mentality is good.

I know what you mean. I learned a lot about biting my tongue in the four years I was a councilman. And hopefully I learned a little about diplomacy, though some of my posts aren't very diplomatic.

For me, I truly don't have an opinion, due to my lack of expertise and I haven't spent the time to research it enough. Also, as important an issues as it is, I feel my time is better spent on other things. I feel this way, because there's too much bad data out there and too many people are stating opinions as facts. I guess I could spend a lot of time trying to decipher fact from fiction, but I have to keep my business afloat. Each transaction is taking at least 3-5 times the normal effort and there's so much clean up, due to poor execution from clerks.

No, the context seemed wrong. When he corrected his statement, it now makes sense. Not a judgement on my part - I've long since stepped off the soapbox, when it comes to vaccines. Now I just add information on both sides of the argument.

That is a classic example of the logical fallacy known as a straw man fallacy.

Not if it’s an opinion... or in your view, the matter is closed and not to be challenged or discussed.

An opinion and not a strawman fallacy conclusion what you jumped to, and that how I see it...

A straw man fallacy requires the person to overstate the other person's position or to take something out of context to prove a point. In other words, we call it twisting the facts.

Correct?

Yes. You should recognize that I am just identifying why you are correct in saying;

"The logic is flawed for a few reasons."

You have presented flawed logic, only to then take it apart. You have presented a strawman argument.

As for where you overstated, BSR did not provide any explanation for his companies mask rule. They did not provide one to him or BSR forgot to tell us. Thus you provided a flawed explanation out of nothing, an overstatement.

This is what we were told (follow the CDC regardless of how stupid it is because we will be less likely to be sued): (redacted email)

Dear xxxxxxxx employees,

As a follow up to the Corporate communication sent earlier today, I felt it important to make it crystal clear how this impacts the xxxxxxxxx site. It is important to note the following:

1.) This update does not change our Return to On-Site work plan, which will continue to be executed in various waves.

2.) Policy changes are effective as of today, June 1st.

3.) Fully vaccinated employees who choose not to wear a face mask on site MUST FIRST enter their vaccine information in the Vaccine Record System.

4.) The daily checklist is still to be followed.

5.) At this time the fitness center, showers, ice machines, drinking fountains and similar communal use items will remain closed. We will continue to monitor the situation and bring these resources back on-line as soon as we can safely do so.

6.) The meeting size limit of 25 still remains in effect.

7.) With new corporate direction, we will stop COVID audits and reviewing processes for close contact exceptions. The CDC guidance given will govern all work processes.

As the communication from corporate indicated this is a promising step in the right direction! I appreciate everyone’s support as we work through these changes.

Here is a link to FAQs if you would like to review the newly revised document.

If there are any further questions, please do not hesitate to reach out to your functional manager, xxxxx, or myself at Ask_xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.com.

Thank you for the redacted email. You have proven exactly my point about Autobroker making a strawman argument. This email states nothing about the reasoning for not wearing a mask, that strawman attribute was an exaggeration. The email states nothing about any pathogen transmission methods, another strawman attribute to burn. Lastly, unless you independently of the public forum forwarded this email to Autobroker, all of his proposed reasons were strawmen attributes to burn.

All of the logical fallacies are very tempting methods for trying to make a point. They frequently abound in advertising. Writing without logical fallacies is difficult. Often professional editing by a third party looking for logical fallacies are needed for critical documents and presentations. Autobroker wasn't trying to deceive, he was having fun and trying to amuse us. Saying his argument was an opinion was pure unsupported deception.

An inference is not necessarily the same thing as an exaggeration. We have to know how to read between the lines.

My post above was the only sharing of this information. I have not PM'ed this information to anyone.

I'll change my statement. Your company is using logic - follow CDC to keep from being sued.

The CDC (who they follow) isn't using logic.

Then again, neither have many others when it comes to Covid rules and mandates.

We're still here with a mask mandate (in CA), while most of the US is fully opened up. People here in LA are flooding to Vegas for a "good time". Even though they "officially" re-opened on Jun 1st, people took advantage of the Memorial Day holiday. I heard there was a lot of traffic going and coming back.

Glad I stayed here at home.

I can tell that you like to nit pick and argue. It's your choice, but it makes you unwelcome here.

Please move on to a different thread.

Thank you.

I just saw your link and I opened it. Here's the definition in your link: A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.

The words "extreme way" are in the definition. Next this person "then attacks the extreme distortion".

I have to say there's an exaggeration in your claim that I attacked the original statement in an extreme way. Or maybe we just disagree on what "extreme" really means. Maybe you can help me understand what I'm missing?

You may have not been able to read his mind and then hurt his feelings... that really sets him off.

One of the toughest things I did was sit on my town council for four years. Our town was divided into five regions and each one had it's own agenda. The gorgeous ranch homes, the tract homes, the homes near the lake, downtown (business and truck stops) and the rural valley. Very diverse financially as well as politically. We got into a lot of heated arguments and I learned very quickly that arguing from a point of extremes isn't good - we were all relatively bright people and when one of us argued from an extreme point ... well, that was the end of the argument.

Those four years has not only made me a better person (I believe it has), because I try my best to see the other person's point of view. I also have little tolerance for people unnecessarily attacking others. Unfortunately, most do it to feel superior, which is a shame, because they are usually very smart and they don't need to stoop down to that level.

I sure hope I didn't hurt his feelings. I was just making a point about what I see as a bad company policy - something that doesn't make any logical sense to me and it's based on someone's idea of what is right and wrong.

If you don’t get a PM from him lashing into why you set him off on a totally different subject that was never even discussed, then you’re ok.

I'm starting another post, because it's not exactly what this topic is about. The Indian strain of Covid hit a port in China and they're under lock down. The Chinese vaccine isn't effective against this very contagious strain! Here we go again!

Is that strain different than the new strain found in Europe a few months back?

Yes, it's the Delta strain from India. I heard it's very contagious and there are a lot of asymptomatic cases - they're spreaders.

With Covid, Companies are changing the AHU with Food Processing building they design. Which is long overdue for not so much for employee comfort, but at least bring it to a more tolerant level.

I know it’s only a graphic representation for describing it, but that UV lights should be further up stream.

Solar Eagle touch on some of his posts with this.

There's a commercial out about a building safety standard. Let me look it up.

Here we go. It's the Well safety seal. A sticker you put on your door, so people know the building is healthy. I see the commercial almost every morning - yes, I watch the same channel M-F.

Look for the Well safety seal outside and feel safe going inside. That's their motto. What I find incredible is that we never had this before.

When Lady Gaga says her line, some could take it completely wrong "... and feel safe going inside". Oh my!