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The Engineer
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Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 1:07 PM

The United States should be making all of its electricity with renewable and carbon-free energy in 10 years, former Vice President Al Gore said Thursday. Al Gore's efforts to fight climate change has thrust him into the national spotlight. "The survival of the United States of America as we know it is at risk," Gore said.

In a speech at Washington's Constitution Hall, Gore touched on an array of the nation's current woes, saying the economic, environmental and national security crises are all related.

"I don't remember a time in our country when so many things seemed to be going so wrong simultaneously," Gore said. To begin to fix all the problems, Gore said, "the answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels. Gore called on the country to produce all of its electricity from renewable and carbon-free sources in 10 years, a goal he compared to President Kennedy's challenge for the country to put a man on the moon in the 1960s.

Gore chastised those who have proposed opening new areas for oil drilling as a solution to U.S. energy problems. "It is only a truly dysfunctional system that would buy into the perverse logic that the short-term answer to high gasoline prices is drilling for more oil 10 years from now," Gore said.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/17/gore.energy/index.html

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#1

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 1:27 PM

The United States should be making all of its electricity with renewable and carbon-free energy in 10 years, former Vice President Al Gore said Thursday.

I was looking and have a hard time finding his plan. Can you help me point to his plan? This should be pretty interesting and would be quite embarrassed if the answer was always there for alternative energy implementation.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 2:11 PM

I totally agree with you P-911. Not only does Gore provide no details, neither did JFK during his seminal "Going to the Moon" speech. JFK doesn't provide any details, he just vaguely outlines the idea of going to the moon. That is why neither idea makes any sense and are both a waste of money and effort.

Here is JFKs speech from 1962

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 2:47 PM

Big difference, JFK was president, and Al Gore is not.

Great people lead and delegate. Not do as I say and not as I do.

JFK knew we could do it, he didn't know how though. privy to the US infrastructure and capabilities.

Plus there was just more that a moon shot riding on it. Just like GW.

I am sure Al Gore will define (at least vaguely) his plans for implementing the proclamation.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 2:50 PM

I'm sure when he does you'll read it in detail as always.

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#8
In reply to #1

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 2:57 PM

"Can you help me point to his plan?"

He does not have one. He is preaching his faith. Evident in his statement

"In my opinion it is a spiritual crises which has to do with the relationship between human civilization and ecological system's of the earth." Al Gore

He does not need a plan to preach his faith in a dooms day message. He does not need proof of the events to come as he has faith they will unless we heed his warning.

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#9
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Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 3:06 PM

Yes, I think he calls his ridiculous faith "science". Sure he has proposed many detailed plans to combat carbon emissions over the years, but I haven't taken the time to bother to read them, so they don't count as far as I'm concerned. Until he comes to my house, sits me down, and talks me through the variety of proposals he's made over the past 20 years and explains in explicit scientific language that I can understand how he wants to proceed, I'm going to dismiss anything he says as vanity and posturing.

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#54
In reply to #9

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/19/2008 9:31 PM

Hey guys, do not be too down on st gore remember he invented the internet... or at least wants to take claim for it BOOOOOOO GORE, go and help your wife with the failed pmrc !!!!!!

Ferris

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#2

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 1:58 PM

Ah, AL Gore and his amazing hyperbole. Theoretically, shouldn't we drill for more oil to help the economy so we can sink more money into alternative fuels? Because right now I don't have the money for solar roof panels or a methane gas extractant system for my septic tank.

But who am I to question the emperor of the moon? After all, he is the inventor of the internet and the environment.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 2:20 PM

Ah yes, well said BiomedWV. Take a look at this YouTube clip from 1992 where Al Gore advocates conservation and elimination of the internal combustion engine and warns about the threat of Global Warming. That hack had already written a book on climate change before 1992! Clearly this issue that appears to be a lifelong passion for him and that has proven him correct time and time again is actually a long term publicity stunt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rdWbwHz6jk

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#40
In reply to #4

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 5:01 PM

I'm sure the logic advocated is not write a best seller and you're automatically correct or campaign for something for years and years and there can't possibly be any alterior motive.

It is interesting that in this "spiritual" best selling book population control is nestled in with saving the planet. There is an agenda here, an ideology that runs to the root and colours the interpretation of the "facts".

I can understand detesting bad arguments Roger, but you seem to be Gore's defense attorney. Gore is certainly no white knight and doomsday prophets do not have a very good track record historically. I'm on board if all that was being advocated was funding alternative energy research, testing and implimentation, but that is clearly not the whole ball of wax here.

I will have a pleasent, guilt-free drive home this afternoon in my four cylinder, emission tested Topaz.

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#72
In reply to #40

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 4:00 PM

Plenty of people go through life without guilt, but that doesn't mean they're innocent.

You believe what you believe because a lot of people that know better don't speak up, so you mistakenly believe you are engaged in a debate when the doubt was resolved 20 years ago. That's where we're at. So you go ahead and drive home in your fuel efficient car, as if that matters (a placebo), and you go ahead and be guilt free. I myself will continue to worry whether it is moral to live well if someone else has to pay the price (yeah I'm talking about you Africa).

As for being Al Gore's defense attorney, the only thing I'm trying to defend is the truth.

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 4:20 PM

So Global warming has been proven as fact? Unequivocally. No question about it? There have been no studies in the past 20 years that have found anything to dispute or debate this issue over? Is this the democratic underground? Sounds like both sides have beliefs and reasoning behind their statements, and you're not going to change each others minds.

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 4:22 PM

Yes, there is a scientific consensus that not only is global warming real but is caused by man. Look it up. Look up the organization for climatologists has to say about it.

Your derision in your post exactly proves my point. You have no idea that the ironic statements you are making are in fact completely true. That's how big your disconnect is.

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#75
In reply to #74

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 4:28 PM

OK, but you still didn't answer my question. Any studies that conflict?

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#76
In reply to #75

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 4:36 PM

Yes, of course there are studies that conflict.

You can pretty much find a study to conflict anything if you wanted to, that doesn't make a debate does it?

Lets be clear, if the vast majority of men and women who have spent decades studying mathematics, science, and probability as applied to climate have come to the conclusion that global warming is real and is caused by man and only a few scientists object, your suggesting that means the subject is in debate and I'm saying its settled.

There is no such thing as unanimity on science. You pick a topic, I'll find you a dissenter.

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#77
In reply to #76

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 4:48 PM

Your correct Roger, on this, but what is being debated even between the mathematicians, scientist and statisticians who are part of the consensus is how far along it is.

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#80
In reply to #76

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 5:33 PM

Hey RP:

I wonder what percentage of the 50,000 APS members (see following), have jumped off the "man made" global warming bandwagon. Lets say its a really low percentage like 5%. Thats still matches the 2500 scientist perpetually cited by those trying to prove "man made" global warming. And what percentage of those 2500 scientist, have sued to get their names of that report? Would you call this settled science?

"The American Physical Society, an organization representing nearly 50,000 physicists, has reversed its stance on climate change and is now proclaiming that many of its members disbelieve in human-induced global warming. The APS is also sponsoring public debate on the validity of global warming science. The leadership of the society had previously called the evidence for global warming "incontrovertible."

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 5:37 PM

how far is that off topic?

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#85
In reply to #80

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 7:54 PM

Senatorferrell, looks like you've been fooled again.

Here is a statement that can be found on the front page of the American Physical Society's homepage, it reads:

APS Climate Change Statement

APS Position Remains Unchanged

The American Physical Society reaffirms the following position on climate change, adopted by its governing body, the APS Council, on November 18, 2007:

"Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate."

An article at odds with this statement recently appeared in an online newsletter of the APS Forum on Physics and Society, one of 39 units of APS. The header of this newsletter carries the statement that "Opinions expressed are those of the authors alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of the APS or of the Forum." This newsletter is not a journal of the APS and it is not peer reviewed.

I don't blame you, there is a huge campaign to sow confusion and bury the truth. It's up to you to see past their lies. I'm not your enemy, Al Gore is definitely not your enemy, you enemy is whispering those lies in your ear and looks like your friend.

By the way, Here is the official APS position on global warming:

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#82
In reply to #76

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 6:23 PM

I'm not saying that global warming doesn't exist in some form, but global warming, just like evolution, and creationism are scientific theories. They cannot be proven.

I will look up what you suggested, but you may want to look up the meaning of the word 'ironic', you're using it in the wrong way, but that's okay cause most people do.

But right now I'm home so I'm going to take my 5 kids out back, burn last years snow tires, grill up some burgers and probably sleep a lot better than you, lighten up a little, you keep debating what you say isn't a debate.

Oh...well...look at the time, I'm jumping off this thread, it's gone on a little too long. All replies and posts have been informative and fun to read. Roger, I look forward to your next topic of discussion. See Yall later!!

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#84
In reply to #82

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 7:44 PM

'scuse me but, what? Has that ornery science hydra gone and sprouted another gnashy-gnarly head?

I'm not saying that global warming doesn't exist in some form, but global warming, just like evolution, and creationism are scientific theories. They cannot be proven.

Doesn't this kinda beg the question? And rely on a false premise as well?

. . . in that warming is not theory but, rather, a determination based on an accumulation of measurements done in the interest of science? And, if that is the case (which it is), would theoretically based trend analysis tend to favor a conclusion (a bet) that average earth temperature is rising, not falling or in stasis? Would one reasonably bet against the likelihood of continued warming, given measured trends; and given the price of losing that bet? Further, given the (also scientific) correlation between warming trends and expanding, human fossil fuel burning, wouldn't it be a safer bet, that abating or reversing the warming trend cannot be accomplished by continued rise in the burning trend?

Seen from this, clearer, perspective, could we not say that the proper place to call upon theory (and given that ignoring theory is theory nonetheless) would concern the efficacy and consequences of steps that might be reasonably taken to reverse or abate measured warming trends, whether it be to do something (such as reverse the fuel burning trend) or to do nothing at all? And that additionally, since future trends cannot rely on other than theory which gives rise to predictability, does it make sense to (in effect) propound a theory which ascribes measured historic trends as theories? A betting man would say no; only a gambler would say yes.

So, does theory in fact have a place in light of the theme of this forum? There would seem to be one aspect . . . for which there is no choice but to rely on theory: to judge—as Al Gore in his own inelegant way seems to imply—the degree to which a ten-year window of remediation, or no window of remediation, will be sufficient (or insufficient) to avert a consequence in which all bettors, for and against, wind up being losers. (Once again, the already-measured trends of increasing losers, seems to suggest where the safest bets should be placed.)

UG

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#86
In reply to #82

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 8:06 PM

Um, I did use ironic correctly. Here is the very first definition of Irony from Webster's Dictionary:

1: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony

Here is what you wrote that referred to as ironic:

You Wrote: "So Global warming has been proven as fact? Unequivocally. No question about it? There have been no studies in the past 20 years that have found anything to dispute or debate this issue over?"

Though I'll concede it wasn't very adroit.

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#94
In reply to #86

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 10:38 PM

Well, I stand corrected on my own correction. There's socratic irony, dramatic irony and all other sorts of metallurgy. I have always understood irony to be in the literary sense " the use of words for other than their literal intention". Well I learned something new today, kind of late in the day, but better late than never

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#96
In reply to #94

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 1:03 AM

Don't sweat it, it's an easy miss. It's funny, when I was a kid I was too lazy to look words up but when the internet came along I started going to Webster's online all the time to check stuff. I also used to work with an older engineer with a great grasp of the English language and it motivated me to check out Webster's word of the day and visit Webster's online more often to improve my vocabulary (plus I find etymology interesting). I'm still am bad at spelling though, if it wasn't for spell check I'd be in trouble. Even with it I'm in trouble a lot.

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#87
In reply to #82

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 8:11 PM

BioMed,

Creationism is not a scientific theory. It is a religious belief and, thus, not open to standard scientific tests.

Among scientists, evolution is a done deal. There are many details that we don't know and many "missing links", but evolution has been seen in action by many scientists.

Nobody ever "proves" any theories, whether Newton's gravitational law or Ohm's law or any of them. After years and years of not finding any faults with the theories, we accept them as true.

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#91
In reply to #87

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 9:43 PM

Now I know I said I was gone off this thread, but after burning those tires and pouring that old motor oil in the creek I just had to check out what was going on.

TVP45 you are just looking at the whole evolution creation thing from an evolution scientists view. Bias much? There's thousands of "creationist scientists" who could spin facts around you and I just like you could spin facts around me and him/her. And you both BELIEVE by the facts that you have garnered yourselves and other like-minded colleagues that you are right. Now, you both could prove and disprove each other longer than my two youngest boys can catch lightning bugs on a warm summer night, but you can't quite put all the pieces together on either side and you're both dang sure you're right.

Oh, and if you can disprove Ohms law, please share it with the rest of the class because truly I would like to hear it. All joking aside, I really want to know.

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#93
In reply to #91

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 10:22 PM

Sure, Ohms law doesn't work when the wires are really small. Ohms law also doesn't work in Semiconductors. There's two for you.

Creationism. Man oh man. How do you even begin to debate such nonsense? At least the "Global Warming is a myth" side uses logical arguments (unfortunately based on half truths and misinformation). But creationism? Creationism is just burning witches.

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#98
In reply to #93

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 4:56 AM

Now, creationists stopped burning witches at least like...5-6 years ago. You're just upset because nobody can find that missing chain guy. oops, missing link thing, or whatever you guys are all looking for. Besides I never said anything like global warming doesn't exist. I believe that it's there but also believe Al Gore to be a giant political wiener in a suit raking in money off people, that folks is the real inconvenient truth.

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#99
In reply to #93

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 5:28 AM

What is the heat of combustion of a witch, and can you improve that with hydrogen enhancement?

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#104
In reply to #99

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 8:30 AM

in the wizard of oz they used water

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#119
In reply to #104

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 7:00 PM

So, you could use your HHO generator to keep wicked witches of the west away?

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#122
In reply to #119

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 7:40 PM

Yes, I am looking for a investor to develop this idea.

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#112
In reply to #99

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 3:07 PM

Only if you magnetically align the molecules 1st

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#120
In reply to #112

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 7:02 PM

Which would explain why there is a wicked witch of the west and a witch of the east. Obviously lining up with the earth's pole by some perverse left hand rule!

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#100
In reply to #91

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 5:35 AM

Biomed,

You missed my point. I can find exceptions to Ohm's law - MOVs, zeners, superconductors, etc - but I can't prove or disprove a scientific theory. All I can say (like millions of others) is that I have always found Ohms law to work in regular conductors and I accept it as true. But I can't prove it.

And, there are no creationist bioscientists. That's a bit like having an atheist theologian.

Good luck with the lightning bugs. They're fun to watch.

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#101
In reply to #100

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 6:24 AM

The question is, how do you know she's a witch?(gotta love Monty Python). On the whole point thing, I get what you're saying, but what I'm trying to get at in a ridiculously circuitous fashion is there's no Mho's law to contradict Ohms law. With the whole C vs. E thing both sides have some valid points and (whether they want to admit it or not) have learned from each other in ways to defend their position, and have been doing it for something like 200 years. So either side has somewhat lost sight of the goal of finding the truth/proof and have simply focused on tearing each other down, only to solidify the others position. Ok I will admit the Ohms law thing was a bad idea to ask on and I didn't really think that one through before posting, because I really do know better (not that I've shown that but this time just go with me on this, it was late). This really has gotten off topic, partly my fault, but everybody is so dead set that they are right on everything. What's so bad about being wrong from time to time and learning from each other on this stuff? Do I agree with AG, no. Do I completely shut out everything he has to say? No, he's an educated guy who's got some good ideas, but dang folks, he's not a god, he's a politician. If anybody can read through this thread and say they haven't learned anything, or at least have more than a fleeting desire to check into things a little more, they are either to old to accept new ideas or are politicians themselves. Now you guys have made me have to think, and I really don't like to do that, I like to keep it lighthearted and poke a little. I've got to go do some work now, so I'll leave with these thoughts from Rdoney King -Can't we all just get along?!

(On a weird/sad/strange note there are cases of people actually being atheistic and earning a doctorate in theology because they thought it would be a "good field".)

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#102
In reply to #101

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 6:52 AM

I agree with your point about Al Gore not being a god. I find it puzzling that the two people most quoted in this debate - Gore and Monckton - are not scientists. It's like asking James Carville who does his hair!

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#106
In reply to #102

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 8:34 AM

lol

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#108
In reply to #100

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 1:47 PM

TVP45,

I think somewhere your logic took a back seat. Atheism is a theology - postulating there is no God - It's adherants are most definately practicing it.

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#121
In reply to #108

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 7:08 PM

I bow to your knowledge. I don't know much about atheism except you never have to worry about them stealing the Gideon Bibles from hotel rooms.

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#103
In reply to #74

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 8:10 AM

Your right global warming can be caused by man. If all the Eskimos huddled together in one spot there would be a warmer area in the Arctic.

Must be way they have recorded an increase of the average temperature on Mars.

Then again with the rising cost of crude oil we may run out before it becomes an issue. Forcing humanity to seek other means of powering the world. And I'm sure there will be an Al to find some thing wrong with that. Some one else's platform to stand on in their effort to run for public office.

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#107
In reply to #103

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 9:52 AM

Ozzb,

If you bothered to read the research paper about the warming on Mars you'd see the explanation was an albedo effect caused by planet wide dust storms. But why let facts get in the way of your argument, right?

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#109
In reply to #107

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 2:19 PM

I have read a few of the research papers which all give different reasons for the climate change on Mars. Most concluded it is natural events.

So why can the climate change on earth not be a natural event. Why does the cause have to be entirely man made.

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#110
In reply to #109

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 2:50 PM

Because you simply can't add 50% more Carbon Dioxide to the atmosphere and have nothing happen. No feedback effect is nearly strong enough to counteract that drastic a change.

This is how it works. The Earth is a black-body that radiates a particular spectrum that peaks in the infrared. Carbon Dioxide, Methane, and Water Vapor (among other molecules) absorb that frequency and re-emits that radiation or converts it into vibrational energy(heat). Carbon Dioxide and Methane are heavier than O2, N2, etc. and so hugs the surface of the Earth (which is the part of the Earth where we live). Thus increasing the amount of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere increases the heat trapped at the Earths surface.

Still confused? How about this. Venus on average about twice the distance from the sun as Mercury. Power from the Sun decreases by the distance squared. The mean surface temperature of Mercury is 360K and the mean surface temperature of Venus is 735K, almost twice as high.

So ask yourself, why would a planet that is twice the distance from the sun have twice the mean temperature when the power of the sun is 4 times smaller at that distance? The answer is that Venus has a thick atmosphere of mainly Carbon Dioxide. Go ahead and look it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(planet)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus

As for Mars, it is an albedo effect. Here is a link:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070404-mars-warming.html

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#111
In reply to #109

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 2:52 PM

ozzb,

what is natural, when beaver build dams, would that be called natural to improve the beavers environment, as compared to when man builds dams, or are we held to different standards because we are aware?

(without slipping into philosophy)

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#113
In reply to #111

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 3:17 PM

It's the scale how many beaver would it take to dam the mississippi?

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#114
In reply to #113

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 3:25 PM

Garthh,

It's nice to see you're still alive and kickin. Haven't seen your postings for awhile and was beginning to wonder.

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#150
In reply to #113

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/24/2008 8:08 AM

Depends on the size of the beaver

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#116
In reply to #111

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 4:57 PM

Beavers use dams in creeks to catch red herrings. Man uses red herrings to ignore the damage done by dams on rivers.

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#83
In reply to #72

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 7:27 PM

When I speak of guilt-free, I mean actual guilt, not feeling guilty... ie if I don't have it I won't feel it.

Things I am not mistaken about.

1) The IPCC is a political puppet.

2) Extreme Environmentalism is a political machine.

3) Want to find the truth? Follow the money trail.

4) The "end justifies the means" is embraced by Eco-Liberals.

5) Radical low-carbon policies = economic madness.

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#88
In reply to #83

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 8:17 PM

How could you be wrong? You didn't really say anything, did you?

Follow the money trail? Seriously, are you kidding or just messing with me now?

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#90
In reply to #88

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 8:51 PM

Seriously, whether government grants, carbon credits or BIG OIL! Oh no... I let the cat (sorry Del) outta the bag.

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#92
In reply to #90

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 10:10 PM

Did you just suggest that Big Oil is Promoting global warming?

Exxon-Mobil's profit the last year by quater was 10.8 billion, 11.6 billion, 9.4 billion, and 10.2 billion for a grand total of over 40 billion dollars in profit (Not that I have a problem with that, I'm just trying to show you the money trail).

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=XOM

The whole of the department of energy's scientific funding for 2007 totaled 4.1 billion.

http://www.doe.gov/news/3150.htm

So to be clear, one oil company (I admit the largest) earned 10 times the total scientific funding from the department of energy in 2007. I don't think your following the correct money trail.

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#133
In reply to #92

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/23/2008 12:16 PM

At least you have implied in your response that there is more than one money trail. So let's look at the practical implications assuming your comparitive 10x figure.

Well for starters you have to add in the "bought" scientists factor by the oil companies because obviously they need to BUY the anti-Global Warming public relations machine. This in turn means that you must believe that there is absolutely no integrity in any of these men who must be taking payoffs and lying through their teeth in misrepresenting facts, suppressing data, etc. etc.

On the other side, the peanuts money trail as you see it, "scientists" do not need to be "paid-off" on mass because it just takes a few men without integrity in leadership to "steer the vessel" and with the peer pressure within the group atmosphere and the "keep your grant" and "keep your position" mentality you don't have the same moral nose dive collectively.

I find door #2 much easier to swallow.

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#135
In reply to #133

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/23/2008 1:26 PM

You sound like you have a low opinion of scientists. It sounds like you don't think scientists are capable of thinking critically or independently. Is that what you're suggesting?

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#136
In reply to #135

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/23/2008 1:39 PM

That is a very general statement

Thats like saying cops are... or the majority of doctors are...

The pressure within this climate (no pun intended), in the context of all the political pressure, applied to the interpretation of the facts, will have/does have its effect.

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#137
In reply to #136

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/23/2008 1:42 PM

Sorry...thought I was logged in.

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#139
In reply to #137

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/23/2008 3:01 PM

(Login thing sometimes happens to me too)

It's a dangerous thing when you stop trusting your media and your scientists. You think about that.

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#141
In reply to #139

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/23/2008 4:03 PM

Is that my CNN? my Fox News? my ABC or CBS? or maybe my CBN?

Maybe my trustworthy pundits are Al Frankin? Bill O'Reilly? Keith Olbermann? or maybe Ann Coulter

Roger, if you supply me with a nice long list of scientists, I'll be happy to fill out the 0-10 survey form

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#115
In reply to #88

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 4:28 PM

Hey RP:

What do you think of Climate Bullies like the Governor of Oregon? Lots are people are in this position. Climate bullies are not real tolerant of opposing opinions:

Oregon Governor Set to Fire State Climatologist Over Global Warming

By Noel Sheppard (Bio | Archive)
February 7, 2007 - 02:15 ET


Can your job really be at risk if you don't buy into the junk science of anthropogenic global warming? Well, that certainly seems to be the case in Oregon.

As reported by the Beaver State's KGW.com (h/t Drudge):

In the face of evidence agreed upon by hundreds of climate scientists, George Taylor holds firm. He does not believe human activities are the main cause of global climate change.

Like a George Romero movie, the article eerily continued:

Taylor has held the title of "state climatologist" since 1991 when the legislature created a state climate office at OSU The university created the job title, not the state.

His opinions conflict not only with many other scientists, but with the state of Oregon's policies.

So the governor wants to take that title from Taylor and make it a position that he would appoint.

Imagine that. But it gets worse:

In an exclusive interview with KGW-TV, Governor Ted Kulongoski confirmed he wants to take that title from Taylor. The governor said Taylor's contradictions interfere with the state's stated goals to reduce greenhouse gases, the accepted cause of global warming in the eyes of a vast majority of scientists.

Suddenly, "An Inconvenient Truth" is becoming seriously inconvenient to those who don't believe it. Isn't the Party on the left marketed as the big tent of tolerance?

What's wrong with this picture?

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#117
In reply to #83

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/22/2008 5:35 PM

TeslaFan:

I have to agree with you. I heard a pretty good U.S. scholar talk about how the extreme environmental machine picked up a head of steam, He said:

Non public employee unions used to be very powerful, and supplied a lot of money to buy influence. The unions would say, "hey we have too many people walking the streets without jobs", and Washington would lower immigration for a while. These unions would say "fuel is getting too expensive for industry", and Washington would allow more exploration and development.

But as the private unions declined, our politicians went to the next highest bidder, the Enviro's. Lots of money started flowing to Democrats, and now we have the Democratic party under the enviro's thumb. But you still see some Demo's like Obama, who will take oil money if its offerred.

I liked the unions better, because they had the working man to represent (not perfectly), but most of their actions seemed fairly common sense.

Radical low carbon policies are economic madness!

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#5

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 2:46 PM

OMG! Look at this....you know how Gore supposedly "invented the internet"? It turns out he only sponsored the bill in 1991 that led to the creation of the internet in its modern form. What a joke. Everyone knows the internet was invented by scientists at CERN. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia:

An important result of the Gore Bill was the development of Mosaic in 1993[5][10], the World Wide Web browser which is credited by most scholars as beginning the Internet boom of the 1990s:

Gore's legislation also helped fund the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois, where a team of programmers, including Netscape founder Marc Andreessen, created the Mosaic Web browser, the commercial Internet's technological springboard. 'If it had been left to private industry, it wouldn't have happened,' Andreessen says of Gore's bill, 'at least, not until years later.' [11]

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#10

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 3:15 PM

The thing that worries the living daylights out of me is that no politician has the backbone to say that there is no cheap, easy, single solution. Both McCain and Obama rattle on about hydrogen as though it were a fuel (Yes, I know there are thousands of hydrogen mines in the Australian outback but GM won't let us use them). What I wouldn't give for somebody to just stand up and say that we are gonna have to make the existing oil last at least 40 or 50 years while we build nuclear, wind, and solar plants. And then to tell people about the difference between a $20 a barrel field and a $100 a barrel field and what P10 means versus P95. But, no, they pander to us and tell us to go watch American Idol and not worry.

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#35
In reply to #10

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 1:40 PM

GA, brother! GA

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#11

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 3:21 PM

The market will dictate our change to renewable sources. As oil prices rise renewable sources will seemingly become cheaper (maybe...for some reason i have a feeling that oil has a role in the construction of dams, solar panels and wind turbines). If renewable energy sources can produce energy cheaper then coal and gas power plants then there will be a rapid change over to renewables. If you change over before the market dictates that you should, then all your bills will rise because your energy producing process will be more costly then the prior one.

Remember that the top 10 oil reserves are about 1.2 trillion barrels combined. The world's consumtion is 84 million barrels a day or 30.7 billion a year. There is mostlikely another 30 years of oil which should give us enough time to put other techonologies in place.

Although, i wouldnt count on us to ever stop using oil...whatd be the pt? Oil is the foundation of this economy and the source of its growth. use less oil, grow less. Who wants that. No, it will be used as long as it is economical, which will still be for awhile.

If we want to switch over to renewables in ten years, renewables better be cheaper then conventional methods pretty soon

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#30
In reply to #11

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 10:45 AM

Of course the free market will solve our energy problems. And what is more free market then the government providing billions of subsidies for oil companies? Clearly we have nothing to worry about.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 11:08 AM

subsidies arent really free market are they although to be fair, ethanol, solar and wind are getting subsidies too. Not in such a huge amount as oil, but i assume you can figure out why that is...

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 11:22 AM

We can get rid of those Ethanol subsidies too as far as I'm concerned. Not that that's gonna happen in an election year.

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#12

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 3:25 PM

Gore called on the country to produce all of its electricity from renewable and carbon-free sources in 10 years, a goal he compared to President Kennedy's challenge for the country to put a man on the moon in the 1960s.

Kennedy's dream was possible (and the cold war with the Russians certainly helped progress and flow of funds in the right direction). Anyone who works in the power industry (or has at least a small amount of common sense) will know that this statement is TOTALLY unrealistic. I have very little faith in any politician's (or their aid's) ability to get the facts straight when it comes to science and engineering (anyone still remember the proposal to ban Dihydrogen Monoxide). You would have more luck making America gun free in 10 years (and you can imagine how impossible that would be).

There was a proposal and pilot plan from one of our power lines companies down here to mount small 2kW wind turbines on the roof of businesses to relieve stress on the power grid. Who is advising these people?

<sigh>

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 3:32 PM

The U.S. spent massive amounts of money to make the moon landing happen, can we honestly say we are doing the same to ween ourselves off of oil? Innovation costs money. And yes, it is possible if your willing to spend the money.

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#13

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 3:29 PM

Roger, Respecting your passion and consideration for the actual science behind this proposal, I thought I would ask a technical question.

Does "nuclear" qualify as carbon free? Or does it mean must be both "renewable and carbon free?" where nuclear is not renewable...

With a major portion of baseload handled by nuclear, It could be possible to augment with other renewable sources. With out Nuclear, timing of demand means we'll need a crap load of storage devices that methinks the environmental impact will be quite high.

If "all of its electricity" means "All" of its electricity, could someone estimate for us all the costs of decommissioning all existing combustion generating plants as a % of GDP? And what will be legal for site specific emergency backup generation?( hospitals, computer facilities, emergency services etc.)

I think something this important needs a look at the implicit costs of the proposal as well.

Without nuclear, I'm thinking major decline in energy availability and thus GDP.

If his plan allows for tax credits for photovoltaics on my house, I'll be first in line...

Regards.

milo

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 3:39 PM

I can't speak for his plan but I think Nuclear Fission is a bad idea. Solar, Wind, Hydro and an aggressive investment in Fusion research (which will ultimately be the answer) is the way to go, but that's my plan, not his.

Allow me to return the respect you expressed regarding understanding the science involved in these issues. Are you aware what the global consequences are of a single nuclear fission plant meltdown? Yes, I know we are assured that it won't happen with modern technologies. Do you know how and why fission nuclear meltdowns occur? It is remarkable easy for them to occur.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 7:06 PM

Divided we stand--Wind? You kidding. We are blowing our wad on it, without batting an eye--It's European technology developed there for there and then packaged and for sale to any energy fat cat here. What is the largest single windmill for sale and how many people in the private sector own them? Very very few, but there is huge money in it?!?! The grid penetration is abysmal and with the legislation forcing "alternative power" to be purchased and subsidised by public utilities and tax dollars, is only going to force the high cost of wind energy in place of cheap hydro electric. When the wind blows, make toast.(Wind--From what I have read , it's attendance in usable form is around 25% of the time.)

These will certainly be interesting times ahead--Let's see what happens when the equatorial countries deforest to grow corn and sugar cane for fuel production that we will not rest until we get. Buy chicken, beef or corn in the future?

Quoting our Nobel Peace prize winning scientific ex vice president inventor

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 9:23 PM

You wrote of deforestation, but I didn't and have never advocated or defended ethanol or ethanol subsidies. I don't care if it's corn, sugarcane, or switchgrass, it doesn't work. I've called biofuels insane and amoral and have been ridiculed for my opposition. I've shown cause and effect of subsidies causing increases in food prices.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/222375 (earlier link where I discuss this)

And yes, wind power can work, in certain areas, just as hydro power works in certain areas.

But let me be loud and clear about this for what must be the 100th time on CR4, the solution ultimately to the worlds energy problems are Solar and FUSION. Why Fusion and not fission? If you leave a Fusion reaction alone it slows and stops. If you leave a fission reaction alone, it increases. Simplistic? Oh yes, but utterly to the point of why one will work and the other will not. As long as you accept and understand human nature.

Of course, we aren't investing in fusion. We're leaving that to the Europeans and Chinese, two nations that haven't turned their back on science. I'm sure they'll share with us. The problem with our country right now isn't that we are arguing, it's that we're arguing over the wrong things. Off shore drilling? That's not a debate, its a distraction.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/17/2008 10:55 PM

I am with you R P....Except for wind, it's a costly joke and time will tell that tale. I wasn't directing any sharp criticism directly at your post, but at the collective tone of all of them quoting a Nobel Peace Prize winning inventor who will lead us from certain demise from our current excesses.

Slow the wind down across a broad section of a dessert and there will be nothing but free power????????? No consequence?

Let's screw up the tide in a huge bay or sound and it won't adversely affect that ecosystem???

Hydroelectric is substantial comparative to the side effects. Nuclear could be. Solar, maybe someday. Wind? no way without transforming the energy to a form that can be stored.

Cheers

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#23
In reply to #18

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 8:14 AM

"Hydroelectric is substantial comparative to the side effects. Nuclear could be. Solar, maybe someday."

Unless you're a salmon or other specie trying to use the unobstructed waterway. Turning a rushing oxygenated cold water stream into a silt collecting high temperature, blocked access lake of stagnation doesn't qualify as a "adversely affected ecosystem?"

And as food webs are inextricably linked, deleterious effects to salmon will be felt throughout the system uhh- "adversely affect that ecosystem???"

It would be a punk comment to point to the environomental success of the three gorges dam, so i will just mention that as the worst case to date, recognizing that there is a cultural/ governmental failure with the implementation in light of the insatiable energy problem its builders face, but it is worth mentioning that there are no "insubstantial major hydro projects."

Sorry, trout, No free lunch for Hydro.

milo

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#29
In reply to #23

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 10:41 AM

Yes, Niagara Falls Power Station has been a disaster, excellent point again Milo.

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#59
In reply to #13

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/21/2008 8:58 AM

<...Does "nuclear" qualify as carbon free? Or does it mean must be both "renewable and carbon free?" where nuclear is not renewable...>

Er, everything is renewable. It's merely a question of timescale.

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#19

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 12:43 AM

Gore was cited for doing 75 mph in a 55 mph zone in a nice BWN heading to the Oregon Coast. The radar actually read 81 mph, but the police officer only wrote him for 75 mph.

I wondered if Gore came into Portland in a private jet and rented a very heavy BMW, and didn't realize the faster you go, the lower you mph.

Since global warming is the biggest threat to the earth, you would think he would fly commercial and rent a Prius.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 12:49 AM

But that would require that he actually believes what he preaches.

Dragon

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#26
In reply to #19

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 10:34 AM

Ha. Great story, how did you get such a detailed account? Did Gore tell you, or the police officer that pulled him over, did he tell you.

You know, I understand your point. For instance I heard that Sally Struthers was seen at a restaurant once ordering two deserts. For 20 years that hypocrite has been trying to help starving people in Africa and here she is ordering two deserts!!

Truly your logic is impeccable.

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#33
In reply to #26

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 12:02 PM

I live close to where this happened, so the ticket is a matter of public record. Google "gore ticket Oregon" and you'll get about 1,190,000 hits (not all about this ticket).

But you have convinced me, I bet the huge right wing conspiracy just made all this up. I bet they had an Al Gore look-a-like present a legal looking -copy of his driver license, with a real Al Gore's license number. Your right Al Gore was never in Oregon. Also, Al Gore would never rent a really heavy gas guzzling BMW, and drive a emissions spewing 75 mph+. I think I will forward your email to our governor. He needs to take action against this young police officer (who didn't recognize Al Gore at first).

I bet Al was having lunch with Sally, and Sally can provide him an alibi.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 1:08 PM

No no no, you misunderstand me. I totally agree with you. I totally agree with the logic that one must complete adhere to every nuance of a concept you propose otherwise you invalidate it and yourself.

For instance, take Bill Gates. He's devoted tens of billions of dollars to help the poor in third world countries, yet he lives luxuriously. He's a hypocrite.

Or again the Pope. Clearly catholicism is completely invalidated by the wealth of the church. In fact the Pope is talking about climate change in Australia yet he took a PRIVATE Jet to get there! Sanctimony indeed.

What about Thomas Jefferson, he spoke of equal rights for all men and owned slaves!! We should immediately discard the constitution.

No, your arguments, no doubt the result of years of studious research and careful thoughtful examination make perfect sense. Allow me to summarize your magnificent logic.

Al Gore got a speeding ticket and speeding wastes gas therefore anything Al Gore has said regarding the environment over the last 20 years is invalidated and he is a hypocrite.

Brilliant, you are so right, rather than examine the merits of the issues themselves we should instead study the messenger for the slightest flaw and use it as a means to invalidate his position on the issue.

Bravo, you really represent the best of those who stand up to the tyranny of science, and I mean that last bit sincerely.

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#44
In reply to #34

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 8:22 PM

You give me too much credit.

Al Gore invalidates himself.

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#21

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 3:11 AM

Interesting that he should be right on the heels of the well publicized T. Boone Pickens initiative:

http://earth2tech.com/2008/07/08/t-boone-launches-pickens-plan-to-save-us/

A clear case of leading from behind. Gore does have one advantage, though. His home is a major energy sink and, by turning off some of his lights, he could give his proposed program a significant boost.

Diverting attention from the short-term need to expand drilling, though, could do serious damage to this country. Think about it. The existence of a U. S. race to energy independence, BY EVERY MEANS, is the only effective limitation on price increases by unfriendly countries. Our total dependence gives them total control. That race is long overdue. We could have been leaving the fossil fuel dependence stage many years ago.

Best regards.

DickL

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#27
In reply to #21

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 10:36 AM

Yes, you are so right! Gore has not once said anything regarding carbon alternatives. Then T.Boone Pickens offers the windfarm solution and suddenly Al Gore cares about the environment. Wow, what a follower.

You were so right about this, thanks for pointing it out.

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#47
In reply to #27

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/19/2008 11:02 AM

Roger:

Gore has just been Gore; grandiose but fuzzy, until T. Boone provided the practical brainpower. I guess Gore has lost his touch since his detailed design of the internet.

DickL

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#50
In reply to #47

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/19/2008 11:59 AM

DickL,

Interesting quote from T. Boone Pickens yesterday, it reads:

"I can be most effective as a nonpartisan, and I think the Democrats know me to be an honorable person," Mr. Pickens said Friday, adding that he's talked to Al Gore and the two agreed on "95 percent of what we talked about."

Oh yeah, here's something even better for you from July 18th:

Texas oil billionaire T. Boone Pickens says if Barack Obama is elected president "I think I would be for Al Gore as Energy Czar"

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/07/18/Pickens_would_OK_Gore_as_energy_czar/UPI-68911216426168/

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/19/2008 4:48 PM

Roger:

Makes sense. If I was trying to build something, I'd want a figurehead "Czar" too.

DickL

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#22

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 7:56 AM

I make it a point to never listen to anything from the mouth of Al "The inventor of the Internet" Gore. One quick look at all the press surrounding his house and energy usage (make that waste) is enough to convince even the most skeptical that Al is just using energy, and environment to garner publicity for a future run on the Presidency.

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#28
In reply to #22

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 10:39 AM

OMG! Al Gore is rich and has a big house! This totally invalidates anything he says.

Which reminds me of the Pope. He preaches charity and turning away from material things, yet have you seen his house? Wow!

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#46
In reply to #28

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/19/2008 9:30 AM

Hey Mr. Pink:

Did you see the news last night. Al Gore showed up at his ten year "carbon free" challenge event with three Lincolns (two large town cars and one SUV), after encouraging his guest to ride their bikes or take public transportation.

Funny thing is, they left their motors running the whole time Gore and his posse were in the event. They needed to run the motors to keep the air conditioners on so when Al came out, the cars would be cool. Is he that stupid not to know the press would be outside the whole time? Wait, wait, don't anwser that question!

We will be carbon free in ten years, Al Gore will have burned all available petroleum products.

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#48
In reply to #46

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/19/2008 11:44 AM

Are you really a Senator?

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#57
In reply to #48

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/20/2008 11:32 PM

Hey RP:

The following Youtube is a pretty good indication of Al Gore's commitment to implementing the urgent and immediate change we need to combat Global Warming. As Al reminds us: "We only have a short time frame left". You also have to admire many of Gore's disciples, who sacrificed in the same air conditioned comfort as Al. I think these Eco Warriors have sacrificed enough!

Its really touching isn't it?

Please enjoy the vocal stylings of Paul Simon with this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESxvY1tQHTo

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#24

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 8:24 AM

What a man does when no one is watching is the only true judge of character. Please review the following article (confirmed on Snopes) to see how Al and George care about the environment.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 8:33 AM

Interesting,

I like to add something offtopic, about 12 years ago, a freind of mine bought a house from a old couple that still used a cistern.

He showed it to me, This cistern was'nt in the basement like I'm used to seeing. It was in the upstairs attic.

I thought it was odd. Anyway he said to put my finger in the water. I could not believe how soft that water felt.

anyways, interesting link.

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#36

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 4:31 PM

This urgent news just in, Earth has been invaded, yes that's right INVADED!! The little "green" men have arrived to tell us how bad, uncaring and greedy we all are. Many of their leaders exhibit a trait that they believe will keep their "martian" masses very green... envy. No one can have more than the next is their invasion cry. Redistribution is the mechanism to accomplish this grand goal, making sure that much of the "green stuff" ends up in their own space suit pockets. The leading little "green" men have been studying us for quite some time now and they have learned the secret of control... Fear and his companion Guilt. Little do they know that some of the resistance are on to them, because we've seen that the green washes off quite easily and underneath they are actually red.

p.s. Before someone says that reminds me of the Pope... been there done that.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 4:48 PM

These guys sound awesome....where do they hang out?

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#43
In reply to #37

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 8:21 PM

Isn't it obvious? Greenland of course.

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Carbon Free Electricity in 10 Years?

07/18/2008 4:48 PM

p.s. Before someone says that reminds me of the Pope... been there done that.

GUEST...........BAD LITTLE ALTER BOY. VERY BAD.

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