Can We Engineer an Answer to the Energy Question?

Emjay4119:

Unfortunately liquid CO₂ (-78.5 °C) is nowhere near cold enough for any superconductor yet discovered although it is useful for a great number of other processes, many of which include freezing or chilling.

The present state of the art of "high temperature superconductivity" is with materials that are superconducting not far above the temp. of liquid N₂ (-196 °C), although in a laboratory setting, superconductivity at approx. -135°C has been achieved.

Greg

A considerable amount of energy has been expended in liquefying CO2 so that it may be sequested instead of being released into the atmosphere.

Allowing it to evaporate for cooling purposes would defeat the object.

Hi Syhprum:

I couldn't agree more, although used to cool superconductive cables wouldn't rely on any evaporation unless in the event the refrigeration units failed. But its not cold enough for that purpose anyway.

It is used in large amounts right now for various cooling/freezing of many things including food products. Since it mainly is refined from combustion products, it isn't adding anything to the atmospheric equation, and if nothing else, "dry ice" is incredibly useful.

But as I said I agree that it would be best to rely on uses that sequester at least most of it (except for dry ice).

Regards,

Greg

The point is we actually remove energy from gases to liquify them (or solidify them), that is where I'm coming from with energy recycling.

there no doubt there is thermal energy stored in the CO2 gas before it is liquefied but heat will only flow from a higher temperature source to a lower temperature sink.

If we wish to lower the temperature of the CO2 to liquefy it we must expend energy in a refrigeration plant to pump the heat out.

There is another parameter called PRESSURE. This one can make air to go solid, why only liquid.

If you have seen a diamond pressure cell then it makes metal to go transparent and insulators can become metal. This device is just wonderful.

Hi, Shyam.

I still wait for Your answer about Electronic Nose.......? Please, it is VERY important to me, and could preclude death of many dogs that search for Truffles, as people poison them to prevent other dog owners to search for them!

In case of >>diamond pressure cell<< and metals that go transparent, can You specify which metals? How overall strenght of such metal change? Does it became brittle? What is index of refraction of such transparent metal? How big pieces could be produced? I seem to remember that very cold and soldified Oxigen behave like metal, too....

Regards from Zagreb, the capitol of Republic of Croatia, Europe!

Marijan Pollak, IT SE 1st Class, Instructor and Team Leader
Owner and Director of company
OBERON d.o.o. ZAGREB +385 1 463 5 338

Dear Henrik14

Electronic nose is not a real replacement of biological nose as such. These instrument designs are to sense chemicals by ion mass, particle mass, molecular interactions, optical interactions etc. They can not repair themselves as biological system can do. Hence, have life of usability. IMS is the one which survives longest for ten years or more.

Metals under pressure have one property and when pressure is released they come back to normal properties. Metal crystals have optical properties to x-rays and act as grating due to molecular organization in the crystal structure.

Thank You for Your answer!

So unlike diamonds, metal revert to previous state..... Not much usable then, except in submarines, IF there could be achieved adequate pressure at all...:-((

I know they are not replacement for organic noses, but it seems to me newest ones like zNose at http://www.techmondial.co.uk which work on totaly different principle than others and have greatest sensitivity also, and I guess I have idea how to >>flush<< it after sample is processed, so baring other idiosyncrasies, it should last indefinately.... It has portable version, too, but is way too expensive as it cost 10 times more than people can afford for mass use, and not so light to carry either! I wondered if scientists in India are working along same lines, as I would suggest specialization, or training on sample of chemical to be detected, where carrying Laptop computer would not be necesary, and I also think I know how it could be made much more sensitive along same principles used......... Not just this, but I also have idea how to make it very light and possibly handheld, too, and if they need Neural Network program for recognition, I could also make one, based on my own discoveries in programming such networks, where I achieved speedup in factor of 1 thousand or more....... I am sure I could sell at least 1000 pieces just in my country, and if succesfull at finding smell of Truffles, at least 100 thousands just in Europe! At second tought, we have high quality mushroom here with characteristic smell also, that is collected and cut and dried, also geting good market price, so it would be possible to use it for picking such mushrooms, which still widen scope of intended usage...... Could You devote some of Your time and go at hyperlink provided, study principle involved and try to find someone among Indian scientists that is working in similar field? PLEASE? If I become representative for company producing such noses, or even start production here in Croatia based on prototype made in India, I would give 50% of profit to scientist or scientific laboratory involved, and 25% to You, while remaining 25% would be for my company. If for instance cost of materials and their production would cost 1000$ and assembly and factory profit another 1000$ and I can sell it for 4000$, that would be 1000$ per unit sold for scientist or that person's laboratory, 500$ for You and 500$ for me, and this would be considered cheap product as zNose cost 50 000$ or more........

Regards,

Marijan Pollak, IT SE 1st Class, Instructor and team leader

Dear Henrik14

As I have talked about few sensors that can sense few chemicals. However, these sensors can hardly differentiate among substances. At best they are made sensitive to one or few selective compounds. People are trying to develop an universal response sensor that can differentiate most of the molecules using single sensors. We are yet to know such sensor.

Living system is very complex and it can make complete life out of single cell. You can reproduce entire animal out of one cell. That much information and capability it has.

All right now is possible to just get some response from sensors for some chemical for which it is developed. It is possible to have great sensitivity to mass measurement to ng level and ppb level concentration or even one can sense single molecule or atom.

While it is easily to know about free atoms as they are only limited in numbers. Molecules are too many and they change their form also in time and environment. Molecules may also become many types in chemical transformation. It is very difficult to get complete idea of what is going on. Only when we have some idea of what may be there in environment and we happens to have a sensor for it then we may hot easily at the result. Lab tests are done in lot of time and using all possible methods one by one and hence are not practical field use sensors.

Perhaps in time as knowledge grows many folds and we have greater knowledge at our command we may be able to develop much better sensors. Right now development of sensor requires a lot of research funds, it makes sensors very expensive irrespective of who makes it.

Honored sir,

I agree with most of what You have said as this is known to me. Device "zNose" work on different principle then what You mentioned and is more sensitive than others, so please visit that site and see for Yourself.... It IS such universal sensor like You write about, too!

For my intended use, most important chemicall that give characteristic odour has allready been indentified, too. But sensitivity is key, more the better! If device can memorize sample of smell and be able to recognize such (or very similar) smell even in small quantities, then it is what I would need......

I am not proposing to start research on subject, I am looking for some laboratory that has had researched it and is still researching or has finished research, so I would not have to wait long time for results, ok?

I also think I know the way how to make such electronic nose (working on SAME PRINCIPLE as zNose, that is) much more sensitive and capable of diferentiating between wider range of chemicalls, and that means (I hope I am not wrong) also smells.........

Any suggestions ?

zNose is QCM or surface acoustics wave based technology which senses chemical in another chemical gel by trapping the chemical. Problem here is that you need to have that magic gel that can trap one type of chemical and then have many such gel for each chemical and so many QCM or SAW sensor in one system to make a nose.

It is not difficult to build.

Honored sir,

I have read article from BusinessWeek that could be found here: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/dec2000/nf20001218_725.htm but it did not mention any trapping of chemicall in chemicall gel?

Here is excerpt:

One inventor, Edward J. Staples, took a radically different approach. He developed a device that can characterize virtually any smell -- with only one sensor. Its method of detection? Sound. At the heart of the instrument is a quartz crystal that vibrates in response to an electrical current, just like those that count the seconds in a typical wrist watches.

TIMED RESPONSE. It works like this: The chemical constituents of a sample separate as they travel along a specially coated tube. Each substance alters the vibration of the crystal as it passes over the sensor. By measuring the time required for each chemical to reach the sensor and the amount it effects the crystal's vibration, both the identity of the substance and the quantity in which it is present can be calculated by software incorporated in the instrument. The entire process takes only 10 seconds.

I know OTHER E-Noses work like You say, BUT NOT this one! They also claim resolution of few parts in TRILION:

Q: What is different about the zNose?
A: The zNose is a big departure from other technologies. The zNose can separate and measure the concentration of each chemical in an aromatic product, or the ingredients of that product, in about 10 seconds. Because it is based on a single acoustical sensor, it can be calibrated to detect virtually any hydrocarbon, even if they are only present in concentrations of parts per trillion. Because zNose can also calculate the amount of a chemical, it is the only instrument approved by the Environmental Protection Agency.

I wrote email to the factory, but they are not answering at all :-((

Regards, Marijan Pollak

Yes, the idea of Edward J. Staples is slightly different. It uses well known technology of gene coding by something like electrophoresis and then SAW resonator QCM for detecting time of arrival. One can also use optical method for detection of time of arrival.

Originally SAW resonator technology for chemical sensing was developed at ORNL, USA. Electrophoresis which is gel based IMS has been in use for very long for gene coding and can be of the size of human hair, nano-tube or few mm thick tube.

I have used all these 20 years ago. We tagged chemicals with radioactive atoms or fluorescent chemicals for detection of time of arrival. It is a simple lab technique.

You read this link and also look for more info at ORNL web site.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/lasers_optics_diagnostics/FactSheets/Datskos-CalSpecNEMSChembio.pdf

Honored sir,

I am afraid You got me lost........ I did not have seen any Lasers mentioned in regard to zNose, and this hyperlink produce just BLANK page for me, so cant You start writting to me at oberon@globalnet.hr since this is not related to topic of this thread anyway?

I asked for contact with some Indian laboratory that is researching this, please?

Regards from Zagreb the capitol of Croatia, Europe!

Marijan Pollak, IT SE 1st Class, Instructor and Team Leader
Owner and CEO of company
OBERON d.o.o. ZAGREB

Link is fine. Just click and let it load the PDF file. The file name is

Datskos-CalSpecNEMSChembio.pdf

perhaps you can contact for more details.

Panos Datskos / Slo Rajic

Oak Ridge National Laboratory

P.O. Box 2008, MS 6141

Oak Ridge, TN 37831

Phone: 865-574-6205 / 865-574-9416

FAX: 865-574-9407

E-mail: datskospg@ornl.gov / rajics@ornl.gov

http://www.mnl.ornl.gov

Honored sir,

I tried whichever way I can to get document You describe, even backtracking it to root of this website, but it fails to produce even page of subfolder it should be in, sorry! As much as I have seen, this is US university in Orlando, and I asked something from India, because portable zNose cost 50 000+ US $ and privately nobody can afford this kind of money expenditure in my country!

Thanks anyway for Your time and efforts!

Regards from Zagreb the capitol of Croatia, Europe!

Marijan Pollak, IT SE 1st Class, Instructor and Team Leader
Owner and CEO of company
OBERON d.o.o. ZAGREB
oberon@globalnet.hr

Saw resonator based sensor can be built for about US$3000 each sensors in volume of about 1000 sensor minimum production making it about 3 million dollars in investment to get 1000 such sensors. Do you think that will make sense for your country?

QCM sensors were tried in India in Lab CSIO and something similar in Tea research Institute. Atomic Energy uses electrophoresis for genetic defect monitoring due to radiation damage. I think defense lab uses QCM for explosive and nerve gas monitoring. These are only sources known to me. None of them to commercial level.

I was asked to manufacture these technology and they are yet to find funds for me.

If you have capacity to buy then these sensors can be developed easily. However, volume requirement is essential.

I will like to clear it out that even though sound was described as sensing mechanism, it 10MHz to 500Mhz range those SAW resonators work and not in kHz of sound level as you know. Greater the frequency of the SAW resonator better is QCM mass resolution. 1Hz change in 10MHz means 0.1ppm sensitivity. Capillary tubes are pretty long and delicate with only micron size hole in which chemicals are made to travel as per their mobility in the drift media, which is often some buffer or gel. Drift gas (IMS) or vacuum is also used in much larger systems like SIMS and ESCA.

The above picture describes the way these sensors are made. You can make these too or any one can make these with some electronics knowledge. You need either QCM or UV Spectrometer to detect the time of arrival of the chemical. Time of arrival tells the mass of the ionized positively charged molecule or ion. You can also sense negatively charged radicals, even atoms of metals, salt ions Na+, K+ etc. It is a very sensitive technique. You can buy these instruments for about $5000 range.

Just a suggestion, but it would be fare easier to understand your message if you stuck with SI units rather than mixing things like Hp and T in with metric units.

Nice idea, like an end to the Babel Tower of measurement.

Is this like some a collection of standards to to be globally unified?

When was it proposed?

Hi, Masu!

I dont know wether it is my computer or this CR4 pages, but I get all answers mixed up, as this one comes after 261, I cannot get to last answer and scroll backward, when I click on link that should give last answer, I get beginning of thread, and can go down just to 206..........:-((

I also noticed that there is no information how much people has read particular posting, and if it is just 2-3 persons that answer posts, then it is not worth trouble, is it?

Anyway, it is good to excange ideas with other proffesionals and hear their constructive critic, but I would wish that there is a way to put good ideas to practicall use! Like this, I have no sense of acomplishment at all, and in the end it seems that I only waste my time here, which I can hardly afford!

Cant we organize some mutuall help, some way everybody who thinks some idea is valuable and feasible could invest in it, by geting shares of company in return, so they would be getting dividends once thing start selling?

I tought You would be delighted by my solution for this tower building problem, but no comment is comming as yet, are You OK?

Regards from Zagreb the capitol of Croatia, Europe!

Marijan Pollak, IT SE 1st Class, Instructor and Team Leader
Owner and CEO of company
OBERON d.o.o. ZAGREB

Do you have a demo model ready now? I will like to see one in working. What is the RPM of the engine shaft, type of fuel used and expected life of the engine on continuous use? Engine also requires material technology.

one of the great source for energy freely available to us is wind energy which is generated during propellsion of fan in an engine which runs automobile conver that energy to dirve vehicle either by storing it in batteries or as a d c current then we need fuel only to start a vehicle or if the road is very steep heigh alll we need is a storage device which after converting wind power to energy can be stored and used to run auto or machine which runs at hight speed if d c batter is used there can be low weight cells as there will be no need to store energy

example for this is a cycle dynamo which lights the lamp in front of cycle by generating power due to friction at tyre point

I am afraid it doesn't work that way. Any energy generated from the air moving past a vehicle that is propelled by a motor derives all its energy from the motor propelling the vehicle. Inefficiencies in engines and friction means you consume more fuel and it is far more efficient to just not use the fuel in the first place.

i may be vague in my concept if we can apply the logic of how a dyanamo works in a cycle to light lamp by using friction caused due to rubbing of dyanamo wheel against tyre instead of wind it can be fan itself like how hydro power is generated using water to make the turbo propell here wind propells the fan blade

Hi,

It may not have been remarked but if you couple the dynamo to the wheel, you have to push harder.

The energy that is pulled out of the water in hydro applications is solar heat that has evaporated the water and pushed it up. While condensing in colder air and raining out a part of the heat energy is given back to the air. But some of it is stored in the height difference.

Do the exercise: mount a fan on the roof of your car and start driving with it. Do this for some weeks and record the fuel usage.

Then take of the fan and do the same daily trips and check your fuel usage again.

The energy that is "gained" in the dynamo or fan needs to be generated at another spot.

hi

tnx for response i am just comparing coupling of dyanamo to tyre as an example

this is done to create friction and also to make shaft rotate inside dynamo

when fan in an auto is already rotating and has more friction created then what it can be when one cycles why not use it

You might be right on the fan below the hoot of the car. I never had the chance to check it's speed while driving on the freeway. (I'm not ready to run for a Darwin Award)

It will turn while driving, generating friction in the air flow through the compartment.

Trying to get some energy out will result in a slow down of the fan and in les sheat produced in the bearings. This reduction of heat is the energy you can get out.

The air flow will be more restricted and the outside air will have to push harder. Your motor will have to work harder. But I agree, you will need some decent measurement equipment to be able to track it.

In the end you will indeed gain a littlebit of energy that otherwise would have been transferred to heat. But never forget: a littlebit, maybe not sufficient to drive the electronics that need to drive the system. The energy in wind is only little compaired with the energy stored in the movement of the car.

Wind turbines need to be big and high numbered to have sufficient energy harvested to be able to do something in our energy demanding society.

hi

tnx for the response all those paramaters u have discussed is a matter of detail which needs to be worked on what intrests us in this direction is a small dynamo which is coupled to tyre generating power to light head light of a cycle the friction created is very low but the fan blades are big and friction is more with suitable changes in design it is possible to generate energy and either store it and use or consume it directly if this can save 20% of fuel consumption also it is a saving and i am sure it is a serious food for thought and to work on it.

You will never end up with a fuel saving.

As stated earlier, you will notice a small increase in fuel consumtion and the output of the fan will be in this zone, perhaps a bit more. But never more than some W.

You changed nothing to the working parameters of the car, and the electrical generation of the car is several hunderds of Watts. You might be gaining some watts out of the fan, that you can inject there. even most of the power gained will be lost in the circuity necessary for the fan managment and lifting up of the fan output level.

hi

tnx for ur response i got what u meant

Um, if I may say so, You have taken wrong angle of wiew, as one may save energy by NOT powering that ventilator at high speed car moving, because it is normaly pushing air to make air stream which cool engine, while at high speed driving air come in with enough speed to cool engine, actually, the trick would be to remove ventilator from air path completely! I would do it for instance this way: make V shaped (or enlongated truncated cone) air inlet, where wider side is in front of the car, and in narower part there wolud be 4 equall sized pipes, where two outer ones have ventilators and two inner oned dont have...... then we would have two wings that in one position met together with tips of wings to cover inner pipes standing on slant over them. This is low speed moving position and we have / \ / \ look of air path, while in fast driving those wings move to opposite side, / V \ and then it would look like this: / / \ \ (sorry if I cannot simulate this with dash marks properly) in effect covering V V pipes with ventilators and driving high speed air through open pipes......... to make air flow easier, instead of TWO round pipes in the middle there could be only ONE twice as big and elipsoid shaped, too!

This is example of "Thinking out of box", and in Your example ventilators would have to spend more energy because Your propeler would be additionall hindrance for air flow.......

Only, this ventilator we are talking about is usually conected to engine directly by transmision belt, and in my case it would have to be electric fans to be able to be switched off, unless someone know how to disengage ventilators from their driving shaft when necesary and engage them again.......

Hey, guys what a nice post, i am a newbie for this forum site.

You are right MASU, Marry Christmas to all CR4 readers.

Sun and earth have been in a thermal balance ever since.

I am conservative engineer but not stupid and 100% sure that global warming is Man-made, by means of the huge amounts of heat we genereate and add daily to atmospher -what realy unbalance the global temperature seriously- which impacts over climate change of course.

Sun is not harfull to us, intead I see its energy as the prime solution to TERRICOLAS needs, while converted by means of themosolar panels and electrosolar panels. However, Wind, Tide and Hidro Energy -as well- will complement our needs of energy.

Again, time waisting debates on matter -help nobody- intead as engineers we must work on feaseable solutions right away, and I do my best to contribute in the elimination one of the biggest cause of air overheating -the gas water heaters-

I bet on solar energy, and designed a thermal solar panel and the machines to mass produce it so that can be on sale at as low price as a gas water heater -for homes-

Altough I incubated the project in Universidad tecnologica -UNITEC- we are stacked due to lack of fund and a compulsory normativity world wide -that promote it use -of free, clean and ecology friendly solar energy-

Can some one help us to knock the right door to find federal or multinationals funds tagged for development of products and technologies that works on clean, sustainable and renovable energy to stops climate changes. I`ll appreciate any tip, comment, contact or guiding help.

We shouldnt get mixup, as all reporters of news, from some commenters in related CR4 forums, if: EL NIÑO effect, the green house effect, the 50 sec more sun in june effect, either, forgett it, but the global warming is here, it is a fact and we all can help if we focus on the real causes of the problem, and down here.

WORLDISGREEN.COM...BUSSINESS STRATEGY & SUSTAINABILITY, SEPT 3, 2007

- IT IS A CRAISY IDEA to send satelite MIRRORS to BLIND AND REDUCE incoming solar energy to avoid climate change.... Again, Sun has never been harmfull to Earth....... Sun Radiation is in a perfect Thermal Equilibrium with Earth -ever since. is`nt it so?-........... we Humans are the danger to earth..

REAL CAUSES:

Real causes are down here, where HUGE amounts of waisted heat from more than 7.5 billions tons of hot gases -per year- are generated while burning fuels -in motor vehicles, water heaters, boilers, thermoelectric generators, driers, ranges, ovens, etc-. We dont have to be scientist to understand the math equation, showing that the problem results from the extra added heat to atmosphere:

IR sun energy + extra waisted heat from burning fuels = atmosphere overheating, that`s it.

= more evaporation = denser clouds = flooding storms = polar deice = actual kaoz.

- Do you know what happen now that petroleum XX century is gone and Solar XXI century will replace fuels-WITH FREE AND CLEAN NATURAL ENERGY?- ......very simple.....the depleted AND EXPENSIVE petroleum will go down to 1 dollar per barrel and that will crack petroleum industry....... See? ...ENERGY will be free then, and peaple will save money to buy many thing else -as a free-maintance electric car ----and so on----- politically impossible?....IT SEEMS LIKE FICTION MOVIE….....but there are...

TWO SOLUTIONS:

1. Urge to replace all combustion devices, equipments and engines -WITH SOLAR AND ELECTRIC POWERED ONES-.

2. As well as urgent is to reforest the world with billions of trees – they are magic factories that will clean air from CO2, by:

Sucking CO2 + Absorbing solar UV and solar heat = to return us pure and fresh OXIGEN -instead-

Trees never heat the air -so- the craisy green house effect does not happen -that's a lie-

The true is that are cooking our self's in this global pot, due to PETRO-effect -nothing else-.

HOW YOU CAN HELP? :

- I urge any body who has responsability of enviromental care and have funds -you must support any projects where products (vehicles or equipments) pursue this change over -to a new solar and electric eco-culture-.

-I urge Presidents all -to issue compulsory regulations to stop using any apparatus, device or engines where combustion of fuels take place -of any hidrocarbons (liquid or gas) alcohols, biofuels, carbons or hidrogen too- because all react exothermicaly generating the hot gases that over-heat the air -depleting oxigen O2 and ozone O3 as well while they burn to CO2 -which ixcess is getting a letal concentration level, too-.

• Now, I hope you understand it better -the real global warming problem- to communicate it to all your friends -what is going on- to become more that GREEN peaple -but ECOLOGY ORIENTE PEAPLE, co-responsible- don't relay on heaven help, only. PLEASE STOP BURNIG FUELS guys.

jmjr, Senior Chem. Eng, MS from UMass,

Zapopan, jal. Mexico

I have responded to this post in the Improved External Combustion Engines thread, so rather than repeating myself please follow the links I have provided to read my response or view the entire thread.

car crasher are becoming more and more frequent due to the young generation getting easy access to vehicles. is there such a device that can stop this or does anyone have an idea about how you could develop one?.please help.

G'day Guest,

Automotive safety is a very large topic and quiet worthy of a thread or even a blog of its own. May I suggest registering with CR4 and starting up a series of threads in a similar way to the future of energy series that this thread is part of.

I personally would be very interested in it and would certainly be an active participant.

Regards, masu