Traffic Circle Vs Stop Sign

We just got our first set of round-abouts here in Mesa, AZ. USA. They are used at freeway intersections. Although I've never seen any collisions there the turn radii are rather radical. You have to be very careful or you'll drift into the outside lane.

The traffic engineers said this was the best way. I don't know.

Here in NJ we have been systematically removing all of our traffic circles. I read somewhere that we had them first ( just like clover leafs ) and now we are done with them. They are just accidents waiting to happen. If everyone would follow the rules properly when using the circle then we would have no problems but people being people well...

There's one and/or two reasons, and those only, for circle removals:

• To speed traffic (eliminate the need for slowing) due to increasing traffic volumes requirements.
• To better utilize (read exploit) the land...where circles require inordinately more land depending on capacity required...same for cloverleafs.

In some areas (think western US) circles are making a comeback, primarily:

• For better aesthetics.
• So regulate/slow traffic in residential areas were people are hoped (somewhat in vain) to revert to walking. (Here, intersections are being formed into quasi-circles by placement of curbed circular impediments (with signs and decorative structures) at the intersection center...so that instead of stopping and proceeding straight, one must slow or stop, and proceed around the impediment before continuing straight [in some direction)...all with the intent to restoring downtown and uptown areas to residential use. (This being a restoration of the Swiss street layout that was in vogue in early twentieth century.) The "intersection rotaries" (I'll call them) also facilitate U-turning which, in central business districts, is generally restricted by ordinance to intersections only. Finally, intersection rotaries in residential neighborhoods tend to discourage non-residential, "thru" use of the streets without altogether excluding it...a much better and more efficient land use that creating traffic traps (circles and cul-de-sacs) as has until now been the norm with urban sprawl approaches to traffic design. So circles can be an effective compromise between the concentration of traffic on few (straight) streets (which maximizes congestion), or the (return to) maximization of thru streets...for dispersing and thereby facilitating overall traffic movement.

Finally, Stop signs are actually the most pointless, most ambiguous of all traffic signs. In effect every stop sign is actually a yield sign with conditions (if a cop is watching).

The presumption with Stop sigh placements is that drivers are generally stupid and devoid of driving skills and rules-of-the-road knowledge. On another level stop signs serve the same function as red light cameras: as toll gates...thing citation revenue generation. The urge for revenue can be so strong (like... in the us west and Calif) that stop signs will be placed which are a traffic hazard and increase the likelihood of accidents! When I have made these points to California "traffic engineers" the are unable to consider a world (ever existed) in which drivers would or should know how to manage encounters between vehicles. But that's in California, where the concept of "rules of the road" is a newly adopted concept...one adopted only after coercion by the Federal gov't.

The problem with traffic engineering is that the most knowledgeable voices (those of people who use the streets) are generally disregarded. So in most cases, traffic solutions generated by engineers generally (but not admittedly) are hoped to resolve traffic problems also generated by engineers.

Accidents waiting to happen?

Here in the UK we have thousands of roundabouts, (including the Magic Roundabout in Swindon that has to be seen to be believed!) and i doubt we have thousands more accidents!

You just have to follow the rules and there are no problems at all! In a lot of ways they are better than traffic lights as there is a better flow of traffic and even with a lot of traffic it generally keeps moving rather than a stop start of a traffic light.

Agree (not British) traffic circles/roundabouts are the single most efficient way of controlling an intersection if used by civilised law abiding (including bicycles) drivers.

In the UK they can be huge, as mentioned, or as small as a painted slightly raised circle of only a few meters diameter. They work better than stop signs and much better than traffic lights in most instances. One rider is that the traffic flow must be pretty equal from all directions or they can be very difficult to enter.

Beware in Holland, because unless there is a yield sign at the entrance to the roundabout you must give way to the person on your right who is entering the roundabout. No rocket science needed to work out that if the person entering has the right of way the roundabout can only get "fuller" and eventually come to a halt

Please refer to comment 28. You will better understand my position.

I am for (big) circles. The gold town of Welkom (Welcome) in the gold fields of SA was developed in th 1950's with big circles and wide open spaces.

It is a city now. I was there again last year the traffic really move.

The problem I see is that a city designed more than 100 years ago would be to cramped up to change now.

Some studies show that traffic circles or rotaries help to maintain traffic flowing even in fairly dense traffic patterns. They do tend to reduce speeding since all traffic must cope with the change in direction. These studies also showed that the severity of accidents were less at rotaries than standard stop sign intersection. But I'm personally not sure if this is a design feature or just the novelty of a rotary that keeps drivers alert.

Personally... I dont like the circles one bit, and thats that.

really why? can you explain why you dont?

i find it moves traffic much faster than stop signs, no big lines waiting for the stop and go.

Yes.. Every other time I get on one, some jackass comes flying around while changing lanes and about slams into me. Plus, If I want to make a left turn, I dont want to make big swooping circle to the right, while megring with other cars, I just want to put on my left turn signal, and turn left. If there is more traffic than can be justified with a stop sign, then put in a traffic light.

what do you all think about the ticket for the bikes? i think it is B.S. $180 for not stopping on a bike. i don't stop, and i wouldn't stop for a cop to give me a ticket ether.

If you look at the implication of a bike running a red light vs a car running a red light, I agree with you. That seems excessive. Who are you going to hurt on a bike? Only yourself.

yes i agree but there should be different rules for bike then cars.

Roundabouts are very efficient...the problem is drivers who are the problem..
It just needs one muppet who approaches and empty roundabout to stop instead of driving onto it to cause havoc. And of course if you run into the back of her him it's your fault.. This is quite likely, as you will be looking to your right (left in US) to check for oncomming traffic.
Del

Uh ? If the w bloke in front, and you, both know the roudabout is empty, why are you looking right ?

To check it's still empty compare to when I checked it 30 yards back.
It's a big lumpy roundabout and a vehicle could have been concealed behind it when I first checked.
Any how I don't hit the vehicle in front...I just stand on the brakes and stopo about 0.1" behind it.
The Highway Code specifically states, don't stop if it's clear...
Del

I don't know about your roundabouts, but a few of the ones around have big fancy foliage in the center, which blocks any view of any other traffic screeching around the corners (well I suppose corners isn't quite the right word... there aren't any in a circle)... anyway....

It's comforting to know that someone may or may not be on the other side of the circle heading right for you... and you have no way of knowing... until it's nearly too late... all the ones around here are also dual lane jobs, which adds to my dislike, cause you HAVE to change lanes to maneuver through them... get in the inner lane to bypass the next exit... move into the outer lane to take the exit, so everyone is constantly changing lanes while turning the corner, while not being able to see the other motorists merging in with them... its a disaster if you ask me. I like to at least be able to see the bloke thats about to run into me so I can brace for impact.

Not to mention they take up considerable more space than a standard intersection, and the center space is completely useless space... unless you decide to make it pretty by planting shrubs, trees and flowers in the middle.

Efficient?? They put these things on truck routes??

Try being efficient in these tight circles with crew-cab pickup and a thirty foot 5th wheel, we don't need no stinking Muppet's

Living in Oklahoma most of my life, the only roundabout I ever dealt with was a nightmare.

However after traveling to the UK and spending a few days driving there I quickly began to understand how efficient they could be. (they are everywhere there)

The 3 and four lane ones are a bit difficult when you first go through them but having followed a friend of mine around in his car I began to understand how they work. I got quite comfortable driving around after only a couple of days and traveled from Worcester England to St. Andrews, Scotland and back again and had a great trip both ways.

Only thing that bothered me about driving the whole time I was there is that there is not enough notice given to turns and towns. The blasted things come up on you before you know it then you have to go round again to hit your exit. Bloody bugger honk at you madly when that happens.

The other thing that made it difficult was when asking for directions most ,people I met have no idea where anything is at in the next town let alone how to get to it.

I lived in New England for about 25 years, there were quite a few rotaries, they did take some getting used to.

If you haven't driven in the Boston area it is a bit of a shock to the system. A friend of mine who was from New York city used to say that he loved those Boston drivers, they were so competitive. If they haven't changed they were a real study.

At any rate some of the rotaries could be breath taking. I think the problem was that the majority of them were at least 2 lanes, These work fine for people familiar with the area and have a plan when they enter the rotary. The first guy in the circle that hesitates is lost. I have seen a few of them look like a demolition derby when someone got confused.

In their defence you can move intersections faster with a rotary than any other traffic control.

When I was in Maryland they installed one near my house it was one lane and replaced a four way stop. It didn't take up much more room than the original intersection and worked like a charm.

The police seem to love them because they can make up the weirdest interpretations of the rules. There is only supposed to be one rule "The person in the rotary has the right of way" period.

The first guy in the circle that hesitates is lost. I have seen a few of them look like a demolition derby when someone got confused.
EXACTLY! Dithering is what causes accidents NOT speed!
People don't seem to grasp the simple idea that....it doesn't matter if you miss your exit ...just go around again!
Why some times I'll go round three or four times if it's a particularly nice one
Del

Let's hear it for Swindon !

Washington,DC has some of the worst traffic circles I've ever seem. One called Dupont Circle has so many spokes that it resembles a wagon wheel. I have gone around that circle several times to get to the turnoff I wanted. Other drivers will fight you and try not to let you change lanes. You can't stop and wait for an opening as the drivers behind you want you to keep going. Someone unfamiliar with the road, can have a problem with a traffic circle.

Born and brought up around Boston and Rotary's !

The secret of success is to NEVER make eye contact with a driver to your right or left. If you do that, they will expect you to do something reasonable. Ignore them and they will make room for you.

That "never make eye contact", works even in straight through traffic. If you want to change lanes, making eye contact prompts the other driver to try to block you. Have you ever passed someone and try to get back in the lane. If you hesitate, they will shut you out.That is exactly how NASCAR racing works. If you want to pass, but can't, the space you just left will close up. When I pass, I check out of the corner of my eye (never turn your head) in my rear view mirror, turn on my right turn signal and immediately merge back into the lane. Done quickly, the passed driver doesn't have time to react. The police may frown upon this style of driving, but you do what you gotta do.

Driving habits might be a good subject for discussion.

By comparison I don't signal a lane change rather I signal my intent, period, deal with it I'm moving over...yeah I drive large vehicles

The New England variation on that is; when you see a flashing light signaling a right turn and there is a exit in 200 yards and an exit in 1/4 mile, and the car is in the outboard lane of a four lane highway, he has no intention of exiting in 1/4 mile. Deal with it or die.

My problem with rotaries is that it is too easy to get lost on one. I ALWAYS stop before entering a rotary, to survey the lay of the land and determine the landmarks I need to identify the preferred exit. I know that if I miss the exit on the first path, I am going to spend a couple of hours driving in circles because the landmarks don't look the same from inside the circle as they do from outside the circle...

I guess that makes most people happy I don't drive much any more...

Just recently had a circle installed at a major bottle neck 3 way intersection that used to back up 30 -40 cars deep each direction daily. Now almost no stops at all! huge improvement. Just a guess but circle handles 3-5x the car volume with much improved safety (Intersection used to log 1 wreck weekly, none since installed 9 mos ago. Far better than traffic light too.

Recent studies show PROPERLY DESIGNED traffic circles are much safer. The key apparently is to force the incoming traffic to have to deflect from a linear path, so they must slow down to enter the "intersection". This causes lower velocities through the intersection greatly reducing injuries. You don't get idiots "racing the red" at very high velocities.

Apparently traffic entering the traffic circle also has to clear traffic from fewer directions, there are fewer potential directions of oncoming traffic.

We have had a large traffic circle recently installed on a very large scale, complete with bypass lanes. Without a map or aerial view you don't even recognize it as a traffic circle. Posted speed is 70kph!

It seems obvious that most of you folks have never driven around a circle in south jersey (USA) because if you had you would know the dangers.

Here in NJ we don't slow down for the buggers, we speed up! After all where's the thrill in slowing down or knowing what's round the bend? Also if we miss the exit more than once most will take a hard left across the circle and go straight to our destination. Although we do have some who will stop and wait for traffic to cease,for years in some cases,while on the circle while others will gleefully go around and around for decades before deciding where to go.

And don't get me started on those 4 way stop intersections...

I have read a study recently which compared stop signs and roundabouts as crossroads traffic regulators. I cannot for the love of me now found any reference to it now though to link here.

Anyhow, what the study found is that roundabouts are safer due to the fact that they are perceived as more complex to navigate by the human mind. The driver will therefore pay a lot more attention to his surroundings and other road users than navigating a stop sign crossroads.

I had the opportunity to see two crossroads in the Johannesburg SA area evolve from 4 way stops to roundabouts and the traffic flow was definitely faster. I did however not have any accident data on that.

Here's a related article, and here's another. I haven't come across any reports on the success/failure of either scheme.

Nice articles on robot, but lets rather not start on robots also. I have to navigate 3 sets on my way to work. Yes, only three sets, but then I now live in a rural town of about 30 000 people only. It has become a real area of utter frustration to find all 3 of them red for more than 50% of the time. And the thing that p%^^@^ me off the most is that on approaching it turn red for me with no other vehicles on the green sides.

I'm sure there should be a science like "traffic flow management". And electronics are so good these days that I'm sure with the use of lasers they should be able to "read" the approach of vehicles and select the best fit switching program for the current traffic conditions. Why do we still use magnetic sensors and timers to do something that can be done much more effectively and I'm sure at no extra cost.

Sorry for straying OT.

We have a round-about here on the Island. It is used during the Banana harvest. We put the straight bananas in trucks and drive them around and around until the centrifugal forces give them the shape we all desire. Queenslanders are smart, you know.

Wish you were here, Ky.

I don't slow for Traffic circles the are fun.

But they are a piss poor choice for mixed traffic.

Semi Tractor trailers can not stay in their lane as they are built here.

We have a large influx of migrant(illegal) workers who can not read thus drive gumming them up. You can spot the one without licences etc because the drive 5mph under the posted rate but the city cops (revenuers) don't bother them unless forced because they can't or don't pay the fines.

On 395 between Kennewick and Pasco they just put in two more as the off ramps at 240. More than enough room for a full clover leaf. Probably selling the extra land in some questionable deal. Spilled my soda all over my seat so a semi had room to make the circle and not hurt someone. Not the driver's fault, it connects a commercial avenue to the highway system. Piss poor planning by some bureaucrat bean counter. They are doing all types of stupid people tricks to the roads in the northwest states.

Spend the money on feel-good legislation and cut infrastructure.

Damn soap box

BWIRE et al:

The key to toy haulers and horse trailers (based on my limited experience with the new round-abouts in north Phoenix and Mesa) is to accept that you don't fit, hit them square on the center stripe between two lanes and liberal use of both the air horns and the throttle on the diesel.

Once I clutch, a "perturbation" of the throttle makes a round black cloud that slows the traffic behind me so I can use the lanes with impunity (or impudence?).

For those who haven't visited, while they are refitting roundabouts all over Phoenix valley, they are the tightest, most cramped I've seen. Tough to make with the crew-cab in a single lane, much less the trailer. I also tend to drift back behind trailers entering and block traffic for them.

And 4 way stops in Phoenix are being eliminated because everyone who has moved there insists on "negotiating" who goes first for simultaneous stops. Takes forever.

Use the ole Los Angeles routing format no left turns

I've driven straight through the center of a few of those rounders, the plants spring back up behind

I live in Edmonton , Alberta. We have had traffic circles here for a number of years. They are a good way to keep traffic moving without signals, but only up to certain volume of traffic, then they slow down everything and cause massive jams. If you are not used to the way they operate, it can be confusing. Lately they have been removing the initial free flowing concept of the traffic circles and have installed lights. I would hate to be on a bike in one of the circles although I do agree with bikes following the rules of the road the same as any other vehicle, but providing bike lanes helps a lot.

Here in Eastern Massachusetts, Public Works is getting rid of two major traffic circles / rotaries / round abouts. One has been removed on the highway to Cape Cod, and one is to be removed at the Rt 93 / Rt 110 rotary in Methuen. There will always be a per centage of drivers that believe they are more privileged than any others, and zip thru stop signs or cut into traffic at rotaries. Theoretically, rotaries should work fine, but in reality, too many drivers will not alternate in the traffic flow. The result is a huge traffic jam during rush hours. On the other side of the coin, one can imagine the meeker drivers sitting at a stop sign while a continuous flow of traffic passes by, thus backing up roadways for Kms / miles. In some countries, I am more familiar with the Philippines, they build "fly overs" or over-passes to circumvent traffic jams at maajor intersections. Another alternative is traffic lights, but realistic timing cycles are necessary for efficiency. Bottom line: There are too many vehicles on our outdated roadways!!

I think the only problem with traffic circles is that some of them are too small, like the one's onto the Cape. We had the one in Kingston NY redone larger a few years ago. That eliminated the one stop light and added by-passes. Traffic now goes like poop thru a goose. No accidents, scuff marks, or squealing tires since.

And a special finger to NJ drivers who ignore the rules of the road consistently.

problem with circles is not what's in front. it's what's following behind...er, but, in that case, it must be what's in front!

Here is an amusing story about traffic circles:

I was north bound on the Newburyport turnpike in New Hampshire and coming up on the Portsmouth traffic circle which was about 100 feet in diameter. On my left, two old ladies passed me going turnpike speed and behind them was a NH state patrol car. I was slowing down for the circle, but the two old ladies just kept on going straight. They hit the curb of the circle which was unpaved and kept right on going across the circle and continued straight on the road. I saw the cop in the police car just shake his head in disbelief. He didn't even try to persue them. I'm guessing the two old ladies got spooked being followed by the police car and kept going straight at the same speed with white knuckles on the steering wheel. This happened about 45 years ago, but the image is so clear in my mind, I will never forget it.