New Member intro/simple math question

:) love your post.

@mod sorry it has come to my attention that help with schoolish things is a no no on the forums feel free to lock and delete. Sorry to post without reading rules :(

Schoolish stuff is fine ... just not homework all the time.
You are welcome here
There is a huge difference between wanting help understanding, with methods and tools, and just someone wanting an answer or their essay written.
Del

as did I

Hello edigan,

GA. to you sir, some good points made. I fully agree with all you say!

I often find myself using math of some kind, and perhaps only years later I realize I have been doing trig' or something else, I thought I could not do.

'Finding a way' by using whatever kind of math construction available, that is understood by the user, means there can be lots of ways to an answer?!

I too learned most of the maths I know after leaving school, and did so because there was a 'need' to get a solution. I was also interested in 'finding a way' and only afterwards realized I had used something I 'did not know', but, something from the books and TV programs I watched must have 'sunk in'. My sorrow is in recent years I have not recalled some maths I have needed. But, again, I have found way round the problem. Sorry to those 'animal lovers' but there is lots of ways to kill a cat! :=}.

bb

What a load of rubbish.

You obviously either haven't done any college level maths or are deluding yourself.

Hello ffej,

Can I just point out there is more 'reasonable' ways to put your 'thoughts' in a post, than direct insults.

Talk like this pulls the site down to 'street level language', something that cannot be accepted on a properly run site. The site of CR4 represents 'friends', (note the quotes), who help others who are stuck and looking for an answer. It is not a 'slanging match' type of site.

bb

How are you with graphs? It can help solve a lot of these types of question if you can convert the words & numbers into a drawing/plot or whatever. Pushed for time now - try to comment more later.

BTW - welcome to CR4

John

Thanks all! i plan on sticking around. i used to use digg for my tech/intellect fix but that has gone from tech/science to internet spam so fast. Thanks for the warm welcome!

btw know of any good TI program sites?

Welcome aboard.

Welcome once again (now it is already a bit late you are already 3 posts old).

As said, no home works here, we don;t solve it for you, but we can give you hints and guidance in general (then you go and solve it yourself).

BTW- My son is also like that, he is of course much junior to you, in class 6, but then I have a lot of problem in teaching it algebra, especially when he asks when I can solve it why write all those X and Ys?

This in a sense kills his creativity, but thn in higher maths, what will he do ?

So I don't go fo X and Y, I go for something more practical (like apples and oranges)

So if you sell an orange and get a apple and $3 ...

Just a bit off topic, but not much so,

I remember my college days of matrices and determinants.

Well a determinant has a value but the matrice does not have it. Now why to have all those numbers that could not be solved ?

Much later only we knew the improtance of matrices (and then I had to learn again) since at those times we had choices (solve any 10 out of 15 questions Question 1 is mandatory type you know ) and i had chosen to ignore all questions in the exam with matrices.

When I was in college, I went through integral and differential calculus for an entire semester and couldn't understand a single thing. I was getting F's on every test. It was the weekend before my final exam and a friend of mine said he could help me with calculus. I invited him to my home and by Sunday, I understood the calculus enough to get a B+ on my final. Many times, teachers don't have the skill to communicate effectively with the class.

Hello brokenmind,

A huge welcome to you and I hope you find the site helpful to you, and you are able to help others with various requests. That is, after all what the site is about. Those that may be interested or more knowledgeable in certain subjects helping those who are 'stuck'!

There is some very clever people here and they are all very friendly! :-)

I have found some good friends on here at CR4 and I am sure you will too. All you need is enthusiasm and you're halfway there. The other half is, try to confirm by searches, that an answer is correct, especially if you are giving technical info'.

Once people get to know you and you get to know other 'regulars', you may find they might 'shorten' your user name, ...........just in a friendly way. Mine was babybear and was shortened to bb. So yours may become 'bm'? It is just a way to speed up the replies and not have to type so much to answer a post or thread. Good luck and enjoy yourself..................

bb

Hello again brokenmind,

I forgot to answer your maths question. Though it would help if you could actually type what you find hard to figure in a post and then we can give advice, or at least the people whom actually understand can!

I have a memory problem myself and find it hard to concentrate, so I am gradually finding things harder as I get older. But in general, I find once I and hopefully you as well, have 'got' the question, fully understand it, then we can fit a formula to it and solve it. We do not have to solve it the same way the others do, as long as we can give an answer and argue that result to confirm the answer with others.

Do not worry about asking anything too childish. After all, it is just the way it is phrased which makes something seem child like? And I have not 'heard', figuratively speaking, anything you have said in this your first thread and posts in the thread which could be said to be childish really. I worry about this kind of thing as well because I have forgotten how to write 'higher' maths on CR4. But as long as you can get by and get yourself understood, on any particular question or post you may be answering, that is all you need to do, right? I am sure things you find hard at the moment will, over time, become second nature to you. Once you see a question or equation and realize you can answer it 'your' way, do so. As long as the answer is correct and it makes sense that is all anyone asking for help wants, that is something which is easy to understand

Take care, bb

Welcome, brokenmind!!!

Are you sure you're not just dyslexic, instead? My father is profoundly dyslexic, and because of that I've done considerable research on the subject. Interestingly, it turns out that dyslexics do not see letters backwards and all that stuff...

Turns out that dyslexics have damage to the part of their brains that converts abstract information to "real" information. Reading is abstract, but pictures are not. Thank God for the exploded drawing in the Chilton Manuals or my father would have never been able to make a living as a mechanic!!! Because of the problem with abstract information, most dyslexics also have trouble with some words, especially names.

OK, so why do they use a stimulant to treat dyslexia? Turns out that the part of your brain that processes abstract info is very sensitive. It seems as though if anyone takes intoxicants (name your own poison) the first part of your brain that gets affected is that part of the brain. So, the theory is to give a small dose of stimulant... just enough to stimulate that part of the brain. That's the theory, anyway.

Anyway, if not helpful, I hope you find this info interesting.

Welcome to our forum. I hope you have a long, pleasant, and rewarding stay here.

Hi Brokenmind,

the suggestion to use BM as a name was good, my suggestion is not to pick such a negative name for yourself in the first place......think positive, it has always helped me......

You give a good balanced impression to us......stay here with us, we always need more good folks on CR4!!!

Andy

You are right. He Brokenmind should be more positive. "Brokenmind" itself is a negative name. He should change it to something different.

Negative thinkng itself is a cause of not understanding few things by him/her.

If he assures himself that he can understand the things, (may be with the hel of others initially), he will understand the things, which he is not understanding now.

If abstract thought is the problem, can you turn the formula into a machine that moves according the rules of the formula? Maybe a ball on the end of a stick? Maybe the grid as a map of a city in blocks? However you can see to solve the problem that worls for you is what counts. It doesn't matter if it won't make sense to anyone else. Good luck.

I agree with tcmtech that you can find ways to look at the problem so that it makes sense to you, then solve it in your own way. Algebra is pretty straightforward as long as you follow a handy set of rules. The meaninglessness of the problems with too many unknowns creates a mental block, afaict. It's a distraction from more meaningful functions that your brain is busy with.

Here's my perspective: There's a different math that underlies the ability to comprehend the whole of something and the function of its parts. It's a complex math, and it takes a good bit of processor power. It is extremely efficient considering the complexity of the subject matter.

To try to describe that math, lets say you start with a set theory approach. What we have is a set containing an infinite number of finite sets, each of which is a coherent whole whose parts are known and whose relationships are knowable. The first set has 1 element. The second has 2. The third has three, and so on. Each set has unique and increasingly complex mathematical characteristics. I think of the larger sets as a closed loop (symbolically, at least) each of which has whole or partial iterations that are coherent in the context of the whole: when it gets to the last number it begins at one, like a wheel. Each iteration that goes past the point of origin is a jumping off point for a larger closed set that is related to the specific iteration in that first set. These pathways allow you to extrapolate meaningful approaches to the functional elements of new "sets" or different systems.

Your brain is doing that math for you. Your special ability allows you to go directly to the solution because it is doing the math about the coherence of the whole. That is what's really important.

If education was designed to advance those functions of the brain and flex that muscle, we'd all be winners and it would be a different world. No more stuck on dogma.

Good luck with your classes, and welcome to CR4.

There were a series of books called "Schaums Outline" that demonstrated various math problems, their solution and analysis. I learned more from them than the school texts of the day. I don't know if they are still available. Check on E-Bay.

Hello ronseto,

hope you are well?

I wish I had know about the "Schaums Outline" books when I was finding maths difficult!

bb

Back in the 70's we used Schaum's Outline as our Calculus textbook in high school. Some of the things we did in high school were more involved than anything I saw in college. I would not say that Schaum's made it easy, it was still a lot of very hard work. But, the Schaum's Outlines were better organized and much more to the point than most textbooks.

Many text books start with an endless pile of boring intro stuff that never makes sense. Others, especially math books, start page 1 paragraph 1 with a huge collection of partially defined (or undefined) Egyptian hieroglyphics. We are pretty good at teaching people to hate math before we start teaching people math. Schaum's did a pretty good job of laying a good foundation and building upon it as soon as the foundation was done.

I just checked Amazon and Schaum's seems to still be available. They changed the cover, hopefully that doesn't mean that they changed the inside too. I hate the way companies feel the need to fix things that aren't broken.

Try thinking of math as a foreign language. It's simply a language that scientists and engineers find useful for communicating ideas among themselves. If you want to communicate with those guys, you will find it very helpful to learn their language. You can make your mark in the world without it, but you will be handicapped. I suspect that if you begin with word problems and then substitute symbols for the unknowns, you will begin to get the hang of it. You might even enjoy it. If there is $2.75 in the cup and xavier put in $ 1.50 of it, the balance was put in by yvette, how much did yvette contribute? You probably know without using math that y=$2.75 - x. We already told you that x=$1.50, so y must be $2.75-$1.50, or $1.25. The equation that describes what yvette contributed is y = total - x. More complicated problems are similar translations of common sense into symbols. Go for it.

I'm sorry; I told you that y = $2.75. I should have said total = $2.75.

Hello and welcome and feel free to ask or answer questions as you want. There are allot of different schools of thought represented in here. I find that there is usually someone around that can answer most any question no matter what the subject is. As far as your math question; I would suggest as others have to figure out a way to look at the question in a more hands on fashion that you understand. Usually if I take on step at a time look at a problem this way it helps me. Things like pictures, graphs, item substitution with things you know and so on can really help. Well anyway, good luck in your studies and I hope you do well.

Actually edgian I have full agreement on what your saying and did. Your using applied mathematics. I love it and use it every chance I can.

I did have an interesting argument with a calculus instructor once that ended with a class full of laughter when simple logic proved a mathematical formula completely invalid for any real life application.

The calculus I was required to take was the dumbest thing I have ever seen that was even remotely related to mathematics.

My Calculus instructor spent a week on how calculus based formulas can change any number to be equal to any other number.
One day in the middle of class I asked him; Can you use this in real life situations?
He said; Definitely!
I then asked; Are you doing anything after class?
He said; No, Why?
I said; Then will you come with me and prove that what your are saying is true and can be used in real life?
He said confidently; Sure! Where would you like me to prove it? I said with a big grin; Lets go to my bank and you can prove that your equations are real and do work in real life situations by making the $40 in my checking account equal to $40 million. AND I will give you $38 million of it in cash if you do it!
The whole class cracked up!

He then said; Thats not how it works. These formulas are only good for when you have mathematical problem and the answer you keep getting does not match what you need to make the equation work.
I said; But how I want to live does not add up with what my checking account says. The number I need in my financial formula does not match what I have in my checking account. The class though my argument was good. It did meet all the requirements of what he was saying, and it did fit in the formula on the board perfectly!

But after much debate I still only had $40 in the checking account the next day.

Mathematical Monkey Poo

Math is everywhere, we all use it everyday it's a part of our lives even if we don't realize it or even think about it.
So is feces, it's a part of life! Everyone and everything makes it. Some is good for fertilizer and can be used raw to makes things grow and develop better.
So are some forms of mathematics. Practical, usable and great for making ideas grow and develop.
Then there are the other forms of feces that have limited use or no real use unless processed or modified to work in a particular way, same with mathematics too.
Monkeys are known for throwing feces at each other and at anyone or anything that upsets or gets them defensive!
Sometimes types of mathematical formulas get thrown around more defensively than constructively! Hence the term "Mathematical Monkey Poo"
Often thrown around with no regard to weather it's being used appropriately or constructively and most often it has been triggered by someone getting defensive or upset!
And just like the angry monkey the mathematician is trying to squeeze out the biggest pile he can make, even if the situation does not truly warrant it!
So are you spreading fertilizer to help make things grow better or are you just throwing Mathematical Monkey Poo?

Hi Brokenmind (actually, I'm fond of just using initials, but in this case I think I'll get into trouble ).

Let me add my hearty 'welcome to CR4' as well. It's a healthy mix of fruits, nuts, and flakes, but HEY, why not have a little fun while you solve all of life's problems .

For all my life, I have been a visual thinker, so mechanical issues always seemed to be much easier than things I couldn't "see", but I found a great 'friend' in MS Excel. Its extremely easy to use to 'explore' math issues ... it really allows you to 'play' to see "what happens if I do THIS" (and NOT end up in the Darwin Awards list ).

Have fun, and welcome to the playground.

Kind regards ...

Thank you all for such a warm welcome!

I think i have it now. not sure when the aha! moment happens but something just clicked and everything just looked like sets of directions instead of just numbers and letters. i can follow directions.

once again thanks for all your help and pointers. ill be around for a long time so BM, BS, "that one guy" all work for me, call me whatever you wish lol

Is there a maths refresher course available? In the UK, one can find "evening classes" or "adult education classes" [no puns, please] for those who want the refreshment in academic disciplines without the obstacle of needing to give up work to take it. Maybe an enquiry at the College reception/information desk, perhaps?

My wife who tutored disabled students in maths among other things, says the following. Totoring over the web would be dificult but a direct approach to the college to see if they have tutors for disabled students who specialize in maths would be a great start. Bill Moffat

Welcome to the insanity!

Most people have a lot of difficulty with word problems. The only tips I can give you are:

1. Break it down into individual parts - just like you would any machine. Often when you read these problems, they appear like an undefeatable monster. So chop the monster into pieces that you can beat.

2. Look for key words or phrases. The word "is" almost always means "=". Write those rules down in an unused portion of your brain.

3. Separate the wheat from the chaff. Sometimes unnecessary information is added to a word problem, just to see if they can confuse you.

4. Once you have the equation(s), solve the problem the way your brain wants to solve it. There are different ways to solve simultaneous equations, use the way that is comfortable for you.

BTW: Your mind is no more "broken" than anybody else on this site; and apparently since you are now in college, neither is your spirit. Good for you!

Hello again all! Thanks for all the positive replies :) I got a 94 on the last exam! Thinking of it in real terms helped so much. thank you all for your suggestions i plan on trying them all,to see which works best as i move to higher levels of mathematics. I know this is basic stuff to you all,(and probably made some angry that the question was even asked) thank for you warm welcome, your patience, and for taking your time to help me out.

Hello bm,

In reply to your post 44........................ There is no way your thread and posts and others on it, can be seen as 'childish'.

Any question that provokes others interest and other questions has to be welcome

Thanks you. I am being a little cheeky as I talk for others in my reply, and for that I say sorry, but, it was a thought provoking thread!

bb

Very well said, babybear !

Our new friend seemed nervous about how/if to post on CR4 due to the level/type of ability, and you've given an excellent answer to that. GA, Sir !

Due 100% to the fact that you supplied just about every fact right up front, we don't get upset quite so easily.....you posed a reasonable question and you told us why. Many thanks. Thats basically all we ask for.....

Once you get used to CR4, you will be blown away at some of the questions we receive with no infos whatsoever, thats when some of us get pissed off a little.....

You did good. Welcome.

Hello Andy,

WELL said my friend!

Take care bb

thanks again all, of to class for some one on one with the prof, he has to be able to look at my work and see where my brain fart starts happening

Hi there BM,

I've just found this thread (squirrel hunting has some good fringe benefits ) and thought I'd add my twopen'rth.

I agree with all the comments that say well done on writing a good clear question and that asking for help with techniques and understanding is fine (getting us to do your homework is not!). Big welcome.

I was thinking about how I learnt to do algebra and other maths techniques...and mostly I can't remember since I've loved maths since I was tiny.

My Mum says she used to sit me on her lap when she was preparing the vegetables and would say "Here's one potato, if I cut it into 2 I get 2 halves. Two halves make one whole" and so on. So perhaps I learnt it like that (I could do fractions and percentages at infant school).

I remember junior (7 - 11) school books taught the algebra principles (2x + 3y = 17) by setting the scene at a greengrocers and had you buying 2 oranges and 3 bananas for 17p and asking how much bananas cost if oranges were 4p each. By 11, we were doing linear programming and creating equations and drawing graphs - always done from real data: I remember one invloved have £20 to spend on fireworks and having to work out the possible combinations of rockets and sparklers that could be bought.

We did pie charts and bar graphs from car surveys we carried out.

I learnt number bases from a book that explained we count in 10s because we have 10 digits on our hands, but dogs (and cats) count in 4s because they have 4 legs, spiders in 8s because they have 8 legs and so on. I remember it made perfect sense to me straight away, presented in this fashion (and allowed me to p*ss off my senior school teacher by being able to do 3 digit Base 8 subtraction in my head on the day she taught the topic for the first time! Never did get on with her).

At senior school (11-16) it all got more formal, but was taught thoroughly so all the pupils could follow. My earlier grounding helped me with all that.

Always ask your teachers to tell what a technique is used for in the real world. We did that to my (poor) A level (16 - 18) Pure Maths teacher - when she introduced the fourth topic of the year, she told us what it was and then what it was for without us asking! So they do learn .

Ask your friends, ask on here. Feel free to PM (private message) me if you have a specific question - I like to be challenged to find other ways to explain something. (If I don't reply immediately it's because I'm busy at work and avoiding CR4!).

Finally enjoy it! Maths is fun!! If something is fun it's easier to deal with, so keep telling yourself that and you'll begin to believe it . As someone else said, it is a language and it takes time to become fluent in any language.

The other thing to remember is that when an equation is right, it has a beauty all its own, a balance and a symmetry. Once you've learnt to recognise that beauty, it's a great help in self checking.

Good luck

ER