Windpower

In the off road world, were some of us do a lot of winching, I have found GelCells do not last much more that one year at best. I have however found a very good option, Odyssey batteries can't be beat. Check out www.odysseybattery.com , I have not been able to kill one in three years now, and mine get a lot of hard use.

doit,

One of the past posts, this guy uses older forklift batteries for his system,

Here is a copy of the post by (toomuchfun), scroll to #36 for his reasoning, also this thread has quite a lot of info you may be interested in.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/33707?frmtrk=cr4sd#comment358455

In the electric boats we built, I used AGM type batteries. They were good for 15 years as long as you only discharged them around 20%. These would be no good for energy storage though as they are expensive and you would need many to obtain a decent Ah. Our boats typically had 510Ah which was fine for this application.

Good Luck,

Jim

Could you use the wind turbine to pump water into a tank, and then use the water to run the generator? The water could be recycled, and the life of a water storage tank is much greater than that of batteries.

Sounds like the NYSEG pump storage power project in Blenheim, NY.. Water is pumped up to a resevoir during off peak hours, then gravity feed to turbines during the day. Get a REALLY BIG tank, or use the grid for your battery. If you use the power grid you will need to negotiate with your service provider for the best dollar return. Some areas actually allow your electric meter to run backwards at the same rate you are charged for electricity. This is rare but doable.

The only real advantage to Gel batteries is they don't leak when you're bashing hard to windward for an extended amount of time. Otherwise they are no better than a regular Marine battery. Ideling battery banks will drain back electricity unless isolated manually or preferably with diodes. Some say plywood or a dielectric mat under them helps prevent drain-back as well. I use a 540ah marine battery that has lasted more than 12 years, and still going strong.

But I like your pump storage idea.

There is also a stored energy ( pumped water ) plant in Clinton NJ USA

Refreshing fact of truth.

It would be easier and cheaper to build a perpetual generator!

C'mon, you thought about it when you were younger. Until you went to school and were told it can't be done. Admit it.

Has that changed your passion in pursuit? I hope not.

Remember Tesla? He holds the key to the Holy Grail.

I know, some of you will think I'm out there now, and I may be. But I have reason to be. It is doable.. There are folks in the west watching it work. They don't understand it, it just works.

Jimh77 -- Your comments about Testla and his turbine got me to go take a closer look at the application of this idea as a pump. A Google search got me to a good Wikipedia article with a link to the one company, Discflo, that produces such pumps. There is also an independent web page that provides a credible short summary about them. The links including several others of interest are as follows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_turbine

http://www.discflo.com/about.htm

http://www.tfcbooks.com/teslafaq/q&a_043.htm

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/teslapum.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ordrp4KXEKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PdzaYwgQBE

I have some working years of experience with pumps so am inclined to look at this with an eye that is both critical and a bit biased toward proven technology. I will admit I never paid any attention to the application of Tesla's invention to pumping; so what I read was enlightening.

My immediate impression, admittedly driven by my own bias but no less influenced by our current discussion was that a Tesla pump may be lacking in the efficiency area. Worthy of note is that Discflo makes no mention of efficiency in their products. They seem to have settled into serving a niche market of difficult pumping applications where efficiency is far less important than the simply ability of their pumps to handle peculiar liquid applications like viscous and non-newtonian liquids, flows that contain clogging solids as well as very difficult suction situations where cavitation causes problems.

The other point I'd make here is that for over the last century the pump industry companies like Worthington, Ingersol Rand, Goulds, DeLaval and host of others have not picked up on the Tesla design for pumps. These outfits employed a lot of very good engineers, especially in the management ranks and I can tell you from my own experience that every new idea for pumps, and there were thousands of them, were subjected to intense scrutiny and debate. Steam turbines were part of the business since many pumps sold into power plant or refinery service were shipped with other manufacturer's turbines as drivers on the same baseplate. Especially DeLaval, a very clever bunch, who made their own steam turbines, would have been very aware of Tesla's ideas and certainly would have built product lines of boiler feed and condensate pumps around them if the efficiency had been there. In power plants even a tenth of a percent increase in efficiency is a big deal.

I thought the two youtube videos by the clever fellow who made his own tesla pump were pretty neat and do illustrate how someone with a decent metal lathe could build his own pump. But why go to all the trouble of building your own pump from scratch when old pumps likely with better efficiency are readily available? Even if the impeller requires replacement and the pump company no longer sells parts it would be easier to machine an impeller from some other pump to fit than construct a large diameter disk pack that would get you to 80-100 feet of head.

Should you be inclined to go in the "build your own pump" direction there is much information available on pump technology in books and on the internet. Most large cities like Denver, especially in agricultural areas of the country, will have at least one or two old companies in the business of selling and servicing pumps. In that world the availability of spare parts for repairing old pumps is an important part of the business. Of course these folks will want to sell you a new pump; but if you approach them the right way you may get access to their scrap pile and make a deal for hardware needing some TLC at a bargain price. Note that these fellows will be tuned into the value of the brass in old worn pump impellers so be ready to deal with that. There is a lot you can do with an old brass pump impeller if your tool kit includes a metal lathe, the ability to silver solder and rebalance the impeller afterward. But again note the price of new brass bar stock and plate, especially in larger sizes, can be daunting.

Nowadays most small centrifugal pumps in the 5 horsepower and under range such as would be suitable for single phase power make use of injection molded plastic impellers and casings as well as diffuser plates in the multistage deep well types. These parts are difficult to repair if damaged and relatively less expensive to replace. Also note that most multistage deep well pumps, the kind with submersible motors, usually get removed from service due either to motor failure or failure of the thrust bearing. The remaining parts like impellers, diffuser stage plates and casings are discarded when the pump goes to recycling. Given the cost of pulling and replacing a deep well pump most people will favor replacement with new over attempts to repair the old. But if your application does not involve a deep well but rather the need to pump water from one source at near ground level to a storage tank or reservoir hundreds of feet higher then a multistage deepwell pump is likely the most efficient approach. DIY approaches can make some sense for those who are cash strapped so to speak.

Ed Weldon

Honored Mr. Weldon,

Jimh77 mentioned just Tesla's name, while it was me who wrote about his turbines that can be also pumps.....

IMHO, You should be little more persevering in Your study, just like in reading of posts. Tesla's turbines and pumps has had 95% efficiency in his time, and nowadays it surely can be better because of better materials and more precise manufacturing.

As far that I know, only problem with Tesla's turbines and pumps was occasional buckling of plates, and this surely can be prevented over 100 years after he made them. Maybe this was insurmountable problem for industry at his time, and surely there is large inertia that set in once industry long time produce same kind of product. I would say that Tesla turbines and pumps because they can serve both functions are better than classic pumps, and that exactly of way they work they last longer and would need to be repaired less....

But, today's industry cannot afford products that work without breaking or maintenance, as if they would produce such things, who would buy more of their products?

Please just compare both systems and identify differences in regard to wear of parts, which is thing that should be obvious to You as expert in this field........

Of course, Tesla's pumps survived in specialized areas of use, on one hand because classic pumps would fast break under same conditions, and conditions are hard enough to be able to break even Tesla's pumps from time to time, so there is still market for them as new has to be produced to replace broken ones.........

Perhaps You dont know also that Tesla has built internal combustion engine on similar principle, and with same efficiency of 95%, so kindly compare this with efficiency of Otto Cycle where best efficiency even today is not greater than 46%.......

In time when Tesla has made his inventions nobody cared about efficiency, and I would say also that inefficient systems were deliberately chosen over efficient ones just to sell more gasoline, which were cheap and abundant, just to bring more profit to oil field owners.......

Times change however, and these days we are forced to seek efficiency in the machines to pollute environment less, and we should not forget people like Tesla who were producing such things nearly hundred years ago.

There is one more thing to consider here in this discussion, and that is direct use of wind turbine for powering the pump, and there efficiency is important factor, as well as uninterrupted work and minimum of maintenance, and so it is in generating electricity as well. Next factor is simplicity of production which influence production cost, and if something is simple to produce, than sooner can it be done by amateur and in own workshop. If there is much less parts that would wear itself in time, then surely there could be only less maintenance required, and maintenance is simpler, I am sure. What one can produce, one can maintain also, that is benefit of building own pump, but in this case knowing how to build pump is same as knowing how to build turbine for electricity generator, and while it may not be complicated to repair or replace old pump, specially if You are lucky enough to find same model in scrap yard twice, it is near impossible to find some used Pelton turbine, specially one that would fit needs, and I am sure if it is broken, one cannot repair it at home........

I hope You agree...

Compare this to simple task of fixing 25 or more discs on one axle, which is same for pump and turbine... Really, since there are factories that produce Tesla's turbines, and those would be very cheap in big serial production, there is more reasons to chose them than anything else, at least in my humble opinion with which You need not agree....

All the best,

Marijan Pollak,

Informations Technology Systems Analyst and Engineer 1st. Class (retired)

Yes, you did mention the Tesla turbine as both a pump and a water turbine. I do not agree that it is practical for such applications as energy capture, storage and conversion in the scales we are talking about in this thread and using water as a working fluid. My reason is that it is inefficient compared with other pump technologies that are readily available.

Yes, I agree that these devices are easy to build by someone with limited fabrication capabilities and that favors the experimenter of limited means, especially in remote and third world locations. Unlike centrifugal pumps of the current state of the art the tesla does not require casting or plastic molding resources.

But for most, centrifugal pumps and a variety of small water turbines are readily available. I submit that such machines from commercial volume manufacturers are more efficient (water power output divided by mechanical power input) than your favored tesla devices. But I admit that I may be prejudiced. I have not yet been able to find any test data, manufacturer's rating curves, books or scientific papers in my early searches that offer real world performance data on thin liquids for tesla pumps. So it is difficult to have any substantial discussion on the subject with someone who disagrees with me.

Given your enthusiasm over that technology perhaps you can cite some good references that discuss the water efficiency of tesla pumps or water turbines and provide credible performance curves (Head, efficiency and power as a function of flow capacity and/or rotational speed.)

By the way, performance of tesla turbines on gases is not at issue here and I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in the subject or really interested in it to debate the merits of tesla devices for steam turbine or gas compressor applications.

So in a few words, let's see the data on tesla pumps.

Ed Weldon

Honored sir, try http://www.teslaengine.org/main.html and books

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=xVBRAAAAMAAJ&q=Tesla+pumps+testing&dq=Tesla+pumps+testing&pgis=1

or just Google >>Tesla pumps testing<<........ I saw claims that say that his turbines are sold in milions of HP, and found that it is used in artificiall heart among other things.

I am sure that as expert in this field You would find fascinating data about this particular Tesla's invention.

Perhaps fact that we were born in same small country slants my wiew of Tesla's inventions, as I was great admirer of his works since I learned to read, and this was in extraordinary young age :-))

All the best from Zagreb, the capitol of Croatia, Europe!

Marijan Pollak, IT SA/SE 1st. Class, Instructor and Team Leader (retired)

Well put.

GA

I am not familiar enough with all of the work of Mr. Tesla. But there are hundreds of pump manufacturers. If any one of them were to discover a pump design that was superior to other designs being sold, They would have more business than they could handle. They would not need to worry about repeat customers. They could never hope to supply all of the people that wanted to buy their pump. Any pump manufacturer that is in business to make money would have researched the Tesla pump. Do you also find it strange that no one is producing anything close to Tesla's design?

I am going to side with you. Until I can see some conclusive results, I am sceptical.

bob c --

Tesla pumps work. They just give away some efficiency because they are more sensitive to fluid viscosity than conventional centrifugal pumps. On applications such as the ones that Discflo (http://www.discflo.com/about.htm) covers with their tesla pumps they offer advantages. Blood, some liquid suspensions that don't like being disturbed by turbulence, some abrasives and non-newtonian viscous liquids come to mind. The simple disk impellers lend themselves to easier manufacture if corrosive liquids demand really exotic materials. And the testla design is reported to handle some low suction pressure and cavitation situations very well.

Special liquid applications for pumps often accept compromises in performance such as efficiency when the alternate design is the only one that can work and/or survive difficult operating conditions. This appears to be the case with Discflo pumps.

Discflo has held an apparently good niche position in the pump market by virtue of some patent coverage and their own experience with making and selling tesla pumps. They are the only significant manufacturer of these pumps I know of.

It's worthy of note that Discflo makes no mention of efficiency in their up front advertising on the web. If their tesla pumps excelled in that area they would certainly feature that advantage. It's illustrative that they don't.

Ed Weldon

Hi Folks,

What the hell did I start here with Tesla? I wasn't even referring to his pumps.

I was referring to his electrical generating equipment, and other related designs.

Pumps were not even a consideration since this thread is about Windpower/electrical generation.

How did we get to pumps?

Jimh --

henrik14, one who is fairly enthusiastic about Tesla's work, brought it up in the context of suggesting a pumped water water method of storing excess wind energy. I started a bit of a debate about whether a pump version of Tesla's turbine would be efficient enough to be worth using in that application. That got us to this point. In retrospect I'd say we got a bit OT. At least we weren't screaming at each other. The pumped storage idea isn't half a bad idea if you've got a ranch back in the hills and way off the grid somewhere in the windy western USA outback.

Hmmmmm....... That's a pretty neat dream for some of us that are cube dwellers in the 9 to 8 rat race. I remember 20 years ago I was in this engineering job that had gotten pretty miserable. I had stuck this piece of calendar art on the wall next to my desk. It was a little snow covered ranch barn and corral somewhere in the Warner Mountains of northeastern California with an old flatbed truck parked next to it. At times between the meetings, phone calls and futile status reports I would drift into that picture and escape for a couple of minutes.

Ed Weldon

Wow, bet that kept you sane! I can envision that place right now. Was the truck Blue? Kinda a frosted over?

Been there. Not there any more though. I'm In limbo now. Business shut down. COLD.

It's amazing to see how this thread went though.

I did learn quite a bit about Tesla pumps I forgot all about over the years!

I was a cube dweller for 20 years, 3 computers, 2 phones. I don't miss them days, except for the money... Replace by (2) 21 year olds out of college).

Was it worth it? Been asking myself that for a while. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise??

Right, with unemployment being 9.1% last known..

Jim

Hi Jimh77,

We got to pumps via suggestion of storing surplus energy in form of water on high positioned reservoir from which later again electricity could be produced even without wind. I suggested to store energy of wind that way all the time, since then there is no need for rotation speed regulation in electricity production, while outlet from reservoir can be constant all the time, and we get electricity on demand........

This would at same time buffer irregularity which which wind blows, which was complaint also posted against use of Wind power........

I suggested Tesla turbines and pumps as same can be used for both pumping water and electricity generation. Now mostly issue is with efficiency of Tesla pumps, which some consider to be lower than with other pumps, while facts are quite opposite.

As I wrote already, Tesla generators had problems only with occasional buckling of plates due to high temperature applied. This should not be problem today. Also, some people wrongly concluded that just one disc is enough, and this measurements showed bad efficiency, but same person has corrected his findings 20 years later. Such test that totaly disregarded principle on which Tesla pumps actually work, just like others that at once experimented by changing design instead of applying Tesla's original drawings has also lead to lesser efficiency results. For instance according to Tesla distance between plates must be 0.4 mm, and others have put holes half way between plate edge and its center, while they have to be as close to spindle as possible and their size is also not randomly chosen, therefore too big or too small holes can impair efficiency of pump or turbine.

Tesla used force of adhesion between water and plates, as well as centripetal force as liquid went inward from edge of plate where the angle speed is greatest was pushed toward center where angle speed is smallest in spiral, and this long way that liquid traveled was cause of Tesla turbines greater efficiency. Longer was this spiral, greater torque was produced or more energy was transferred to water. Therefore putting holes close to edge of plate was big mistake, as spiral was shortened.... Also, as water transfered its kinetic energy to plates, it naturaly tended to slow down, so pasing on spiral closer to center of plate matched slover angle speeed there, but perhaps in a way that even part of remaining kinetic energy was also transfered to plates. Conversely, too small holes precluded fluid circulation on output, also impairing efficiency.

Such things are obvious to me from start, but not so to many engineers that tried to make Tesla's turbines or pumps, as they could not get rid of notion that turbine has to have blades to work. Only nowadays when programs for CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamic) are available, we can truly understand greatness of Tesla's inventions.

As i wrote in other posts, there were other reasons why Tesla's inventions were neglected, mainly because he tended to make devices that worked as efficiently as possible, in a world that wanted only to sell more gas, so inefficient design was probably chosen deliberately........

Time has changed, and we now first ask for efficiency :-)) so perhaps it is time to implement what great genius has created almost 100 years ago, IMHO........

To answer our dear Guest, I never make unsupported claims, as near future would show, and I am sure also that Tesla knew what he was talking about, as he allways was able to prove truth of his words.........

"I never make unsupported claims"

Hendrik, with all due respect, every word you've said about your design is unsupported. You go on ad nauseam about how wonderful it is, then you want a fortune just to have the privilege to look at it.

You will never raise a penny unless you show people up front what you want them to invest in. I'm not saying that's it's not good to keep your idea private until you bring it to market. This attitude just doesn't make much sense in an open forum such as this.

Hi Bricktop,

Sorry if You feel frustrated by my underscoring of benefits and lack of faults in my inventions.

Dont worry, as soon as I fill patents applications and it is verified that nobody has done it that way before, I shall post pictures and results as soon as production start.

I understand that it would be easier to understand what I am talking about with pictures shown, but that has to wait some time more........

Perhaps You would not think this way if You were researching prices of contemporary wind power stations per MWh of capacity installed, as my 1 MWh capacity units would be dirt cheap in comparison.....

All the best,

Marijan Pollak

"as soon as I fill patents applications and it is verified that nobody has done it that way before, I shall post pictures and results as soon as production start."

When will that be, I wonder?

Listen mate, the more you going on about inane things the less likely people will listen to you in future!

This supposed to be a forum about engineering and not about causing a fiasco.

I am right now in process of completing documents and I hope I shall submit them this week, if You want to know. How much our Institute for protection of Intellectual property need time to check patent databases, that I cannot say, but it is their job to do so. I have checked whichever way I can on my own, and I am quite sure something like this do not exist, or at least is not in production yet.

Tell me kindly now, why should I be worried whether people like You would or would not listen to me in future?

By the way You try besmirch name of great genius Tesla by claiming he stole his inventions from somebody else, I think I should actually ignore Your comments in the future, unless You try some similar desinformation again........

In any case, if my invention would be fiasco, that would harm only me, is that not so? Alternatively, if my invention would be success, that would help billions of people, and at this stage You can either believe or not to what I am writing, so suit yourself....

If I am making myself bad name or would be called a fool even, how does this concern You?

You act like Your intention is to obstruct any possible project, not to help it to be realized. I accept any constructive criticism, and if I am making mistake, I would like to be shown where such mistake is, as that would help me to go ahead. I was certain that my design would work even before I made toy prototype, and I just verified that there is nothing wrong with idea in first place, so when it works in prototype it should work in full size installation as everything is scaled proportionally, just I must use different materials for bigger size construction.

Because I know that basic principle for constructing installation is proven one, only finalized shape is different, that guarantee success in advance. To be sure, I can use one of existing turbines, but since my turbines are still more easy to build and need not much investment either, there is no reason why I cannot do it at once, and with full success.... Generator would not be of my invention, so it is already tested and working, so I have nothing to worry about as nothing can go wrong and result in fiasco :-))

If fiasco happen, it would really be first time in my life, and one time too much also....

I still wonder how You are so much worried about this fiasco possibility, when it does not affect You?..........

Regards,

Marijan Pollak, IT SA/SE 1st. Class, Instructor and Team Leader

I said fiasco because sometimes you were wondering away from the topic of the forum discussion and landing on issues like getting carried away with Tesla's name.

Obviously I did use Wikipedia for the shake of the argument rather than talking through my a...because some of the technological advances listed there chronologically makes it, even as we speak, impossible for Tesla to claim credit for; none more so than the AC power concept which he is the most famous for and made him even a millonare.

I did give him credit during his quest for wireless power transfer (that otherwise was a failure) that gave way to the radio concept which he failed to grasp to let himself make money out of instead of Marconi but then who....knows?

There's no point to treat the guy like a demi-god because no one is. One of the links I included does not seem to work well any more because there was a real detailed explanation about his life time works incl how the US government seized all his papers after he died.

However, having read all of that I could only conclude many of Tesla's ideas just weren't practical enough, not only in his days but even these days, especially his bladeless turbine and the list goes on. Tesla was more often a failure than a success in his ideas which is why he died penniless.

You can try to prove me wrong but not without a chronological evidence!

I am otherwise not worried about you're being or not a Fiasco but it is a waste of time to try to insist on ideas or things when there's no practical evidence to back them with, if that's what you meant.

There are a half dozen well written, well supported books about Tesla, and I own and have read 4 of them... He was that good! and what you read on the internet is biased crap, written by people who have vested interests in making him look bad, just like edison did; that criminal.

I wouldn't go on about Tesla, as you are making yourself look bad.

Chris

I am not trying to discredit Tesla but definitely should keep things more modest about him as he might have been a dare-devil thinker compared to a lot of his contemporaries.

I know, they even made a movie about him including how Edison tried to argue publicly against Tesla's ac power proposal as opposed to his already established dc power.

It is also a joke how during his life he was mistreated and now, more than 60years after his death, being over praised.

"I wouldn't go on about Tesla, as you are making yourself look bad."

I'm not worried about myself coz what I have said before I knew about some of it already however, seeing it on the net also gave me that extra reassurance.

Unfortunately some of Tesla's inventions like his much appraised blade less turbine never took off not only his time but even now due to obvious reasons.

His famous Tesla-coil is something that in his time was a magician's coil to draw spectacularly long sparks and later as an impedance matching device at large rf transmitters between the antenna nd the transmitter. It also reminds me of a distiller that he might have borrowed from his countymen in Croatia; where the local yokels used a thing like that to make their own brandies.

You should study Tesla more because Your conclusions cannot be farther from reality.

In regard to Wikipedia, I already have found some wrong data, like about some fellow from Hungary that supposedly invented something that actually was Tesla's invention (i think that was AC motors) but date of this >>discovery<< was two year after Tesla got patent for it. I wrote to them and gave references where they could check dates, but obviously they did not noticed my email........

If Mr. Tesla has used radio to send commands to his radio controled ships, then how has Marconi invented it? Tesla has proven that Marconi stole 2-3 of allready patented components for his radio, but someone did not wanted to change history as it was writen.

On hyperlink You posted that were supposed to prove how Tesla has not invented AC motors and generators I found clearly written that he has invented them in year 1888, but You still claim opposite.

I have strong feeling that You are green out of enwy for man that achieved so much, and You are jealous on anyone who show he would be sucessfull.......

It looks to me that it is You who did not suceed in Your plans, that perhaps You see Your life as one big fiasco.

It would not surprise me in least if this is so if Your conclusions were all the time so wrong as they are in this example, where You want to belittle great engineer that way centuries ahead of his time.

You tell YOU have given Tesla credit for wireless power transfer, just to say that it otherwise was failure.........

It was not finished because Mr. Morgan, >>King of Electricity<< did not want system by which anybody would be able to tap into energy reserve in his backyard, as surely he would not be able to controll how much electricity was used, so he would not be able to charge people for its use..... So, Morgan has withdrawn his funding, and since World War II has started, tesla copper coils were sequestered for production of ammunition, i.e. gun shells.

It is better that You dont write such things that show how ignorant You are and how poorly informed You are, and want to be looking as knowledgeable person.......

Do You think, if everybody can only reach same conclusions about Tesla that you formed, that society of engineers would honour this man and name unit of magnetic induction after Tesla?

Even on Internet You can find Tesla Autobiography and other books writen by honorable writers, so You better read it, or just list of all Tesla's patents........

But obviously You think that Patent Offices have given all those patents to Tesla by mistake, and he fooled them all or hypnotized them to be able to patent his inventions :-((

Moreover, whole World must be hypnotised, only You are immune and so You see the truth that nobody else can see?

I have decided that I would never again answer You, nor I would read Your posts, as it is complete waste of time!

Therefore, goodbye and farewell......:-((

Have it your way then.

In any case the world is more than about just one man and I am sure it was the same even in Tesla's time.

Remember "5% inspiration and 95% perspiration" said Edison.

I want to thank Bricktop for getting me into this discussion. I'm sure doitinastang isn't too happy that the discussion has turned to Tesla when he started this group about wind power, but what's being said here really is more than just an intellectual argument.

I couldn't agree more with you, Henrik. Tesla was a genius on the level of Da Vinci. The man was so far ahead of his time that we haven't even caught up to him yet, 66 years after his death, but don't be too hard on those who really know very little about him. While he's a national hero in your "neck of the woods", he honestly is not known here in the way we know Edison or Bell. I didn't learn about him until I was 40, which I think is pathetic.

I have never before heard the suggestion that his name be given to the unit of magnetic induction. What an incredible idea. Where do I sign?

When Bricktop brought me into this discussion, he mentioned my website which deals with the first practical system that allows ocean hydrothermal vents to be used for commercial energy production.

I'm not writing that to blow my own horn. I really do have a point to make.

My system is simple, intuitive, and do-able. It transforms hydrothermal vents from a curiosity to an energy source, and yet I deal with people every day that just don't see it. They simply can not see the big picture at all.

My point is that Tesla had that same kind of thing happening, not once but hundreds of times. When some concept or idea is revolutionary, most people just can't see it, and many of those who do see it feel threatened by it.

Consider Morgan, who was heavily invested in Edison's DC power, and who stood to lose a lot of money if AC became the standard. He did everything in his power, and played every dirty game to stop him, but mercifully lost to the weight of technological performance and scientific opinion that amassed behind Tesla.

Think of the implications to our world today had Morgan triumphed and DC had become standard. Morgan simply didn't care whether the infrastructure to be built was efficient or wasteful, or probably even if it worked at all as long as the dollars came in.

What you said about Tesla's coils being confiscated for their copper value shows how threatening he was. Does anyone here really believe that there wasn't enough copper available in the whole country to provide the pre-eminent scientist in the world a few kg for him to continue to explore valuable theoretical work? Can anyone imagine the Manhattan Project being starved of copper?

There must be some sort of continuing effort to keep his name out of textbooks. There is no other reason I can see for it not to be there, but Henrik, you really should try to realize that many of the commenters are truly unaware of the astonishing genius he possessed. You shouldn't take negative or skeptical reactions personally.

There are several things to learn from his story. The controlling powers do not care about anything but money. The only "greater good" they are concerned with is making their assets greater.

If an idea is too good it will, must be destroyed. Tesla was working on a way to transmit electricity through the ether with no meters or wires. Talk about a dangerous concept! Can you imagine what a disaster it would have been for the folks with the money if he had made it practical?

Realize too that even the Government itself is not working for us. If his copper was confiscated by Government officials, what does that tell you?

I also suggest that any of you who has not read at least one book on Tesla should commit to doing so. He really is that important and I'm certain you will be fascinated by what he did.

Ok, I jumped in a lot farther than I thought I would, but I wanted to cool tempers and at the same time add my name to everything Henrik said about Tesla. It may take a couple of hundred years as it did with Da Vinci before the extent of his genius is truly appreciated, but someday it will be.

Since I'm here I'm going to let readers know I started a new discussion at http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/35265/Tesla-and-Whitefire. I'm trying to find information on Tesla's experiments with "whitefire". If anyone knows anything about it I'd sure appreciate some assistance. If you don't, it could prove to be an interesting group.

Thanks for a very informative discussion.

Hi, Mr. Marshall,

Even here Tesla is not appreciated as he deserves, perhaps because area teems with inventors :-)), but still even if we contributed to World with inventions of reading glasses, mechanical pencil, cravat, modern theory of atoms, NMR analyse devices, torpedoes, and electronic lamp that saves lot of energy, Tesla is our greatest inventor of them all and should be appreciated more.

>>Tesla<< unit (10000 Gauss units) is allready in use, see Wikipedia and other WEB sources:

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The tesla (symbol T) is the SI derived unit of magnetic flux density B (which is also known as "magnetic field strength" and "magnetic induction"). ...

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I am not taking negative reactions personally, I am just kind of alergic to people who discuss any subject without really studying it, and who say first that come to their mind..... I could understand that their lifetime efforts can look insignificant when compared to what he has done all by himself, even if they have done worthvile things in life, and if they produced just one fiasco after another, then they may be insanely yealous of anybody who has achieved something significant, and they would do anything to belittle those that has done what for them look impossible.....

We say in Croatia that >>Everyone judges others according to himself<< and that >>What Peter say about Paul say more about Peter then about Paul<<, so someone purporting that Tesla has steal his inventions from someone else say to me that this person was doing this actually (but was unsucessfull in this also).......

I understand that everyone has right to believe what one want and have own opinion and conclusions, but one has to have some proofs before starting acusations, and not rely on just one source of historicall data that are disputed from the beginning (and yet Tesla proved that others has stealed his inventions, not other way around).........

Since man is dead, he cannot defend himself againest such slander, so someone has to speak up, as if we dont do it, uninformed people would think it is true, no?

I think this confiscation of copper was organized by Mr. Morgan, who first pulled back funding for this research, but it was also widespread practice as it is cheaper to confiscate copper than to produce it....... It was lot of copper (about 25 tons, if I remember it correctly), too.......

G'day Henrik,

Knowing what a dedicated patriot you are (so you should be) you might like to watch this video that should be a must for everyone. Once you have finished watching it, I wonder how many people you are willing to share with? This can affect a small country like yours along with many other former eastern European countries who were eager to break ties with communism only to realise that the future awaiting at them in the EU empire is not much better - only more amusing - before they realise they'll be serving the ultimate power sooner than they even know.

So, if you know what's good for you and your compatriots then spread this gospel as gallantly as you can! OK? ciao, bello

Well, I watched this video and in spite of unclear sound and my bad hearing, I believe I got most of it.

But, that is no news to me, actually, as we learned the history, and history show this pattern way back before constitution of US.

>>Divide et Impera<< is very old axiom of conquest, just now it is game played with world as its stage....

I remember (just) part of poem i read long ago:

They were players in a game

where stakes were thrones

whose money were the flesh and blood,

and the playground were fields of Earth,

and their dices human bones.....

Yes, many of facts mentioned was known long time, and even I noticed some that were not mentioned, like news that towers of World Trade Center was badly built so they channeled wind onto skyscrapers behind them, and those were shaking badly, so lawsuit was opened by owners of those skyscrapers so WTC should be torn down and rebuilt (at least this was on out TV news I was watching). Also, prior to attack on 9/11 there was some CNN news discussing threat from some therorist organization that they intend to break WTC towers, and then some CIA officer nicely explained how this is not possible to do even with airoplane loaded with explosives, and that their simulations show how it would take 2-3 big airoplanes in simultaneous explosion, and not just anywhere but in specific floor height (I dont remember correctly if 13th or 23rd floor was mentioned), so structure would break from impact and then sheer weight of building itself would pulverize lower part and would be broken in process.

So it was more cheap to find some fanatics and stage therorist attack than to break twin towers by explosive as this way insurance would cover damage and all posible colateral damage as well.....

My conclusion would be that if really therorists wanted to attack, they would want to kill as many people as possible in WTC, not attack it before worktime started....... Attacking World TRADE Center also show intention to upset trade all over the world, and what possible use is that to common therorists?

But then, maybe they were constrained by flight plans and that was only moment in which they can have three planes near same place and in same moment......

Yes, I agree that there are rich people who pull strings of World Ecconomy, and making crisis is way to grab values cheaply. But Wall Street is great instrument that make manipulation with values possible also, and history show it was done before, and considering who profited from this, it is not hard to see it was intentionall.

I am more concerned about use of infrasonics in this video, and that is known way to influence the people, as are body harmonic frequencies of sound that were used in church music for milenia.....

Other old axiom is >>Pana et Circus<< (if I wrote it corectly, that is, and it should mean >>Bread and Entertainment<<) that gives recepie how to rule people by making them satisfied......

Author of this video has missed one point, and that is that those who rule world are also human (if we dont start believing that theory of >>Snake race<< , ones who exterminated dinosaurs, that are true rulers that hipnotize us into seeing them as humans) and that their atempts to keep it all in hands of few families made them crosbred which bring significant number of imbeciles as offsprings, but then perhaps that was reason to start genetic research........

One scientist in my country has announced that he has solved riddle of death, as he has found practically immortal organisms, and his theory is that it is possible to >>repair<< human DNK (like they do it for some diseases that has turned to be genetic defects) so such people would be able to live forever...

That proces of getting old is of genetic origin was shown from cases of progeria, where children grow older 10 times faster than normal.........

Another point missed is that some people hoard money because they are insanely greedy, but then also point is missed that money itself is instrument of manipulation with possesions of other people, as if banknotes are just receipts for gold received, then their value should be constant and equall to certain amount of gold, and instead of this value of gold is determined by how much money one can get for it.........

So, did any of you think about it?

Only real posesion is land, because land feed us and we take metals from it, but in the end, who produce food has greatest value. In WW II in my country people were paying one egg by gold ring, and for good chop of meat they gave gold bracelet, of course those who has it to give.....

Once in childhood I found small coffer full of banknotes of big denominations in the basement where we have kept coal and wood. It was hidden in niche of foundations thinly walled by bricks that broke from thrown wood cutting, but those banknotes were valueless because new government introduced new banknotes. If one hiding it changed it into gold and diamonds, I would be rich man because there was so much money one could buy half of middle sized city in time they have value...

So, to sum it all, it may be that people who have the money have staged oil shortage to be able to earn more and whole financiall crisis is staged to devaluate company shares, which are also one form of money, to be able to grab companies, Banks, etc. and now have again found the way to earn more by promoting windpower and solar power generation after they acquired best land to instal them there. At same time too many bilionaries were created on overinflated value of their companies, and perhaps true rulers resent newcomers, so fastest way to get rid of them is to upset value system their wealth is based on: companies and company shares...

True rulers can do this because they posess land, and land can never loose value, can it?

I allways look first what is best for the People in generall, which is why some have called me names, and perhaps those are ones that dream of becomming very wealthy themself, as this is >>American Dream<< come true...

But going this way we would start discussions about meaning of life itself.......

I wonder why person that posted this link to video hides behind anonimity of >>Guest<<, is it out of fear, or this person just want to start another revolution :-))

Since there some titles in Hungarian language, and this particular country was under Soviet occupation for 50+ years (and it is known they are terribly dissapointed after joining EU because they pictured how capitalism is Paradise on Earth), it smack of former Communist propaganda where lot of small caliber truths were told to hide one big lie.......

Real truth is that former (and present) Communist countries have their rulers also, who relish ruling as much as those in West world, with same or greater indiference to needs of people and their welfare... Perhaps only difference is that they come to power by force, where those of West has come by cleverness, but both sides want to keep power in hand of their families, and wealth they posess shall in the end finish them all, because those born rich have tendency to enjoy life and just spend what forefathers have acquired.......

So unless they start cloning themself or make themself imortal, they are bound to dissapear sooner or later, and question is only if they would in their great boredom stage play where all humanity would be destroyed..........

Just put yourself in position of person that would posses whole World: what value it really is? They cannot really spend that much, as they cannot exist in two or more places at same time, so there is limited use of what they have... But to destroy the world for their entertainment, that is in their power, or they may decide there are too many people on this planet, so why not spread some incurable diseases or stage another WW with >>clean<< Neutron bombs that would kill just people and not damage their posesions.....:-((

You all know the facts, all it takes is to add them up.........

So we can speculate, or we could try to make this World better place, that is our options..... I vote for second.

IMHO, rich people are motivated by greed to become rich, and there would allways be such people...

Once they poses world, they would do all to keep it in their posesion, so that is perhps meaning of this Blble line that say how

>>Sooner would camel pass trough eye of the needle than rich man would go to Heaven<<

(at least that's what my priest was quoting, but we lived in Socialist regime and perhaps even priests were doing what communists told them, even if going to church were forbidden and they should oppose communists in first place.....)

Well, I am old enough to see much and learn a lot, and now perhaps I understand words of one of famous poets (Petar Petrovic Njegos) better, which say (losely translated) that >>only thing that is eternal in this world is change<<.......

So, let us work so this change would be for better instead of worse, hey!

Regards, Marijan Pollak

Dear Marijan,

Despite your difficulty with english, your intelligence and compassion shine through. GA

If you learned english better, you would be a very eloquent writer, with greater effect.

Chris

ps..."he has found practically immortal organisms"... if you have more information, I for one, would like to hear about it.

Dear Chris,

I am just under too much stress so I have difficulty to find right words, that is all.....

As I learned English 4 times from Alphabet on, I am sorry that it is not so sophisticated as it could have been if I had time to study it properly. I used it to read SF and programming literature, so I lack engineering jargon, and I suppose language evolved in half century, how much have passed since I learned it second time........

I am still waiting for You to continue our correspondence on wind power stations :-((

That immortal organisms are some kind of worms that do not have sex but multiply by splitting after reaching certain size. Going backward in time we can assume that all such worms living today can be traced back to one worm that started it all, which means that this worm still lives in present time worms, no? If worms would have memory, then all would remember all that first worm would learn, even if different branches of their >>family tree<< would have added new experiences particular to their predecesors.... Since division is on cell level, that means those cells never die and are actually alive even today, just as they were milions of years back :-))

At least this is what our scientist concluded when he claimed that such worms are truly imortal, if they are not killed by accident or eaten by some other animal, of course.

What? You want to be imortal? Stand in the line, first come rulers of the World! At least they would have money to pay for it :-))!

Regards,

Marijan Pollak

One of the great things about the computer is the wide spread availability of knowledge. The things that are discovered today are able to be held up to the scientific microscope for evaluation be everyone. In the past, scientific proof was not as readily available to the masses, and work by people like Tesla could be discredited by rumors and lies more easily. I hope the internet has made that harder to do.

Thanks JIM,

I'm new to this forum so I kept my mouth shut. I couldn't have said it better. I would be interested in knowing your recommended sites for gleaning appropriate info.

You should have kept your MachI. Check out what they are going for now.

I would have , but living in the North East NY, the winters are bad and salt had completely rusted out the frame that held the rear end in place. I noticed this after I pulled the engine to rebuild. After 260,000 miles, you could see right through the rings to the ground below. I inherited the car. After looking at the frame when I was dropping the drive shaft, I didn't like what I seen. When I got back under it. I then decided that the car needed a complete restore. At that time the car was worth nothing. Sold it for $300.00 to a woman who did rebuild it. 2 weeks after she got it on road, she took out a telephone pole and totaled it.. It was fast, only problem with it, you had to drop the PS belt to handle above 125MPH. So if you were racing you had to be ready to drop it. Out ran 2 state troopers on 2 separate occasions.

Being young was fun!!

I know, I went without a drivers license on a first offence traffic ticket. He had seen me on the road there before and really just wanted to "look it over". He was relatively young and really loved what he saw. There weren't many FB Mustangs on the road in 1966 especially with a full factory mod package. Unfortunately he picked the day I passed the break in mileage. 147MPH clocked. He wrote me a ticket for 137 because that was the record in Savannah Illinois area, and the judge didn't like guys who broke the records. They usually got jail time. I haven't ever checked, but I'll bet 137 is the record still. It's a fairly short straight into a sweeping 90 degree left as your hheading south. He was sitting facing me on a gravel road that I had planned to use for an escape road if anything went bad. A full four wheel drift, at speed, right in his face. Have a good trip, and drive safe.

Dear gentelmans, (both Mr. Andy and Mr. Weldon)

There is no are in search of Web nowadays, one just ko have to mention exact word about what is searched for. Only sequence of words is important, therefore in this case it should be: >>Tesla pump efficiency<< and I get as first choice this web address:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_turbine#Efficiency_and_calculations

I hope this is credible resource?

There You can find quote:

"With proper use of the analytical results, the rotor efficiency using laminar flow can be very high, even above 95%. However, in order to attain high rotor efficiency, the flowrate number must be made small which means high rotor efficiency is achieved at the expense of using a large number of disks and hence a physically larger rotor."^[11]

Unfortunately this same man made great mistake thinking just one disc is sufficient so he spoiled interes for using Tesla turbine in 50's.....

Next, at http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:Tesla_turbine

also same thing were mentioned about efficiency of Tesla Turbine.

Just keep in mind that if we want use it as pump and not as torque providing part of electricity generator (because torque is provided by wind turbine) then efficiency should be greater as fluid is moved by discs and not oposite.......

So, little more perserverance in search is reccomended, if You dont mind...

Firstly thanks for the links.

But if you read them carefully, I trust I did just that! You will find that all the efficiency notes are mostly "claims", it would appear that at least on the internet there are few hard facts. For example I quote from one of the links you posted (the other was similar):-

The turbine efficiency of the gas Tesla turbine is estimated to be above 60, reaching a maximum of 95 percent.

Tesla claimed that a steam version of his device would achieve around 95 percent efficiency.

No facts from independent testers.....thoough many have tested it would appear.....

I am only aware that one company does make such pumps for special reasons where conventional pumps would get blocked, but generally speaking manufacturers of these pumps/turbines appear to be few and far between, which leads me to say that they are not an answer for many applications and are not as efficient as claimed either, or far more companies would be making them.

They have been around long enough and I suspect that any patents have long since lapsed....modern materials, modern accuracy etc etc etc but stll few make them.....!

It would appear that the distance between the disks, needs to be set up differently for each fluid type, (cited in several on web articles over Tesla pumps/turbines) making manufacturing a nightmare, as the differences needed might only be a part of a mm or less.......normal/conventional designs are far more forgiving in this area for example. Tooling up for Tesla designs must be a nightmare......

So thanks for your time and trouble, but as the manufacturers are not convinced, then neither am I.....nor are "claims" for efficiency the same as hard facts......

But its an interesting concept and I am pleased to have learned a lot more and for that I thank you most kindly.....

Dear Andy,

>>Tooling up for Tesla designs must be a nightmare......<<

Quite opposite, as this is seriall work even on one turbine or pump since one has to install 25 indenticall plates......

With todays CNC lathes, a piece of cake!

But, this is just my opinion, mind you :-))

Please read other posts as I have given my opinion about reasons that led to limited implementation of Tesla's pumps and turbines.......

Sure Tesla was a man of great ideas.

But he was also experimenting with things which he never managed to perfect well enough for mass production, which is why he died penniless I must say.

This link does give away a lot about Tesla's invention efforts however a link like this and that help you to desolve all his credibilities about both AC & DC (if he had any) power inventions.

It appears that none of the AC power concepts were his, but rather took it with himself right from where he was studying and gaining his work experiences before he sailed off to America. (Don't forget either that in the US they have 60Hz instead of 50Hz, have you ever wondered why?)

All of Tesla's own later gimmix (inventions) were not as successful as his alleged AC power inventions of course, since they weren't even his concepts, if you draw the conclusion after reading all links.

Other than those controversies Tesla was a great inventor who financially later failed to succeed....may be he did not want to?

cheers,

I believe Tesla was ahead of himself and others, not understood well by his peers, or others for that matter. And he suffered for this. He took things that were said about him so personal, he later withdrew from society. We will never know to the extent of how much he could have contributed to the world if he was more understood for his time.

"But he was also experimenting with things which he never managed to perfect well enough for mass production, which is why he died penniless I must say."

wrong, wrong, wrong. Tesla was not rich because he gave the rights to wealth back to Westinghouse..otherwise would have been a trillionaire by now.

"It appears that none of the AC power concepts were his" really wrong

"All of Tesla's own later gimmix (inventions) were not as successful as his alleged AC power inventions of course, since they weren't even his concepts"

oh, except RADIO, which he was the absolute originator of, and remote control, ELF too.. many more. terribly wrong here

seriously... it is sad to see this denial, in an age when we owe so much to such a man as tesla.

Chris

I see a lot of links to Wikipedia here. I don't use it, I have found the data to not be so correct in the past. Although it's been a long time since I've went to the site.

I am fairly new on CR4, but you make efficiency claims that I personally cannot substantiate at all....in fact it would appear that reality is vastly different to your thoughts......

I have noticed before that you tend to bring unsupported opinions of your own to CR4....this is an easy way to give yourself a bad name!!! So please be careful in the future, or you could get ignored completely - Give a dog a bad name......!

Perhaps you could give us a few REAL facts supported on web sites that are not obvious scams or cons? I am perfectly willing to be educated, but unwilling to be conned.

Tesla was a great man for his time, its just that your impressions are seemingly at odds with reality......especially with regard to efficiency claims......

there is always loss of power when one form of energy is converted into another form. to start with, we have wind power being converted to mechanical power - that generated by rotating rotor of the turbine. then, another conversion to electrical power and so on.

if there is a way to run a pump directly driven by the wind mill for pumping water to storage placed at a high level, some energy loss can be eliminated.

i hope some participant in the forum will have a solution for this.

shankar from bangalore, india

I always thought that diplomacy is art of skilfully telling lies :-))

Since my principle is to tell the truth, I am telling it.

I am sorry if You are so used to listening lies that You automatically assume that something that sound good cannot also be true and good.

I am really not one responsible for people like Mr. Maddock who portrayed himself as great expert for investment while all he has done is to spend money of his clients.

It is understandable that most of Americans are in shock because of billions lost, and perhaps you dont believe any more that there are honest people still living, people that want to help, like me.

Impressions and phobias aside, I am always ready to accept criticism, if it is founded in facts, not in opinions. All I ask is that someone give me chance to prove that such system work as described, and if I offered such financing system to the government of India, then it should surely cannot be any kind of SCAM, as they would not scam themselves by using it, would they?

Would You do me a favor, and be so kind to tell me WHY You have such impression of me, what exactly it was that made You think that way?

Did You think that way before Mr. Weldon proclaimed me as SCAMMER without giving any arguments why he think this is so? I have reasoned with him and explained this and that until he condescended to write only >>So it is not a scam.<< instead to apologize in full, if he realized that he was wrong, or try to prove his words if he was convinced that he was right.

As You say, it is public place, and how would Mr. Weldon feel that somebody point finger at him in public place and start yelling that he is tief or roberer or worse? Would he be satisfied that after he proved that he is nothing of kind that he was called, person pointing finger at him just murmur: >> So, you are not robberer after all....<<

I dont think so.....

Would YOU be satisfied if You find yourself in such position?

I was glad when I have found this place where engineers met and discuss, thinking that it is group of inteligent people who would impartially assess the facts and then give opinion, and which can admit they were wrong if they make mistake.

However, I know all people are different and comming from different backgrounds, and here on CR4 from different cultures as well.

I also am aware that some people are simply jealous if they did nothing great in their life, and would like to make other people look less great then they was, like recent attack on great Engineer Nikola Tesla. As much as I am concerned, they can be jealous till they turn green of enwy, I would not bat an eyelash, but I relly feel bad when somebody start spreading lies, and about man who is dead and cannot defend himself.

So I plead that we put aside our prejudices and calmly asses facts that was presented, and then form our opinions, but only if we are sure we do understand it all properly. It is quality of inteligent people (IMHO) that they would ask questions if they are not sure they have understood what was been told, and even ask for confirmation of their deductions to be sure they did not assume something while it is not so......

I therefore invite anyone to ask me questions, and if possible let me prove my words in practice. I could explain every step before I do something and ask that owner(s) of money agree with that, and moreover, I could arrange co signature for any payment that would be necesary, so therefore I cannot use money anyway else then for results that are expected.

How would You present system of financing that :

1. Pay 20% of interest on money deposited (just like Banks do, just much more)

2. Build instalations and factories that process agriculturall waste materials into usefull products like Biogas, electricity, Bioplastic, Composite glues and fertilizers, which could be sold profitably on market or replace something owner(s) of such instalation would othervise buy on market, and thus many would be saved, like gas or electricity, and such instalations open new workplaces as well.....

3. Give instalations or factories to new owners for free, or whoever is using such financing system can keep ownership of instalations and factories and therefore keep even profit which other people would get in first place. It was intended originally to be way of raising standard of living in poor countries by giving free technology, but if used internally by one investor that is able and willing to manage it all, then ownership would not change. Purpose would be achieved however, because employees should participate in profit earned, which would entice then on ardurous work and carefulness with resources and instalations so there would be no production breakdown or lessening of same. It would be one of obligations of any user of my financing system, so I guess even if instalations ownership would not change, people would have their standard of living raised.

4. System where there would be increased work for factories producing materials and components of instalations, machines for factories, and more work for companies that would install, maintain and repair those instalations and factories.

5.System that pays for itself back from profit earned, so technology providers are paid instead giving technology for free, and so it recycle money used so it is possible to build next instalation or factory with same money, again and again......

6. System that multiply initiall money, depending on profitability of products or size of savings made, from 7 to 350 times in 10 years, providing also considerable amount of money for Research and Development of new technologies.

7. System that fill government budget from taxes on goods and profit, and enable employed workers to buy products of other companies, which keep jobs of those workers and they are able to pay their mortgage credits, so Banks need not sequester their homes and so on. More money in government budget means more money for public services, less unemployment need less sociall support for homeless and unemployed and so on.........

So, HOW would You present such system so it would not look to be >>too good to be true<<?

Where is there any suspicious element that might indicate that I as originator of system want actually to put money in my pocket and run away?

I honestly believe that 1% value of instalations and factories, that would be paid by same instalations or factories within all costs of building it is really symbolical........

Am I wrong?

Or you dear coleagues think I should give it all for free and die of hunger?

If so, p l e a s e tell me so instead of calling me names I dont (IMHO) deserve at all...

Regards from Zagreb, the capitol of Croatia, Europe!

Let me take a chance at this..

I had a girlfriend who worked as a Director of Communications for goverment, and other agencies. She was trained in Journalism and Communications, which are two related disciplines. Both deal wiht public information. The government employs people such as her, so that they get the response that they want when they publish information. This is especially true when dealing with potentially inflammatory information, such as working on the Mad Cow disease crisis.

It is a Cause and Effect relationship between the crafting of the words, and the energy and meaning each word delivers to the recipient. Communications is more about perception than truth.. which is why they are sometimes called Spindoctors..however it is a serious profession, and they know what they are doing.

So essentially, if you are not getting the results you want from your words, you have to change the words! Doing the same thing, and expecting different results, is bound to fail.

It is about perception.. not truth. You can't control whether someone gets your truth, but by crafting your words differently, you will get a different response based on perception.

Chris

upsidedown-- Check out posts #5, #6, and #10 under this topic for some comments on pumped storage of energy. Best to ignore much of closely following postings which went into the detailed discussions of one specific type of pump and offered little extra in the way of information on the actual practice of pumped storage.

Ed Weldon

This is an inane suggestion.

GA from me.

Maybe not quite PC, but who cares, its true!

There is a lot of hot air said (pun intended) about air systems. Unless you can produce the compressed air for almost (less than!) nothing, its simply not efficient enough.

It has been used many times where other systems would be intrinsically dangerous.... which leads many to believe that it is also efficient......big error!

That's right!

Pneumatic power can sometimes be the only safe alternative to use but never efficient.

To suggest to pump water somewhere high so that it can be used to generate power solely for this purpose.....where is common sense here?

More intermediate conversions cause more losses and less efficiency.

Hi,

If we have system that produce torque, this can be used to turn generator directly and produce electricity. Problem is variable speed of turning produced by slower or faster wind, and that ask for mechanic or electronic system of control if we want to produce desired frequency for using electricity in Grid.

Using same torque to turn pump which fill high positioned reservoir with water, give us stable source of energy to produce electric current, and we can use water when power supply is needed, not only when wind is available. Such reservoirs already exist in plains to provide water pressure in water supply pipes, so such reservoir could serve double purpose. This is similar to use of wind power on ranches in US, at least so is depicted in old >>western<< movies :-)) I have explained other uses for such reservoir of pumped water in my posts before.......

Air compresing systems are surely inefficient, even with some hot water produced at same time, as this water cannot be used all the time, right? Compressors should be cooled all the time, however.......

So unless someone has better idea that would enable supply of stable electric current >>On demand<<, and which is also cost efective, I would say it is best idea so far. There are other possible solutions, but to produce electricity first to use it to produce heat from which again electricity would be produced would be also expensive, unless combined with Solar concentrator that could produce thermal energy directly, so same thermal storage could be used for both purposes, and then electricity can be produced taping energy stored there. There also we can dispense with frequency regulator for eletricity generated by wind, but still there would be loses in conversion.

In my country they used to pump water back into acumulation lake above hydro power station during the night when there is less demand for electricity, by using other hydro power stations that have much smaller height difference and where production of electricity must be continous as dictated by river flow........

From this I know it is viable solution for storing energy, and loses are neglectible, specially if pipes used are straight, without unnecesary bends.....

Question is if water is available in big enough quantity, else two reservoirs should be used, and if there is some creek with some speed and quantity of water is sufficient, then water ram could be used to fill reservoir also, which is another form of free energy use...... Moreover, if reservoir is situated by same creek , then used water after producing electricity can be returned to same creek in order to not upset environment too much..... Harvesting rainwater could also be used to fill high positioned reservoir, and this water would also produce electricity in such system, while used water can be for watering crops or for whatever other use there may be. Second reservoir could be artificiall lake where fishes can be farmed, or if there is two naturall lakes on different heights nearby they can be also used instead of reservoirs, and so on and so forth........

Well, first things first........

Which capacity wind power station You want to build?

How much money You intend to invest in this project?

Is it possible to connect to the Grid and sell surplus electricity?

If You decide to use system with water reservoir, do You have any underground water you can use, and get useful system for providing water to orchard, vineyard or agricultural land, together with electricity?

Using water reservoir is good idea, providing it is big enough and high enough, as Mr. Weldon calculated.

If You choose to do it with reservoir, then it would be better to use wind power only for pumping water, as then there is no need for any speed regulation as in case of generating electricity, since stronger (and therefore faster) wind would just pump water faster. Since in such system You cannot use pump for pumping and generating electricity at same time, You would have to have two pumps or one pump and turbine. You can have also same type of pump/turbine if You use Tesla's turbine which is efficient and can be used for both purposes.

IMHO, using wind power for pumping water only would minimize energy leaks and make electricity produced cheaper because there is no need for regulated speed for generator. Also, You dont depend on wind for Your electricity, but for this reservoir has to have capacity to produce electricity for a week or longer, depending on frequency of wind blowing. Inferring from Your intention of using wind, there must be enough of it and it should blow often enough, else it is pointless or at least not economic to consider using it........

Question is also availability of water, as You would be forced to harvest rain water and two reservoirs. That is not so bad as it sound, as higher reservoir can be refilled partially with harvested rainwater, and You get some free energy from it as well. But then if water is lacking, it could be also used for drinking if pumped trough reverse osmosis filters on its way up, or after turbine on generator.

If water is available for pumping from the ground or well, then if You grow grapes or fruits, system for watering >>drop by drop<< could be installed as well.......

In regard to rain harvesting and higher position reservoir, if You have higher ground like some hill nearby it would come handy, and if rain harvesting system is made of transparent nylon plastic sheets, then You can have one big greenhouse built there as well to grow vegetables even in colder weather.....

Last of all, I have invented more efficient windpower stations that are also cheaper to build, so if You are interested, we can negotiate proper contract for use of such windpower stations, and I can also suggest you how to combine things together if You can use water reservoir system........

Later, when I organize production of my Solar power stations, You can consider building one as well on Your property.......

My windpower stations are cheap to build, and I guess 1 MWh equivalent could be built for at most 50 thousands of US $, depending on prices of materials, if used just for pumping water. But in this speciall case they can be scalled down to be adequate for job, only I would recommend greater capacity to make more work while wind last :-)) Turbine for pumping water must be matched in size for more effective use of caprured wind energy.

Tesla turbines are also cheap to make and are very effective while they dont take much space either. Classic (or originall) Tesla 110 HP turbine weighted just 30 Kg, and I know one man from Kenia that claimed he and son has built 260 HP turbine weighting just 60 Kg....

As patents on Tesla turbines have expired long ago, anybody can produce them from originall drawings, and I am sure that with better materials available and more precise machinig that is contemporary available, their efficiency would be still better than 95% they had in Tesla's time............

Regards from Zagreb, the capitol of Croatia, Europe!

Marijan Pollak, IT SA/SE 1st. Class, Instructor ad Team Leader (retired)

Well I'm just up the road outside Cheyenne. Depending on your location you might want to think about a vertical turbine. mine makes air store to a 2400 propane tank and than air motor makes hot water and runs my alternators to charge my batteries. I use electric forklift batteries, these have been in place for 6 years now and are going strong. there about a 450 pound battery, you can pick these up at a place called Connally battery in Denver, over by Commerce city. Just drop me a line and ill try to give you a hand.

I have read about vertical wind turbines however, I am a little turned off by their efficiency. That may not be important on the High Plains, as we have plenty of wind, even at ground level. AC and DC questions are also significant points to ponder.

There is one thing to think about with VWT's, these will not over spin like the large 3 bladed units that require a braking system. This is a huge plus.

I am in process of building a small prototype for testing. If all goes well I will build a full scale unit later this summer.

GA! JIM77 !people don't realize that in really high wind areas horizontal turbines shut down to down save themselves. VWT'S produce more in these areas like the high plains.Jim let me know how it goes with your prototype!

I AM BUILDING ONE TOO, does it matter wich way it spins?

If you are going to derive electrical power, the generator/alternator may want to be turned in a particular direction. Look for brushes, are they angled? Is there an arrow showing required direction.

Years ago, I drove my car of the time with an early alternator, a few hundred yarsd to get a new Vee belt. The alternator was turned by the wind of driving and promptly broke......so be careful!!

the one im building uses the generator you make your self that every one sugested along with the lenz 2 turbine, it has the triangle magnets attached to the brake rotors i dont know enoufg to do the coil yet im still learning about that but i an building the turbine this weekend ill send pics when it iss done.

I would be very much interested in any pics, details, observations you may make.

Hi doit in a stang,

I am like you, I would like to consider any or all possiblities that are presented here. I await the plans and designs by any body for the "perfect machine" or "near perfect" will do.

I think that Photovoltaic applications are becoming "widespread", because we have to "pay dearly" for a cleaner envirenment. They are a marvel of applied engineering.

I am also curious as to how you will progress with your Windpower "free-energy" system. Please keep us informed with your ideas and decisions.

I recently visited one of our best examples of American Engineering ingenuity, Hoover Dam, near Las Vegas, Nevada, and I bought my "Hoover Dam tee-shirt". What a marvel of applied engineering!

Keep us posted,

DRS

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Nothing is worse than doing nothing

i am also building a vawt. looks like many have fallen in love and taken fancy to this.

i would be happy to be kept posted about initiatives for building vawt's

shankar from bangalore india

refurb_india@yahoo.com

I would be interested in knowing more about your system. Do you have any details that could be emailed to me?

To heat, its best NOT to go through the electric way, too many losses in efficiency.

In Sweden, they use vertical windmills to "thrash" water in an insulated container. You can bring water to boiling inn this manner. Tap off the hot water to run through your radiatos.....do a google search.....

Hi, Andy! You went astray....

OP has wondered what to do with surplus electricity, so he primarily want electricity, not heat!

You may be right, but I did not understand that from the UP.

But the original poster has not been very clear in his request, so who the hell knows what he wants?

I went along to one of these shows and was told still the deep-cycle LA (lead acid) batteries are the way to go.

Some of the cells I saw were 500A (2V) they still cost a fortune each and you need six to build your 12V battery bank, of course you can have smaller alternatives.

Hi doitinastang,

May I see what you come up with please?

Several things come to mind - as you seem to be inviting
ideas "outside the box" and I'd like to learn as well please.

For example: everyone (here) talks about raising water to
store the energy; however, is that the best means of storage?

How about raising a weight? e.g. a block of lead the size of a lift?
or, a huge "spring" coiled or compressed?
or, say a large compressed gas chamber (nitrogen) in which pressure
will reduce in the falling night temperature, and increased in the day?
or, etc. i.e. what would be the most efficient storage of the energy?
(please don't say diesel or petrol, - we are looking for alternatives.)

I think a little time considering this would be worthwhile before
building reservoirs or dams with 1,000's of gallons of water, yes?

The best solution would be most helpful, please.

jt.

Some days I try, other days I'm trying. Mind for Hire.

Sure. Send me your email address.

the air motor makes my electric while its running i have coils of copper around it to catch the heat it puts off. so I collect 3 forms of energy from one vertical turbine air,heat,and electric. very efficient even with no wind I still keep making electric for 2.4 hours, with heat as a byproduct. One electric fork lift battery will go 82 amps for 8 hours 5 of these battery's work quite well to run a household. one thing i have found is if I keep the batteries at a constant temp they work alot better.Would like a better explanation about this if someone knows why? All outside lights are dc 24 volt as well as the ones in the shop, the lights are the ones you use for heavy equipment 55 watt 24 volt 8gauge wire.

Hi CR4,

Thank you for this fertile discussion on a simple wind turbine. I have always been facinated on how energy can be converted from one form to another, Law of Conservation of Energy. I think Tesla and God are good friends. You can't have one without the other.

Did Tesla invent the perfect Wind Turbine? Would'nt that be neat?

We have two forms of thought: the ideal and the real. If only we could be more real, who cares about what is going on at Mars or the Moon? I want free and clean electricity, and I'll find a way to store it for practical purposes, using natural Laws of Physics.

Come on guys, both real and ideal, just remember to use the Kiss principle and keep it least-cost, so I can buy it.

DRS

I'm not advising you to go this route, but if I were in your position, with my prejudices, I'd go the compressed air route. I'd get an IC engine powered (preferably diesel) generator sized for my electrical needs and convert the engine to run on compressed air. The wind turbine, or several, power air compressors and you store the compressed air to use whenever you need electricity. The air storage tanks will last longer than batteries or other components of the system. You may be able to get clever, using, for instance, a well as an air tank. The compressors will give off a lot of heat. If water cooled, you can find a good use for the hot water. (a water cooled IC engine can be converted to compress air. This is largely "junk yard" engineering.) Overall efficiency may be only 15%, but you get a lot of free hot water and the wind is free. Or, if you want to do something novel, to improve efficiency, check out US patent 5,832,728. Back in 1930, German engineers built a compressor-air motor transmission for a locomotive which was more efficient than an electric generator-motor, as used in current diesel- electrics.http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/diesair/diesair.htm