How Do You Feel About No Masks?

It might be healthy as of the day the seal was applied, but what would ever be guaranteed the day after?

Rigorous testing. That's what they claim in their commercial.

Though I don't think the sticker would be removed from the door (if they stopped their safe procedures), so you bring up a good point.

Right. And of course it wouldn't be long before counterfeit stickers would be common, So I would have zero faith in them.

I have a feeling you're correct. There would have to be an enforcement group, which might happen, but we're so early in the game, I think there will be a lot of uncertainty for a while.

As discovery is presenting itself, it appears the same with the COVID vaccination cards

I heard someone talking about this a few weeks ago. Probably will happen, which is sad, because those who choose to not vaccinate should stand tall and refuse to give in to the vaxers and their cards.

Also, I for one don't want to be asked for a vaccination card when I go somewhere. It's against the privacy of my health records. If I choose to show it, that's a different story, but to be required ... I don't like it.

I have enough trouble remembering to grab my phone, wallet, car keys, house keys, office keys and mask. Too much stuff - life needs to be simpler, not more complex!

Behind a mask, all faces are pretty. And other imaginings even prettier still. So what's the problem with masks?

--ξ

Sweden should be a thousand times worse than everywhere else if the craziness of the past 18 months were justified.
It's a story in four charts.
Here goes:

They're not wearing masks in Sweden, by the way, but you probably knew that.
Now, back in the United States:
Looks like they're planning to bring back plenty of the craziness in the schools this fall.

Thanks for the data.

I was wondering how Sweden was doing. They may be on to something - let nature take it's course.

My bet would be that the 40% vaccinated are the ones with compromised immune systems and the elderly. It would be interesting to see some data on it.

For clarity, I'll make a statement about Sweden and their approach to Covid.

I thought their approach was really sound. Let their population reach herd immunity and let the economy continue on until the hospitals become overwhelmed. Way back when we first started hearing about Covid in the US (Jan 2020), we soon had a game plan - flatten the curve. If our hospitals became overwhelmed, we'd close down parts of the economy. Then something happened and we didn't wait for the first part and we just started closing things down. Next, we hear things like "every life matters". It sounds great, but if we went through life with this philosophy, we'd give up risky things - even up to the point of driving our cars on the freeway or flying in an airplane. Stay safe and close our streets to cars and walk everywhere. No weapons, except for the police and military. No alcohol or tobacco. I think you get the picture.

I really hope the numbers stay down in Sweden. And if they do, I hope our media jumps on the story and we follow suit. The new rule should be - let people choose and reopen everything without masks - let them get sick and as long as our hospitals are okay, it'll be okay. Personal responsibility! We'll reach herd immunity in a different manner!

Also, it'll help heal the divide in our nation. Anti vaxers can do what they want to and vaxers can do what they want. Consider it like smokers - those who want to smoke can.

Sweden should be

a thousand times worse than everywhere else if the craziness of the past 18 months were justified.
It's a story in four charts.
Here goes:

They're not wearing masks in Sweden, by the way, but you probably knew that.
Now, back in the United States:
Looks like they're planning to bring back plenty of the craziness in the schools this fall.

Déjà vu all over again.

It'll be interesting to see if they got it right.

I have a question for you - it's a two part question.

1. Do you believe that Sweden will have a spike in Covid cases?

2. If they don't, would it change your mind about how the rest of the world has approached the problem? If not, why?

1. Considering the percentage of vaccinated people I would imagine that if they do have a spike it's likely to be small in comparison to other countries.

Here in the US, as well as other places, we're noticing that a large number of new cases are with vaccinated people. There is a theory (unsubstantiated as far as I know) that the Delta Variant is created by combining the vaccine with the SARS2/COVID19 antibodies or with the virus while still in the host. They then "shed" the new and improved variant.

2. If they don't have a substantial spike then maybe the rest of the world should take a closer look at how they are handling this threat. I think that we are too late to change our approach now. This data could however aid us in the future.

We need to look at it from a different angle. Many governments have been forcing their populations to (voluntarily) get vaccinated thus making the vaccine seem "EVIL" (because anything that is forced on us by a government is bad). Some countries are making the vaccine a mandatory thing while calling it voluntary. They are basically making it so that those who don't take it, for whatever reason, can't leave their homes.

Now suppose these governments do an about face and say "LOOK AT SWEDEN-LETS DO WHAT THEY'RE DOING!!!". What little faith that we have left in our leaders will be lost.

Please do your own investigating, but I want to give you a starting point. This article was brought up on this site - I read it and it points to your #1 above. https://www.globalresearch.ca/dr-robert-malone-inventor-mrna-technology-signals-worst-case-scenario-about-covid-19-vaccines/5751798

Some have said that this guy can't be trusted. Others say he has a fantastic grasp of the potential danger of mRNA.

Your last paragraph ... The MSM can spin anything - same with our politicians. If we did an about face, I think they'd spin it and the general public would be on board. The about face would actually be something that people are looking forward to. We're going back to normal and as long as we don't overwhelm our hospitals, we'll continue. The final message will be "Let's all celebrate - the Covid crisis is over!!!"

The MSM can even provide mask burning party locations. People will be dancing in the streets!

Yes, I believe Sweden will have a new set of COVID infection spikes. (They obviously have several already.) I hope my belief that they will be less than earlier spikes is true but with the virulence of the Delta variant, I won't be surprised if it is worse.

Your second set of questions puzzles me. Real data has always steered my mind, not logical fallacies. I'm also certain that you do not know the present status of my mind on anything, let alone something as complex as how the world has responded to this pandemic.

Let me rephrase. If data shows that Sweden doesn't have a substantial spike in the next 30 days (that's pretty definite), then would you feel that they got it right (their herd immunity approach)?

If they don't show a spike, do you think that we did approached this correctly and if not, what should've changed.

I do want to hear your response. If you'd like mine, I'll gladly share it.

I gave you a GA vote. I may not agree with some of the things you write, but your answer is logical and is based on your belief and the facts from your research.

I'll respond to your answers - please understand that my beliefs are based on my research.

1. I think the US could benefit from the Swedish approach. The MSM has done a lot of damage and there are too many people who believe what they see/read from the MSM. I feel it's strange that educated people hear something, then weeks/months later, they're told another, yet they don't ask the question why is it different now? But that's another discussion! Anyway, I do think it would be a good policy in the US.

2. I don't agree with this, because here in California, we're enjoying the outdoors this summer, yet Delta is gaining strength. I've seen more people wearing masks while walking in town and the majority of people are wearing masks at indoor public places (in LA County). I think Sweden should see the same spike, though so far they haven't.

3. I agree that vaccinations are another way to bring herd immunity to a population. I also feel that herd immunity in addition to keeping the susceptible out of risky situations is key, whether immunized or not, is the key to us beating this.

I agree that the US mishandled this pandemic, but we continue mishandling things. We get mixed messages between state and federal officials. Our gov't flip flops without realizing the damage it does to their credibility. The economy is booming in some areas and falling apart in others. We keep throwing money at the wrong places and our debt is out of control. Plus, we still have about 1/2% our our population being infected daily - and we're almost a year and a half into this thing. Yes, we mishandled it!

Today, I was able to read posts from one of my threads that was closed - due to people not being civil. It's a shame, because we're here to help each other, not continue fighting. I see no problem for people to disagree in a civil manner. I learn from others here, even when my beliefs aren't in alignment with theirs. Or, I gather new data. And I see things from their point of view. I hope others receive the same positive input as I do.

I'd like to add one more thing. Someone made an observation that the gov't continues to "change it's mind" or flip-flop. He cited the "new" concept that vaccinated people need to wear masks, because they could be asymptomatic, yet they have the virus inside them. Why do I have a concern about this. Here's my thought process.

1. We were told that once vaccinated, we wouldn't need to wear a mask.

2. We were told that the non-vaccinated people are the cause of the spread, so each of us needs to be vaccinated.

3. We were told that the two mRNA vaccines are 95% or higher effectiveness.

4. We were told that the mRNA vaccines require two doses for full effectiveness.

Then things changed again.

We're now told to wear a mask, even if vaccinated. We're told that we can be a spreader of Covid, even if vaccinated. We're told that we need to wear a mask indoors, however we can sit next to a stranger at a bar and have dinner - neither party with a mask on. And we can eat snacks and drink on a plane, with a stranger sitting elbow to elbow - wouldn't the spittle from someone be able to get on my bag of chips or on my cup? Yet it's one of the safest places? And now we'll need continuous boosters, because the efficacy drops in a few short months?

Why didn't the CDC or Fauci tell us that we'll be stuck in masks for at least another year, even if everyone is vaccinated? I remember math class pretty well and 95% means that 1/20 (on average) will get sick - so if they're sick, why did they tell everyone that once vaccinated, you're safe and you can now go about life pre-pandemic?

Okay, I have to go to the post office. I'm venting, because I think it sets a bad precedence when our officials tell us stories and change direction on a whim, remember that they're telling us it's because the data changed, but we already knew what the vaccine efficacy was, so what changed? Please don't tell me that the experts didn't know anything about the 5% - how they would be affected. They did run a trial to get these numbers, right?

Waiting for someone to help me understand what I'm missing.

I disagree that the officials are changing direction "on a whim." Instead, they are changing their advice on the basis of new information. Your characterization is deeply confused, perhaps even dishonest.

Some people will follow a expert without question who’s constantly flip/flopping, while others would question it.

"Flip/flopping" is an inaccurate description. However, I do agree that changes of advice could be explained better.

For example, "last month the virus seemed to be coming under control, so masks were no longer needed for vaccinated persons; but because of the delta variant, that is no longer true."

Once again, the target is moving, and thus the best advice must move, too.

The people criticizing Fauci over this are just plain sociopaths, period.

That’s the problem, the best advice turns out to be the worse advice.

As far as the delta variant, then comes the lambda lambda variant… and after you go through the Greek alphabet, flip flopping experts…. When does one say when? And try a new approach? What new a approach one may ask,… Ask an expert, they’ll tell you.

the point I’m trying to get across, I ran into a incompetent engineer, who would frame his blunders as “a learning experience’, I got tire of hearing that, which was quite often (and fixing his blunders) that I asked him, “so tell me, when are you going to start to apply what you learned and actually become an effective engineer”.

There comes a time, when one realizes, this incompetent engineer has peaked, and will never become competent.

Illiteracy does not serve you well. But maybe it serves you right.

Your response is typical from you and with that, Arrogance may not serve you well, but it may serve you right as a defense your opinions. Which is dishonest in its self.

And flip flopping is an accurate term for the display of handling from the experts handling.

Once again personal attacks are begetting more personal attacks.

It is nice when the correct answer to any question stays the same. But that is an unrealistic desire with any novel occurrence, particularly a novel occurrence that mutates.

People who believe nothing ever changes are naive fools.

People who proclaim nothing ever changes are a$$h0le$.

I'll follow your logic on this. Yes, it is a novel occurrence. Mutations are unknown and the playing field changes with each one. More contagious, more deadly, faster to take hold, etc. However, it's still a Covid virus and we do know quite a bit about the way it works.

I agree that fine tuning to each variant is required (at least in the efficacy of the vaccine). I also agree that the variants that are more contagious need to be approached with a different method. So yes, the protocol can change and should, but the base plan, the foundation - that should remain.

Our foundation is still a mess. We've been in this for nearly a year and a half and we're still trying to form it. That's a big problem.

On the same note, I applaud Sweden for their approach. They formed the core solution and stuck with it. They adapted for data (slow down the economy to slow the spread), but the idea was simple - to reach herd immunity and to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed.

Our core has changed. Remember "flatten the curve", "testing, testing, testing", "masks, masks, masks", "every life matters" and "do your part".

Once again personal attacks are begetting more personal attacks.

where you remain silent. It appears that you just have an axe to grind.

try addressing the root of the problem where the personal attack actually started. Or are you trying to shut this thread down too, with your own personal attacks.

where you remain silent. It appears that you just have an axe to grind.

I have tried to avoid criticism, but your posts would have considerably more credibility if you used correct English. If English is not your first language, then disregard this post.

I have the same question. Delta, Lambda, etc. More variants are coming - at least my life experiences tell me they will.

Here's something to consider - by the way, your incompetent engineer example hit home; I don't believe that Dr Fauci is incompetent - my gut feeling. I think he's very competent, but he has some sort of agenda. I've heard theories and they may be correct. Some have said he couldn't tell the truth, because our last POTUS made him. Though those theories are not far fetched, I feel better going by data and facts.

Fact: Dr Fauci is one of our nations leading virologists

Fact: A leading virologist should be working with the pharma's - not so much as creating a vaccine, but knowing both the positive and negatives.

Fact: 95% efficacy is simply 19 success vs 1 failure.

Knowing these things, there's certainly a disconnect in the advice Fauci has given vs what a leading virologist would give.

If 1/20 or 1/2 Million people in LA County or 16.4 Million people (if all are vaccinated) in the US can catch Covid, then the pandemic is still a reality.

I don't watch the MSM very often, but I hear it from many of the people I interact with. Not one has told me that Dr Fauci stated that 16.4M US vaccinated people are at risk.

I'll take back what I said about Flip Flopping and change it to deception. Yes, if he was honest and forthcoming, some might have thought twice about being vaccinated. Is there a risk of being vaccinated? Of course, though it's a very small risk, one still exists. However, it is deceptive to hold back information on what happened to the ones who got sick in the clinical trial. And also, why haven't any of the vaccines been fully approved? Or why can't our children get vaccinated?

You are coming to the realization of what many epidemiologists, including Dr. Fauci, have been saying for quite a while. COVID-19 is here to stay.

Most likely this contagion will mutate to a less lethal variant and/or people's immunity systems will render this to being just one of those diseases out there giving us grief. Tuberculosis rates are better than the sanatorium days of just over a century ago. The poliovirus still appears from time to time.

Humanity will endure through this but sometimes it will be worse than unpleasant.

I really thought we'd get a handle on this and our pre-Covid lives would be back soon. I'm still hopeful, but with the current numbers from the Delta variant, I'm feeling less hopeful.

There is one very bright spot; even though the infection rates are high, the death rates are low.

I wonder if anyone has the mortality rates from Delta (US) and how they compare to a normal flu? This would be good to know.

That's good data. Not good in the sense of being good, but good to know.

Today, I met a client in Riverside County. No masks required indoors if vaccinated! 75% of customers were maskless. 90% of employees were masked.

After meeting my client, I went to dinner. 1/2 the customers were wearing masks as they entered the business. 100% of employees were masked. Back in good old LA County now and wearing a mask is mandatory if indoors OR at an outdoor event with 10,000 people or more. I was wondering how would someone at a Dodgers game know when the crowd his 10,000. For instance, after the 7th inning stretch, most people go home. So if you stayed, who would tell you that the attendance is not under 10,000?

I pulled this off the LA County site for outdoors events with over 10,000 people. Don't laugh too hard! "People can take their masks off when they’re eating or drinking, but have to promptly put them back on when they’re done, according to the updated health officer order." If I understand this correctly, you can pull your mask down to take a bite of your Dodger Dog, but after you've taken the bite, do you pull your mask back up as you chew and swallow; do you chew with your mask down and pull it up to swallow; or do you keep the mask down during the entire process and pull it up after you've swallowed? If you take a sip of beer, do you put your mask back up as soon as your mouth is not longer touching the cup or do you wait until you've swallowed the beer?

These are very confusing times indeed!

I was really hoping that with the vaccines we could get back to 'normal'. Oh, well.

For that to work, people have to take them, you know.

The vaccines must not work because we're told to wear masks even when we've been fully vaccinated, you know.

I presume that comment was satire/tongue-in-cheek. An indication to that effect (emoji or...) would have been appropriate.

Otherwise, I STRONGLY disagree!

I'm not saying that the vaccines don't work, our leaders are implying that by requiring masks even if you are vaccinated.

So you disagree with the comment that our leaders are implying that the vaccines don't work? I understand what you are saying about vaccine effectiveness This one helps but it is not nearly as effective as vaccines for other diseases. It's a work in progress. Just like our typical flu vaccine which is based on a best guess for the coming year's influenza strain.

When are we going to rip off the Band-Aid? Are we going to wear masks for the rest of our lives? Will the world ever hold China accountable for this whole debacle?

Please check your facts! The standard Flu vaccine that's been in use for years has had (as I understand it) an effectiveness in the vicinity of 50%, while both the Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines have effectiveness well above 90%. Unless I'm mistaken, those are the highest effectiveness values ever seen in a vaccine, so far.

We may well be using masks for a long time, as long as so many idiots refuse to protect themselves and those around them...

You have a basic misunderstanding of vaccines and immunology. Many vaccines require maintenance shots for effective protection. One well-known example is the tetanus vaccine, a trusted vaccine known to work well. However, unless you have gotten a tetanus vaccination in the past ten years you are no longer protected from jaundice.

That does not follow at all, as has already been explained.

The vaccines were never claimed to be 100% effective, as further confirmed by the breakthrough cases. Some persons are not eligible to receive the vaccines yet, most notably children. Masking protects other people more than the wearers, with some protection for them, too. Responsible persons use the methods that help to protect against the virus: vaccinating, masking, distancing. Sociopaths don't care.

I'm not happy with the latest mask mandates. Get vaccinate and you don't have to wear a mask.

That has already been explained. Unfortunately, hopeless confusion is hard to break.

This chart from Science Digest VERY clearly shows that the vaccines DO WORK!

Here's another proof that masks do work, and since it was done in Bangladesh, it has nothing to do with "our leaders":

https://www.livescience.com/randomized-trial-shows-surgical-masks-work-curbing-covid.html?utm_source=SmartBrief&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=368B3745-DDE0-4A69-A2E8-62503D85375D&utm_content=BBF0C01E-353C-49F5-BD67-B295627E8C6B&utm_term=edbb7357-a0a1-400f-bc21-2f593a8b5007

Yes, that's what I'm running into. I was hoping that we would be able to beat this thing - it's just going to take time.

That was predictable from the unset if you look at the flu or the common cold.

What was detrimental to fighting it, is the inconsistently way on how to deal with it.

They just didn’t know, and still don’t, but they’ll eventually get it right.

I think that's the problem with our Covid response. We have an expert virologist who changes his mind far too often - he's an expert in his field, right?

There are many who blindly believe what he says and they don't question (ask why would an expert change his mind) him. If he's flip flopping so much, then in my book he's not an expert. So, why is this country accepting his advice? I don't get it.

Common sense says that an expert knows a lot about his field. If someone knows a lot about their field, they will be able to properly analyze the situation. Covid type viruses aren't new and we do have quite a bit of data on the subject. And those who say that Covid 19 has never been seen, so we're in the learning stage? Come on! In 2021, Toyota came out with a new Venza. Was there an Venza in 2021? No. Was there a Venza prior to 2021? Yes. If you asked me some questions about the Venza today, would I be able to give you an answer? Of course! I had delivered Venza's when they were last built (up to '15), so I'm familiar with the last generation. I've also delivered plenty of Toyota's, so I have expectations. I've also delivered plenty of hybrids, so I'm familiar with the technology. Finally, I've delivered some new 2021 Venza's, so I know the current generation. As an expert in the field, I use my previous experience with current experience and input from clients to properly analyze the vehicle.

I'm not expecting perfection from Dr Fauci. I understand there are unknowns, but (and it's a big BUT) he has made some terrible recommendations in the past year and he had not only caused confusion, but he's left many of us with the feeling we can't trust what he says. To me, that's the biggest problem we face.

Read post #224!

GA! I haven't seen "flip-flopping". What I've seen is adapting to changing conditions.

For example, during the Trump administration, Dr. Fauci clearly was unable to speak the whole truth, because Trump wouldn't let him. Once Trump was gone, Fauci was allowed to tell the whole story. Since then, the Delta variant, together with new understanding of many aspects of the science of Covid, changed things again.

I got my vaccinations back in January and February, and I hate wearing a mask, especially in hot weather like we've been having, but I hate getting sick even more, so I'll continue to wear a mask when near other people.

I am not privy to what happened in the White House, so I can only speculate, which I won't do here.

I will say that there's a huge flaw in Dr Fauci's vaccine push. And please note that I'm not saying that vaccines are bad - on the contrary, I feel they're a necessity to get things back to normal ... or as close as we can.

As the leading virologist in the country, we can assume he's been working closely with the vaccine makers. He should have data on the 5% or so who the vaccine failed to provide protection. It may seem like a small number, but it's a significant number to those "Every life matters" people. 1 in 20 or 5 in 100 or 500,000 in LA County. Hmmm, 1/2 million people in the county I live. Or 8 vaccinated people in my office can get sick? If this was known (and it was), why did we go from shut down and colored county (a CA thing) to wide open - have fun - don't worry about a thing if you're vaccinated mode?

I did make this thread a couple months ago, because I felt we shouldn't have been held back so long and then go full throttle.

Dr Fauci, told us that vaccines are safe and we don't have to worry - we can go back to normal life. Yes, that was during the current administration, so we can't blame the previous administration for that. And I'm not pointing a finger at either administration; I'm pointing the finger at Dr Fauci.

Think about this for just a minute. I think it'll bring some clarity as well as you'll see there's no dishonesty in my post. Though I am very disappointed and I feel tricked by our politicians and Dr Fauci.

All of us knew that the mRNA vaccines were 95% or so effective.

"They" didn't tell us what happened to the other 5%. Did those people wind up in the hospital, were put on a ventilator, have permanent issues, die??? We weren't told any of this, but think about what we were told - the vaccines are safe, it'll prevent you from spreading Covid (doing my part), you won't wind up in the hospital and certainly won't die from Covid - you'll be free of the restraints we've put on you and we can open everything back up, so everyone needs to be vaccinated.

Now we're finding out the truth. Months after a vaccination, the efficacy drops off - much less with the Moderna vaccine. It would've been great to know this before choosing which one to get. Vaccinated people are getting sick and they're now spreaders of Covid. And people are still dying. The promise of the vaccine being a miracle cure ... it was too good to be true.

I believe these thing were known during the trials. If they weren't then the trials weren't done right. I know a little about clinical trials - I was an investor of biotechs and I studied the process and what was necessary to get a drug to market. If they were able to come up with 95% efficacy, then they know what happened to the 5% who got sick.

I don't understand your point here.

Are you saying that nothing should be done until we know every possible outcome from virus versus vaccine? That is an impossibility with a novel virus.

Maybe you are just lamenting that some approaches taken by the masses to this pandemic will be less effective than others. We may even find a few approaches taken have unforeseen consequences that ultimately terminate that approach. This is a reasonable lament. It is also the way life goes. Nobody knows precisely what the future will bring. Nonetheless, doing nothing is just surrendering.

My post does make it sound that way, but it was a directed toward Dr Fauci and what I call his deceptive approach.

I am in 100% agreement with bringing the vaccine to "market" when they did. Covid was out of control and there wasn't much more we could do to slow down things further. Susceptible people were vaccinated first, along with first responders and then people who have to deal with the public.

It does seem that we're content with the Emergency Approval from the FDA. I think they should move forward with full approval - I think it'll at least give the antivaxers sitting on the fence a push to get vaccinated. For some, I don't think anything will convince them, but to me, that's okay, because we should be able to reach herd immunity.

Sweden is very different from the US. Comparing their daily per capita to the US will be misleading because so many additional differences exist than just the methodology on mask mandates. Comparing Sweden to Finland and Norway makes for a better comparison of how effective is each approach.

I don't like Sweden's approach.

The CR4 image decimation makes this less clear so here is the link for this comparison.

Point well taken. What did Finland and Norway do to successfully combat Covid? Maybe we should look into their approach?

It'll be interesting to see if they got it right.

well, a broken clock is right twice every day.

I don't think herd immunity can be though of as a broken clock.