Previous in Forum: HVAC   Next in Forum: Coursework
Close
Close
Close
18 comments
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - BSME Clarkson University 1992 Engineering Fields - Software Engineering - BSME Clarkson University 1992 Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - DataRock 1.0

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 388
Good Answers: 3

"Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/02/2008 10:41 AM

Was listening to the coverage of the earthquake in China over the past number of weeks, and thought I heard a change in the standard pronunciation and spelling for a province in China I visited a few years ago from the announcers on NPR. As a 40-something, it got me thinking about who sets the rules we all should follow (at least here in the Northeast) on things like this, once we're done with school.

I cite employers, NPR (Jeff Nunnberg in particular - I commute quite a bit), BBC, Microsoft (courtesy of their spelling and grammar checking products), my local newspaper (via the web), and a few of the authors I've read over the past number of years.

I'm curious to know what other folks here in the US Northeast (I live/work outside Albany), or elsewhere, cite. No Sorbonne for Northeast English, so does anything go once you're a grown-up in New York?

- April05

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Power-User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 479
Good Answers: 9
#1

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/02/2008 12:30 PM

I site employers

It appears that you meant to say "cite".

I'm curious to know what other folks here in the US Northeast (I live/work outside Albany), or elsewhere site...............

It appears again that you meant to say "cite".

As far as setting rules as to how people in Albany spell or pronounce Chinese, I know of no such Authority. We are not as yet a "Nanny" state. It does not "take a village" to raise a child in spite what some of the political candidates from this area (Westchester County, NY) claim.

It is unlikely that Microsoft spell-checkers have up to date information on the recent China incident. Perhaps Office 2010 will implement these changes.

Register to Reply
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - BSME Clarkson University 1992 Engineering Fields - Software Engineering - BSME Clarkson University 1992 Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - DataRock 1.0

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 388
Good Answers: 3
#2
In reply to #1

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/02/2008 12:42 PM

Thanks for the "cite" correction - should have spell-checked that one!

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#6
In reply to #1

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/02/2008 6:32 PM

Hey eriew, in 1775 or any other time, where is Battle Road, Massachusetts? I believe I've visited all the 352 cities and towns in MA, or are you one of these guys:

http://www.freefoto.com/browse/1212-13-0?ffid=1212-13-0

I think that's probably Lexington or Concord, a long way, (several days march), from Albany, NY.

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 479
Good Answers: 9
#10
In reply to #6

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/03/2008 11:59 AM

Mass Avenue (Route 2A) essentially. Many Towns and militia involved over the 22 mile stretch.

The history books don't mention the asymetrical fight from Concord back to Boston as the Redcoats retreated and were picked off by militia hiding behind stone walls. I believe it is for this reason that we have the right (Second Ammendment) to bear arms in the USA still to this day.

Go to the reanactments next April 19 and see for yourself. Get up a 5 AM and march there like hundreds of others do each year. BYOBPM (bring your own black powder and musket).

Battle Road is a National Park not far from Grafton. Mostly visited by tour groups from Europe and Asia, although people from Central Mass would probably be welcome as well.

If you really get adventurous, visit Boston. Paul Revere's house is still in tack as is the Old North Church. While on Battle Road, be sure to check out the spot where he was captured that day by the occupation forces.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Centurion, South Africa
Posts: 3921
Good Answers: 97
#3

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/02/2008 2:01 PM

1) The word global give me the creeps. Something happening in a part of America is forced down the throats of the rest of the world and it is expected to be accepted by all.

2) A language like English is living and it will take the nature of the peoples using it. Therefore if it suits the Chinese to change the order of words why should anybody else complain when they can understand the meaning?

3) Fortunately it changes. Have thy tried Shakespeare lately?

__________________
Never do today what you can put of until tomorrow - Student motto
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: South-east corner of Spain 50 48 49.24N 2 28 27.70W
Posts: 1508
Good Answers: 31
#4

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/02/2008 4:42 PM

The people who influence the language the most are everyday people like you and me who hear a new expression and use it themselves! This new expression could stay local to you and your friends or go global! Oh contrare, I hear you cry!

__________________
“It's kind of fun to do the impossible.” Walt Disney
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#5

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/02/2008 6:07 PM

I'm always amused by the way people pronounce the English language. But when your trying to pronounce people and places, all bets are off, it's just too subjective.

Reminds me of a Scottish news reader reporting a story from Houston, TX. She pronounced it "Hoo-ston", which is correct if you where reporting from the Scott town of Houston, ( lovely, go there if you ever can ). However Texans pronounce it "You-ston". They are both correct.

I live near a small city, Worcester, MA, that is here pronounced "Wis-ta". Go figure.

Anyway, coming up with pronunciations of places in China, even the Chinese would dispute that, so what are my chances?

My disclamer: If I cpelt anything rong, or used the dreaded letter "s" in the place of a soft "c", or if my fonetic spellins are way off, corect them in you mind, and everytink will be OK.

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#7

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/03/2008 6:52 AM

It would seem that the broadcast media have a profound effect on the globalization of the English language. I suspect the process began with the dominance of the American movie industry, followed by the dominance of American Television. I have noticed over the years that even BBC has adopted "Southern California" vernacular (although the Queen's English, or something emulating it, seems to still imply a bit more sophistication).

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#8

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/03/2008 7:57 AM

My personal rule is to always use the local pronounciation (if I can). It's their town - they have a right to say how it sounds.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Guru
Philippines - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Who am I?

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northern Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 2127
Good Answers: 51
#9

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/03/2008 10:31 AM

I've read somewhere that if you were somehow able to go back in time to England in the Middleages, you'd be hard pressed to understand what people were saying. The English language back then is very different from the one spoken today.

Languages evolve over time. A certain country gets conquered and its language either disappears or adopts words from the conqueror's own. It's also possible that the conqueror's language will adopt the other's words.

In the Philippines, there is a diversity of cultures from both the East and the West. In a certain part of Southern Philippines, the people seem to speak Spanish except, if you know how to speak Spanish, you'll wonder what some of the words mean! It's actually a mixture of several languages and dialects with Spanish as the dominant one. In other places, you'll find similar situations with regards to the dialect or language.

Who are the influencers? It's everyone!

__________________
Miscommunication: when what people heard you say differs from what you said. Make yourself understood.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Technical Fields - Education - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 367
Good Answers: 1
#11

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/03/2008 2:16 PM

People, Peoples? People!!!!

Being an engineer who time to time ..being a translator or tutor needs to explain... I am really enjoying this discussion. Let's go father....

Who is the Queen of English? Or we need the President?

Why the phenomena of Spelling Bee (bees?) in final stage must ask for words that come from Latin/Greek/Hindu/Bantu, etc.?

Why English has only two cases in the noun declination and Hungarian 42? Finnish 22? Ancient Latin 6? Or maybe I am wrong?

Which language = Yiddish or Hebrew is more popular for people(s) of this nation in the USA? Are they have spelling contest using Arabic words in their finals? What are the differences among those Semitic ways of communication? WE are using their symbols of numbers and philosophy of financial world! Global...global... pollution or temporary heaven for elementary teachers?

I love Mark Twain's: """,,,...!!!;;;'''::: -Dear Publisher use any of them in any places you like in my text!"""". Freedom of expression?

Disclaimer: I did not use a speller checker! For my own memory training. You will be The Judge!

Register to Reply
2
Power-User
United States - US - Statue of Liberty - Technical Fields - Education -

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: In the middle of the USA
Posts: 334
Good Answers: 14
#12

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/04/2008 12:05 PM

I asked my daughter this very question for the same reason -- what I heard and read about Sichuan province seemed like what we used to call Szechaun -- at least on the menus in Chinese restaurants. Since my daughter is wrapping up a MS in International Relations (Far East emphasis) and has studied in China for two semesters, I figured she would know.

The basic problem, she explained is that there are variations in pronunciation in various parts of China. Different dialects, different accents. Then written Chinese is not phonetic -- it isn't letters so much as pictograms. And the various word parts are pronounced differently in different regions. The you have the problem of transcribing a pictogram into a phonetic language for use out side China. Which one do you use? In English, "S" sometimes has a voiced, or "SZ" sound. In German, it is always unvoiced, or plain "S." So it evolves.

Remember when Beijing used to be Peking?

__________________
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." -- Albert Einstein
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - BSME Clarkson University 1992 Engineering Fields - Software Engineering - BSME Clarkson University 1992 Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - DataRock 1.0

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 388
Good Answers: 3
#13
In reply to #12

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/05/2008 9:03 AM

Thanks bp01 - you hit the nail on the head! Sichuan vs. Szechaun was the shift myself and another engineer I work with noticed from NPR. As globalization continues, I suspect old American pronunciations/spellings will change (becoming more accurate?) over time. "Chungking" vs. "Chongqing" is another I noticed a few years ago. Not sure if this is political correctness, or just US English maturing over time. - April05

Register to Reply
Power-User
Hobbies - Musician - guitar fan Greece - Member - Engineering Fields - Software Engineering -

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 246
Good Answers: 18
#14
In reply to #12

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/09/2008 4:50 AM

...Then written Chinese is not phonetic -- it isn't letters so much as pictograms. And the various word parts are pronounced differently in different regions...

Indeed, the only invariant in Chinese is the written language. Unless you write down the funny characters, you will never know which pronunciation is the right one throughout China.Of course there is one official version (Mandarin) but what about places in the south, where they speak Cantonese? Add on top of that that the intonation is an important factor. Therefore, you are bound to fail pronouncing something properly, unless you use the right "j" or the right "ch" and "sing" the right way.

Moreover, what affects transliterations from Chinese, as well as from Arabic and other non-european languages: the fact that some phonemes are much different than what we are grown up to use. The fact that chinese uses a particular standardized transilteration to the latin alphabet (pinyin), doesn't help too much, as generally the actual sound may be a little bit too different than what one reads (for example "zhong" is pronounced something like "djoung").

Therefore, my point is: The situation is generally hopeless, so don't bother... anyway, we are all going to learn chinese sooner or later.

__________________
tkot
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
United States - US - Statue of Liberty - Technical Fields - Education -

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: In the middle of the USA
Posts: 334
Good Answers: 14
#15
In reply to #14

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

06/09/2008 11:14 AM

Well said!

__________________
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." -- Albert Einstein
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 36
Good Answers: 1
#17
In reply to #12

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

07/04/2008 9:22 PM

Pretty much so. Just to add on to that, ever since the evolvement of "pinyin", a rule to standardized to romanized Chinese (which as mentioned, has no letters but full of pictograms, hurrah i love the beauty of that, to which it stimulates a totally different concept in the mind) spellings had progressed to changed to follow the "pinyin" format.

Sichuan, or Beijing, or Chongqing that was mentioned somewhere along this thread, is the pinyin spelling.

The pinyin spelling is based on the official Mandarin Pronounciation of the language, and it follows an exact rule on how to say it correctly (although non-Chinese speakers might struggle a little with that), alot of modern Chinese dictionary are categorized in the pinyin system, and many computer inputting of Chinese characters are done with the pinyin system, and furthermore, widespread in Mainland China. :)

Prior to that, there is the Wade-Giles, or whichever other systems that was derived, and that explains the other forms of spelling ^_^. I personally find the Pinyin system quite user-friendly; although when Chinese dialects are concerned, the pinyin system offered no aid to that. Since they officialised Mandarin, they might as well officialised the Pinyin spelling. I guess thats one way to look at it.

There are plenty of dialects, and pretty much countless. Some sounded much alike, whilst others are as good as being a totally different language!

Northern Dialects are closer to Mandarin, so there are instances when I can understand them (I'm fluent in Mandarin), and in some instances, only 50% certain what they were talking about. Southern Dialects on the whole are as good as a totally different language.

If China had not been "one big country" you can imagine the chinese dialect are alike various European languages, they sound alike in some instances, but technically totally incomprehensible. :p Neither do they follow exactly the same gramatical structures. So sometimes a Southerner from the rural areas, might even adopt their own "grammar structures" whilst speaking Mandarin, and get a Northerner confused! It was not just a matter of different pronounciation. ^^

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Technical Fields - Education - Seasoned Vet in the Classroom United States - Member -

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 760
Good Answers: 19
#16

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

07/03/2008 4:08 PM

While living in China it was interesting to note that dialect changes drastically from town to town and province to province. It was such a great change that even native speakers of Mandarin Chinese (I am not talking about the differences between Mandarin and Cantonese) could not understand each other easily when travel was more than a few hours.

For example, I lived in Nanjing. Often the city brought in people from more rural parts of China to drive cabs (although I never understood why). People from Nanjing could often understand my Chinese with some effort, but some cabbies from certain areas never could.

To complicate matters further, or to further illustrate the point, a native of Nanjing traveled with me to Beijing, about 12 hours north. She had an EXTREMELY hard time understanding some of the local speakers, and they were all speaking the same language.

It would almost be like the exaggerated difference between a Northeastern and a Cajun dialect of English, although Cajun English is heavily influenced by French, where the dialects of Chinese are not influenced (as much) by any other foreign language, probably just some regional/tribal vernacular vocabulary.

__________________
StE - "For 'tis the sport to have the enginer/Hoist with his own petard" -Hamlet Act III, scene 4, 202–209
Register to Reply
Power-User
Technical Fields - Education - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 367
Good Answers: 1
#18

Re: "Global" English: who are the influencers?

07/07/2008 9:29 AM

Why so many times in CR4 we are moving from "mechanical engineering" to "RELIGION" and from English to Chinese? Is it to do something with moving our mouth test from the country kitchen to an oriental one?

Always under the some initial Title of the Question.

A (or The) Mark Twain's admirer (or - .... of M. Twain's literature). Get I "C" (Si or See)?

Post S. Where is Del the Cat?

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Register to Reply 18 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Aisling (1); april05 (2); bp01 (2); Bricktop (2); cwarner7_11 (1); Hendrik (1); Mr. Truman Brain (1); ShakespeareTheEngineer (1); southern123 (2); tkot (1); TVP45 (1); user-deleted-9 (2); Vulcan (1)

Previous in Forum: HVAC   Next in Forum: Coursework

Advertisement