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Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 1:33 AM

I've been hearing this from a lot of people lately. When we're talking, I hear them say "I just don't know" or something similar.

I've found myself saying the same thing to many of my clients.

Q: When will inventory levels be back to normal? A: I'd love to tell you, but I don't know.

Q: The xyz was suppose to be here on the 28th, but it's not here yet, why? A: Normally, they're pretty accurate, but with Covid and the chip shortage, we just don't know.

Q: When will prices get back to normal? A: We were expecting things to start getting better in July. Shipments have been increasing, but when the truck comes in, every car is pre-sold. Experts are saying mid 2022, but we just don't know.

Has anyone else noticed this and also, does anyone else feel out of control. In my industry, things are about as far off as they can be.

I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

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#1

Re: Has anyone noticed how confused we feel?

08/05/2021 1:38 AM

I'll add one more thing. About a month ago, a client asked me for a 2021 Toyota Tacoma Double Cab 4X2 TRD Sport in Cement (the new flat looking grey). 1 in southern CA and 0 up north (Toyota divides the state into two regions). I called the dealer who has the truck and he told me he still has it. Then I ask for the invoice and he tells me there's no need to send the invoice. I ask why? In my line, we always get the invoice. He then tells me the sticker at $44K and change, then he tells me my price is $64K or a $20K mark up above sticker and $22K above invoice! When I ask if he's in the business office, he tells me he is. I got a little smart with him and I told him it sure feels like I'm talking to a salesman. He got a good laugh and told me that he knows he has the only one in the state, nothing is in Freight, so he's going to make a killing on the truck - per the owner of the dealership.

Obviously, we don't have a deal!

I've never seen anything like this before on a mass produced, old body style, large production vehicle.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Has anyone noticed how confused we feel?

08/05/2021 3:02 AM

So why not buy from an out of state dealer, I had no problem finding one around 36k..

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#14
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Re: Has anyone noticed how confused we feel?

08/05/2021 11:58 PM

The one you found unfortunately is not the right truck. My client is looking for a 2021 Tacoma Double Cab 4X2 TRD Off Road, OF package, TP, EE with Black Leather interior, Cement (exterior color), $42.5- $44K sticker. As of today, there are 0 in the entire state. I've looked at neighboring states and there aren't any in Nevada or Arizona. At the time, there was only one in the entire state of CA and it's now sold (my guess is that they got $20K over sticker).

A lot of dealers are playing a game, where they don't remove sold units from their website or some are including incoming units, however they don't indicate they're incoming. Finally, some dealers are showing pre-sold units in their inventory as available units. My Mazda guy shows 162 new vehicles in inventory, but two are ones I sold weeks ago.

A few days ago, my Honda guy had 4 brand new cars in inventory. His typical inventory is 450. My Toyota guy had 24 brand new cars in inventory. His typical inventory is 550. My Cadillac guy has 2 brand new cars. Even duds like the Honda Ridgeline are sold out.

I tried to find a Suburban and there were 0 available in the state. Tried to get a Yukon XL and same thing. I even tried to drop down to a Tahoe - none. Yukon - none. Up to an Escalade - none. Maybe flip him into an Expedition - none. There are literally 0 of these available at any price in the state. My Chevy guy has 0 Silverados. GMC = 0 Sierras.

At this point, I just dial and hope to find something. But most times I tell my client that it's better to order the car and we'll wait for it to come in. When they ask how long, I have to tell them I don't know, because neither I, nor the factory know. It's terrible and there's no end in sight.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Has anyone noticed how confused we feel?

08/05/2021 4:50 AM

An old saying comes to mind:

"Smoke em if you got em."

This guy will smoke someone by giving them a smoke enema.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Has anyone noticed how confused we feel?

08/05/2021 9:17 AM

Hence the origins of where ‘blowing smoke up your butt’ comes from

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#15
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Re: Has anyone noticed how confused we feel?

08/05/2021 11:58 PM

The Tacoma is no longer in inventory, so someone bought it.

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#5

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 9:50 AM

Our economy has been fine-tuned for maximum efficiency. I remember when "just-in-time" was the latest thing. The waste of storing materials that were not immediately used was minimized or eliminated.

Unfortunately, this fine-tuning seems to have made it less robust to major disruptions such as we have seen in the last year. Hopefully, from lessons learned, changes are being made to increase robustness as well as efficiency.

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#6
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 10:25 AM

With things like JIT, I think is more cyclic. And you pointed out the problems with JIT… especially when the mills begin doing that reducing its inventory that will have a huge effect.

.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 10:53 AM

You are correct. Did you notice J.I.T. came about with the increase in corporate income tax? Inventory is counted as income, and therefore taxable.

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#8
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 4:57 PM

Just because your income is spent on inventory doesn't exclude it from being income....

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#17
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:04 AM

Are you sure inventory is counted as income? For smaller corporations (dealership levels), inventory is counted as an asset and it doesn't become income until it's sold.

Maybe they do that at the factory level? I have never looked into it, since I don't need to.

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#16
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:02 AM

I hope you're right. The auto industry is in shambles. I was in Arizona a month ago and inventory levels were as bad or even worse than here in CA. I've been told it's nationwide, but I haven't called any distant dealers yet. My sister did tell me that the dealers in the north suburbs of Chicago have very little inventory too.

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#9

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 5:55 PM

Nothing is normal, just as it's always been. "Normal" changes all the time without the complications of a global pandemic.

If you have a customer who wants the equivalent of a bespoke, custom product, they should either be willing to pay the extra money for a craftsman to cobble their dream or wait for serendipity to oblige their whims.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 7:23 PM

We are under-informed in the information age.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 9:03 PM

Underinformed and misinformed.

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#23
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:30 AM

Speak for yourself.

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#33
In reply to #23

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 8:36 AM

↑ ↑ ↑ Misinformed fool ↑ ↑ ↑

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#35
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 3:50 PM

It must be such a burden to harbor so much bitterness.

We have a Democrat in the White House, the House of Representatives is under Democrat control and so is the Senate.

How could you be so angry when everything is going your way?

The country is doing so much better now that President Donald Trump is out of office. Gas prices are low, inflation is low, our taxes are dropping, the stores are stocked with everything we want to buy, lumber is cheap and plentiful, there are plenty of new and used cars available for purchase, kids are going back to school without having to wear face masks, there is peace on all the city streets, . . . . .

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#42
In reply to #35

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:14 PM

Don't forget the southern border is under control too....

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#48
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:54 PM

But we only have two governors being recalled ... well, it's only officially one as the other may be impeached.

And we'll soon have a wonderful infrastructure bill, to fix all those bridges, roads, train tracks, internet networks, etc. The ones that went bad in the last four years, due to the lack of maintenance and updates. I am so glad we're fixing the huge mess from the last four years.

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#49
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:56 PM

I forgot the best part! This isn't going to cost us a penny. The corporations and the wealthy are going to pay with increased taxes! I just love all these government projects that won't cost the taxpayer anything!

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#18
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:10 AM

Bespoke, custom made items - yes, agreed. A Toyota Tacoma pick up truck is a mass produced commodity, so it should be available. Normally there are hundreds (yes, literally hundreds) in my region (Southern CA) to choose from. And even if my client wants a specific color, option package and trim level, I can find it or one is on it's way to the dealer.

I've been in the business since 2002 and I've never seen anything like this. If it were just one make or maybe a specific color (I remember after the tsunami in Japan, most black vehicles weren't available, since the paint pigment came from Japan), I'd be okay, because most times, clients are okay flipping into a different car. This time, even Hyundai and Kia are in short supply (not to be taken as an insult to those cars, but they're the ones that are always available).

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#26
In reply to #18

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:47 AM

Again, this is not Fukushima Daiichi.

It is a worldwide disruption of just about everyone/everything. And everyone NOT vaccinated is at greater risk of death.

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#27
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:54 AM

In the auto industry, we didn't have inventory shortages until March 2021 or so. All of 2020 was about excess inventory. Due to the excess inventory, manufacturers cut back on their chip orders for 2021. The chip makers shifted production to other customers. When the auto industry picked up, they requested more chips, but there wasn't enough capacity to fill the orders, hence the shortage.

I am not 100% sure this is true. In the past, I would've known, but at this time, the facts are not being delivered to the franchisees, so since they don't know, neither do we. The scenario in the first paragraph above is what I've been able to pull from business sources, but I have no way of verifying it. At this point, I'm going to assume it's true.

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#30
In reply to #27

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 8:22 AM

What is causing the shortages… is it the lack of employees through out the supply chain?

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#43
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:19 PM

I don't think so. Some of the parts - it's possible, but the chips are due to a lack of manufacturing capacity. The majority of chips are low complexity, less expensive types. Pre-pandemic, we had equilibrium - enough production to take care of the orders. Since the start of the year, the car makers can't get enough chips. I've been told that it's mostly due to higher demand from other industries, which I think is very possible. Some could also be from a lack of employees, but I think most is from increased demand from outside the auto industry.

This is what I was told and I've also heard analysts state the same. If you look at the stocks of chip companies, they've had a huge run since the lows in 2020.

Oh yeah, there is one other possible explanation from the "conspiracy theorists". We pissed off China and this is their way of getting us back. Cut the chip exports just enough to make our lives difficult - and teach us to silently fall in line when it comes to China exports. I don't believe it's true, but you never know!

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#44
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:25 PM

I was walking my dog this evening, and my neighbor was blowing the fresh mowed grass off the street and we talked for a while.

he’s a mechanic at a local Ford dealership, and he said the same thing about the chips.

and in other news… he said the church is having a picnic, along with putting on a car show this Sunday, and they’ll be having booyah… I love booyah.

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#54
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 12:14 AM

Tell your neighbor that he's going to be installing chips (electrical components) in F150s soon. I heard that Ford has been shipping trucks without certain chips/components. The dealer has the right to refuse these if they want ... I can't imagine a dealer turning down F150's. The factory will "train" technicians so they can safely install the chips.

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#36
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 6:19 PM

I think you just answered your question. The auto industry didn't show an inventory shortage until March 2021. So in March 2021, the pre-pandemic pipeline of vehicles ended. The pipeline lag is about a year. The US is one of the first countries to widely distribute COVID vaccines but most vehicles today rely on critical parts (chips, steel, etc.) from countries that do not have a robust vaccine distribution. One year after the pandemic subsides in these countries (not the US) and those critical subassemblies start being built is when "normal" inventory might happen.

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#37
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 6:25 PM

Is it going to subside… not if it means to give up the power grab the politicians in place now have.

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#38
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 6:40 PM

I don't understand. What will subside or become less; the pipeline lag, the pandemic? I did not mention any politicians at all. Maybe you are applying another logical fallacy.

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#39
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 7:20 PM

COVID…

As far as your logical Fallacy remark… you’re funny…

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#52
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 11:15 PM

It sickens me to see this happening, but my gut tells me you're right. Power grab = bad for us regular folks.

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#53
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 11:25 PM

Too many are confused and don’t understand…. They just roam with the herd.

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#50
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 11:11 PM

That's an excellent theory and it makes a lot of sense in many other industries, but the US auto industry is a different beast.

The manufacturer orders parts that will be available JIT for assembly.

The manufacturer ships the cars to the dealer. The dealer has to pay for the car, but they use a "bank" which loans them money - it includes interest.

The dealer tries to move the inventory. If it sits more than 60-90 days, the dealer is not paying extra "flooring" cost to hold the cars. It's like a hot potato now and the dealer needs to get rid of it to stop the interest.

If a dealer holds a car too long, the bank calls the loan and the dealer must pay off the loan. This is the worst thing for a dealer - yes, the interest stops, but precious capital is being used = much lower ROA - not a good thing.

Most inventory that was sitting on dealer lots in March 2021 was less than 3 months old. We didn't have huge end of year inventory clearance discounts in 2020. The inventory levels weren't high enough to require huge discounts to draw out customers. In March 2021, there was a fire in the Renaesis (sp.) chip factory in Japan. The clean room had to be cleaned and the factory was down for about a month. Many customers ran to the dealers to purchase their cars early (the smart ones did). I was telling my clients to buy early, because inventory was dropping fast. We definitely pulled sales ahead, but with light production, the inventory levels dropped really fast. The majority of chips come from China, Taiwan, Japan and the US. I haven't heard about the lack of employees, but it could add to the problem.

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#11

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 7:52 PM

I'm not confused.

Among other things, we are still in the throes of a pandemic. "Pan"demic" means it's world wide.

Let's see, when was that? 2019? That's when the supply chain started to break down, due to Covid-19. The supply chain starts in China.

What is the design through delivery cycle these days?

The housing market went bat **** crazy because of Covid-19. Oops, there goes the lumber prices. That coupled with all the people staying at home with time and money on their hands decided to build something, out of wood. Oops, the saw mills are shut down. Wood shortages and astronomical price hikes. New home starts delayed for months. Covid-19.

Then minor little irritations like the Suez Canal blockage that stranded how many ships for days? Tried to buy pool chlorine lately?

People in the USA are spoiled. They want it NOW. Thus, the high prices for used cars of all kinds.

In this country, the inmates (anti mask/anti vaccination) governors are running the asylum.

This pandemic is not over. We may have to drink sour lemonade for some time to come. If we can still get lemons.

Until many more of us/them/all/everyone gets vaccinated, I see no change in hospital overcrowding and first responder misery.

Until the supply chain mends itself, don't expect any improvement.

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#13
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/05/2021 9:05 PM

The one thing the compounds supply chain breaking down, is the government aiding the unemployed to stay unemployed.

nothing motives a people more is when a person is hungry.

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#20
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:24 AM

You nailed it! Why go to work, when they're going to pay you to stay home!

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#22
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:28 AM

You poor, poor, misinformed fool!

Maybe you're not misinformed. Maybe you think other governments, those who make the most significant contributions to the supply chain, are paying people to stay at home.

Get real!

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#25
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:38 AM

Here in CA, there's a shortage of workers. When I talk to business owners, they tell me their employees aren't coming back, because they get received extensions on their unemployment.

I've also heard that the lumber mills are short of workers. Car dealers are short of workers. Restaurants have shorter hours. A client of mine is a waitress and she told me that she's the only one on the floor sometimes - she says that nobody wants to go back to work. Teachers are quitting. Port workers are staying home. Pilots just did this earlier in the week. Lyft and Uber are short drivers (I still take both services and the time it takes to get a car has increased tremendously). The drivers tell me they're short of workers.

I'm not saying that people aren't going back to work or have remained at work. There are a lot who have. However, there are a lot who have not come back and won't until the money runs out.

Here in CA, this is the reality.

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#32
In reply to #25

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 8:32 AM

From personal experience… there were a lot of jobs available, but they are never filled… it appears company’s locked and loaded and were gearing up to hire, but never pulled the trigger until this pandemic is under control.

and with the power the career politicians have gained and the poor misinformed fools (lyn’s words, lyn you really shouldn’t be so hard on yourself lyn… you’re not that big of a fool,…. Misinformed yes,… but not that big a fool, but still a fool) minions that follow these career politicians, this pandemic will never end.

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#46
In reply to #25

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:44 PM

Last night I drove through Carl's Jr to grab a Chicken Club Sandwich - Yummm! I ordered it through the intercom and I hear the words "sorry, but you can't order any chicken sandwich, except for the breaded ones". The night before, I got the same response. Okay, so on Wed night I ordered Chicken Strips (meal with a chocolate chip cookie)! I waited at the window for a good 5 minutes, then my food arrived. Last night I ordered some sort of waffle breaded chicken sandwich (meal without a chocolate chip cookie).

Tonight, I'm not going to Carl's. Two straight nights of disappointment are enough for me.

Shoot, I lost track of my message - Is the lack of availability of a grilled chicken sandwich due to:

1. Someone forgot to order the chicken?

2. There was too much demand and they simply ran out?

3. Someone left the refrigerator open and all the chicken went bad?

4. The supplier ran out, due to lack of production = workers?

5. The chicken was found to be tainted (at the supplier level), so all supply was destroyed!

6. The chicken ranches are short of chickens?

7. The supplier forgot to order enough chickens?

8. The supplier ran out of chicken, due to too much demand?

If we look at the 8 possibilities (and yes, there are more, but let's just use these for argument sake). Some are due to employee error (mistake in ordering) or damaged inventory. Some are due to too much demand and not enough supply. We have a raw material problem. We have a bacteria/poor handling in the product. And finally we have a shortage of workers. Which is it? I don't know.

I will say that getting stuck for 5+ minutes at the window, waiting for the food to be cooked - that's most likely due to an employee shortage.

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#86
In reply to #25

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 9:38 PM

I heard they weren't coming back for the offered pay because the border was closed for some and the others were afraid of dying for peanuts and insults.

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#94
In reply to #86

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 11:29 PM

The reason is that they sent their kids across the border with the hope that they would be united with them in the US. Maybe it isn't working out too well, because I don't see lines of people standing at Home Depot looking for day work.

Or maybe it's because Uncle has given them lots of free money to stay at home. And of course, they don't have to pay rent and their kids don't have to pay back their student loans.

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#31
In reply to #22

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 8:28 AM

whether you admit it or not… and we all know it’ll be not, That November 8, 2016 still stings for you I see.

Why is it You always belittle people who disagree with you. And your response is nothing but full of maybe’s.

that extra pandemic benefits, sure, they help at first, but then try weaning them off the government teat… which is no longer backed by taxpayers… but by printing more paper money.

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#19
In reply to #11

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:23 AM

The crazy thing is that many large corporations have increased sales from pre-pandemic levels to the last qtr. I'm in an industry where it hasn't recovered, though demand is getting close to pre-pandemic levels.

A friend of mine owns a bicycle shop. He has clients who want bikes, but he can't source them. Yes, he has some in his shop, but the customer has to want that style, that color, in the right size and be willing to pay that price. The same reason why there are a few cars on dealer lots vs 0.

The thing that puzzles me is how we no longer have answers. Spirit Airlines knew that the pilots weren't showing up, yet they did nothing to add more customer service agents (they could've outsourced for a short time) and they delayed telling their customers about the delay. Frontier did the same to us, but the Frontier problem was a much smaller scale than Spirit. We go out to eat and get terrible service. I go to the store and the clerks have a bad attitude. B of A! I can't believe they're letting their clerks talk to customers that way!

Normal things like appreciation of the business customers are bringing in is gone. Or having at least some sort of educated guess, based on years of experience - gone! Will our public service people be of any help? Police don't show up for hours - I can't blame them for the attitude they have, but they're still being paid to do a job. AAA is 7 hours late for a jump start! Mail gets lost for weeks at a time, then magically appears. Our overnight service takes five days to get an envelope to me - great, now the payoff is late and wrong.

I see this change in attitude as very dangerous, because our society has become accustomed to it and our expectations have gone down considerably.

I still have 9 years to go before retirement, however I've given a lot of thought to retiring early. I enjoy what I do, but I don't like the feeling of being out of control, because my vendors and manufacturers don't have answers.

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#57
In reply to #11

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 3:05 PM

It seems you are on the everyone-must-be-vaccinated warpath. You can probably still sign Mark Dice's petition. Show your solidarity with all the others who signed it. See Mark Dice YouTube video, "They Want to Arrest and Jail all Unvaccinated Adults".

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 5:55 PM

Now you clearly are into the realm of logical fallacy, another strawman attack. He mentioned nothing at all about getting everyone vaccinated. More vaccinations across the global supply chain will likely aid in getting the supply chain stabilized. The further exaggeration of arresting the unvaccinated is pure misinformation bull$h!t.

Shame on you.

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#59
In reply to #58

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 8:45 PM

Re: "He (lyn, post #11) mentioned nothing at all about getting everyone vaccinated." Is that so?

Second last sentence of post #11: "Until many more of us/them/all/everyone gets vaccinated...etc."

There is no misinformation in my post. Mark Dice went out on the street with a "Petition". He asked passersby if they agree that people who refuse to be vaccinated should be arrested and imprisoned. Many people agreed and signed his fake petition, believing it to be genuine. Would you sign that petition, Mr. Redfred?

https://youtu.be/TBRLUGMeBL4

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#60
In reply to #59

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 8:55 PM

more ≠ everything

Or do you need a simpler explanation?

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 9:42 PM

Well, unless we hear from the author, lyn, we won't know why lyn used the awkward construction, "Until many more of us/them/all/everyone gets vaccinated...", rather than have simply and clearly stated, "Until many more are vaccinated...". Maybe my suggested, simpler iteration was not used because it does not adequately describe lyn's position. That position can only be clarified by lyn, the author, not you.

It is apparent from Mark Dice's "Petition" video that many citizens actually do want all those who refuse to be vaccinated to be arrested and jailed. So again I ask, would you sign that petition?

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 10:12 PM

I did misread that Lyn included the impossible scenario of everyone being vaccinated.

I apologize.

Still, exaggerating that he or I agree to unvaccinated people becoming criminals is putting words we never uttered into our mouths.

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 11:05 PM

I asked if you would sign Mark Dice's petition that all unvaccinated people be arrested and jailed. Rather than do a Mad Hatter's dance ("The lady doth protest too much, methinks." - Hamlet), why do you not just calmly reply, "I completely disagree that the unvaccinated should be criminalized."?

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 4:43 AM

Why? Because even when I admit a faux pas and apologize there are members here who want more of my blood.

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#65
In reply to #64

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 12:46 PM

More of your blood?… really?…

you’re (1) one of (2) two things.

1.) you’re either a drama Queen or (2) You give yourself way too much credit…

A good chance of both…

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#69
In reply to #65

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 7:02 PM

For the bloodsuckers out there.

Confusion will be my epitaph

Remember, one million flies cannot all be wrong.

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#71
In reply to #69

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 7:16 PM

What?, are your that paranoid?

You think people can read your mind. You’re wrong, and that’s the only thing you don’t give yourself enough credit.

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#73
In reply to #71

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 9:41 PM

Who said anything about paranoia?

I doubt you can read the lyrics to a song, let alone a mind.

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#75
In reply to #73

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 11:07 PM

You think I would actually waste my time and that s#it you posted,… now you giving yourself way too much credit,… again.

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#79
In reply to #63

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 12:20 AM

For the record, I completely disagree.

The last I checked, we enjoy privacy of our health records (HIPAA). I haven't read HIPAA, but a friend of mine is an RN and she had to know about it. So I use her as my source - she told me it's against HIPAA for companies to ask if an employee has been vaccinated.

Your post brings up a great topic. It also tells us how the media has infiltrated the middle class (and poor) to the point where they feel that our rights can and should be violated during the pandemic. It's definitely a sad day for our great nation, when our citizens don't understand the implication and the precedence it sets. Very dangerous indeed!

Thanks for sharing!

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#78
In reply to #58

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 12:13 AM

Please don't take this as an attack. I want to ask you to consider something for me.

If we go to the original theme of this thread, it's about feeling confused. I think the post in question has a lot to do with feeling confused. Throwing people in jail for not getting vaccinated? That's so extreme, yet in 2021 America, someone has actually taken a poll and has data. I find this very interesting and also very upsetting. It could stir up more problems and make the divide wider between the pro and anti vaxers. We should be trying to heal our country and bring people closer together. We were told by our current POTUS that he would do this. So maybe we should all make an attempt to meet in the middle ... or at least agree to disagree. The analogy of a couple before deciding to divorce comes to mind. If someone could do a good job mediating, I believe most times a divorce can be avoided.

I appreciate you reading my post. I would like to know your thoughts.

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#81
In reply to #78

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 9:26 AM

Okay, I see your question about jailing the unvaccinated as a logical fallacy to the discussion. Being persuaded by logical fallacies confuses. Logical fallacies neither support nor refute any perspective but frequently raise emotions that confuse people. Emotions come easily to most. It is difficult to identify and ignore logical fallacies. A lot of practice and review of the identified fallacies are needed.

Forcibly confining (jailing) contagious individuals who refuse to follow public health guidelines have precedence in US law. The story of Mary Mallon (aka Typhoid Mary) is one well-documented example. The legacy of leper colonies also comes to my mind.

So whether I do or do not believe those who refuse COVID-19 vaccination should be jailed is irrelevant. The state already has the authority to do this if they choose to exercise it.

If you wish to be less confused about anything, look for logical fallacies.

(You should read the King Crimson lyrics, too. )

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#87
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 9:52 PM

I think the reason why we're feeling so confused is that common sense has been thrown out the window. So many things just don't make sense. When a rational person can't make heads of tails out of the situation, there's a problem.

I have a few - please shed some light on these.

1. People arrested for a crime are given a bail - it allows the court to let them free until their court date, with not only a promise to appear, but a financial penalty if they don't. Here in Los Angeles, it's a rare occasion for a person arrested of a crime to be given bail. The court system was told by the DA to let them go on their own recognizance. I see no logic here.

2. The Federal Reserve has pumped $120B per month into buying Treasuries and MBS since the start of the pandemic. They claim that it's needed to "prop up" the economy and they will continue until their dual mandate has been fulfilled. We're seeing inflation rear it's ugly head (unstable economy) and unemployment is under control. In fact, there are more jobs available than there are people on unemployment. Employment is so tight that McDonalds has a $1000 signing bonus at certain locations. And employers are forced to pay higher wages. Wall Street is asking for the Fed to stop QE. There's too much money in the financial system. Yet the Fed keeps pumping money in. Since they're risking the dual mandate (inflation pressure and unemployment under control), where's the logic in the continuation of QE?

3. Airlines have planes at or near capacity. The general public is okay with flying and they want to travel. Pre-pandemic, there were many more flights compared to today. Last week, a number of airlines had trouble getting pilots to show up for work - yes, it was their way of protesting. Since demand isn't showing any signs of receding, wouldn't it make sense for airlines to hire more pilots and increase the number of flights? Per this WSJ article, there are so many planes that can be brought back into the fleet, so it's not a lack of airplanes. So, airplanes are filled to capacity (and many flights overbooked), delays are a common occurrence, cancelled flights need to be expected, leaving many travelers very upset. Where is the logic in this?

How can rational people not be confused?

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#89
In reply to #87

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 11:00 PM

Who told you things have to make sense? Not even the fundamental Science of Physics, namely Quantum Mechanics, makes any sense.

Oftentimes but not always, even manmade constructs like art, the law, and sports will briefly make sense from a particular perspective. Then over time, some randomization happens and nobody can remember why that was originally considered a good idea. Are the urinating statuary children of Brussels really a sign of culture or child pornography? What is wrong with driving a camel on a Nevada highway? What is the point of the infield fly rule? What do you mean the infielders don't have to catch the fly ball for the batter to be out? And who thought ax throwing in an urban bar serving alcohol was a wise idea?

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#76
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 12:00 AM

It won't work here in CA, because the powers that be feel it's best to keep our jails/prisons as empty as possible. The reason? They say it has to do with Covid in prisons, but I have a feeling it's the political agenda of the far left. When the DA for LA County says that every prisoner can be rehabilitated ... that's a problem!

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#77
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 12:05 AM

I don't think this is off topic. The discussion is about how confused we feel, then someone brought up the unvaccinated.

I think this is a very relevant post. It shows how screwy things have gotten. I don't think it will ever happen, but someone is doing an experiment to see how many are in agreement.

I think this was a great scientific experiment. I don't agree with the petition, but I appreciate the attempt. I also appreciate Canadianslidewinder for bringing this up, because it shows how far overboard we've gone and also how polarized we have become due to politics.

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#83
In reply to #77

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 10:51 AM

I too was shocked that so many Americans agreed and signed Mark Dice's petition to arrest and jail the unvaccinated. If that petition were conducted up here in Canada I would be less shocked if an even higher percentage of Canadians signed it than our American cousins. We do not have the same traditions of free speech, civil liberties, civil disobedience as in the States - respect for authority, loyalty to the Queen and so on translates, for many, into hostility against those who question authority. It is dividing us individually - old friendships are being lost on this issue - and dividing us on a national level.

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#90
In reply to #83

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 11:05 PM

I think it's a very sad state, when something as ludicrous as a petition to arrest people for their personal choice, gets traction.

I had not idea it was that bad in Canada. Though here in Los Angeles, it's pretty bad too!

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#21

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:25 AM

Sorry guys, but I'm in not in a good mood tonight. The problems keep getting worse and normally I can see the light at the end of the rainbow, but I don't see it this time.

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#24

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:34 AM

Here's something to consider.

I think I'm feeling so off balance because my background of knowledge and experience is at conflict with the current state of affairs, both public and private.

Here in CA, we landlords have been promised to be reimbursed for the back rent from tenants not paying rent due to Covid. We can't evict for non-payment of rent, per the state and the Federal gov't. I have two tenants who have paid me $0 for almost a year and a half. Another who got behind and luckily she moved out. And another who has paid about 1/2 the rent. I filed with the county back in March or April and I'm in the 100,00 to 200,000 on the list. They're almost to 400,000 now. I've heard nothing from the county and everytime I call, I'm told that I'm on the list and I need to wait.

A rental agreement/lease is a private contract between me and my tenant. I don't feel that the government can or should get between the parties, unless a law is broken. For the government to tell us we can't exercise our right of eviction as a means to receive payment for services - to me, that's completely wrong. And it sets a precedence for the future.

As soon as the eviction moratorium is over, I'm selling my rentals. I made this decision last year, when the rules were changed. The risk has increased and it doesn't make financial sense anymore.

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#34
In reply to #24

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 8:47 AM

Here’s an interesting tidbit….when I was in college, the owner of apartment I was in, I was the manager (a story in itself for another time)

anyways the apartment was sold, and the new owner, found out, he could get almost twice the amount of rent from government subsidies if he rented to high risk people, such as drug addicts ect…

I told him, that your choice, but if you do that, I’ll be moving, he did it, people started to move in and I gave notice where I finished the month out…

Within those three weeks, (4) calls to the ambulances where called, and (5) calls from the police for domestic violence.

I came home, and the apartment next to me, the apartment door across from me was open and the paramedics were in that doorway with the patient laying on the floor sitting upright.

As I unlocked my door, I heard the paramedic ask the guy… who was fuzzy eyed and in a dreamy state… what kind of pills did you take. The next day, I was out of there.

yes, as I mentioned before… when people suckle of the government teat,… they are no longer hungry.

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#47
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Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:49 PM

The owner of the apartment was a fool. I have a client who rents apartments to college kids. The parents have to co-sign so missed rent can be collected as well as damages. They have done this for many, many decades and it's been a great cash cow!

Renting to derelicts, just to increase income? That makes no sense ... unless you have a slummy place where regular people won't live. That wasn't the case with you.

Short sighted and chasing after money - not good. If you went back, I bet the place was in shambles the next year.

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#28

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 12:59 AM

Maybe someone can shed light on this, because it makes no sense.

1. We have a huge shortage of cars.

2. Every manufacturer/brand is affected.

3. Earlier this week, I delivered a brand new 2020 Hyundai Sonata SE. Way below invoice cost, due to it being a 2020.

4. The 2020 Sonata is the same as a 2021, except it has a slightly lower price.

5. New 2021 Sonata inventory is low and prices at the dealer are MSRP or above.

6. New 2022 Sonata inventory is low, but prices are $500 lower than 2021 models - apples to apples.

Using any resemblance of logic, can anyone tell me how this makes sense? How can the dealer have a left over 2020 when the 2022's are out. And they're selling the 2022's for less than 2021's? I don't get it!

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#29

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 2:50 AM

Undefined: <...we...>.

While <...Confused...> might be the case in somewhere like <...La La Land...>, the same might not be the case elsewhere.

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#40
In reply to #29

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:03 PM

If you're not confused, then that's good for you.

I just wish the people who aren't confused would have the decency to help those of us who are. But that's probably asking too much.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:04 PM

Sometimes the confusion barrier is just impenetrable.

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#45

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 10:27 PM

Here's a update for August 6th. A little over a month ago, I ordered a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited from the factory. This is the third special order since Feb or so. The last three were delivered from 4-6 weeks from the order date.

One week later, I ordered a Jeep Gladiator. Logically, the Wrangler would be built first and the Gladiator next. Then I received some really bad news - Jeep shut down the Gladiator assembly line due to the chip shortage on July 29th. Well, at least my Wrangler order would be processed. Nope, as of today, the Wrangler still isn't built, but the Gladiator is? The Gladiator is now on a train, headed for the port.

It sure doesn't make much sense to me. I have a car (that is built on an assembly line that was recently shut down) which was ordered a week later, however it will be arriving before the car that has a fully operational assembly line.

Go figure!!!

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#51

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/06/2021 11:14 PM

This is not meant to be a political sleight. It is meant to show that a person who I feel does not have the skill set to work out problems can cause more damage. This action was taken just as the chip shortage was starting to have an effect on vehicle inventory levels. From then to now, the problem has gone parabolic!

Again, this is not political - it's about putting incompetent people in the wrong place.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/02/24/chip-shortage-automakers-biden/4573587001/

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#55

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 12:20 AM

This morning, I was watching Bloomberg or CNBC and they interviewed a top stock analyst. When the questions went a little deeper, he calmly said "I don't know"! Then a couple follow on questions were asked and he said that this market is nothing like he's ever seen before and he said logically, we're much to high - using using p/e as a yardstick, but with the Fed throwing so much money at Wall Street and there's really no other place to invest, he said it could keep going higher. The idea was raised that the Fed is so mixed about what to do and when to do it, so how can analysts know where the market is headed. His advice was to put money that you can't risk losing on the sidelines. Invest in three areas, reopening trade, quality cyclicals and quality growth (FANG stocks). It was very strange watching the interview this morning.

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#56

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/07/2021 12:22 AM

A couple days ago, my sister and I were talking about HOOD (Robin Hood stock) and AMD. She said the Reddit crowd took over again and she was jumping in and out plus trading Friday expiration call options with huge time premiums. I told her that's gambling and she said it's okay, as long as there's a profit at the end of the week. I had to agree, but I won't play there.

Anyone here playing HOOD or AMD calls this week? Just curious.

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#66

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 3:54 PM

As usual, this thread has gone in the shi*%er, led there by the usual cadre of opinionated, Google quoting know-it-alls.

The few voices of reason (not necessarily mine) have again, been overrun by hysteria, opinion and self-serving "facts," mined from the rich resources of Google by these "experts"!

For whatever reason, this forum has been taken over by SE and his gang and, apparently, with the blessing of admin.

By closing out any new members, admin has insured that this group of bullies will never be questioned, except by those members already on the rolls.

The original question requires nothing more than simple logic to answer.

THERE IS A PANDEMIC! Remember what a pandemic even is??? It's WORLDWIDE!

Lots of things we don't like are happening.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 5:18 PM

Now that you can no longer blame Trump… you’re blaming everyone else.

try looking in the mirror to find who really is responsible.

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 6:41 PM

As Mark Twain said of people like you,

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

Have it your way.

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#70
In reply to #68

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 7:15 PM

stop being the village idiot, or Shall we roll the tape of your past posts to show what a hypocrite you are? Just say the word…

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#72
In reply to #70

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 9:35 PM

See #68

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#74
In reply to #72

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/08/2021 11:05 PM

Saying you’d like to see your own posts that shows what a hypocrite you are, isn’t agreeing with me… but I can certainly understand why you don’t want to see them…

see #70

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#80
In reply to #66

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 12:35 AM

Hey Lyn,

I'm curious how you feel about things? I know that you've had your share of problems with Covid and I hope things are getting better. We should all be understanding and allow you some leeway, as you've had it much worse than most or if not all of us.

I believe we're in a strange period and I'm worried there are precedents being set that will damage our great nation. I can't think of another time (one that I have personally experienced) where lawlessness is accepted and where responsibility is shrugged off.

I love watching movies from the 50's and before. I admire the honor people had back then. They wanted to do the right things and they had a heart and truly cared for others. The bad guys lost and if someone did something wrong, he would get caught and would have to pay the penalty - even if he repented!

I still believe we have honor in our souls. We still have a heart. I see people helping other out of their own goodness. I try to do this as much as I can. I also appreciate when others do the same to me.

I know there's a lot of animosity here on this site and I'm trying to do my best to have all of us get along. I am not innocent by any means, as I've gotten into "it" with others here.

I would like to hear your opinion and I ask others to please be respectful. Even though you may not agree, it's okay. We can be civilized, right?

Thank you!

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#82
In reply to #80

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 9:57 AM

Since you like old movies and the ethos they portray, you should watch "Panic in the Streets" with Richard Widmark and Jack Palance. I don't know either your movie-watching technology or where you'll find a suitable copy of this movie. Maybe your local library can help.

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#88
In reply to #82

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 10:03 PM

That's a fantastic movie! Elia Kazan is an awesome director. The movie is a thriller, but not in the way modern movies are. And the good guy wins in this one too!

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#92
In reply to #88

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 11:20 PM

Yes, it is a great movie but our reality is not so neat and simple as a Hollywood movie. We now have to cope with asymptomatic carriers.

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#95
In reply to #92

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/09/2021 11:45 PM

Here's a philosophical question regarding Covid.

Since:

1. People who are susceptible need to be vaccinated, however it's their choice. Though I think that most have.

2. Vaccinated people don't have to worry about dying from Covid.

3. The general public has the choice to be vaccinated, so those who have chosen are protected.

4. Our kids (under 12) are at very, very low risk of dying from Covid.

5. If the people who need to be or have chosen to be have done so, then the asymptomatic carriers can only harm the non vaxed, who have made the choice to take the risk.

You can use the same argument for smokers and non smokers. If a non vaxed person gets sick and all the non vaxed don't overwhelm our hospitals, then it's their risk to take. Same with smokers.

I totally agree that Hollywood is not reality. Even the old movies were not true depictions of real life (at least most weren't). What they did show is that we were a much more humane society back then. We were taught the difference between right and wrong, with most of the population in agreement. Today, you can see how polarized our values have become. Some feel it's okay to publicly humiliate people. Some feel it's okay to pick on people weaker than us (remember when we'd call them bullies).

Remember what our dads told us about bullies. Tell him to stop and if he doesn't, give him a straight right to the middle of his face. If he doesn't go down, keep swinging! If you get your butt kicked, so be it. Lick your wounds and do better next time. That's the most simple solution, but we overthink things now.

Few parents today know how to take care of things. I know, we're in a different time and place, but teaching a bully a lesson isn't a bad thing.

I think the last TV show that tried to teach us values was the Brady Bunch. I still enjoy watching reruns. If I'm not mistaken, the good guy won on that show too.

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#97
In reply to #95

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/10/2021 8:47 AM

You really should take those rose-colored glasses off. Society was not more humane back then. Billie Holiday sang about strange fruit swinging from trees. Elia Kazan named names to save his ass despite knowing that Zero Mostel's career was virtually ruined by the blacklist. The police seize Allen Ginsberg's poem "Howl" for subversion. Prices for goods were low but wages were even lower. Don't forget that the New York City Police were so corrupt that the State Legislature disbanded them once gang and Mafia members were found to be part of the force.

I almost forgot to mention Polio.

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#98
In reply to #95

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/10/2021 5:12 PM

Some issues…

on your statement on #2… same with #3

I understand that vaccinated people can still be carriers.

as far as smokers… I got in a tiff with a vapor smoker. About the unknown and known damage it can do to their lungs… he disagreed and the. Had a hard time defending it where he got very hostile and vile… similar to the CR4 members here.

only time will tell.

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#101
In reply to #95

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/12/2021 5:29 PM

There are many questionable statements in your post.

1. a. No, vaccination should not be a personal choice. (More on that later.)
__b. "Most" may not be correct, depending on where.

2. False. The risk is greatly less, but not zero.

3. Largely protected, but not totally.

4. A fair number of kids have died. The number is not large, but again not zero.

5. Wrong again. The vaccines are about 90% effective, so even vaccinated persons are endangered by non-vaxxers.

6. Many hospitals are already overwhelmed, thanks partly to negligent non-vaxxers.

7. What makes vaccination not a personal choice is that non-vaccination endangers other people. This is similar to drunk driving, which is not a personal choice either. A legal term for these is "reckless endangerment", which should not be allowed.

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#102
In reply to #101

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/12/2021 11:43 PM

Your Point #5: "The vaccines are about 90% effective, so even vaccinated persons are endangered by non-vaxxers."

The other reasonable conclusion is that since the vaccines are about 90% effective, and that vaccinated people can still catch and transmit the disease, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people are endangered by vaccinated people.

Your Point #7: "What makes vaccination not a personal choice is that non-vaccination endangers other people."

-A non-vaccinated person who has had Covid-19 is not a danger to others.

-Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of the mRNA vaccine technology, and certain other vaccinologists warn that vaccines that still allow contracting and transmission of the disease (as is the case with the current Covid vaccines) can enable Antibody Dependent Enhancement of the virus, wherein the vaccine itself becomes the driving mechanism for mutations of the virus to increased virulence. He states that there is evidence that this "worst case scenario" could be unfolding (look at the spike in cases in Israel, where almost the entire population is vaccinated). If his warning turns out to be true, then the vaccinated people, now wrapped in their cloak of virtue, are actually the primary breeding grounds for more deadly strains, and a grave danger to both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.

-The long term effects of these vaccines are unknown. A Canadian doctor claims he has detected microscopic blood clots in the capillaries of 62% of his vaccinated patients. Harmless now he says, but they could be ticking time bombs, with dire long term health consequences, when all those microscopic clots are no longer microscopic or harmless. If he is correct, the vaccinated are endangering themselves, and could cause future overburdening of national health care systems. People should have the right to weigh the risk, and the right not to have an injection of something with unknown long term effects. It is my body, my choice - not, my body, your choice.

-If, like you, we all assert that vaccination is not a personal choice, then we are looking into the abyss. Shall we line up to sign Mark Dice's petition that all unvaccinated people should be arrested and jailed? Should it be law that unvaccinated people wear identifying armbands - maybe bearing a skull and crossbones? It would make it easier then to round them up, put them on trains and take them to detention camps, don't you agree? They had their chance to take the vaccine and they didn't. Why then should the virtuous vaccinated people show them any sympathy? The unvaxxed chose to be a danger to society - a threat to the common good. I hear the cry of the vaccinated true believers: "Anti-vax heretics! That's what they are! They have rejected the true faith of Good Covidians everywhere. Whatever final measures are chosen for them at the detention camps, they will have only themselves to blame." Do you not agree Mr. Tornado that it is time to shuttle the cattle-cars and get the trains ready?

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#103
In reply to #102

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/13/2021 1:47 AM

This thread was aptly titled. Welcome aboard.

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#104
In reply to #103

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/13/2021 9:16 AM

You assert that vaccinations (specifically the Covid-19 vaccinations) should not be a personal choice. That is, it is your position that the Covid-19 vaccinations should be mandatory and administered, if necessary, against the citizen's will. The Nuremberg Code, resulting from the Nuremberg trials at the end of WWII stated that all medical procedures must have fully formed and freely given consent. Can I conclude that you believe the Nuremberg Code should be ignored, and can I also conclude that you believe it is time to round up all unvaccinated citizens, shove them into cattle cars, and deliver them to detention camps, where their objections will be futile, and corrective medical procedures (both physical and psychological) can be administered to these dangerous people? These are serious questions Mr. Tornado. Kindly do not reply with a snarky witticism.

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#105
In reply to #104

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/13/2021 6:41 PM

<sarcasm on> No, that would not be draconian enough. <sarcasm off>

It will take me a while to compose an adequate reply to your nasty insinuation.

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#107
In reply to #105

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/13/2021 9:45 PM

May I suggest this as a reply to me:

"Thankyou CS. I have reconsidered my position. Citizens should not be forced against their will to be injected with the Covid-19 vaccination. I agree that the Nuremberg Code should be upheld. We must learn from history. If governments can mandate that medical procedures can be performed on citizens without the individual's fully formed and freely given consent, we will be going down a very dark path. You are correct. If this is allowed, we will, to use your expression, be looking into the abyss. I guess I hadn't thought things through. Thanks again, and best wishes. - Tornado"

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#108
In reply to #107

Re: Has Anyone Noticed how Confused we Feel?

08/13/2021 10:01 PM

Invitation declined.

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