Cheaper LED lights

<...the LED lights available are quite expensive compared to the price of incandescent lights and CFLs for the same illumination...>

While this is probably true, it is easy to show by calculation using local prices that a 40W incandescent that is on every day for 10min per day is an attractive candidate for replacement with a low energy alternative on the basis of cash-flow-return-on-investment in domestic tariffs. As the value of electricity rises, the attractiveness increases. The payback increases with the length of the burn and the increase in the wattage.

The days of the incandescent filament are numbered.

Hi PWS,

I fully agree with you days of incanescent lamps are numbered. Sorry, I wanted to compare the price of LED lights with flouorescent lamps, which are quite popular and cheaper, and CFLs.

Regardless of price, there are, today, savings to be made on energy consumption and re-lamping costs on most installations compared to incandescents. Most, if not all, will pay for themselves in well under a year from the energy savings realised from using them.

As to the difference between LEDs and CFLs it is largely a question of style and preference.

In a domestic environment, it is often the alpha female that determines the selection.

The cost of LED suitable for lighting is constantly coming down. The prime suppliers (As in the LED manufacturers) are moving to being able to supply components suitable as light sources as opposed to indicators where historic LED use was focused.

I can assure you that every manufacturer that I know in the intermediate manufacturing field is working on the issues of cost competitive products. We are already ahead of the feasibility of the LED suppliers ability to supply us suitable components.

That is, we already have board designs that can be adapted for LEDs brighter than they can manufacture.

Our usage (of high intensity LEDs for automotive lamps) is so great that we actually have to resistance match our current sources on the circuit boards for each sub-batch of LEDs supplied since they cannot provide enough of any single specification for our demand.

Years ago we dreamed of an LED to replace a 5W incandescent. It's now feasible and in production, but the unit price of one such LED (without a circuit board and interconnections) is still substantially greater than a single bulb.

I know that the other manufacturers (just like us) are sourcing their components across international borders for "world's best price" and that market competition continues to drive the end cost down.

The true limit (at present) is the fabrication cost of the LED itself.

On the question of "Working together", unfortunately, the employers would not endorse such a move, sharing any competitive edge we may have with our direct competitors.

The fact that we are in competition keeps the cost structure very tight anyway. We know our costs per item to the hundredth of a cent and our customers do "shop around". There is no fat.

"Our usage (of high intensity LEDs for automotive lamps) is so great that we actually have to resistance match our current sources on the circuit boards for each sub-batch of LEDs supplied since they cannot provide enough of any single specification for our demand."

That's kind of remarkable. And a little troubling.

Yep, it's troubling.

The LED fabriaction yield in the intensity/wavelength combination that's required banked with our demand means that when the LEDs arrive from our supplier they are built into product and shipped to customers in Europe and USA within 5 days.

As I commented, the domestic (household) and industrial (factory) lighting field is feasible, but supply is the challenge. We're using around 50,000 (high intensity) per day. (Concurrently we were using 200,000 low intensity LEDs per day for other products till that model was obsoleted around November last year.)

Yep, the "alpha female" and the "stylist" determine what gets bought, but the cost issue is a hard driver in automotive and while LEDs have been there for styling, the cost issue keeps many away.

Traffic lights are already another substantial user of LEDs, where reliability and serviceability are key concerns.

There are already "drop in" replacements for 20W and 40W flourescent and screw/bayonet incandescent. There are some reports of reliability concerns, but the market will quickly sort out those manufacturers that are taking short cuts.

From where I sit in the process, the challenge is supply of enough (good) LEDs to satisfy the demand at the cost the market will support.

If ever you do break into the traffic light market make sure that in the event of snow you incorporate a heating system that will melt any that has accumulated.

Not much chance of that much snow in the 'burbs here in Oz

What company do you work for ?

I have a guess, but I wanna see if I'm right 1st :P

But I'm sure its not SWSA (Sumitomo Wiring Systems Australia)

Did you see the opening of the Olympics? LED's ruled. While the upfront cost to retrofit yadda yadda yadda is substantial, the maintenance and energy savings drop the ROI to 3 - 5 year window. I am hoping to see my town roll over to LED's post haste.

I have a basic question about LEDs for lighting and the ones used for automobiles(high intensity). Are these LEDs same as the ones used in electronics? And what is the life of these "high intensity LEDs" in hours?

Thanks

LED's wherever they are used, are connected in electronics circuits.

the Life of LED's should be in the Manufacturers MTBF

But the really high Intensity ones, also need a heatsink for cooling.

LED's are LED's... High Power LED's generally have a life span of less than 50,000 hours, while the normal power LED's like 3-5 mm generally are considered 100,000 hours..

However, an LED is dependant on the driver.. If the LED is over-driven by unscrupulous designers, the LED will be very bright, for a very short period. On the high power LED these Must have heat sinks to remove the heat, or else the life will be very short.

Soon, you will see the big name lighting companies developing the more domestic useful LED products.

We actually have a very useful LED Bulb that we sell to the Poultry Industry, and have many satisified customers..

We also have many LED High Power downlights that use anywhere from 1 watt, up to 15 watts..

LED's are here to stay for the long haul... These CFL's are just a temporary fix for our energy crunch as they still contain Mercury..

Donald

See here: www.elecosn.com

Here are dimmable LED Bulb, and LED incandescent bulb

For many of the LED products, I think the price of the end product is still high if we compare with the cost of LEDs and components used, and manufacturing costs. Manufacturers try to maximise profits when the product is new, but competition and large scale production may wipe them out in the long run as people would feel they were cheated earlier. Same would apply to LED manufacturers.

Some of the countries have already adopted `large scale production - dirt cheap price' technique to conquer the world market for various goods. The quality and life may not be comparable with the best, but who cares if the item cost does not even tickle you.

I hope this happens soon. Only then the big and reputed LED / LED lamp manufacturers will reduce their prices, people are able to easily afford and help in conserving energy and our natural resources.

But you have a look at the sales online with "Speciality LED's"

claiming the highest power LED's the brightest and the like, and the prices are cheaper than anywhere.

Those LED's are not actually what they claim, just marketing to sell their LED's the brightest and best are the ones that most of the big manufacturers use, they are not cheap devices, but they are also buying on Quantity which brings the price down.

The testers I have done in the past drive LED's far brigter (within spec) than those commonly available at the "cheaper" web sites, or easily available.

Hmmm, have I lost the plot while typing this out

I don't believe the price of the finished product is high as compared to the individual components.

If you think they are high, 1 of my brothers used to work for a Sparkplug lead manufacturer, 1 lead for a Holden they made for about $0.25 each, GM sold them for a few dollars (usual markup) the exact same lead, but with "Porsche" written on the side sold for over a $100 each lead. But the manufacturers are still around, people are still buying the grossley high priced leads from the sales counter.

I doubt people are going to kick up a stink over prices of things, any more than they already do.

I have been using LED lighting for many years and have been very happy with their evolution. Recently though, I have encountered many problems associated with certain types, mostly the clear gel strip lights.

The manufacturers I use are exclusively of chinese origin right now, and these types have been inconsistent, subtly different in illumination, prone to malfunction or defective. I have replaced hundreds of feet in the past few months, and it may be for reasons as described here such as design and heat related issues. Almost all the other types of LEDs I use have been outstanding however.

It comes in 165' rolls, and is separable every meter. There is always one more power line than row of LEDs, and every row of LED has two resistors one after the other. Seems as though each section that went bad went bad the same way even in well ventilated areas. The resistors burnt, sections would go out all over the place, so I checked all my power for fluctuations and replaced them. So far, not one section went out so far. This has been a problem of late.

So far, the only ones really making the crossover to average consumers for me are the MR16 bulbs. Seems like many of my clients have track lighting and such that are readily available at IKEA and Home Depot. The standard incandescent bulbs can be replaced, but are costly still and a common response I get is the effect is not the same and they don't look very good.

I have been also installing high powered LEDs of various colors, but they don't move as much and are awkward since the circuitry and heat sinks make them heavier and larger, and they also tend to be very directional.

I am also experimenting with tiny high powered LED strips, dmx controlled (or simple wireless controller) RGB lights. I have to say I like them, though it's hard for some clients to legitimize the cost. They are smaller, easier to work with and are much more brilliant than I had been used to. Installation becomes easier with adhesive backing and then I reinforce each section to prevent any from falling down.

All in all, I use LEDs for architectural lighting more than in the average home installations since I do more commercial installations such as bars, clubs and restaurants where our design incorporates these technologies, and I am committed to utilizing LED technology every chance I get. Every new client gets indoctrinated into the new LED age. Right now I feel like New York's LED ambassador. I love this stuff !

I've lived in an "off grid" house for the last 19years and I swapped my incandescents for CFLs within the first few months, with the result that we got 3 to four times more use from our batteries than with the "hot wires". this was when one cfl, typically 9W was costing the equivalent of €15 ($22) or nearer €38 ($55!) at todays value assuming 5% average annual inflation.

Current street price for an led replacement for a 10W halogen is in the order of €12. this already makes them very attractive for battery powered systems (smaller boats and caravans)

I think the price will drop similarly to the cfls over time.... probably quicker.

We have learnt that even the reputable LED manufacturer's claims need to be thoroughly reviewed. Not just the data sheets, but also the test methods.

Some manufacturers publish their "brightness" (Light output) at the instant of turn on, while others publish at 250ms after turn on. The physics of LEDs is that as they heat up, the light output diminishes substantially.

Fortunately in our application we are able to compare "apples with apples" by our own measurements on lamp performance, but most people who buy "off the shelf" would not even understand the difference and then wonder why the replacement component "appears" different.

We could get "cheaper" LEDs, but then the alpha female and the stylist would not be impressed. Our supplier groups the LEDs into 5nm wavalength bins and also cross groups for forward voltage and driver current so that our product gives "uniform" light output. If we opt for greater variation, then they would be less expensive.

Note however that in a $5 product, the LEDs themselves typically represent $4 of the total cost. (From the other dollar is the FR4, the driver electronics, our manufacturing costs and freight to customer in Europe, plus hopefully a little profit.)

In our industry there is full cost disclosure to the customers. If the LEDs were cheaper, then they would get the cost reduction passed on.

And just for Snaketails, no it's not SWS. We're a little further North.

I have been using my dimmable, home made LED light fixture for about a week now. The LEDs are Chinese made, (nothing personal, Cnpower!) and so far 3 out of 20 have malfunctioned. I guess that is why they were for sale on Ebay.

The power supply uses the Flyback Buster circuit that I devised. It eliminates the problem of the transformer drive transistor breaking down during flyback, yet it is still a single MOSFET drive circuit.

The LEDs are wired in series and driven by an adjustable current that can be varied by a potentiometer. The range of current is from about 0.5 to 17ma. The potentiometer varies the approximate 20khz drive pulse width to the very small transformer. The maximum power for this mini spot/night light is a little over a watt.

http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1577

Any chance of "simple version flyback buster.gif" being posted here?

I recall now why you would request the reposting.

A note that might help is that L3 in the actual version that I used in my project has the dimmer control potentiometer in parallel with it. You can disregard the way it is pictured.

Keep an eye on EMI. Circuit changes may be required to lower such emissions, depending on how it is all done. Add filtering as needed, possibly in the form of bypass capacitors.

Please, no comments about my style of circuit drawing. I need to do it that way for various reasons. I work by myself, non-profit, and have no one available for redrawing diagrams with a more conventional appearance.

Node "4" is at the DC output of the circuit. In my actual project, the transformers denoted by K1 and K2 are both the same type. They are small signal isolation ones that I purchased off of Ebay. Each has two approximately identical windings of about 30mH.

If I recall correctly, in the actual refined circuit in the project, I added a gate resistor in series with the upper MOSFET in order to reduce EMI by slowing that MOSFET's switching time somewhat. 100 ohms might be a good value there. The key is slowing it down as much as you can without increasing the switching losses unacceptably.

The pictured circuit is a simulated approximation. Experiment at your own risk with results that will be commensurate with your experience and skill level. Caution is required since it involves rectified AC line power.

My project has other tweaks that add impedance in series with the AC primary as well. One reason is to boost efficiency and to provide fault protection. It is the job of the builder to attend to such matters to suit his/her particular needs.

Above all, have fun.

Here is a nice dense pack of 5mm LED's from a light shroud on a AOI system I'm pulling apart ;o)

I think let us find out and compare the prices of different lamps which are / can be used at home.

I am giving below prices in India:

40 watt incandescent bulb (500 lumen) - 0.25 USD

4 feet 40 watt fluorescent tube LED lamp (3000 lumen) - 1 USD

9 Watt CFL (450 Lumen) - 2.5 USD

3 x 1 watt 350 mA luxeons (200-300 lumen)with driver - 40 USD

It will be interesting to compare prices in other countries also.

I think it's a long way to go for LEDs unless governments seriously think of bringing down the costs. The savings the benifits and savings from LEDs to developed and developing countires will be tremendous.