The Price of Petrol

Agreed that oil companies are out to make a profit. Our government allowed to many mergers in the oil industry. They control the price and we don't, nor does our government have the power to control them. They are going to make money for their stockholders. Maybe the only power we have is to go out and start using alternative fuels as much as we can. At least these produce home grown jobs. Being green maybe irrelevant. That is why I heat my house with pellets and cereal grain for the last 5 years and yes I am saving some money also.

GA

You guys have it all wrong. The oil companies are making record profits because the (shadow) government won't let them reinvest the profits in new refineries. The oil companies have no choice but to redistribute the profit to the shareholders since they cannot reinvest in infrastructure.

No new refinery has been built in 36 years in the US.

Only the revamps. I just came back to Houston, Texas after 21 months assignment of revamping the exising refinery and putting new units including ULSD plant in Louisiana. An added capapcity of 20000 bbl/day of sour crude to 42000 bbl/day sweet crude unit.

You are right no grass root refinery in about 40 years. No wonder those Saudi's are asking us now to expand our refinery capacities if we want to stabilze the cost of gas in USA.

Regards;

Nadeem

05202008

Its true that no new refineries have been built, but overall refining capacity has increased markedly because the existing refineries have been enlarged, and this has been accomplished by the reinvestment of profits. To me this seems like a specious argument fostered by the oil companies, designed to discredit environmentalism and government regulation, and to conceal the fact that it is more profitable to game the system by limiting the supply of petroleum products than it is to increase the sales volume.

I am involved in starting a new company and I know why you don't want to start a new refinery in the US. PERMITS and REGULATIONS and NiMBY (SP). Getting gov permits and following all the regs is a nightmare and a terrible expense. Then you have the "Not In My Back Yard" people that protest even when someone is building a house much less a refinery. The oil companys will also never leave a refinery because of the EPA cleanup costs would be a nightmare. I know of a power company that has stopped production of a coal power plant over 10 years ago and they refuse to sell the property due to the mercury and other pollutants on the site.

I don't know why you think it is fostered by oil companies, they have announced every refinery expansion they have done. The Motiva Pt Arthur expansion going on right now that will double the size of that refinery has been in all the papers and on the news..

Your ratio of good answers to total posts is already far better than mine, but I feel compelled, nevertheless, to give you a GA for this post.

It's not just a matter of a company making profit. The oil companies these last couple years are boasting about having huge profits.

I see that as the risk of letting everyone know they are profiting is good advertising to sell stocks and their stock values going up.

Congress can question them all they want, the oil company tycoons just laugh at them.

The oil company's response to Congress was that they know it's hurting the people in the lower income brackets but there's nothing they could do about it.

Boycott Exxon and force them to make some changes and the other companies will follow.

I firmly believe they are gouging us and getting away with it because they have cronies in office in both the Presidential and Vice Presidential seats. Condolizza Rice was a CEO of an Oil Company. Bush owns interest in an oil company and Cheney owns oil wells.

And I'll tell you Bush has no interest in being Green. When he was Governor of Texas, he relaxed pollution restrictions on the Companies in Texas, causing much of the natural water sources in Texas to become polluted.

Do you have proof of that? I think that you have been taken in by an Area 51 scare!!!! Sorry......

By the way, proof is not just a few words on a blog......

I can confirm the tanker backup at the Chesapeake Bay in '73. I lived in Hampton at the time. Hampton Roads harbor was full of laden tankers and they were even anchored off the Virginia Capes in the open ocean because they were not allowed up the Bay to Baltimore. I saw them first hand as I was a flight crew member for a gov't agency at the time.

It was a sad, contrived crisis, IMO.

I bought my latest bike, a 750cc, two years ago in anticipation of these gas prices. My 4 wheeler sits for months and months at a time. I was not particularly happy the other day when I finally broke $10US to fill my 3.5 (with .5 reserve) gallon tank. BUT, it was a lot better than the $60/tank I would be putting in my 4 wheeler.

I would have given you 2 x GA, but it (CR4) won't let me!!! So 1 x is all you get Buddy.

GA

GA

Spread out population???

We are a bigger landmass than continental US with the population of NY city.

Late teens, before TV was in every home here, we did 250 MILES round-trip to go to the movies.

Even now we think nothing of

jumping in the car/plane and going 600MILES for a birthday/ family event. Ridiculous really, but distances here are the enemy.

I guess everything is relative. I am always astounded when I realize that Germany is the size of the state of Oregon which is barely a medium sized state in the USA. They have 60 million Germans in that small of a space. Mass transportation is much more do-able in that area than your country or many low populated areas like the Western states of the US. The whole state of Wyoming is around 400,000 people.

Necessity is the mother of invention and there will be some cool stuff coming out in the next few years. I don't believe that there will be one magic bullet but many smaller ones that will help the situation.

do not forget that we have somethng called "special interest groups" that are very very strong, one example of this is that we did have much more public transort in the past like trains that carried trainloads of people with much less waste of energy and also trolly buses in cities but companies like Gerneral Morots and Firestone Tires bought them and dismantled them so they could sell more automobiles and more tires for them

vshwn7@aol.com

"Wake up, little Su(v)sie, wake up!"

You wrote:-

China is doing nothing to encourage conservation of oil. You want to blame the high cost of oil on someone, blame it on China. Maybe the world will put some pressure on them to start conserving.

You are of course perfectly right in your comments but:-

From the country that brought V8 motors to the masses, its a bit late to start blaming other countries.......its sort of "the Pot calling the Kettle black" so to say.

Until the US has crushed the last V-8 and instigated proper fuel economy into say at least 65% of the cars on the road, as a country, not as a State!, one should be more careful of what one says.....

Also, too many people in the USA change their mineral oil out at 3-4,000 miles, instead of using a Synthetic oil for 20,000 miles or more between changes.....

By the way, I have had the synthetic oil argument already on CR4, some of you US Guys just do not see a reason to change anything that Grandpa instigated 50 years ago, it worked then.......so to say.........so forget starting that up again. I personally am fully happy with Synthetic as many of you already know.....!

....few cars really need mineral oil...also driving cars with smoky/oily engines is also bad...off the road with them and junk them if you are not prepared to have the engine rebuilt!!! Its awful for the environment.

I am sure that many of you will now try and pound me with "good reasons" for continuing with mineral oil and frequent replacements......I will just ignore all of it, so save your breath!! and fingers!

Andy, as always you have stated it well! You will rile up some feathers - but good -we need that once in awhile.

I have used synthetic oil for decades now - but because it helps mileage and protects the engine better.

As far as waste oil from cars, here in the US it is all recycled and used, so it is not wasted. Some use it as heating fuel.

Hi Russ, I agree with you fully, but for the environment, burning waste oil is appallingly bad.....less waste oil is better!

Pellets are better!!! As your Avatar suggests!!!

Hello Andy,

Until today I haven't seen you on in awhile or maybe we've just been posting in different threads.

There was an 8 cylinder engine that was invented in the 1930's that got over 50 mpg. Standard Oil bought the rights to that engine and buried it because they didn't want fuel efficient engines on the streets, they were afraid of loosing profits.

Why bring up 8 cylinders anyway.

BMW 850 has a 12 cylinder engine.

You wrote:-

BMW 850 has a 12 cylinder engine.

True, they sell a few in the USA. Jaguar also, BUT 65% of the population do not drive them!!!

You have people in the USA swanning around in 20 year old V8s......with appalling MPGs, that will at least be fixed gradually by the high petrol price......

I have US colleagues who feel that if they drive a V-6, and get 25MPG, they are doing something for the environment!!!!!! In relation to the old V-8s they are, but they are so far away from what good modern smaller engines can do.....

How about 4 cylinder engines and 50+MPG for a large proportion of the population? Now that would be environmentally good.....perhaps we will see a vast change over the next 10 years......

Andy,

Where do we find such a car as you spoke of "How about 4 cylinder engines and 50+MPG for a large proportion of the population?" Our small tin can cars barely get 30 MPG. We have to go to hybrids to get 45 MPG and the extra costs negates the fuel savings. We need changes by Detroit!!

One way is Diesel!!

Turbo Diesel at that......mine does on average 6 liter/ 100 Km. If I am doing a steady 160 KMH (100MPH), no wind to speak of, then it only gets about 9 L/100KM....

At US speeds allowed , you would get 6 L/100KM or even better.......

Its 140 BHP 2 Liter Turbo Diesel from VW......

A further plus point of Diesel is that it seldom explodes for any reason, at worst it burns....very high flash point temperature, over 40°C if I remember correctly....petrol is like -60°C..............(that was from memory, exactly correct it is not!)

The problem is they won't sell these in the US. We have heard for many years that someone buys a car that gets great gas mileage and the dealership says "whoops we gave you the wrong fuel system". They get the car back with US parts on and the mileage is horrible like everyone else's. We can not buy your VW with that kind of mileage here in the US. 30 MPG is the about as good as it gets - and that sucks.

I drive a big Buick Park Avenue with a 3.8 liter and get 30 MPG yet the small Fords, Chevy, and Toyota cars only get 30 to 35 MPG. Go figure!!

Hi Andy,

.............very high flash point temperature, over 40°C if........

In Australia, the minimum Flash Point of automotive distillate is 61,5⁰C, but generally the Flash Point is around 90⁰C, which I thought was the European Standard as well. I may well be wrong there but American standard Flash Point is around 40⁰C.

As I understand fuels with a Flash Point of below 23⁰C are classed as Highly Flammable, fuels between 23⁰C and 61,5⁰C are Flammable and fuels with a Flash Point of over 61,5⁰C are classed as combustible fuels.

Andy, you didn't get those figures from an American publication did you. because not long ago an automotive "engineer" from one of the motoring organisations in Queensland when writing an article, in one of the motoring magazines ,on the benefits of diesel power used the 40⁰C. I rang him and questioned his figure, he said "Oh shit! I was using an American magazine"

The Americans MUST be different, whether its this, or spelling, or weights and measures, screw threads etc.etc,.

You could well be right! Thanks for the correction.

I like the point that the flammability of the fuel I use is so low in relation to petrol.....I am sure that over the years that lives have been saved in accidents, just because the car/vehicle that crashed was using Diesel instead of petrol.....

I like Diesel best (for several other reasons too) in spite of the fact that you need to wash your hands after filling up, that is a small price to pay! (and who is to know what germs get passed around on the petrol pumps just because you do not need to wash your hands afterwards!!)

Just got back from Holiday, sorry I was so slow in replying.

Andy,

GA!

They are changing over to more efficient vehicles and the rate of change is picking up. I only get over there about every 3 yrs and it has become dramatic, the rate of change.

15 yrs ago it was rare to see a Jap/Euro car in a sea of 'fullsize' autos.

Last year my impressions were exactly the reverse. Rare to find a big auto on the roads. The switch to cars the size you and I call normal is,as I said drammatic, to me.

They have, however, seem to have compensated with the size and proliferation of those damned 'trucks'. Dual cab, long bed, dual wheels, 8.2 litre v8's!!!!! It seems that they're 25feet long. They're everywhere. Thankfully the car lots are the resting places for the old 'full size' cars.

That's how it appears to me.

Cheers,

Stu.

Sounds better than my last visit to Colorado about 4 years ago.....maybe they are learning!!!

GA

The trailer is a useful thing (I have a caravan and a small trailer for the same reasons) that extends the size of the car, but only when needed. The trailer, used carefully, will outlive many cars and is therefore a truly viable alternative to a big thirsty car!!

Mine is 4' by 8' (the size of standard building panels in the US) which means that it is more versatile than many pickup truck variations in which the bed is shortened to allow more cabin space. It also folds, so that I can put it in the garage when I'm not using it (if only there were space in my garage!!).

Way to go Ken.

It's a practice we've had here since whenever.

I daily tow a specially made 7ft X 5ft single axle "Softrider" trailer behind my 1300cc Toyota Starlet (yes I know it's a girls car). Low resistance tyres too. I designed and built the trailer. It's a flatbed which converts to a box. The car has a 660kg towing maximum. The car has just clocked 300,000km, and, dare I say it, is as good as new. Maintenace is the key, as you know. Original clutch.

I bought this car because it was the smallest car Toyota offered here in Aus. Ive always enjoyed small cars, not only for their economy. I came up through GO-KARTS, and TQ's.

'Nough said!

Before that I ran four successive Suzukis each to a quarter million.

I've sold off a 'collection', and now keep one compact Nissan a 'family' car.

Cheers

Stu

Amen.

If you liked it - why not give him the "GA" award like I did.

Whoops -- thought I did.

It is easy to blame China for rising fuel consumption and emissions. However since so many of our goods are produced in China, all we have done is to export our own fuel consumption and emissions.

China is doing nothing to encourage conservation of oil. You want to blame the high cost of oil on someone, blame it on China.

This is nonsense. The Chinese fuel efficiency standards for cars are more stringent than the US standards.

You might read this article from Industry Week to get in touch with reality. Many manufacturers lobbied against the Chinese standards because they claimed they would be too hard to meet. Per the article:

• "Furthermore, the new Chinese fuel economy standards would affect companies differently. "GM is likely to face the highest cost in the industry to comply with both phase one and phase two standards because its vehicles have to cover the largest gaps in fuel efficiency to become compliant with the new regulations," the report stated, adding that Peugeot Citroen, Ford and Toyota are best positioned to meet the requirements."

The US energy consumption per capita is more that five times higher than that in China. China is also more efficient than we are in the amount of energy consumed per dollar of gross national product. The US consumes 25% of the world's energy, but has 5% of the world's population. The figures indicate that perhaps the world should put some pressure on the US to start conserving.

Okay Ken..................pity that they didn't do something about their new, cheap inefficient, polluting power stations.

As you rightly said the USA wants to get its act together..........and quickly, especially if she wants to remain a "world leader."

Hi MOBI,

In the US we don't have a coherent "energy policy", but we do have forecasts. The DOE projects that coal will provide even more of our energy needs in 2030 than it does today. Today just under half our electricity is generated with coal. By 2030 we will be getting 57% of our (then much greater) needs from coal. Needless to say, we don't have a clue re what we are going to do with all the CO2.

I doubt that a modern Chinese coal fired plant is substantially worse in CO2 emissions than the plants we have in the US, and suspect that their modern plants are more efficient than many of the old plants we have here.

As you rightly said the USA wants to get its act together..........and quickly, especially if she wants to remain a "world leader."

I'd replace the word "wants" with "needs." There are far too many people who, like janissaries, look to blame other countries, rather than simply looking around at what we are doing. Many of us drive 6000 lb vehicles to take the 170 lb driver, alone, to work -- and then whine about the cost of gas. If we reduce our demand for gas the price will drop.

(BTW, lest you think that Exxon is run by raving lunatics, no, they did not dump truckloads of gasoline into the desert in the 1970's, per janissaries' claim.)

Nuclear power could be developed and coal use could be reduced. I am confident of the disposal safety deep in the mountains. I do not fear. This is incredibly being over-regulated and should be opened up like North American oil deposits. I would like mnore refineries anyhow...but save that for later...

We can make this (fission) the "charging source" for our electrics...as opposed to charging up our electric cars with coal power.

Which leads me to say simply -that the uninformed public just thinks the juice in the outlet is clean and somehow just arrives. SO clean- there is no emissions for their "car"- so many dunces assume it is a perfect thing. Many of these "uninformed" begin to see the issues clearly themsleves when asked where does the power come from. They still cannot answer- and are soemwhat amazed where it does come from. Once told how their electric car/hybrid is really run by relatively dirty (although improving) coal fired powerplants- they begin to grasp what the situation really is. The reduction in unwanted gases are just now controlled in the coal burning power plant- as opposed to out the tailpipe.

You're basing your point of view from a magazine article.

I base mine from an argument the Japanese had about Chinese being responsible for the increase in fuel costs in their country.

England has plenty of production in the North Sea....

I was thinking along the lines of an Island dependent upon the mainland, I forgot about BP.

The population of China is 1,3 billion which should be supplied by all for human everyday needs. And Chinese people's needs are very very modest to compare with not only developed countries. They would be argue that they have right to go the same way that rest of world to get a prosperity they really deserved.

Maybe it sounds strange for someone they need petroleum as well. Some 15 yrs ago Beijing was bicycle city --- now it's inundated by millions of cars. Yes it influence on global oil demands and pollution at the same aspect as in any megacity. And as I know their authority try to cope with problem of pollution the same way as their counterparts.

But they are opened to dialogue and accept all concerns about global warming and other like things being ready to change structure and culture of their society. They have common sense --- it's obvious! Yes there are some issues in their politic that shouldn't be accepted, but what I noted they always do that said.

Yes we (most of countries) are their goods invaded . But I really prefer to be invaded just by their goods and even workforce(very good and skilled) than something else that they could for instance offer in 197s.

Nobody abolish honest competition on market. Competition is to go along cooperation. WW2 should be last in human history.

The price of a barrel of gas is so high from the over consumption of China. China is the second largest oil consumer in the World. China is doing nothing to encourage conservation of oil. You want to blame the high cost of oil on someone, blame it on China. Maybe the world will put some pressure on them to start conserving.

>>>>>>>>>

It is doubtful that any world body will pressure China to do anything. To be sure China is an awakening giant just by the shear number of it's population. I think not long ago China came to a cross roads when millions of people began seeking a higher standard of living. How does that go - How are you going to keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen Puson? (Quote from M*A*S*H.)

I think millions of people began to demand a higher standard of living and the choice was to find a way to achieve that or face a revolt. That is at the heart of why China is booming now.... they have discovered Capitolism.

Back to the point of pressuring China. I doubt that will ever happen because it's always been too popular to demand that the United States be held responsible for all of the world's problems (a-la the Kyoto Acords which are aimed squarely at tearing down the US economic engine yet exempts China and most of the rest of the world.)

As far as depleting the oil supply and leaving our grand children with none. Weren't we told in the '70's during the contrived energy crisis that we only had 10 years, 20, years or 30 years of oil? That didn't seem to be the case did it?

The quality and effectiveness of the energy systems that do not depend on oil will be directly proportional to the argument presented by the market. Right now the driving force behind advances in alternative energy is Green Hystaria which I think is more of an emotional response than a logical response. When we are truely out of oil that will be the driving force behind development but we aren't there yet.

Honestly I think we are missing the boat in not finding effective ways to use the coal reserves we are sitting on. But coal has been branded as bad and the Green Hystaria will not allow development of coal based systems. Once we get past the Green Hystaria and are faced with a real, not manufactured crissis I think coal will look a lot more attractive.

Travis

Apply Chinese laws to the US market and probably more than 50% (exact figure unknown, sadly) of the cars in the USA will not be allowed to drive on th roads anymore.......wow!! More than 4 cylinders and you are probably out of the equation.....

Apply Chinese laws to the US market and probably more than 50% (exact figure unknown, sadly) of the cars in the USA will not be allowed to drive on th roads anymore.......wow!! More than 4 cylinders and you are probably out of the equation.....

>>>>>>>

Sometime over the weekend I was flipping channels and came onto the program on the National Geographic channel about the port of Los Angeles. They had a segment following a Nike tennis shoe from factory to port. They showed some clips of the highway system in China and commented that it was modeled after the US interstate highway system and the only real difference was that the lanes were about a foot wider than in the US.

The clips they showed of the traffic in China (don't recall what city or provence it was) looked just like any major city in the US - including the average vehicle size.

Travis

But maybe without the US average size of either motor or consumption.......?

Andy,

I knew you could not pass on that one! Who else could afford what the US has done. I talked to a friend as he filled up his Chevy pickup truck with $97 worth of gas today. Most of us are all saying "OUCH" when we fill up our gas tanks. Their will be many opportunities to sell fuel efficient cars in the US.

Seems that the US is not the only country complaining. This article would suggest prices for diesel in the UK are $9.00 USD per gallon...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7420792.stm

NO,NO,NO,NO!

Put your six-guns away.

Have you read the ACTUAL info from China recently?

They, above all, do realise the need for conservation.

But it's the people, who are now discovering the lifestyle to which you have become accustomed, who are driving this. And it's their right to do so. The legislators are having a very hard time of it keeping a lid on it, and legislating the usage. Wasteful vehicles are not allowed.

Stu.

NO,NO,NO,NO!

Put your six-guns away.

>>>>>>

Gun? Singular? You assume I have only one.

Let's see, in one gun safe (one safe is for slug guns and the other is for scatter guns) we have a Colt Python .375 and a Colt Anaconda .44 magnum, a Marlin bolt action .22, another Marlin rifle, a Rugar .22's (those are the boy's guns), and two Winchester .3006's (one is mine and one is my wife's).

In the scatter gun safe is a Browning Gold 12 ga gas operated shot gun, (2) Mossburg 12 ga over and under shot guns, and a couple of 20 ga shot guns - don't recall who made them.

I am chewing on adding a Smith & Wesson Model 500 to the collection next. Talk about a big boom!

Travis

Travis, Although technically your post is off topic, I gave you a GA, because I am collector myself.

The Second Amendment is the one that makes the other nine possible.

Blue

Maybe your right about using coal in the future. What a great world we will have then. Already our major river that we live by is polluted with mercury from coal and we are to limit the fish we eat from there. And then there is that acid rain and the arsenic and lead that coal spughs out into the surrounding area. Why do you suppose that put electrical power plants out in the middle of no where and run them at 25% efficiencies? Why do you think they put their smoke stacks hundreds of feet in the air - to disperse the pollutants over a large area so no one will notice. If they used the waste-heat they produce they could become 75% efficient but no one in the cities wants the pollution so they dump it on us living out in the rural areas.

Once we are out of oil we will be in deep dodo!! If we collected every plant, branch and twig that grew in a year across the US and used it for energy we would not have enough to support ourselves for energy and of course we wouldn't have any food to eat either because we used it all to run our automobiles. We had better wake up and quit blaming Bush. We are the ones that are using all the energy and creating the price increases.

GA.

.....and dead right too!!

One reason is that the Saudis have seen the need to conserve.

GOO-GOO GA-GA GA-GA GA-GA GA-GA GOO-GOO

Here in Toronto, Ontario area we have been paying about 1.24/litre up to 1.38 for high grade. Been about 1.10-1.15/litre for the last few years.

Just returned from Toronto and did indeed pay 1.24/litre

I found this on the MSNBC site. I think it tell a lot more about gas prices than we have been lead to beleive.

Just curious. What year is this from? It's been a while since the US pump price for gas was $2.23.

you are lucky how u get so cheap, when a cost a tea is so much america, petrol price is less. i think arab countries are giving free or oil dealing worldwide is based on us$ may this reason. u r getting so cheap comparatively to other products.how much u will spend if u goto hotel? analysis how you get oil so cheap and inform us , so indians will follow the same.

-------------------------

In INDIA cost of one tea is 2rupees, whereas 1 litre petrol is 55 rupees.

compare the cost of living.

here average people monthly earning will be around 200 $ compare ur country earnings.

so you r in better side

America doesn't have SQUAT to complain about Re: the rest of the world-- the post-WWII world was laid out by America, so we have no right to bitch about taxes, terrorism, immigration, gay marriage, and a host of other things. Right now we should 1) End all subsidies to giant energy and agribusiness companies; 2) Triple fuel and road use taxes; 3) CONFISCATE all energy company earnings more than 5% over costs--better still, NATIONALIZE the energy companies.

It is absolutely correct that Americans have no concept of the true costs of our energy usage--America is 6% of world population but consumes almost 25% of world resources--gasoline prices do not reflect the cost in lives and treasure that America spends to fight wars in the Middle East for the benefit of energy companies and "defense" contractors.

Rightwing Evangelical Republicans claim that half of the price paid in Europe for gasoline is taxes--but most of Europe has useful and practical means to get around without a car--cities like London charge "outrageous" fees to bring your car into the city, which is AS IT SHOULD BE!.

But, of course, if you are one of the one-half-of-one-percent who control 95% of the wealth, it's all going according to plan, more or less, accept that it's not fast enough--piddling little wars that only kill hundreds of thousands, "natural" disasters that take out 200,000 at a time, that's not quick enough. The Corporate NeoFascist, NeoConservative owners of the world all agree; "There's nothing wrong with a planet of 6.5 billion people that getting rid of 6 billion of them can't fix."

In a Capitalistic economy like we have in the US, the words "Nationalization" which means Government contol of anything is termed "Social" and that word is taboo. We privatize everytyhing, including Wars and fighting soldiers as you see in Iraq, where companies like Haliburten and Blackwater have more leeway than the regular army people fighting and dying in this war. This is our way, you take it or leave it. We do not believe, unfortunately, that our government should have any social responsibility and that is why we do not have any workable Health Care system like all of the Industrial countries in the World have.

vshwn7@aol.com

Vishmayor,

Don't be bashful and just come and say what you mean!! .

What i couldn't firgure out was whether you like capitalism - or disliked its weakness - or both. The health care issue is a huge problem here in the US but I hate having the government telling me what to do also. Just don't get sick I guess.

America doesn't have SQUAT to complain about Re: the rest of the world-- the post-WWII world was laid out by America, so we have no right to bitch about taxes, terrorism, immigration, gay marriage, and a host of other things. Right now we should 1) End all subsidies to giant energy and agribusiness companies; 2) Triple fuel and road use taxes; 3) CONFISCATE all energy company earnings more than 5% over costs--better still, NATIONALIZE the energy companies.

>>>>>>>

You have to be kidding.

I do agree that all subsidies should be ended.

Triple fuel and road taxes? Why - just so the government can have a bigger pool of money to squander? The way government budgeting works is that if a department or agency does not spend all of their budget in a fiscal year, then next year it will have a cut in funding. A cut in funding as defined in Washington means that next year instead of getting an 8% increase it will only get a 6% increase - but it will get an increase none the less. No agency wants to have a "cut" in funding so they do their dead level best to spend every penny before the end of their fiscal year. There is no compunction for government to reign in spending so no matter how big the pile of money is they have to draw from will never be enough.

Confiscate profits over 5% of cost? Why 5%? Why not 3% or 2%? Oh, you get to that by suggesting to nationalize the energy companies.

Why stop at energy companies? Why not nationalize the agribusinesses too? While you are at it, why not nationalize the auto industry, trucking and everything else? Why target the energy companies?

What's wrong with a company making a 6, 8, 10% or even larger profit? The fact is, they got it, you want it and that sets the price. The same holds true to how prices are set for every other product and service. Someone has it and someone else wants it and how badly they want it sets the price.

Why stop at nationalizing the oil industry? Why not globalize the entire oil industry? While you are at it, why stop at the oil industry? Why not globalize all industry and businesses?

Here's why. We have seen how time after time comunism and socialism have failed time after time. People who still push ideas of socialism and comunism (which in reality have a lot in common - chiefly the idea of having the masses looking to government for all needs and solutions) don't think that they are flawed ideas and flawed systems. They just think that it (comunism and socialism) haven't been given a good enough chance to succeed, and that if they could just have a crack at it then it would work.

When you remove the idea of reward in direct proportion to work then output will dwindle to the lowest common denominator. Why should I work harder and screw on the tooth paste caps faster than they guy next to me when I will be paid (rewarded) the same as the guy next to me who does the bare minimum? (This example is from literature - can you identify where it came from?)

Regan had it exactly right, "Government is not the answer, it is the problem."

Travis

Good Answer Travis. Government is one of the biggest problems.

Dragon

If Govt is the problem, why not privatize it too? Take bids from people and the one who pays most, like an auction and hand over the keys of the country to him or her, but there may be 'No bid' contracts too and what do you do then? And this would lead to Dictatorship The only solution to a good Govt is Some social responsibilty like the Social Security we have, affordable health care, Security of the Nation and not something like Communism as was practiced in the USSR

vshwn7@aol.com

Vishmayor, I was being somewhat facetious, it really is not the government or system of government but the individuals that have become entrenched in the system. They are using the system to essentially rape the populace.

Through privileges that they are not entitled to but have usurped, they bleed the public trough dry and then have the gall to say "We need more!"

The United States (as the Thirteen Colonies) went to war with England (a true Superpower in the 1700's) over less than %1 of the taxes that we endure today, although that revolution was fought for other reasons as well.

As for a Communist state in the United States: I will drag my paraplegic a** to the place were I can do the most damage with my rifle and knowledge of explosives and either end that threat or be terminated myself.

Cordially Dragon

HI

I live in France .

this day the price of gasoline is 1.45euro/liter.

so 8.58usd/gallon.

It's very expensive

Thanks for all for your very interesting discussions

It's probably time to let the oil companies be treated like the tabacco companies, and let the several states decide if there is a lawsuit there--much better than the idiotic idea of suing OPEC--while we're at it, lets sue the Saudi government because 90% of the highjackers who crashed planes into buildings were from that country [let the insurance companies sue to get back what they were finally forced to pay out over the World Trade Center]

How's the petrol prices now............with a new high of AUS$135.00/barrel.

In Oz as of today, in Adelaide, regular unleaded AUS$1,66/i-litre and distillate AUS$1,80/litre and they said there is every possibility it will rise to over AUS$2,00/litre for standard unleaded.................I wonder if I can still ride a push bike!!!!!!!

They blame China and India, with their insatiable thirst for oil, due to their rapidly expanding economies.....................and China is hording oil for the Olympics so that they will not have power outages................don't make I laugh, pee I self, run down I leg, wet I sock.

Now they're talking on TV news about $12/gal. coming to Calif. within next few years. Holy mother of all crudities!

Couldn't it just be that the Muslim world has at last seen its chance to do the will of Allah and convert/dominate the world? Either prostrate for God, or prostrate at the oil pump? Or both?

....................oh!!!!!!..............that was prostrate..........whew!!!!!!!!!

I am not a Moslem, but I have many friends who are, of them, more than 99% think the same as the rest of us, if not more.

They are a loving family orientated community generally speaking.

Its only a tiny percentage who are causing 100% of the problems, sadly......

Which is exactly why I started this thread John... Bravo and a GA!

Hear! Hear!

Stu

The supply and demand does not change, or has not changed nearly as much as the prices are going up which tells me that we are getting taken while the oil companies are getting rich. If we could understand how the sun burns maybe we could solve our energy problem. My thought is that in the future we will discover a way to mix 2 or 3 common unlikely substances together and we will have an abundance of cheap fuel.