Previous in Forum: 1/3 of China’s Yellow River Not Even Fit for Industrial Use   Next in Forum: how to become a CBI officre
Close
Close
Close
82 comments
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23

More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 2:10 AM

A two-part question.

Out of curiosity, before I get foot in mouth and call Sears and Roebuck and ask why they're selling a useless device for $350, I figured I would solicit other opinions on the FITCH CUSTOM=FIT BOLT-ON CATALYST.

My personal opinion is its primary function is to extract money from wallets. Any first-hand experience with this product, or opinions would be welcome. In their advertising the company site's a 34% increase in fuel economy on one 350 Chevy engine, this increase is supposedly documented by an independent laboratory.

This next part would probably be more appropriately posted on a forum dealing with metaphysics and philosophy, from an engineering/scientific viewpoint is there any such thing as an absolute?

My opinion is the device is useless, however even if I tested the device and confirmed my opinion ,I would be uncomfortable in saying that it's absolutely useless for its intended purpose in all situations.

I have a deposition to give on Monday , totally unrelated, but I'm just curious how others in the engineering community deal with the question of absolute. My opinion, there are absolutely no absolutes,if nothing else I should be able to send a few lawyers into psychoanalysis with that opinion.

http://auto.sears.com/FITCH-CUSTOM-FIT-BOLT-ON-CATALYST/Product.htm?catalogId=10623&N=600024908&productId=2019710

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: absolutes Lawyers scams
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 663
#1

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 4:54 AM

but I'm just curious how others in the engineering community deal with the question of absolute.

Very good question.

The answer? Always with the caveat...'I believe' or similar.

My Brother was in court as a witness to a road acident...the prossecution asked if the guy who stepped into the road was drunk.

My Brother replied.
He couldn't possibly know, however the guy appeared slightly unsteady, but that could be due to many factors other than being drunk!

Which is exactly the point...in a deposition one can only report one's observation or ones own actions...not draw conclusions.

One can appear drunk without being so...in fact actors are well paid to perform such feats. (mind you they're probably drunk anyway)

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 229
#2

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 5:15 AM

Hello YWROADRUNNER

As Del the cat says above, all a reseller has to say is that they believe........

Reading the description: <"....Once installed, it reformulates your fuel and suppresses bacterial growth for power gains and more miles per gallon. Allows engine to extract maximum energy from the fuel with minimal emissions. It's superior to additives—won't dissolve, deteriorate or lose it potency. Maintenance free and never needs replacing. Won't affect vehicle manufacturer's warranty. For all cars, trucks, SUVs, vans. Please note: not for sale in Oregon.....">

Perhaps the reason the expensive but useless device is <"....not for sale in Oregon....">, is because it is manufactured in Oregon, and the makers do not want a steady stream of angry customers a'turning up on their doorstep, wanting their hard-earned cash back.

<"....My personal opinion is its primary function is to extract money from wallets.....">

"I believe" you are correct, "I understand" it appears "to the best of my knowledge" to be a device which extracts cash from the credulous.

You could "have a go", but Sears and other sellers always have the out clause: "We believe" or "To the best of our knowledge", "We understand", and similar legal escape mechanisms.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply
Power-User
United States - Member - Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: La Grande, Oregon U.S.A.
Posts: 468
Good Answers: 23
#12
In reply to #2

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 12:28 AM

Spark,

The contact info for this product is an address in Connecticut. Not an Oregon product. I think the reason they don't sell in Oregon is that our definition of truth is a little less flexible than other places.

LG_DAVE

__________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft! - Theodore Roosevelt
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver (not BC) Washington (not DC) US of A
Posts: 1261
Good Answers: 12
#35
In reply to #12

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 11:43 PM

I am reminded of the notice:

INGREDIANTS IN THIS PRODUCT HAVE BEEN FOUND TO CAUSE CANCER IN CALIFORNIA

My solution? Don't take the product with me when I go to California.

Bill

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
United States - Member - Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: La Grande, Oregon U.S.A.
Posts: 468
Good Answers: 23
#37
In reply to #35

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/02/2008 11:43 PM

Good solution.

The device wouldn't work in Oregon, so leave it at the border. Of course it wouldn't work anywhere else either, so you may as well just leave it on the ground when you leave.

__________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft! - Theodore Roosevelt
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 229
#38
In reply to #37

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 12:21 AM

Hello LG_Dave

That sign at left says it all.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply
Power-User
United States - Member - Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: La Grande, Oregon U.S.A.
Posts: 468
Good Answers: 23
#39
In reply to #38

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 12:26 AM

You are correct Sparkstation.

Let me amend my advice as follows:

Leave it in a trash container when you leave

__________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft! - Theodore Roosevelt
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4513
Good Answers: 88
#44
In reply to #39

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 10:49 AM

To save yourself a trip to the store and then have to lug that dubious product to a state border, just empty your wallet directly into your own home trash can and be done with all that other hassle.

I don't buy much at Sears these days because of products like that.

I was in Sears once, looking at window-type air conditioners. The regular salesman in that department was out to lunch and so the guy from the washer/dryer section filled in. A real sleazebag, too.

"I'm interested in buying a window air conditioner. What do you know about this one?" (an Emerson Quiet-Kool unit I eventually bought elsewhere).

"These units are really great. This one can tell if you're comfortable."

(!!!)

"Oh? How does it 'know' if I'm comfortable or not?"

"It automatically adjusts to your comfort level."

"Really!? Is it telepathic?"

(he didn't know what the word 'telepathic' meant, judging from his puzzled look)

"What if I'm comfortable and my wife (who is always cold) is not comfortable? Does it split the difference?"

(he starts to fidget)

"What if I'm throwing a party? Does it sense the comfort level of each person there and take an average? What if it's wrong? Does it apologize for its mistake?"

Salesman: "I think I'm needed elsewhere..."

"No doubt. By the way, I'm looking for a washer and dryer that I can control with my mind. You sell those, too, right?"

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#46
In reply to #44

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 11:15 AM

Hello europium:"It automatically adjusts to your comfort level.""Really!? Is it telepathic?"

This is a sarcastic and pessimistic view, it obviously is a Christmas miracle. (A bit early if you are buying it in the summer)

A saying in the HVAC industry is , I can control temperature not comfort. The best comfort control is obtained by placing a nonfunctional thermostat in a temperature controlled environment and letting the dummy (referring to both the thermostat and the person) play with it and adjust their comfort level. Believe it or not it is extremely effective.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4513
Good Answers: 88
#47
In reply to #46

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 11:17 AM

The Ghost of Christmas Past told me he put a lump of coal in that guy's stocking. It was the third one. The other ghosts had already been there.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4513
Good Answers: 88
#48
In reply to #46

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 11:20 AM

"The best comfort control is obtained by placing a nonfunctional thermostat in a..."

--

The placebo effect. I'm gonna try that and see if my wife feels more comfortable whilst we reduce our heating bill meanwhile.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 663
#49
In reply to #48

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 11:25 AM

No...for the placebo effect to work, you have to eat the thermostat .

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4513
Good Answers: 88
#50
In reply to #49

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 11:28 AM

Bad kitty. Bad Bad!!!

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#3

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 8:26 AM

It's a real problem. When you make a statement like "I'm absolutely certain the car's speed was 25 mph +/- 10 mph.", lawyers turn red and hop up and down in frustration. I'd rather have an ingrown toenail removed with an EDM machine than appear in court! My sympathy to you.

But that device from Sears does look a little hinkey. You say it retards bacterial growth in your gasoline? Yeah, and it keeps elephants away, too.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 252
Good Answers: 5
#30
In reply to #3

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 7:37 PM

The thought of having an offending toe nail removed via EDM has streatched my mind onto shapes I never wanted it to experience. I have personal experience with an EDM machine and it was not plesant!

__________________
If the software can detect, compensate, avoid, or correct an anomalous condition in the system, it is, by definition, a software problem-regardless of the root cause. In the long run, for most classes of problems, it is cheaper to fix it in the SW
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#31
In reply to #30

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 7:57 PM

Still better than court.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
3
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: since 20 Jan 09, the USSA
Posts: 375
Good Answers: 81
#4

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 11:12 AM

Two part answer. One part specific, one part general. Specific applies to Sears device. General is way more interesting - the issue of absolutes.

The Sears device falls under the category of "too good to be true." As in, "If it's too good to be true, then it is." If I had invented a device that actually did what they claim, I wouldn't bother selling it one piece at a time retail, I would license it to automakers who would build it themselves and pay me US$1.00 for each vehicle so equipped. I do absolutely nothing and get several million USD per year based on USA sales alone.

If someone invents a breakthrough device - 34% increase in fuel efficiency and higher octane and lower emissions is certainly a breakthrough claim - and has to market it retail, one has to ask why this inventor and all his individual customers are so much smarter than the people who build cars, who can't figure out to integrate this technology and automatically meet the future stringent CAFE standards without downsizing and using expensive exotic materials to get there.

Hopefully 'nuff said on that topic.

Now as to the existence of absolutes. The simple and true answer is of course absolutes exist. They are called laws of nature. You step off a cliff, you die. Called the law of gravity. You crash into a bridge abutment at 150 mph, you die - called conservation of momentum and energy. Use your heart to stop a .45 caliber bullet, once again, you die, same reasons. These, people, are absolutes.

What people really mean when they question the existence of absolutes is: "What can we know absolutely?" What we can know vs. what is real are two very different questions, and they get mixed up when people abandon objectivity and go subjective. Objectivity means, "Reality exists, independent of my ability to perceive it or understand it." Subjectivity means, "Reality is what I perceive and what I understand."

Now most engineers will state that they are objectivists, and in fact most people, would, given these starkly different definitions. But in fact a very large number of people are closet subjectivists. Consider the following well-known question:

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

If there were no subjectivity in the world, that question would not exist. While I expect most CR4 readers answer that question in the affirmative, the answer is not that simple. In fact, the answer is Clintonian (as in "It depends on the what the meaning of is is"). Whether that tree makes a sound with no one around to hear it depends on how you define sound. If you define sound as a pressure wave propagated through a medium, as most engineers do, then yes of course the falling tree makes a sound. But if you define sound as the interaction of the pressure wave with the small hairs in your middle/inner ear that give you the ability to hear, then no, the tree makes no sound without that perception capability nearby. This latter definition of sound centers on the perception of sound and is subjectivist.

One must be very careful to stringently separate the issues of objective reality and the perception thereof. To use the example of an earlier post, whether someone was drunk as they stepped in front of a moving vehicle may not be easily determined by visual observation from a distance. However, if an ambulance arrived quickly and they were able to get some of the victim's blood as part of an effort to save him, then a blood alcohol level measurement would be able to provide a much more objective reading of the truth of the matter.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#5

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 12:09 PM

I would like to thank those that have responded thus far. All have provided something to think about. I was going to post a question on absolutes separately, however I wasn't quite sure how would go over on an engineering forum.

I ran across the advertisement for the bolt on catalyst quite by accident, it seemed quite appropriate to utilize it in this discussion. The statement of increasing fuel economy in one instance if nothing else would be difficult to disprove.TPV45 statement of repelling elephants is probably closer to the truth than a 34% increase in fuel economy (they might not like the smell of the catalyst) as SPARCstation implied, in this instance their claims are probably legal, yet it is still a way to steal money legally.

Dell's comment on qualifying , and limiting the scope of a statement seems to be shared by all including myself.

I found emc c comments extremely appropriate. For instance I know my desk is mostly empty space, anything but solid, but for my purposes it is solid. Bringing us to the example of the 45 and the heart shot. Functionally I would define it as an absolute, as long as I qualified it with no misfires sufficient energy to penetrate an exit, etc. , philosophically and hypothetically sometime between now and the end of the universe if the experiment was repeated enough times there is at least a chance of a bullet passing harmlessly through or least according to quantum mechanics.

I guess I am absolutely certain of something, lawyers would make ideal test subjects, at least according to Shakespeare, and if you define a miracle as a one time occurrence, Benjamin Franklin statement "behold a miracle a lawyer and an honest man" would certainly preclude any honest men being injured while conducting experiments.

PS: thanks for the sentiment TPY45, although pure speculation at this point, I believe this deposition function is anything but to get at the truth. Although I'm not being called as an expert witness, I do intend to inject some physics philosophys into my answers, such as qualifying everything, hopefully at least I can leave them with a headache.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#6

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 1:23 PM

"I have a deposition to give on Monday , totally unrelated, but I'm just curious how others in the engineering community deal with the question of absolute. My opinion, there are absolutely no absolutes,if nothing else I should be able to send a few lawyers into psychoanalysis with that opinion."

Asking about absolutes is the wrong question!

1) Listen to the question.

2) Pause briefly to think. do not let them control your pace.

3) Answer the question only with facts that you can confirm verify or validate.

4) Say nothing more than needed to answer the question.

5) Avoid any self touching behaviors which will clue attentive body language experts as to your level of stress

Thoughtful and terse beats quick and loquacious.

In ohio we have a particular class of ___________ called state highway patrolman. Affectionatly referred to as "Last vestige of the third reich." Tough hombres. They are coached on testimony when they are in training.

"How did you determine the location where the impact occurred?"

"Road debris."

"road debris?"

"Yes."

Could you explain to us what is road debris.

"Yes." (See- he listened to the question)

"Would you please explain for this court waht you mean by road debris, trpr. XYZ"

"road debris is the material dislodged from a vehicle or vehicles at the point of impact deposited on the roadway. Its presence indicates the locus of impact."

6) I have found stringing pairs of mutually exclusive, simultaneously true descriptors delivered with a smile usually drives the attorneys crazy and entertains the jurors. An entertained juror is a favorable juror.

One experience:

Atty:"was the intersection dark?" It was 10 pm in february in the middle of a blizzard under a street light.

Milo:"It was dark, but lighted."

A:"Describe the driver of the other vehicle."

M:"The driver of the other vehicle was large and was dressed in a winter coat."

A:"Was the driver male or female?"

M:"I don't know, they kept their coat on."

A:"What was the visibility?"

"I could see the traffic light, the lines on the road, and what appeared to be a cell phone in the hand of the driver of the other vehicle as it ran through the stop sign, the back of which I saw just before impact."

They generally don't like the jury to hear such facts. They prefer to discredit witnesses. Its tough to discredit testimony when everything is verifiable.

It ain't about absloutes. Its about what is "provable" to some standard. The standard I used was evidenced above. I presented facts that could not be refuted and would be reasonable under thecircumstances described. "dark but lighted."

Enjoy.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 663
#7
In reply to #6

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 3:00 PM

Cheers Milo..
Another entertaining post.
The :"I don't know, they kept their coat on." conjured up a lovely image.

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#8
In reply to #7

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 3:07 PM

Great to hear from you Del.

The depositions for the department of commerce weren't any where near as entertaining. They wanted us to divest an old large diameter bar mill on grounds of monopoly after the merger. Like the duopoly that existed before was a major problem...

The advice in that situation was: " if it helps your business case, it probably won't help your antitrust case petition..."

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#9
In reply to #8

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 3:51 PM

Hello Milo:

I'm watching the post as I do paperwork for tomorrow, and so far everything has been on-topic, both of your post were hopeful thank you, and illustrative of my conundrum.

Your Highway Patrol example is precisely what confounds me, whether or not it's highway patrolman or liars lawyers, all are trained to hide inconvenient truths. I'm afraid I'm ill-prepared, I got a D in my high school debating class, I couldn't take the con side against nuclear power.

The emerging consensus is say as little as possible, and don't worry about telling the whole truth, a difficult concept especially when your occupation encompasses discovering what actually caused a failure for instance, instead of what can I blame this on.

My fallback position is going to be, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with_______

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply
4
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#10
In reply to #9

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 4:12 PM

Glad to Help, YW.

Your fall back position stinks.Lawyers eat Bullsh*t for lunch. Then they hand you a bill for lobster.

BS won't be baffling anyone.

Given your further comments, I would urge you to not see it as "not the whole truth" as much as "This is the truth as I can establish it.And Here is how I did establish it."

BS is slippery and sure to cause a fall.

You aren't debating, you're being deposed. Tell them "what you know and how you know it" Period.

Save the compliments for their pink brassiere and garters for after dinner cocktails, when you're not under oath.

You are clearly a savvy professional whose testimony is needed. Be a savvy professional and share with them your clarity, your understanding, and how it is that you came to be so clear and understanding. Thats all that is required.

This is an area where de minimus is perfectly appropriate.

Let us know how it goes. We'll be pulling for you.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Etats Unis
Posts: 1871
Good Answers: 45
#11
In reply to #6

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

11/30/2008 10:58 PM

Testifying once against two dirtbags that stole items from my car the prosecuting attorney asked me "Did you give these individuals permission to take those items from your car?"

The quickly informed me that the correct form of the answer should not start out "You're kidding me, right?" "Just answer the question sir!"

__________________
The hardest thing to overcome, is not knowing that you don't know.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#25
In reply to #11

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 12:02 PM

My reply would probably have been something like, "If locking the door to the vehicle, placing the vehicle in my garage and locking all entrances to the garage and placing the key to the vehicle and garage in my similarly locked house constitutes permission, then yes, otherwise hell no!" In Texas, their presence on my property constitutes them giving me permission to shoot them dead.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Next to the Prime Merridian (51°29'34.50"N 0°13'32.85"W)
Posts: 780
Good Answers: 1
#13

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 4:42 AM

These days financial survival is a must for even large companies therefore, they too can go resort to anything - independent laboratory...tell them to prove their claim under your watchful eyes.

Better if you take somebody along with you, just to make sure do not miss a thing at the Demo, especially when it comes to 34%...that is admirable.

__________________
Making mistake is part of learning.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#14

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 5:53 AM

Anybody read this in Scientific American?

http://scientificamericandigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssuePreview&ARTICLEID_CHAR=94353518-3048-8A5E-102E7607FC0F1CBD

"Electric fields can boost a car's gas mileage by up to 20 percent, thanks to a well-known effect in which electric fields reduce the viscosity of a liquid [see "Electrorheological Fluids"; Scientific American, October 1993]. Reduced fuel viscosity means that much smaller droplets can be injected into the engine, leading to more efficient combustion. Investigators at Temple University thinned fuel by attaching an electrically charged tube to a diesel engine's fuel line near the fuel injector. In road tests, the attachment, which consumed less than 0.1 watt, increased highway fuel economy from 32 to 38 miles per gallon. The researchers, who describe the boost in the November 19 Energy & Fuels, expect the device will find use in all kinds of internal-combustion engines"

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Next to the Prime Merridian (51°29'34.50"N 0°13'32.85"W)
Posts: 780
Good Answers: 1
#15
In reply to #14

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 9:19 AM

C'mon mate! That's like 15years ago and they're only taking it more seriously now? Sorry, I don't buy it. Even if they're rite what took them so long?

This should have made Mr Bush feel lot more comfy in the hot-seat at the Kyoto treaty a few years ago. (I think the printable solar-cell will come about a lot sooner than this...call it whatever.)

__________________
Making mistake is part of learning.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#16
In reply to #14

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 10:01 AM

The "secret" to judging scientific articles is always the source of funding and the citations.

Find a full article link on this paper and look at the funding. Then check out that source. Look for financial links between Temple and the source. Check to see if that source has had any problems (for example, an enjoinder from the SEC).

Then look at the other papers cited. Do they look impressive? Are there big-time agencies and universities in there? Finally, has this paper been cited by legitimate researchers?

The paper looks pretty impressive, but there's an important technical question. They claim to dramatically improve viscosity with this device and that improves combustion. Two points: Are we to believe that without doing this, around 20% of diesel leaves the exhaust unburned? Why didn't anybody ever think of this before..wait what's that? Oh, they did. You say people preheat diesel? Well that should improve viscosity. Oh? Yes, that's why they preheat it. No, that doesn't seem to affect mileage.

Mmm? I think I'll wait to buy stock.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#19
In reply to #16

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 10:33 AM

Good morning TPY45:

Don't buy the stock, listening to stockmarket report this morning expect selloff for profit taking, California real estate shaky, GM Ford Chrysler asking for 25 billion.

Besides the fuel economy increase of 34% is superior with the catalyst. Believe best investment opportunity still to be my downhill freeway system. If you wish to invest just deposit money in my PayPal account, I will then send you stock certificates which which can be converted into free energy by burning in your fireplace once you print them.

Got to go get ready to go into the lie in lions den.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Commentator

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 89
Good Answers: 1
#17

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 10:17 AM

I would recommend that you buy one of the magnet devices that you clamp to the fuel line, they only cost around $20. That way you get screwed for only $20.

Customer Beware of scams there is not law against them.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#20
In reply to #17

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 10:35 AM

BAd advice!

I prefer

1) to do the screwing;

and

2) to be paid for doing the screwing

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#27
In reply to #20

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 12:22 PM

Consider a career in swimming pool maintenance.....

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply
Member

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 5
#23
In reply to #17

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 11:35 AM

It will stand the possibility of working as long as the fuel line is replaced with a non-braided section where the magnet is placed. If it is installed on the braided section, the steel reinforcement (that helps prevent rupture under high pressure) will cancel the magnetic field, thereby exhibiting a "non-result". Unfortunately by changing to a non-braided fuel line, engine warranty is void. There are Systems that will magnetically clean oils and diesel fuels extremely well, with no affect on manufacturers warranty. The Halex Coil has had over 12 years of successful in-field results on large equipment (mobile and stationary and tons of lab results). You may wish to read further on the website.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 153
Good Answers: 3
#18

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 10:26 AM

ANYTHING that will send attorneys int o psychoanalysis IS not to be altered molested or disturbed in ANY way!!!!

'da ber

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Member

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 5
#21

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 11:16 AM

In response to your first question. Most consumers would look at the 34% increase to be a bit too unbelievably much (and personally, I'm not convinced at all, not with 1 lab result, on 1 piece of equipment. That, is no proof of a theory.). Improvements that are shown to the Big 3 are usually rejected, as they want no competition to their "supply-side mentality". They live with built-in, pre-planned obsolescence and we, as users of their product lines, succumb. We accept their mediocrity and think because they are employers (direct & indirect) of a majority of North Americans, we should support them. This is wrong.

Normally if an improvement is brought to any of the auto/truck builders, their first reaction is how will they be affected (read: $$$), not how can we improve our product. For them to incorporate a device that would benefit the consumer with a 34% fuel benefit, their supply side would be affected, and that is not what they want. Years ago, when I was involved in flea markets, for 10 years (back in the 80's) I was set up to a vendor we called 'Sparky', an old retiree that traveled up and down the East Coast between Ontario and Florida. His device looked impressive on his old Cadillac with the removable hood. He seemed always to convince enough of the public to part with $50 for a decent enough supplement to his small pension check. With a promise of improved fuel mileage (10-15%), none, but only a few ever complained, as some did see some results. Not many, mind you. A small percentage improvement is almost always impossible to prove out to the average Consumer traveling to WalMart from home. To change their driving habits is next to impossible and no one wants to admit to being fleeced by a gimmick.

The auto/truck sector manufacturers, oil companies, filter companies, and the like, are all in bed together and do their utmost to slow down the improvements consumers ultimately see. The ability to drive the average car with oil changes in the 40-50,000 mile range is available to Joe Public now. Improvements can be had in small incremental steps. Does Detroit want to share that knowledge with you. No! Never! It slows their profits dramatically.

With the possibility of Chapter 11 hanging over all their heads, a fresh approach has to take hold of the executive talent (out with the dinosaurs), rank and file members and our politicos', because the way it is being run now, is definately not sustainable in the long run. Resources, which to a large extent are non-renewable, are diminishing at an alarming rate and our long-term, collective well-being, is in jeopardy.

Sorry for the rant, (and I could go on further) but .....I needed to get that off my chest. Thanks!

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
3
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 245
#22

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 11:31 AM

Utter and total scam. Garbage.

The test report from the 350 Chevy, on its first page, has the year whited out. That's to disguise the fact that the test was performed (in 2000) on a 1979, carbureted engine! About one in a million drivers drive antique cars. Even if the results came remotely close to supporting the claims for 34% increase in fuel economy, they clearly had to look long and hard to find a car on which they could come up with any gain ostensibly attributable to the device. Testing a carbureted 350ci car at an actually hp output of 7.0 or 5.9 hp is not remotely representative of real world. The increased fuel mileage was at 5.9 hp, as would be expected, but none of this is significant. The only purpose for this test was to show that the device could be sold in California because it does not adversely effect emissions.

Of course, the whole idea of acumulating 500 miles between tests invalidates the test. To get a valid measure (if some looney tune believed that the 500 and 1000 mile accumuations were really necessary) the Fitch device would have to be removed immediately after the last test, and another test performed. This is obvious, but was not performed.

The law the test papers refer to is this:

(c) No person shall install, sell, offer for sale, or advertise any device, apparatus, or mechanism intended for use with, or as a part of, ( )1 a required motor vehicle pollution control device or system ( )4 that alters or modifies the original design or performance of ( )5 the motor vehicle pollution control device or system.

So if the device is legal in CA, then it does nothing.

Of course, 1979 Chevies do not recirculate fuel they way modern fuel injected cars do. Therefore the fuel in the tank is unaffected by this device. Thus the 500 mile and 1000 mile results are even more nonsensical -- but clearly, testing at different hp outputs, and such low outputs is invalid as a measue of fuel efficiency.

And this is the best they can come up with: just two gasoline engine tests, neither current, and both flawed and skewed.

The torque and hp curves for the 1998 Corvette test show that the performance is essentially the same, with and without the device. The "cursor" position (at which the quoted hp and torque figures are displayed) appears deliberately deceptive, to me. It seems chosen to reflect a much larger advantage than even the flawed test would support. If the cursor were positioned at 84 mph, the "results" would be reversed. If it were positioned at 74 mph, there would be huge apparent disadvantages to the device.

Utter BS.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#24
In reply to #22

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 11:51 AM

Always a pleasure toread your posts Ken.

Milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 245
#33
In reply to #24

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 10:15 PM

Many thanks Milo. Likewise.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#36
In reply to #33

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/02/2008 6:14 AM

Yup, I agreed with Milo, Ken

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#26
In reply to #22

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 12:09 PM

Milo, there is also no reference to the way that the vehicle was driven. I can effect a 34% improvement in mileage just by driving everywhere at 30 mph. It'd take forever, but it would improve my mileage.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
2
Commentator

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 59
Good Answers: 2
#28

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 1:04 PM

Things like this really discredit Sears.

Lawyers,

When the question has a subject of them, those, the, he, she, it anything besides specific ask for clarification, even if you fully understand.

You are playing Jeopardy, respond only to a specific question and not a statement.

If it is a question that requires a string of answers, give them one answer for each time the question is repeated.

The questioners have no power your answers don't give them.

Predicate every answer with "I believe" "I think" "Very Likley" "As I remember"

When the questioner finally tell you answer specifically still predicate the answer.

When they ask you to answer with yes or no as best you remember then add "I believe yes" when he/she gripes without asking a question then say you don't like the limited choice of answers.

If you are an expert, as stated earlier, only answer what you can verify. If they want you to study it and give your opinion ask that they sign a consulting contract.

I have done these things.

All of my answers are short and I don't explain anything in enough detail so that another question is always required.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#29

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 4:49 PM

Here is their web site http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/

Defiantly a case of extraordinary claims needing extraordinary proof.

Seem to have many followers http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/products/reviews.cfm

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#32
In reply to #29

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 8:56 PM

I went to the ASPI website and read the first test report on the Fitch product installed in a Chevy Impala with a 350 V8. The report refers to "preconditioning" before each of 3 tests, resulting in 13.121 mpg, 13.967 mpg and 17.650 mpg respectively. No information on the details of the preconditioning was given.

IMHO this lack of disclosure on the nature of the preconditioning is sufficient to render the stated results and conclusions to be totally lacking in credibility. I saw no reason to read any other test information published on their site.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#34

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/01/2008 11:35 PM

I did do an online search for the test results for the Fitch device. No results were evident. I do not know what caused the problem. Yes there is a possibility it was caused by spyware but I cannot say definitively yes or no.

I forgot I'm not being deposed anymore, I must've been severely distracted , the only information I uncovered was JC Whitney adds and like, (how embarrassing) when I did a quick search for the test results. Congratulations to all that found and analyze the test results, at least now I can send whoever I find to contact at Sears some information questioning the validity of this device, besides my opinion which was basically the only way they could get a 34% increase in fuel economy is if the device was used to replace a leaking section in the fuel line.

I find it highly doubtful that anything will come of contacting even a reputable retailer like Sears, I will let all know if anything does, I'm sure some unsuspecting consumer could find something better to spend 300 plus dollars on. There is at least a possibility Sears will respond, the odds are about the same as finding an honest lawyer.

Again thanks to all for your help with the deposition, while the question of absolutes remains open as far as science, the advice to qualify remarks and answers was extremely useful.

Yes I believe the earth is round, but I have not measured it myself, therefore I am not absolutely certain. Although this was not one of the questions,That's about as close to an absolute as they got out of me. Honorable mention to Milo, for the most part I was able to contain my responses, only had to bite my tongue on a few occasions.

The advice on limiting your responses to what you can prove was also helpful, when the deposing attorney attempted to pin me down on a date closer than the one year or so timeframe that I was comfortable with, my response was I could not get any closer on the date but I can tell you the job and the piece of equipment that I was working on, and you can research it from company records if you like.

Round two scheduled sometime in the next month, words fail me in my an attempt to express my joy at this prospect. Or at least words that Chris or one of the other editors would delete my post for.

PS: while not admitting anything, never let an AC guy around a thermostat. I am perfectly comfortable at 65° (no they never got to see me sweat) the the deposing counsel complained that she was cold.

Never let it be said that I am not obliging, when the others requested some water, I offered to help my attorney get the water from the breakroom, (breakroom approximately 74°F) as I leisurely ask my counsel a few questions, stretching the breakout to about 10 or 15 minutes, while the others set shivering in the room.

I don't know it's the little things that give me pleasure.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Next to the Prime Merridian (51°29'34.50"N 0°13'32.85"W)
Posts: 780
Good Answers: 1
#40

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 4:00 AM

I think this 'More miles per gallon' scenario come about as the CEOs' problem.

__________________
Making mistake is part of learning.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#41
In reply to #40

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 7:40 AM

I love the comment about batteries (actually, not ). Does Ford think batteries are free? How much oil does it take to charge a battery? I believe that the failure of even one of the Big 3 will be a disaster for the American mid-west, but what the heck does it take for the auto CEOs to actually understand anything? They're a lot like the old mule we used to have - he was a hard worker and would do what you asked; however, you had to hit him across the butt with an axe handle to get his attention.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Next to the Prime Merridian (51°29'34.50"N 0°13'32.85"W)
Posts: 780
Good Answers: 1
#42
In reply to #41

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 8:53 AM

If you still have that axe handle you might as well get it out and be prepared put it to a good use again. May be those congressmen could use it in the not too distant future on those CEOs when they come to their decissions.

I do not know if I'll be able to follow this event up but I am really curious what is gonna happen to these giants?

__________________
Making mistake is part of learning.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#43
In reply to #41

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 9:05 AM

TVP45, I'm not willing to lay all of the blame on the big 3 (a large portion maybe). I would lay a whole bunch of the blame on the UAW. They have killed the goose that laid the golden egg. GM China is wildly profitable and those profits are in part offsetting the losses in the US. Toyota USA is wildly profitable as well. In fact the Toyota Tundra assembly plant in San Antonio was idled for 3 months due to lack of demand for the pickup. Instead of laying off the workers, Toyota kept the workers on full pay and had them working doing community service work. Even doing that, they turned a profit.

So what is the difference? Unions. Union pensions, union insurance, union work rules, union work bank programs.

Collective bargaining has destroyed the industry.

So I say to all of you. If you are laid off, if your 401K is toast, thank a union member by punching them in the nose.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4513
Good Answers: 88
#63
In reply to #43

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 10:09 AM

They finally found Jimmy Hoffa, btw. He was hiding behind Tammy Faye's makeup.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#45
In reply to #41

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 11:05 AM

HelloTPV45:

I Found That the Statements from Ford's CEO Did Anything but Inspire Confidence in Me. A Friend of Mine Who Is a Corporate Pilot, Told Me He Had Heard Ford's CEO Was Driving to Washington. I'm I am frequently privy to the ridiculous uses of corporate aircraft, however both of us agreed that the CEO of Ford Motor Companys time could have been better spent working to save his company, instead of showboating driving to Washington.

Generally when you perform your job so poorly as to jeopardize the financial stability of your employer you get fired, one of the first uses of the bailout for Wall Street was corporate executives drawing bonuses. However the offer to work for a dollar a year is another ridiculous gesture, a reasonable reduced salary, with no bonuses would have been perfectly acceptable.

The big threes nitch is large SUVs, and trucks these vehicles are currently not selling because of fuel prices, they're not selling because of economic concerns.

Hybrids , fuel cells and batteries are all expensive, the last thing any body is going to buy is an expensive limited use vehicle. However it does play well on the popular press hyping hydrogen and electric vehicles.

More than a sarcastic comment to say that if Congress buys into hydrogen and batteries being a solution, they would be a target demographic for the sale of the in-line fuel catalyst.

Being a technophile I welcome the development of these vehicles, until the inner structure exists to distribute hydrogen, the electrical capacity exist to make the hydrogen and charge batteries from sources other fossil fuels particularly oil (FYI 60 new US nuclear plants in the planning stage) this is certainly no answer.

Is readily in evidence that reduced oil demand resulted in dramatically reduced gasoline prices. Producing hydrogen from electrolysis will probably result in an increase in oil dependency considering all the inefficiencies involved.

As long as were talking billions all the traffic lights in the United States could probably be synchronized for one billion, wouldn't be perfect but it can be started tomorrow. There's no doubt in my not my Detroit needs to be saved, just get rid of the smoke and mirrors and doit.

On the other hand considering all the hot air and BS going on in Congress, we may have uncovered a new energy source.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Next to the Prime Merridian (51°29'34.50"N 0°13'32.85"W)
Posts: 780
Good Answers: 1
#60
In reply to #45

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 2:25 AM

Since you're pretty much up to date on this issue all I can say these companies don't deserve help until they remove their CEOs?

It is not only a public relation disaster, as they put it, but it also shows that they are unwilling to compromise in tough times and perhaps willing to put with one another and travel together to Washington.

To show off their hybrid vehicles to the senate in this dying moment is very unimportant since even Toyota and Honda, the two greatest pioneers of the concept, are feeling the pinching effect of the market also. Yet, it seems they can still afford to treat their employees better.

The senate should let the 3 big ones die and when the market picks up let the better ones further expand and hire the workforce of the 3 big ones.

This is a joke what these cowboys (CEOs) in times like these suddenly willing to crawl even all the way to the capitol to get help which they later would likely to blow anyway.

If the senate has the feel for their icons then they should boot out the current CEOs and get new ones in before any kind of help can be given on strict conditions!

__________________
Making mistake is part of learning.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#62
In reply to #60

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 8:40 AM

Thank you for the CNN link, interesting that 61% of the public does not support to bail out.

I have a friend in the finance department of a large dealership, for several weeks thay have been having trouble getting financing for customers even with credit scores in the 700s.

The financing problem for automobiles was discussed in Congress yesterday, what concerns me about this is I knew about it three weeks ago. It seems with the large billion dollar loans going around it wouldn't require a Mensa to realize three or four billion to finance domestic automobiles would certainly ease the financial crisis in Detroit, and if I had to bet on somebody repaying a loan, it would be an American consumer subject to getting their car repossessed ,over the CEOs any day.

What also concerns is the fact that nobody in Congress apparently foresaw the real estate crisis coming and subsequent financial meltdownwhen.

Pilots, mechanics and contractors, I'm referring to myself and a couple friends, all clearly saw the real estate pyramid schemes impending collapse several years ago, although I have not checked yet to my knowledge none of us have been nominated for the Nobel Prize in economics.

The other interesting thing is the three of us mentioned have all managed to end up in financial disaster one way or another from time to time, but compared to Congress, Wall Street , banking executives and Detroit's CEOs we are rank amateurs regarding the proliferation of financial mayhem.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#64
In reply to #62

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 3:45 PM

Yep, I saw the real estate crisis coming three years ago and divested all of my REIT investments too. At the time there were beginning to be rumbles in California of a bubble about to burst. I ducked and ran.

A few weeks ago when GM and Ford stock tanked to the $2 a share range I decided to gamble a little. I took some money that i had invested in very stable (and non-productive) Pharma stocks and bought GM and Ford stock. My thinking is that the Democrats in congress are nothing but the UAW's meat puppets and there is no way they will allow the two companies to do what they really need to do and file for bankruptcy and get out from under the UAW's contracts so they can bring their fixed costs down. No they'll throw money hand over fist at them until it just isn't politically possible anymore. Meanwhile the UAW will continue to make profitability a distant memory. As soon as the bailout happens, I'm selling the stock and taking my profit and buying Toyota stock instead. I'll kick back and watch the implosion, laughing all the way to the bank. (or more likely the matress. I'm not sure I trust banks anymore.) The UAW can bite me. If GM is lucky, Toyota will buy em out, file bankruptcy, tell UAW to go to hell, and bring them back from the brink. Ford will have to run to Nissan or Mazda or maybe Hyundai. But they'll do the same, they have to. It's the only way for any of them to survive.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#69
In reply to #64

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 5:05 PM

I'd like to think you are wrong but I can find no fault with your logic.

I'm waiting for currency to start to dive and I'll move to actual commodities. I can make product from the cheap commodities and if currency goes to pot I have barter goods.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#70
In reply to #69

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 5:27 PM

Hello Brad:

I got this link from a crazy friend about a crazy guy talking about the Americo. Probably misspelled that, this is what is supposed to replace the dollar when we go broke.

http://mysticalnights.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=811&p=811#p811

However that is the least of my problems. The United States going broke, OJ gets away with murder (literally) and gets life for stealing his own property , adjusted price of gasoline approaching 1960s levels, Congress giving away $1 trillion to Wall Street, and won't bail out Detroit for the now 30 billion, and what really takes the cake CEOs from the big three carpooling in hybrids, and Congressman questioning them how many people they carpooled with, while considering whether to bail them out or not.

I guess I must admit it, I lined the combustion chambers in the Road Runner with dilithium crystals, I believe an engine imbalance created a Einstein Rosen Bridge. Can anybody tell me how to get back to the reality were the worst thing we had to worry about was the Russians nuking us.

PS; there is a signpost up ahead with a dark-haired guy smoking a cigarette leaning on it, maybe he knows where I'm at.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#73
In reply to #70

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 6:04 PM

Hello YWROADRUNNER,

While the government had us watching the Ruskies, they finished stealing the country

The world banks moved money into the US for a long time now they are moving out.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#71
In reply to #69

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 5:40 PM

You can always go snag some of those 3' long green and blue Beryls out of the pit that is just down the road from Ducky. Just keep em in a lead box....=D

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#72
In reply to #69

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 5:52 PM

FYI, I've made about 50% over my initial investment last time I checked the numbers.

correction, I just went and looked, I'm down slightly from my peak. I'm only up 355 over my initial investment.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#74
In reply to #72

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 6:08 PM

OOPS! make that 35%

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#75
In reply to #72

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 6:10 PM

Would you shut up already, (just kidding) I was in the deposition last Monday when Ford hit $2.01. Thank goodness I hadn't put the two dollar buy- order in that I was thinking about doing, our I would be p......l at this point. However if I'd been home I definitely would've bought at 2.01.

My pilot buddy bought a little before you at a dollar fifty something so he keeps telling me he's up 78% or so, and he makes sure to tell me that every time we talked. So go ahead guys just keep kicking me while I'm down.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 245
#76
In reply to #75

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 6:40 PM

I bought at 1.02 on Nov 20. I'm really ticked off, because it went down to 1.01. With 2 million shares, that 1 cent difference ads up.

OK, OK, OK... I'm lying. But even at only 900,000 shares, it still adds up.

Well, OK, I'm lying about that too.... but wouldn't it be nice? But then I'd have to decide... do I sell right now? It's better to be poor.

Really.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#77
In reply to #76

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 8:43 PM

I'm off (at least half a bubble if I get into the stock market right now) waiting for orthopedic surgery. I figured I'd try my hand at the day trade bit. Believe me I'm not going risk very much.

Of course as I've always maintained Murphy is the one absolute in this world, so of course the stock dropped to $2.01 while I was being deposed.

On the other hand I wouldn't want to be 5 feet from the computer while Congress is in session deciding the fate of Detroit.

You now have me Thinking about Murphy, maybe I better get an uninterruptible power supply and put that third computer together. You have now brought visions of reaching to push the sell button as the stock enters a free fall, and watching my screens either go blank or blue.

On second thought maybe I should buy a couple of thousand shares of a penny stock. But you're right it would be nice.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Canada - Member - If there is a way to screw someting up, there is someone to do so! Safety - Hazmat - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Iqaluit, NU. Canada
Posts: 1852
Good Answers: 140
#59
In reply to #41

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/04/2008 7:27 PM

My God... can it be? Your mule has been reincarnated as my dog.

__________________
Joe Contractor to Electrical Inspector, "What do you mean you are going to make me follow the code?".
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#61
In reply to #59

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 6:18 AM

I know the breed.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Anonymous Poster
#51

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 7:54 PM

Welcome to CR4.

The Caps Lock Key is the 3rd big wide key from the bottom on the left of your keyboard. It says "Caps Lock" on it.

Push it once and it will change the way your type looks! FROM THIS TO this!

Push it two times and nothing happens! Just like the magic magnetic viscosity thing- a-ma-bob that started this thread.

SINS U COMPLEETD HUKED ON FONIX, U SHUD TRY THZ:

http://web.uvic.ca/calendar2008/CDs/ENGL/099.html

ALL ARE BEZ TO U.

SINED

ITCHIMANS LUCKING FOR PROBLEM

Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#52

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 7:55 PM

"HEY I DONT THINK WE NEED ITCHI MEN LIKE YOU JUST LUCKING FOR PROBLEM IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT BUY IT I SEE LOT PSICLO IN OTHER TREAD FORUN LIKE YOU"

What the hell are you talking about, (and to who?), and why are you yelling at us?

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 229
#53

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 8:00 PM

Hello Guest,

Once you have mastered the "caps Lock" button on your computer, check out the small "spellcheck" button above the text entry box when writing a Topic or Post.

It's the button just to the right of the smiley button, and it is marked ABC with a small green tick under those letters.

Of course it is a US spelling checker, so if you are from where the Queen's English is used, just use the Spellchecker Addon to Firefox browser (UK English).

Thrust you feel assisted.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#54

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 8:54 PM

Well guys I figured he was mad at me for some reason, but considering the post he could of been mad at anybody on any forum. I just want to admonish you against engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#55
In reply to #54

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 9:01 PM

"I just want to admonish you against engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

Really, really, good point. I'm sure you will sleep good tonight, as so will I. This stuff just does make my day.

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#56
In reply to #54

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 9:04 PM

If his intent was to sew confusion and bewilderment he may of succeeded?

WTFWT?

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#57
In reply to #56

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 9:20 PM

Now I'm really concerned, I believe I know who it is, someone who posted on another thread claiming to have circumvented thermal dynamics.

I also believe I know what he is saying, the concept of concern that innocent consumers may be cheated by purchasing useless devices may have eluded him. It is obvious most of us on this forum would not purchase such a device, we know better.

What concerns me is my epiphany in deciphering the rather cryptic post, I believe it's time to get Road Runner and a stopwatch out and go check my sanity, Blue Thunder style.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4513
Good Answers: 88
#58
In reply to #57

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/03/2008 9:22 PM

Don't be concerned, YWRR. We captured it and returned it to the lab. As this is your thread, we'd be happy to beam it into Deep Space for you at no extra charge.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#65
In reply to #58

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 3:54 PM

If any of us are using wireless internet, we already did..... now in a few million years some BEM will be scratching it's cranial carapace with it's fifth tentacle wondering what in hell it meant too....

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4513
Good Answers: 88
#66
In reply to #65

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 4:06 PM

And then it would be our bad luck for it to be intercepted by some InterGalactic EPA and our planet would be fined lord knows how many Credits for not pre-processing our EM effluent. They might even send the Vogons to clean up the place. Ready your towel, just in case.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#67
In reply to #66

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 4:11 PM

They can shout Vogon poetry at me all they like, I'm deaf in one ear anyway.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#78
In reply to #66

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/06/2008 1:23 AM

Go to Gort and say, "Klaatu barada nikto."

Got to go now they're coming to take me away.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Kiefer OK
Posts: 1325
Good Answers: 22
#79
In reply to #78

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/06/2008 8:05 PM

Got to go now they're coming to take me away.

At least you're ready to go!

__________________
I wonder..... Would Schrödinger's cat play with a ball of string theory?
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 229
#80
In reply to #79

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/06/2008 9:16 PM

Hello 3Doug

More like

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#68
In reply to #58

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

12/05/2008 4:47 PM

a Pear ant lee. That post seams 2 haf diss a peer'd

chuz ware is yor lab, you rop he um?

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Anonymous Poster
#81

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

02/18/2009 11:54 PM

http://www.pmcycles.com/HP%20TV.htm

The Fitch Fuel Catalyst works, but not like some people think it should work. Its not going to get you hundreds of more mileage.

On avg. maybe 1-2 mile more. Fitch even comes out and says this, so it's no a surprise when you find out ur not making a whole lot of mileage.

FFC does so much more for your engine, i suggest going to their web site.

I've used their product for 5 years plus, pretty much since it hit the market.

FFC is a one time deal with a 250,000 mile warranty. You install it once and never again. You don't have to keep reapplying it like a fuel cleaner.

FFC will keep your fuel system clean, lubricates your rings.

It refines the fuel by molecular break down, which makes it easier to com-bust.

It make your acceleration much quicker, but if you drive with the fuel peddle plastered to the sheet metal, fuel mileage is irrelevant to this equation.

Me, I've got twitchy legs and i can't sit still so, my gas peddle is glued to the carpet.

I bought the FFC for the performance side, not the fuel savings.

I believe that fuel savings are completly in your head! Why think how many things effect your fuel milage. Too many things to keep up with, things you can't even change IE weather,terrain, altitude. You're better off in a starait jacket.

It hurts to much to think about fuel mileage.

Take it easy out there, it's not worth stressing over.

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 150
#82
In reply to #81

Re: More miles per gallon, Absolute scam?

02/19/2009 12:09 AM

I suspect that "Guest" works for Fitch.

This is total and unadulterated snake oil. The people selling this should be in prison.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 82 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

3Doug (1); Anonymous Poster (3); barfnagler (1); Blink (3); Bricktop (3); Del the cat (3); Ed Weldon (2); emc_c (1); h2om (1); Isti80 (5); LG_Dave (3); Magneto111 (2); Milo (6); North of 60 (1); rcapper (1); Rorschach (10); Sciesis2 (1); Sparkstation (4); travelerengineer (1); Turbotroll3 (1); TVP45 (5); U V (4); user-deleted-13 (7); YWROADRUNNER (13)

Previous in Forum: 1/3 of China’s Yellow River Not Even Fit for Industrial Use   Next in Forum: how to become a CBI officre

Advertisement