Hydrogen Boondoggle?

No, not a scam.

It would benefit from commercial scale-up, though, as would the adaptation of fuel-using devices to utilise its product.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.

I know,

I was just trying to use a provocative title to wind the boys up.

The alerts from MIT is usually pretty balanced.

This kind of hydrogen producing, makes the whole subject [hydrogen based energy systems] seem practical. There's still a long way to go on storage!

Absolutely brilliant! The idea of straining the titania to make it absorb more of the solar spectrum eliminates the need for the unstable organic dye molecules normally required in previous related approaches. Nano-technology to the rescue! Titania (titanium dioxide) is dirt cheap and very stable, so this is really good news.

Sorry, boys. By omission - I am sorry to say, because it sounds good - it is a scam. Translation:fundamental problems left unresolved. Yes, it splits the water, but how the hydrogen and oxygen goes their separate way?!? I see no provision for it. Otherwise, wonderful.

Darn it! Would finally somebody present something useful, instead halfbaked dreamups?!?

Not a scam -- John Turner at the NREL would not endorse it if it were. And the principles seem perfectly reasonable to those who know about this field of research. The issue of separating the hydrogen gas (H₂) from the oxygen gas (O₂) is just a matter of engineering. For example, a nickel hydride system could selectively absorb H₂ out of the mixture, then release the pure H₂ into a separate container. It's very easy and fashionable to react skeptically to preliminary reports about new technologies (apparently even ones that don't rely on "free energy"), but try to keep an open mind, even if the technology needs a little fine tuning.

another company doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4lMcpy22qM

Yes, I love the expression: it is just a matter of engineering......

Yes, I wish to dream, I wish to talk, I wish to wish....

That (.....) engineer ONLY HAVE TO realize my dreams.

Piffle.

It is like the storyline: I am a man, and my children will be wonderful.

IF a woman would look at me,

IF she would consent

IF she would have my children

IF she would raise them

Otherwise everything is already settled.

Yeah, sure.

It is exactly the same with a research product and an invention. There is not an iota difference in the story line. There is a PROMISE in every new invention and discovery - nothing more and nothing less - and just like raising a new human being, the real work is just beginning with the birth of a new idea. Do you want it to see to succeed? See to it, that it grows up, not just stuck in childhood forever. Dreaming is fine, nay it is necessary. But, to realize it in real world, the dream have to grow up finally.

It may not be there yet but I would say it is a nano-step for mankind. I can't see why we won't come up with something one day.

Think of it , If a cell can evolve to a plant and use abc technology to produce carbohydrates using only sun energy, we should be able to invent something.

Maybe we are too modest in our approach, we should directly go for the production of petrol. One can take the exhaust gasses and use sun energy to restore it to petrol All that would be required is to drain the tank regularly to prevent overflow.

Alternative design - put the converter in the cylinder chamber.

I predict that in the near future (10-20 years), the production of hydrogen gas (and other energy carriers like aluminum metal) from solar energy will be become routine. And at that point we will wonder why we didn't work out the details sooner, and why so many early 21st-century online commentators sounded so skeptical about the possibility. Sunlight contains energy, and this energy can drive endothermic reactions like the splitting of water (trees have been doing this for millions of years). Working with the insights provided by science, and with the techniques of biological and artificial nano-technology, we will develop very efficient and clean ways of exploiting the copious energy emitted by the great-fusion-reactor-in-the-sky (aka "the Sun").

Not yet practical to use. May need decades of research or expensive support systems that keep it only for the rich elites.

Not yet practical to use. May need decades of research or expensive support system that keep it only for the rich elites.

When a person expresses pessimism without giving specific reasons, it sounds like unreasonable pessimism. The research breakthrough (the restructuring of titania to eliminate the need for dye molecules) is already proven in principle, so it might take a just a few more years to bring it to market. And to what "expensive support systems" do you refer? After separating H₂ from the H₂/O₂ mixture (via membranes, H2 trapping in metal hydrides or buckytubes, or via O₂ liquification) the H₂ can be fed directly into a off-the-shelf PEM fuel cell, or instead stored as a metal hydride (an existing technology). I understand why educated people feel skeptical and pessimistic about thermodynamic-law-violating "free energy" proposals. But why do they feel this way towards recent progress in mainstream alternative energy technologies? (almost seems like they don't want to see our energy problems solved). If a people (especially in an engineering forum) want to critique a new technology, they should at least state specific technical issues (thus allowing the discussion of possible specific remedies).

Good explanation sven,

This 1 looks like a winner.

The sun doesn't violate any of the known laws, It just happens to shine everywhere.

This particular technique is just using known method, from a different application [chip fabrication], to increase the efficency.

Hydrogen as a medium of energy storage, can have many benefits.

the most important being the ability to have distributed power generation, instead of the more inefficent central model now in use.

Using energy as close to the point of production as possible, will bring reduce the losses inherent in the long distance tranmission of energy no matter what from is being used

Using energy as close to the point of production as possible, will bring reduce the losses inherent in the long distance tranmission of energy no matter what from is being used

You sound to be anti-deregulation.

WOW I guess my grammar filters were non-operational, corrected below.

We should use energy as close to the point of production as possible, reducing the losses inherent in the long distance transmission of energy no matter what form is being used

I think energy independance should begin as close to home as possible, OPEC isn't the only pusher when it comes to energy. There will be regulation. NEC, EPA & whoever is in charge of the inevitable grid connection to assure power quality. In areas where you can sell your excess power to your local utility, you aren't paid the same rate you pay them.

There are problems with using H as a fuel in large scale, such as to replace oil-based fuel. How much H can be produced per unit in a given time at what cost and how is it stored and transported to where it is to be used? If it is to replace oil-based fuels and provide the same range per vehicle as oil-based fuels what system of fuel storage will work? How much space is needed for the devices to produce that amount of fuel?

1. H can be stored as a liquid at near absolute zero. Using this system in a vehicle requires a constantly running freezer to maintain the temperature. If the freezer breaks down the result is not pretty.

2. H can be stored by compressing it to 10,000 psi in a heavy tank, but 5 times larger than a gasoline tank to get the same range. The tank must also be able to withstand any possible auto accident .

3. H can be stored in metal hydrides weighing about 1500 lbs to get the same range as a tank of gas.

How many of these H generators and storage systems would be needed per 100 square miles or every 100 miles of road to refuel autos using smaller tanks more often? There are huge problems to work out and they may be expensive. Considering the politics of many of the "greenies" they really oppose the general populace being able to drive as they want, when they want and what they want. That is why I wonder how really practical H can be in replacing oil-based fuels and the cost of doing it.

Taganan,

thank you for your detailed reply.

I agree that -- for the immediate future -- the direct storage of hydrogen in moving vehicles still suffers from problems. But I foresee a different major application of the technology: generation of electricity at stationary power plants. The hydrogen gas produced by the device would drive fuel cells attached to the grid. This would facilitate the wide-spread use of solar electricity by avoiding the need for the expensive photo-voltaic cells currently available (titania is much less expensive than crystalline silicon; cells employing organic components degrade quickly and require frequent replacement). Due to the high efficiency of fuel cells, this solar-to-hydrogen-to-electricity approach would still achieve a much higher energy efficiency than combustion of fossil fuels. And of course solar electricity produces no greenhouse gases (and no sulfur or nitrogen oxides either). The widespread adoption of solar electricity would help free the U.S. and other countries from dependence on foreign petroleum suppliers. Some of the poorest counties (especially in Africa) could benefit by becoming net exporters of electricity to the Europe, India, and China. Seems like a win-win situation if this technology succeeds. I see no reason not to pursue it aggressively.

Right, it depends on how it is used. Drives me nuts to see all those 'Greenies" who think it will replace fuel in cars. Eventually it could be a good source of fuel to make electricity, but then the size or number of H generating units may spark another 'Greenie" group to oppose it as endangering some insect. And electric cars are not an immediate answer either, since it may take decades to perfect the technology and build the plants. It would sure make OPEC upset.

Forget exporting electricity, those countries could make themselves better off by producing enough electricity for everyone. Ooops! First they have to get rid of their greedy and corrupt governments or it would be used only to line the pockets of the politicians. Power to the individual means power to the people.

Right, it depends on how it is used. Drives me nuts to see all those 'Greenies" who think it will replace fuel in cars.

Agreed -- the complexity of safely and efficiently storing H₂ on-board a small moving vehicle will delay this application. But those complexities don't apply nearly as much to using hydrogen (H₂) in large-scale electrical power plants.

Eventually it could be a good source of fuel to make electricity, but then the size or number of H generating units may spark another 'Greenie" group to oppose it as endangering some insect.

Environmentalists protesting against technology that cleanly generates H₂ and electricity from solar energy? How absurd! (even the titania used to construct the solar-powered electrolysis unit is harmless).

And electric cars are not an immediate answer either, since it may take decades to perfect the technology and build the plants.

Electric cars will become mainstream once battery technology improves. I hear more and more about incremental improvements and possible near-term breakthroughs. So I think electric cars will become practical sooner than most people expect. Once they do, they become part of the clean energy economy powered by solar-electric conversion.

Forget exporting electricity ...

Some of the poorest countries have some of most intense sunlight (especially in Africa). They will be able to generate much more electricity and hydrogen than they can use. Naturally they will want to sell it to Europe, China, and India. The U.S., Spain, Australia, and Central American countries would probably be able to supply their own energy needs if they adopt wide-scale solar electric conversion. On second thought, the U.S. -- due to its high energy consumption -- would probably need a few decades to build enough solar conversion plants to achieve self-sufficiency.

For the next 10-infinite years, he's probably right. Case in point. Have you priced a PEM Off-the-shelf Generator that can run much more than a big pencil sharpener for more than a few hours? Ballard's got em, but Cheap they ain't. And the prices aren't coming down fast. I'm absolutely sure we will solve the problem, in the long term. Short term, I would bet more on compressed air for a battery than a hydrogen storage tank.

Yes, a runaway pressure vessel can blow a hole in a brick wall (whether or not you are in front of it) but it usually won't blow it up. And right now, we crack hydrocarbons as the most cost effective way of producing hydrogen. Don't get me wrong, I like the hydrogen research that's going on, but it's still in it's infancy, and almost all of it is bound up tightly with other materials so basically we are supplying energy to unbind the molecules in order to reap the energy released in recombining them. If I'm not mistaken (I can't be wrong, I thought I was wrong once, but was only mistaken :P ). At best it is a Zero-Sum game. It only works if the energy to unbind them is free. As for handling hazards...

I agree with you and Taganan that fuel cells won't have much practical (economical) application in the immediate future (the next few years). But my point is that new technologies take a while to optimize, so we should not be unreasonably pessimistic just because they are not ready for immediate widespread use. I think you agree with this point. Given that the operating principles are sound (i.e., they don't violate known physical theory, and they rely on reasonably accessible materials and techniques), research should go forward. I see no solid reasons to assume that we can't ever overcome the present obstacles. Energy storage and conversion via hydrogen fuel cell systems has much promise, and should be aggressively researched.

Welcome to CR4 Tom,

You seem to be popping up on some of the recent threads [history.]

Here's some from a bit farther back you might enjoy.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/4193/Global-Warming-is-a-political-hoax

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/873/The-Challenge-Meeting-Global-Energy-Demands-Sustainably

& Masu's fine series of blog entries about future energy.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/902/Possible-Technologies-for-Future-Energy-and-Power-Production

Thanks Garth, I'll look into them shortly.

I just stumbled across the site the other day, now I can't get off of it ...

I've been perusing some of the threads, getting ideas, bugging people, and chastising a few of the global warming sheep that are just lining the pockets of the fear mongerers... in other words, having fun. My little tidbits of information on CO2

Thanks for the links. I'm always up for more information. I think I have 2 more brain cells I can fill, though it might be down to one if I can't keep out of the bar tomorrow. MMMMMM BEER!

Tom - I looked up the prices of fuel cells. Ouch! That is the basis of my doubt about fuel cells being practical in the near future. At e-mail address - beesidemeusa@yahoo.co.uk - ask about steam-electric hybrids - there is info on an idea that could help with the automotive power problem and our dependence on oil.

It is the constantly rising price of oil and our dependence on it that ultimately drives us to find alternative energy sources. The idea could work for the decades needed to produce EVs or fuel cell H-power cars at prices comparable to todays cars and they could also be H-powered later on. [Cars cost about a year's wages now and should then.]

The other thing that is precipitously pushing research in the direction of H-power or EVs to the virtual exclusion of any other are the "Greenies" and their Global Warming hysteria. Groups like the Environmental Liberation Front, PETA, vegans and other extreme environmentalists basically abhor civilisation and would have us live in a stone age fashion. There are people who would not only outlaw SUVs, but cars in general and make everyone ride bicycles and live in cities, towns or villages by law. [Look up "Town and Country" land use planning.]

I think we might have a mix of all different types of propulsion since each type has its own niche, if only the government and Big Auto will allow it, and those that prove out will last. If OPEC and Big Oil allow it we may also be able to make clean fuel from coal and there are centuries worth of coal. We do not need to rush into H-power and force it on people at very high prices. We do have time to develop other ways. Biofuels will not replace all other sources, but they will help and genetically engineering the plants that produce biofuels can help even more.

Industry is likely to move closer to the source of power, which would help the African countries, rather than send the power to Europe in huge quantities. A blend of photovoltaics making electricity for the grid and to make hydrogen by day and using the H to make electricity at night seems likely to work. Line losses make it more efficient to use the power near where it is made. The next problem would be enough water to make enough H to power a high level of industry. In that case a warmer climate and more rain would help provide the water, but the clouds would lower the production of H so you would have to store more H to cover that which uses more water. Also consider that burning H makes water vapor which is even more of a greenhouse gas than CO2. Greenies of the world unite against H-power! LOL

Sometimes you can't win for losing.

Greenies are nothing more than another tool that the Global power brokers are using to try and mollify us sheep (yep, I'm a sheep, but there still be fangs under me gums and guns in the cupboard).

Technology has evolved, science has evolved, not much else has changed. All governments are Despotism. They may be draped in a veneer to make them more palatable to the masses, but it's all about Power and Control. It always has been. At first the power was unconcealed, raw, brutal (and, in fact some are still that way).

As we formed into groups we got leaders. Leaders got power. Leaders craved more power and used groups to take that power from other leaders and made tribes, then countries, then Nations. Basically the speed of conquest (and the occasional uprising) accelerated with the ever increasing speed of technology.

These Despotisms are all vying for total control. The tools change as evolution and technology change, but they are still just as base, just as predictable, just as violent. And now that we've run out of unknown worlds on this planet, we are turning on ourselves. Racism is a form of tribal warfare and control. It's just a poor bastard child of bigotry, which is a cousin of hate, which is the offspring of Greed. Greed desires power to attempt to satiate itself, but Greed doesn't know that power is but a bit of cotton candy in the mix. A tasty goal, but no substance. A fleeting and elusive prey that leaves but an empty space, wanting more. Greed will use all of it's offspring in pursuit of it's prey, but can never catch enough...until it has it all.

I believe that is basically what is going on right now. Freedom is a fleeting concept. Every time you think you have it, someone comes up with a way to either take it from you by force or trick you into giving it away. There is a way to combat it, and our founding fathers left that for us. They did their very best to warn us of this. Not just the Constitution and the Declaration, but in their writings. Even George Washington knew, even as this great republic was being born that the Party structure that ensued would be the death of us.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson. We've become so complacent that none of us are vigilant anymore. We created the media to pay that price for us so we could go about our own minor quests for comfort, prosperity, security. So we gave media our power. Others noticed and set about turning the media against us. We believed what the media feeds us, but they have their own pursuits of power and others we put in power decided to use them against us. We notice, but we had already given them our power of vigilance and decided we no longer wished to pay the price, we had given away the desire to pay, the will to pay and would rather take the easy way out and believe the lies.

It's funny how many times you take things for granted the things you see and hear from those you've given power. I'm guilty of it. And every time I find out about it, I lose a little bit more of my soul.

I care about the environment, as I kinda need it to continue so I can. But my little exercise in trying to allow myself and others to become energy self-sufficient, is to try and take back a little bit of my soul. Believe what can be proved. Take responsibility for your actions. Deal fairly with people. Take umbrage with those who do not deal fairly with you.

I'm tired of letting the rest of the world be responsible for my existence. I have some altruistic motives in trying to do this, but mostly its selfish. I want my soul back.

Politics have become a joke. Our entire government has taken the rights that we demanded, the Constitution that was so cleverly crafted, and slowly but surely undermined it to a point where we can't even stop it. None of our constitutional rights have any meaning anymore. There hasn't been more than a handful of Majors, Justices, Senators, Congressmen or Presidents that has voted what they have told us they were going to do. Since We, The People, are the only authority to which they technically have to bow, doing that which is goes against the reasons we elected them, and breaking the laws of our country are Treason. But We, The People have forgotten how to stop them, and would prefer to turn a blind eye.

We gave the Media our responsibility of vigilance. The media were elevated to petty despots themselves, revelling in the new power they had to manipulate us, to gain more power and the cycle continues. Moguls in the media fed off that power, and, in turn were fed upon by other despots. We chose to not scratch the veneer of sincerity, to not question the lies the siren sings so sweetly. We follow them or are turned on by the vacuous crowds that are already under their sway.

They allow those that create a fuss to be heard. If it doesn't inconvenience them too much, they may allow a small victory, and parade it in front of the masses as proof that the system works and they are still in charge. But if it does inconvenience them, they use the system to bury you in a wave of hyperbole. No individual, armed with just the truth, can any longer even dent the process.

I spent many years safely and contentedly cocooned in my little piece of the matrix of my time. It took a bullet, a near death (not at the same time), two failed marriages and an inquiring mind to break me out. I'm not so sure I want to be out, but I what little I have left of my soul won't let me get back in...and no one offered me the right pill.

But there, in a nutshell is why I want to bring self sufficiency to myself (my little despotism) and to the rest of those who want it. I want to steal a little bit of the power back from the Despots we've given ours to. Everything in my world now needs power of some kind, and I'd like to take some of my power back.

This is probably off-topic, but it goes to the reasoning I want to develop this. I may not have the money, experience, or knowledge to get it done, but it's comforting to have found a group who can help me though some of it.

Now, the one thing that might bring it back on topic, I know that CO2 is only the second biggest of the greenhouse gases, and I took a little time this evening to show one of the older Greenie threads some of the numbers I just pulled up tonight. Almost all of the base data was pulled of Wikipedia, but it goes to to show some perspective on CO2 emissions. You can read the whole post here but I was surprised to find that the breath of humans over a year beat the anthropogenic CO2 emissions of the entire US by several orders of magnitude.

Sorry for getting a little off-topic, but I feel the whole "green" revolution is just an engineered cover for a much more sinister motive.

For Pete's sake, do not talk about it. SHOW IT to us in bloody detail, warts and all, so that we can apply our collective knowledge to get it done.

SHOW US, do not just talk about it!!!

If you are confident, that you are right, fine. If you are wrong, we may be able to help you. But just talking around it will get you nowhere.