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Is Global Warming Real

03/20/2008 3:18 AM

I'm sure I am opening a HUGE can of worms with this, but ... Is Global Warming Real?

WAIT WAIT WAIT ... before you start hurling bricks or worse my way, hear me out.

The science of weather and global conditions are not my skill, and all of what I know comes from the media (Discovery Channel, Nat Geo, etc.). I know the planet is getting warmer. I know the ice is melting (saw this first hand in Alaska a few years ago). I know the storms are increasing because of warmer oceans. I kinow the coral reefs are changing.

I also know we, as a planet, are thoughtless of the global issues as it regards our consumption and disposal and emissions.

BUT ...

I also know that the history of the planet is cyclical and much global change has been experienced without the unfortunate aide of mankind.

My question is, open for what I am sure will be frantic and passionate discussion, IF somehow the negative effects of humanity on the planet were removed, would we still be in a condition of global warming?

We (me too) always benchmark as "normal" what we see within our generally short lifetimes (compared to that of the planet), so we want to keep things the 'same as they are'. But, things have never remained the 'same'.

Truly, I'm really trying to learn more and get a better 'handle' on this.

Thanks.

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#1

Re: Is Global Warming Real

03/20/2008 4:20 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dimming_prog_summary.shtml

Try this site global warming could be small cheese if this global dimming is correct?

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Is Global Warming Real

03/20/2008 4:47 AM

Thanks ... good article with alarming news.

I both hope for and dread the calculation predicting a point of no return, when regardless of any passive efforts, the trend will not reverse.

I hope, hoping such will offer a true 'wake up call'. I dread, fearing the response will not come, or be too late.

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#12
In reply to #1

Re: Is Global Warming Real

09/02/2008 12:52 AM

Hi, davah!

Agreed. Global Dimming is more key to earth's current concerns than Global Warming, and has a proven track record of having an easy fix. Simply remove the particulate air pollution that is causing earth's cloud layers to become giant mirrors reflecting the sun's energy away from the earth's surface.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3310_sun.html

Strangely enough, a major part of the problem-solving with regard to Global Dimming is to reduce and eventually remove the contrails left by jets propelling international and long-distance local plane travel.

I have a potential solution for this, based upon a similar device used in i.c. engines (including airplane engines): the Sparc~Air E.C.D. (Emission Control Device). It concerns a method of fitting the same technology into a jet turbine.

The idea would be to use a set of timed igniters* (Patent: Masters 1994) grounded on limited surfaces to the fuselage to shred the air molecules passing through the intakes and also shred the exhaust molecules between at least one of the subsequent post-ignition turbine stages; and then recombine it via at least one set of porous ceramic blades per stage infused with a wash-coat containing random coatings of platinum, palladium, and rhodium (Patents: Leonard 1994, Lombard 1994, Raj 1992, and Lachman et all, Corning Glass 1987 and 2002).

[*An igniter is a like a spark plug with or without a ball on the end, similar to a Van De Graaf generator cathode, that emits a large lightening-like spark to a local ground situated some distance away from the cathode. Digital timing devices on each igniter allow it to fire separately from or in concert with many other igniters in the same engine up to thousands of times per second. The effect of an igniter is to set off an ionic avalanche in the gases to which it is exposed. In an ionic avalanche, the weaker-valence Oxygen becomes knocked off a gas molecule and becomes either positively-charged or charge-neutral while the gas molecule from which it was ripped becomes negatively or neutrally charged and if negative, hopes to attract something that will balance its charge: i.e. another Oxygen molecule. The word 'avalanche' is used because the free radicals tend to knock other Oxyen valencies off other nearby gas molecules as well as the sparking, and the process looks like a chain reaction. The remaining gas is a charged plasma. After being exposed to an igniter, a full 2% of the resultant gas has become harmless and 98% of the stray carbon particulate removed (independent testing labs connected to a principal air pollution monitoring office in the USA). Upon recombining with help from the catalysts in the porous substrate, as much as 83% of noxious gases have been removed in the recombined effluent...over 40% improvement on the standard non-igniter system, and immensely below Kyoto Protocol requirements.]

The concept is fairly simple, but forging porous ceramic turbine blades that can withstand the enormous centripetal forces of an operating jet engine might be tricky.

Alternatively to the ceramic blades might be blades of usual composition with the ceramic substrate adhered to them; and/or the blade housings and the surrounding cowling (engine housing) and exhaust port of the turbine having a layer of wash-coated substrate, or all of the above.

The coated ceramic substrate blades, etc., as well as a ceramic substrate-coated cowling and exhaust port would act analogously to the post-ignition catalytic converter stage of exhaust treatment in an i.c. configuration.

In addition to shredding the air prior to and post oxidation, the igniters would eliminate most of the unburned hydrocarbons throughout the various combustion stages of the turbine via their additional extreme-temperature burn. Having them in several locations from the intake back to the final turbine stage would also result in a more thorough recombination of exhaust gases --due to a resulting repetitive ionic avalanching of the O2 radicals-- back to a largely innocuous mix; the chief output culprit remaining as CO2.

The remaining problematic solution lies in what to do to remove hopefully most of the CO2 as the sole remaining damaging emitted gas. I've heard of lots of potentially effective CO2 removers, but since the forests are not as lush as they used to be, this one needs to work in a jet engine. Ideas, anyone?

The thumbnail description: You place a massive timed electrical spark in a few places along the path that the passage of the jet exhaust must flow through. The exhaust gases become ionized many, many times per second when the O2 radical is ripped off the various exhaust gas molecules each time the timed spark is fired. Tiny carbon and additive particulates from incomplete combustion of the jet fuel are mainly demolished by the spark (and the tiny carbon, etc. particulates are the main culprit in jet contrail contribution --actually the chief contribution from any pollution source-- to Solar Dimming).

The catalytic converter material --a honeycombed variety of ceramic block containing randomly placed catalytic material throughout its honeycombs-- is situated all around the engine (in the blades, in the cowling, and in the exhaust port), and recombines the gas molecules and O2 in such a way that most of the harmful gases are rendered harmless. For example, CO becomes CO2, NOx becomes N and O, O2 etc.

From the experience of using a similar emission control device with i.c. engines, we know that what comes out the exhaust port of the treated jet engine is mainly non-polluting gases plus CO2 and H2O, but very, very clean in comparison to standard catalytic converters because of the igniters' influence in removing carbon particulate and allowing the catalysts to work with extreme efficiency.

Then, through tough legislation, we eliminate the dispersal of pollution particulate into the air by other pollution generators. Normal precipitation has the opportunity to wash the existing particulate out of the cloud layer. The clouds no longer reflect the sun, and Global Dimming is no more.

Except no one has yet given serious consideration to what happens when the cloud layer that is currently reflecting the sun disappears and the ozone hole we created lets through damaging UV in an undiminished flow. Perhaps we should re-route some unprotected jet engines via the south pole on a regular basis until the holes heal up.

Mark

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#2

Re: Is Global Warming Real

03/20/2008 4:31 AM

<......the history of the planet is cyclical....things have never remained the 'same'...>

So, when will Mankind accept that it too might also be cyclical?

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Is Global Warming Real

03/20/2008 4:51 AM

Everything is ... the sadness is if we willingly shorten the cycle by our ignoring our error

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#5

Re: Is Global Warming Real

03/20/2008 8:09 AM

In my location the last glacier receded 15,000 years ago. Before this there were many glaciers going back a billion years or so. Milllions of people live on the glacial outwash morraine, for now at least.

Traditionally, geologists considered this pattern to be cyclical. More recently, politicians have begun using the climate issue to advance their own agendas usually looking back 100 years more or less. Generally, they seem to want to corrolate adverse trends to the onset in use of fossel fuel as energy.

Data acquisition and climate modelling methods are possible today using super computers. As such, numbers can be crunched to show climate trends. I have read about studies that show warming as well as studies that contradict same.

It depends on what time interval the modeler is trending. Sort of like economics (macro vs. micro). Fibonacci's anyone?

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#6

Re: Is Global Warming Real

03/20/2008 10:08 AM

They say that the dinosaurs died off due to climate changes. I guess if it can get colder at some point in time of earth's history it can get warmer too. The debate is not over is there global warming its over the cause . Some people want the public to think that the cause is all the pollution that man is making. What research I have read shows that the warming trend that we are in started before the industrial revolution. The rate of temperature increase has not changed.

So is there global warming YES, is the root cause by mankind NO, can we do anything to stop it NO.

Now do I beleive that some thing should be done about pollution YES. Kind of like living in a house and asking why take out the trash.

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#7

Re: Is Global Warming Real

03/20/2008 10:52 AM

Who knows! Right now data shows a rapid cooling cycle is in progress that no one predicted!

What does that tell us?

It tells us that we don't understand what is going on.

However, there will always be scientists and politicians that will try to convince you that they do.

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#8

Re: Is Global Warming Real

03/30/2008 1:40 AM

Well, lets see. According to NASA, via data collected by the AQUA satellite, the ocean temperatures have not changed in the time the satellite has been collecting data.

There is a direct correlation between sun spot activity and mean temperatures on earth. The activity is presently receding, which, historically would indicate a coming cooling cycle of earth.

It sure got warm this past winter, huh? Most snow and prolonged cold in decades. It cancelled out 40 years of so-called warming.

Ignoring other factors that may tend to quantify or negate the above, depending on what side of the fence you are on, look at the underpinnings of the global warming movement. If you are the US, Austrailia, or a little bit of Europe, you are going to have to pay dearly for the lack of any formula to negate so-called global warming. The third world is exempt. that means 80% of the rest of the world gets a pass, and we take it in the shorts. You don't need to be smart to figure that one out. That really puts me behind the eight ball, I am just a dummy Mechanical Engineer.I am smart enough to follow the money, because that is what it is all about.

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#9

Re: Is Global Warming Real

09/01/2008 8:05 AM

Is it not typical of mankind to focus on entirely the wrong set of reasons for doing nothing, and another wrong set of reasons for saying it is all too late anyway? We do not have much reason to trust scientists in this because each so called "authority" disagrees with the next. Maybe we should be using our eyes ears and noses a little more and decide for ourselves. It is pure laziness to postulate that the world can remain viable for mankind and other animals if we do nothing about pollution and it is lazy thinking that leads us to believe in technological fixes. Whether global warming is real or not is largely irrelevant. "The Planet" will survive. All human activity is merely a minor irritant to the earth, which will be contemptuously dealt with when overload occurs. It is life on the planet which we need to preserve. Dwelling on whether "we" are responsible for the changes in atmosphere and viability is time wasting and self-indulgent. We simply need to, using known and simple technology, reduce the overall impact on the environment, if only for our economic good. Let's forget the academic arguments - see the smog in Beijing, the industrial mess that is creeping across the third world and the incessant drought and starvation that plagues Africa and Asia. Then think about what to do in an honest and thoughtful way, instead of grasping at the same straws as all the mediocre governments around the world.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Is Global Warming Real

09/01/2008 12:16 PM

Hi, rogwhittle!

Welcome to CR4! That's a great first posting.

I agree with most of your sentiments. The technological benefits of decreased pollution of any sort would be more effective if consciously directed towards saving the ecosystems of the planet. However, people have been given this message for nearly 50 years, and have not responded well to it; either not believing the direct advantages to our own species or preferring instead to accumulate wealth and hoping it would all "go away".

It seems that the current hullaballoo, specious as it is, about somehow being able to prevent global warming through our own tiny participation in it (this time around), has the attention of the corporate sector more strongly in hand because the global warming scare has a direct consequence on wealth accumulation that the environmental crisis --the more 'real' of the two-- does not.

Since the net effect is the same --pollution reduction-- let's not be too quick to condemn the global warming bandwagon.

Mark

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Is Global Warming Real

09/01/2008 1:03 PM

Thank you, Mark,

I think I failed to explain myself fully! I was not necessarily saying that the global warming issues should be condemned or ignored. However, people have been focussing on that. Because of the uncertain nature of the causes of it, there is a tendency to conclude that as we might not have caused it, we have no responsibility to do anything about it. I absolutely agree with you that we should not ignore any aspect of the problem. Too much has been ignored for too long.

Your mention of the corporate sector is interesting, in that most of our industry is carbon oriented. The idea of small scale local energy production is very contradictory to our corporate ways, which are based on the circulation (but not creation) of money. Governments by and large, take more notice of corporations than their voters, sadly.

By the way, this is a great forum and I hope some more people join in.

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Is Global Warming Real

09/02/2008 2:16 AM

I too am not in the circle of experts on climate, weather, etc. Having said that, being a pilot for over 40 years, and a huge part of flying is knowing what the heck you are going to get yourself into, I have a fair idea of some of the relationship of warming and weather cycles.

One the the factors that at one time was a big deal was the hole in the ozone layer. To be quite frank, I am befuddled as to why this aspect of the debate does not come up. In the Southern hemisphere, it is a concern. That alone was what was supposed to cause "great warming". It is amazing to me that more interest is in those things that will make the horn blowers money.

Being a skeptic, (an experienced optimist) I read between the lines probably more than I should. I compare the issue of ISO 9000 and AS2000. The advocates have made a hell of a lot of money. The signatories use the paper trail to hide serious problems that the paper covers up. To tie the two subjects together, one only has to remember that a camel is a horse designed by committee.

We all should be recognizant of how we use and abuse the sand lot we live in. We also have to be aware that this old earth is in a constant state of flux. I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between.

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