Would You Help a High School Student?

Sounds good to me, especially if you've filtered them.
We may need reminding to keep the humour/sarcasm/off topicness toned down a tad...
But on the other hand exposure to talking Cats/Squirrels etc is generally beneficial.
I think we generally react well as long as the questioners are keen.
Del

If all goes as planned with the project. I was thinking I might create a new user account for the class as a whole

I thought a few people had already done exactly that.

You better run this idea through with Chris Leonard. I think it could be a good idea, but have a lot or reservations; This place could turn into teen-town overnight, the idea seems against site policy on homework etc etc. Your intent is admirable, but it needs discussing with CR4's Editor & Admins. Seeking member opinion is good, but this is one case where a democratic vote isn't the way to decide.

Kris, Aged 20 1/4

A can of tuna for Del and good thoughts from Kris.

One thing to consider is my students being, behind a razor wire fence, will only have access to CR4 through an interactive whiteboard connected to my own account. So in this aspect, it will be very controlled. If I was in a regular public classroom, I wouldn't have the same control, so it might be a different situation.

Regardless, I'll definitely follow up with admin.

The State pen worries me even more - I don't know how it turns out if you try to bake a cake with a weapon in it . If I succeed, but it's gone wrong, your class might seek terrible revenge. If the FBI intercept, they'll try extradite me. Are they willing to offer cash instead of GA's ?

Sorry, I'm being frivolous. Teaching kindergarten must be hell.

How about getting them to analyze the Challenge Questions. Some of them are a hoot, and the level of difficulty shouldn't be a problem;

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/8260/Two-Conductors-CR4-Challenge-02-24-09

As you'll observe, people will still argue various opinions no matter what. The topics are usually all explained at some point in good detail (ie from basic level up), the subject matter is wide, and so everyone can play. Depends how often your class meet, but you could track either the weekly or monthly Question.

If you're the one vetting and posting comments, you could use your own ID and simply add "DAG's class" at the bottom of any post your charges want you to make. The reply rate is high in the first few days of a new question, but you could go though it all with your class, then post their replies (ie one post from you, including "Lefty asks.....", "Nitro says....." and so on).

I hope Chris posts some comment here, it should be interesting.

I have actually shared some challenge questions with them, but I hadn't thought about the dimension that sharing the arguments and different answers would add. That would fall right into the hierarchy of cognitive skills!

Hi DAG,

This sounds fine, especially with the whiteboard connection. A well thought out teacher facilitated engagement would certainly be welcome. We had a bad experience a few years back with students from one school posting nonsense thread after nonsense thread. That being the worst case scenario, your approach is much better and could provide fruit for all involved. Keep me posted about any specific details, and feel free to use the internal mail system to contact me if you have any specific worries or problems along the way.

- Chris

Thanks Chris. Will do on the internal mail thing.

"Free fruit?"

Just cherry pits for you and kris (tell kris they're nuts).

Seriously this idea can't be any worse than the "engineering student" questions that we get all the time. If the questions are teacher screened, then they will be a lot better. We always have the option to skip a particular question that we aren't in the mood to answer. GO FOR IT!

"engineering student" questions are not the worst.. its the ones that are Guest, ask a question wanting answers that cover an entire discipline, but never clarify and never write another post.. never return.. those bug me. like talking to a wall.

at least some of the engineering student projects are interesting and a bit interactive.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Few months back you had suggested starting a Engineer's Blog. Are you going ahead with this project?.I feel it will be good platform to share long experience of CR4 members.

Regards,

Suresh.Sharma.

I agree with all comments above.

Now my opinion:

I welcome this for the value of the "different perspective" from the non-engineering folks we interact with.

I find I learn a tremendous amount when teaching engineering / tech to "non" type students.

Some of the questions thy come up with are so much "outside the box"!!

Yeah, some aren't great either but if the students are interested and want to learn, I learn just as much and sometimes more.

About THEM!!

DAG, Chris L., I'm on board - anything I can do to help.

As long as it was obviously coming through you - and I think you've already assured us of that - I'd have no problem with it.

Any specific branch of engineering?

The class is a general physical science class. However, the first step in the project will probably be some E&M stuff. I have a written a lab in which they will build a speaker out of a plastic cup. Now I'm just trying to work the lab into a particular format (and gathering materials). The result of this particular lab will be for the students to create some sort of electromechanical device (based on speaker design) as the solution to some real world problem. I haven't worked out all of the kinks yet, but I'm hoping that it will work.

Regardless of the assignment, I think some interaction with real life problem solvers (engineers) will be greatly beneficial to them.

I can imagine the 'Plastic Cup Speaker' thread generating quite a stir !

Your students will also learn that every one who offers advice here will not be an expert in the field of discussion. They will have to judge the merits of each answer before accepting or rejecting it.

This will also be a test for some of our more loquacious learned cr4 members to keep it to the point. Just kidding guys.

BTW, shouldn't we be calling it, the EM part, a transducer? You install a speaker cone onto a transducer/frame to yield a loud speaker. Sorry.

Good luck!

LL

Oddly enough, the point is exactly where I'd start. A needle thru the base of a plastic cup works fine for playing records*. After that, I'd make some string can telephones, and wreck a few old style telephones. Just for fun and to establish some basic principles. Somewhere in all that I'd fit in making a Morse telegraph, and make some copper coils etc etc etc etc^∞.

*Obviously their parents most treasured ones

DAG and co. I'd be interested in participation as well.

Hey, if it works out, I might even get a few interested folk here to copy the "speaker in a cup" as a menas to learn and have some fun.

You've got my vote. For what it's worth.

We (society) do so little for people trying to learn, compared to what we do for those in athletics... Count me in!

Now for the question, would users of CR4, in general, mind receiving questions (some may seem elementary or not well thought out) from high school students?

Do you think that the present questions being raised are all well thought and not elementary?

Let students ask any stupid (looking) questions. Better to have stupid questions from students than to have those from adults. Only thing expected is he/ she should have tried to solve it before posting it on CR4. He/she should not just shoulder the responsibity of study to others.

All cats/ squirrels/ducks/bears(baby)/heros/powers/germans/guyes are here to help them.

Good one teach ! For once i have heard a good idea from a teacher !

I suggest you let them all send whatever thoughts they have and leave them alone .

My personal experince with teachers is not a positive one and after reading your intro. i must admit that teachers havent changed after 35 years and will probably never change.

I speak for us all here and hope to hear from your kids asap. It would be very good to hear from the generation that will come after us !!

Count me in.. no restrictions on the questions.. philosophical, career or technical or cognitive. its all good. and of course, hanging around this group, they will get a full dose of irreverent (not irrelevant) humour!

Chris

Sounds like a good idea - I am retired and do training and find that such an idea could be helpful. I keep putting together what I can as "tutorial notes" on a broad science and chemistry background.

As long as there is a filter OK leaving it open to some of the modern youth who are vandals on a self destruct course scares me a bit.

The white board idea sounds good - would you use skype?

No skype...the powers that be have it blocked...I guess you can't be too careful with our clientele...

I think it is a great idea, agree with gsuhas however that they must have thought about it / investigated it first. Filtering should take care of that however. In my opinion machine head, to be a good teacher you must be willing to learn from your students in any way possible, and this would be a good opportunity.

Indeed...I try to think of myself as the chief learner in the classroom...

Couldn't agree more - think I have found out a lot just in trying to explain things to students

I think its a great idea. Maybe we can make a separate forum for this group of kids so we know when we are answering their questions. So that we don't think we are doing some one outside our familys (and what a strange family we are) HOMEWORK for them.

Sounds good to me, the next possible generation of wanna be engineers. The world needs them.

This is a great opportunity to generate interest in science and engineering. How often do students (High School and below) have access to a source of information and experience available. I agree with the questions being vetted by you in order to keep the frivolous comments to a minimum.

This will also give CR4 community to interact with some future engineers and scientist.

Bravo to you on your initiative.

no frivolous comments? you've not been hanging round the same CR4 I have!

What the heck, let's try to turn them into engineers.

Are you going to complain when they learn sarcasm and cynicism as well?

That's my plan. I'm the son of an engineer and trained in mathematics and physics, but called to share the passion with the students. If they all became engineers, I will consider my task accomplished!

I'll only complain about their sarcasm and cynicism if it's not well thought out .

Though I am new to the site I would have no issues with helping out if I can. At 27 years old I'm still young enough to remember how few teachers were willing to go the extra mile for there students. An opportunity like this would have been a welcome addition to my high school years. Were I'm from in Canada our opportunities to interact with strong scientific or engineering minds was very limited if it ever happened at all, so it's nice to see someone who is taking such a great interest in the future of there kids, especially under privileged teens. If you need any info on the high vacuum industry drop me a line and I would be glad to help.

DAG,

In a effort to keep myself fine tuned and challenged I have collected a number of textbooks, problems, simple to complicated experiments, video lab demonstrations, audio and video lectures, web discussion and old exams with solutions. The problems range in skill level from Canadian high school to Graduate work in the subject areas of physics, mathematics and chemistry.

I would be happy to look through for some public licence material for you or point you to some resources. MIT OCW has a multiple years of material now.

I may not be qualified enough to help, but I think this is a great project. I hope it works out well.

Excellent idea and a new venue for sharing our accumulated practical knowledge.

I try to share as much as I can and ponder ways to do it very often,

Kudos for a very great idea,

I can't speak for the others but I will answer any question that I think I know something about. I really don't care why someone is asking a question, the point to me is that I tried to help. Allot of people try to weed out the people that seem to be looking for the easy way out by asking questions instead of finding out for them selves and I can understand this. I had rather spend my time answering the question than figuring out why someone asked it. If I do answer a question that someone asked because they are lazy and don't want to do the research they still end up learning from the answer IMO.

I believe that you will get a range of answers to any one question that range from thoughtful, scientific answers by professionals to answers that are worse than meaningless and off-target. I'd suggest that you, or some faculty aids, screen the answers so as not to confuse or discourage the students. Otherwise, it sounds like a great idea. This might generate a new site in CR4 for these kinds of Q & A from hundreds of schools. It should also make interesting reading.

Interesting point you make.

I'm never a fan of censorship of any kind for any reason. I would consider the benefit of teaching the students how to distinguish between "thoughtful, scientific answers by professionals" and "answers that are worse than meaningless and off-target".

As long as they have access to the internet each student will require the skills to differentiate between the two. This would teach them good scientific work practices too.

Hypothesis, experiment or research, conclude.

Without this you are just teaching people to ask for help and not to think for themselves. What happens when they don't have anyone to ask anymore?

Sounds good to me. Count me in!

As several people here have pointed out, you will get a large variety of ideas here. You and your class will likely have to also filter our comments, just because of the large volume of ideas presented here.

I like the plastic cup speaker idea, too. Many ideas already come to my mind about how to prove that the cup is moving and not just the magnet. Does reversing the electromagnet leads make a difference, etc.

you can direct questions to my e-mail sumarthandan@gmail.com.

S.Udhayamarthandan

You are posing as if you know answers to any sort of questions.

Please note, no individual on this globe is capable of answering all the questions. No body is master of all the subjects. Thats why CR4 is great forum with many well experienced engineers / other experienced people.

You post disgraces the country you are from (and could be known from your name)

Easy now, Mr. Guest. I think s.udhayamarthandan was just being helpful. Sometimes it's much quicker to email than to post. I for one, appreciate his enthusiasm.

Ok, but every problem that has ever been solved was solved by someone who initially knew nothing about it…

Even if any individual can't solve it, a group collaborative could work on.

Personally I hope for questions that I have no idea where to start. That means I can continue as the student.

Guest,

There is nothing harm in sharing and guiding projects of youngers,If it is known, guide or direct or one can say I HAVE NO IDEA..I make my boys as knowledge seekers in every walks of their life.It is simple.

This sounds like a really good idea. Young people have quicker minds, and giving them a chance to have their questions answered in 'real' time is a huge benefit to keeping them interested enough to learn. It must be tough being a science teacher even in the best of circumstances. Some students probably come to the subject already infected with bad attitudes about the subject. Others will come up with really good questions that just happen to fall into one of your blind spots. If the answer is too long in coming, it's pretty likely that they will have moved on. The forum can help fill this gap. Most of the time somebody here will come up with a cogent answer to a technical question within a few hours.

More important, when the threads don't reach a conclusion so quickly, your students may even learn that there is often serious debate among the 'experts' about the 'right' answer. Sometimes you just have to learn to think things through. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty trying to answer the question yourself. The world needs more people with an understanding of scientific/engineering skills, even if they don't end up following that path with their lives.

Dag,

In the category of something so obvious it can be overlooked, live interaction may not be practical. Look at the variety of locations from this thread's responders. The wide variety and location of the people chatting here is one of the charms of this group. But you and your class should not expect immediate discussion from all.

Indeed... They will have to understand the limitations of such a venue. I'm sure they do anyway being used to Myspace and Facebook. Most of the kids I teach use these networking tools extensively. I can say, however, that they don't necessarily use them for as a tool for learning in the academic sense... I like for my students to have the tools to continue learning outside of the classroom and this [CR4] is by all means a great tool for continued learning.

DAG,

When I was a college student I used to do substitute teaching to make extra money. It was a lot of fun. I think this is a great idea. I can remember some very interesting questions coming from some gifted students; for instance, once I was asked to explain Schrodinger's cat thought experiment, the Michelson/Morley experiment, Thomas Young's double slit experiment and the ole so famous thought experiment of Einstein's twin paradox just to name a few. Oh yeah, my favorite question of all was, "...if you are in a car that is moving at the speed of light and you turn the headlights on what will happen?" I think it'll be fun.

However the most interesting responses to me are engineers hypothesizing solutions outside their area of expertise. Someone who has been taught that things are a certain way do not look for other solutions

For that in itself I give you a GA. It's a damn good way of looking at things. Interdisciplinary science is potentially one of the most fruitful areas of research and problem solving. The world is probably littered with people struggling to find an answer for a particular problem, unaware that an approach to an almost identical problem has been found in another area of science/engineering/art/whatever.

Rather then adjust the names, why not have them all join a group? Say by class/grade level? This could encourage some class challenges posted by members.

I like that idea.

I think thats a great idea anyway.. but I still think the naming convention is reasonable..allows them to participate in any thread any group, and be identified.. not that they couldn't participate meaningfully. I knew some guys in high school who were very knowledgeable and verbose...

I don't propose it to be discriminatory.. but helpful. People, knowing you are a student, would tend to give you a more thougthful answer. (I hope) and therefore, provide more value to that student.

PS... Lanark County?

I have to agree with your idea, one thing to add is if I did not know that I was responding to a student I would be likely to use technical language as apposed to bringing the language down to something they would understand at there grade level. I've part of a few posts and I think the language would be a little advanced for someone with little or no knowledge of engineering or scientific principles.

Let me teach you Korean by speaking only English.

Instead of "bringing the language down to something they would understand at there grade level" why not try explaining the technical terms.

Wouldn't they then have the incentive to learn?

I was thinking I would create a username for my class, like DAG's science class or something of the sort. That would be the easiest thing to keep up with from my end. I'll have the boys (I have all boys) come up with an alias so you all can get a feel for their personality.

I agree with you Chris.

This will help us for some other reasons:

To explain the HS student, we need to be more simplistic and more expainatory. Once we know that the thread is from the student, we can post our views accordingly.

Chris Leonard will be having bad flashbacks when he reads that - he mentioned a problem some time back when a bunch of students all logged in at the same time ; their intent was clearly not good, and it crashed the site. The common source of all the new users flooding the site was obvious from the names.

If each of DAG's students opens their own member account, where will it lead ? Other Schools hearing of this and doing similar......I don't know the number of junior high-schoolers in the USA, but the possibilities of this are a touch scary. Students then migrating to posting individually and unmonitored, etc etc. The site could collapse faster than the world banking system.

I have no problem with kids posting in general, but although DAG seems to have a good plan the consequences could be considerable. News spreads really fast amongst youngsters, and the message will mutate ; "CR4, the best homework site in town ". That's why I expressed reservations at the start. If this goes pear-shaped, CR4 would have to revise the policy on Guest postings (ie stop them), and demand some proof of age/qualification from members. That would be a tragedy.

On the basis that Chris Leonard has considered it (he's best placed to understand the possible consequences), I say yes to DAG's proposal. Encouraging individual student membership, I say no to. Perhaps the compromise solution is a new badge, "Teacher". CR4 could post up guidelines for teachers, to follow DAG's whiteboard method etc. The badge would also enable members to immediately judge how, and at what level to post replies. It would also be known that the question posted was to aid study and not cheat with individual homework assignments.

That's precisely why I wanted input from all of you. I value CR4 way too much to comprimise it or offend/annoy my e-colleagues. I too would be annoyed if students went crazy posting on the site...

From Kris:

"If each of DAG's students opens their own member account, where will it lead ? Other Schools hearing of this and doing similar......I don't know the number of junior high-schoolers in the USA, but the possibilities of this are a touch scary. Students then migrating to posting individually and unmonitored, etc etc. The site could collapse faster than the world banking system."

That is a scary thought, but ultimately unavoidable. Even with teacher monitored groups or single logins for the entire class. Nothing will stop these students IF they choose to abuse the system.

Anyone can create a login on this site, so unless you close the doors to the entire site the students will be able to bypass any administration setup for them. Students will find a way to cheat or get someone else to do their home work.

I can only see two solutions for this. Unfortunately it requires all the work to be done by the members of this site.

Option 1:

The teachers post a list of questions (without answers) that are in their class. This way the members know not to answer such questions directly and only offer insight into the problem.

Option 2:

When confronted with a question that could be considered homework the member explains the benefits of learning for yourself rather then depending on others. Building a good foundation of understanding and using the skills they make now for later…

Either way you cannot police every question and prevent cheating completely.

Option 3:

We only field questions from the students about subjects above their current level. This would help them take interest in the next steps and give them a little insight into the big topics that interest them.

I'd suggest a variation on your option 1: the teacher/group leader posts a question which has been posed to the class ('question of the week'?), perhaps in the form of "how would you go about [making a machine to shell peanuts | setting up a video surveillence system to study life in a hot spring | using a plastic cup as part of a loudspeaker]".

Only questions from the group citing the problem posed and relating to possible solutions to it to would be given full consideration.

_{(BWT -}

_{"I can only see two solutions for this ...}

_{Option 1: ...}

_{Option 2: ...}

_{Option 3: ..."}

_{Sorry, but I couldn't resist it!)}

DAG, I like the idea of expanding young minds. Speaking from the side of things where the non degreed engineers I hope that I may be able to be of service in some way as well.

Whether they will become degreed engineers when all is said and done or whether they decide to take other paths, the experience that we all can provide them will, I think, be a benifit to them.

Bring on the questions, I may not be ready and able but I am willing.

I may be the first one to have a little different idea against all of you.

I dont completely agree with you all. this might be a huge discussion about education, even in our 'China has a hot discussion at every time step.

cut in short. few high school students strange to internet, most of them are very high hands on it. they are skill to use the tool.

what they lack is read books. good book can constrain their wild, unpractice thinking to practice. to study useful knowledges. because of internet, some of student will indulge into games to wast learn lessions. even an adult will do this way.

there are lots of excellent books for students and adults who can learn more theory in their grown steps. they can practice their theory enterring labs.

I aways think students should have a stability and mass theory foundation, so that they can deal with many of practice in the social.

teacher should help them find a useful book to fit their development. Review the threads on this CR4, we can find nearly 90% is caused by lack of basic theory.

the society is asperity (as hard as nails). learn more theory will make students benefits in all of their life. they haved enough time to practice when they go into society. by the time there will be few peple to willing teach them theory. and they will regred.

go to liberary and lab, if students have these conditions.

From cnpower:

"what they lack is read books. good book can constrain their wild, unpractice thinking to practice. to study useful knowledges. because of internet, some of student will indulge into games to wast learn lessions. even an adult will do this way."

And

"go to liberary and lab"

I agree nothing can replace a good book. Books bring focus and patience. If your in my situation the nearest decent library (one that has science books outside of the juvenile section) is close to a six hour drive. I would bet the local schools don't have much of a lab either.

I have taught in schools with very good labs and libraries. Unfortunately, this is not one of them. I have subscribed to a number of scientific magazines for my class and pick up books everywhere I can, but I haven't managed to get many lab supplies...yet.

I agree with books and labs, but communicating with an older, wiser, more educated group of people is very beneficial as well. Most of my practical science knowledge comes from working with my dad (an electrical engineer) on projects and asking a million questions. When I was reading books that related to what we were doing, all of the pieces started falling together.

Also, interacting with those who practice science and problem solving for a living, will show these boys that there is more to science than just theories and isolated facts...

I dont object to pratice. oppositely, I agree to participate in the practice, to factory, to country, to society etc. take advantage of their share time.

your words is side, dont let strudent to read book crudely. take advance of their interest, have a good teaching method.

thats why we need teacher.

theroy is result in many centuries by many industrious and intellegent people. its crytical of their wise, their hard work. it can make people walk on the straight way, not conner etc. you will get benefit in all of your life.

learn to solve a proctice problem is only one problem, but theory can solve many such problem.

I like to afgue with you all.

I shall come, next week...

a Chinese joke, Once up a time, there was a scholar in a town, who had a little baby. the baby cry all day long and even the famous doctor could do nothing about it. One day he cried again heavily, his wife was very bothering. suddently she thought a good idea, she was so delight and ask his husband to fetch a book as quickly as possible. "what will you do?" his husband asked, "give baby, let him read it!", " why? " his husband laughed at his wife, " he is only a little baby" "Dont you see it cry loudly? if he would read book, he will soon fall asleep" stare at his wife at supprised very much do the scholar, " dont look at me in such sight. it must be useful, because when I see you taking up book, you will soon fall asleep!"

I like it! Same thing happens to me...

6 hours ride? in developped country like canada, I cannt believe it !

Even in china vellige, there is at least one liberay in even a primary school in China. Our tradition is respect education, respect teachers.

I wonder why so many chinese students wish to go to abroad for education?

what do your school do? only for fun? see film , rv? play games?

He lives in the great northern forest... He is 6 hours from civilization.

From me:

"I agree nothing can replace a good book. Books bring focus and patience. If your in my situation the nearest decent library (one that has science books outside of the juvenile section) is close to a six hour drive. I would bet the local schools don't have much of a lab either."

Just to be clear I mean University quality library. I usually drive from where I live to Toronto library or uToronto or uWaterloo. This doesn't mean some libraries are closer with decent science books, but not the selection that I need.

Why not DAG Creates a blog.

All his students post in that with DAG as user name (and in the end sign) or create a user-name DAG-Stud - we don't need so many usere then and we will know who is DAG and who are mini DAGs

And in the blog, all his different threads may be compiled in one place. We can just go to this area and talk

So name the blog DAGs

Try with our Admin CL for it (need not if CL is listening )

Hi All,

Yes I am still listening in. I'm staying out of the fray, so to speak, because you're more likely explore all aspects of the idea without me championing a specific direction or conceptual follow-through. I am very supportive of the idea and think we can provide a lot of value through it.

Dag,

My what a tangled web we weave. This thread that just broaches the topic of helping students is into only its second day. This is comment #83. Be prepared for a possible tsunami.

Great ideas GA

Maybe CR4 Admin could give people like DAG an additional user account with a reserved title, eg "Teacher". As far as I've understood it, DAG's intent is to act as the interface for his students with the use of a whiteboard. When posting input, he can give mention to individual students if he sees fit, though I like the idea of them working as a group and discussing their best response/question before posting as a whole. The students would benefit from arguing the best post to submit.

A new member title, bestowed upon those applying to admin (as people do for a blog), would help control discussion. Having every student posting an individual comment would be chaotic. If DAG's idea goes ahead successfully, it will have established a good framework for extending CR4's accessibility to aspiring youngsters elsewhere. Posting via their teacher will also allow the students to get involved in a sensible manner. They won't get mistaken for homework cheats, and suffer the usual responses.

In short, give DAG an additional account with the membership type "Teacher". He can continue to participate as himself, and his students get to partake via his second voice. The students are in effect authorized participants via DAG.

We can continue to enjoy slaughtering the rogue students