Feasibility Discussion on Modular Vehicles

There are the traditional Diesel 5^th wheel Tractor trailers that with the specialized car carrier trailers are routinely used to move most new cars inland from the coastal areas and around the continent from north American auto manufactures.

FYI: It was the 18 wheelers that first started to utilize significantly lighter aluminum-magnesium alloy wheels. Over there millions of miles of hauling, they could carry more freight in lieu weight of the heavier wheels that made them cost effective.

The Auto-train actually runs from Virginia to Sanford, Florida. It is expensive to use, and still leaves a bit of driving in each direction.

Image springs to mind....scene of some movies of old.... Robbers trying to 'getaway'.... driving into the pantec at 60mph. How many of them supermarket mommas would you let try that?

Stu

Stu

you're gonna have to help me out my aussie translator is out

When I try to figure out pantec I end up here

Pantechnicon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Channel Tunnel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I didn't say the train thing was my idea

umm van = pantec

Sorry Bob. 'pantec' is Aussie for pantechnicon = funiture van/truck

Stu

Garth, Even then I got it wrong. I was on the phone at the same time and typed Bob's name in by mistake. I hope he didn't know either????

Stu

Are you sure there wasn't beer involved

What?

Hi Chris et al,

The only way I would want to be physically coupled to other such vehicles, especially at highways speeds, would be if they were all on tracks like a railroad. Otherwise even the slightest mishap are misalignment would end up like being a 'snap the whip or dragon's tail' game as is sometimes done on skating rinks. It sets the whole thing into undulating motions that are further increased as they get towards the end of the linked trains. Once such motions were started, especially at high speeds, it would only end up being catastrophic.

Actually keep thinking about it. the physical connection would give the network much more direct feedback for error correction, microseconds count. The longer the convoy the safer it becomes, more data points, more mass, every small error becoming less significant to the total system.

of course it would have to be automated, there is no chance of having humans keeping that level of coordination or concentration.

there have been carcarriers on trains forever, using the ability to coordinate in real time is the difference.

I remember the yacht moving barge, real cool. what are yachts but the 1st mobile homes

Just imagine 20, or 30 cars nose to tail flying along as speeds our parents would never dream of driving at. So close together that they slice through the air as a single force against the wind.

Rumor has it that some fools are going to try this in northern Florida this weekend.

I know you bring it up everytime I trot this ol thing out

Don't I hear you mother calling

It's time for your bath

Hi Garth et al,

The ones I have heard and read about and seen including real life demonstrations aren't physically coupled. They utilize several enhanced and advanced perimeter sensors of different types and are computer (assisted) controls. In a number of them, except for the lead 'pilot vehicle,' they are entirely computer controlled when they are operating is such tighly packed formations. The drafting cuts fuel consmption signifiantly.

As well as significantly increased vehicle densities, they much safer than relying on the drivers to do this. I know I wouldn't want to be in the middle of a pack of vehicles nose to tail with less than a car length between them at 120 KpH relying on every driver being totally and completely attentive to this every moment and relying on them to not make even the slightest errors. A computer dedicated to this task attend to nothing else but and can react much faster than we do and include forming 'real time network communications between the vehicles involved. All of the vehicles, including the lead one also have lane sensing capabilities.

Please don't let it be MicroSoft, PLEASE!

Have you been on the Toyota recall site? There are people there that don't trust electronic throttles. I don't think they will ever accept this plan. I hate to think about trying to get all the different manufacturers to have a common system to allow all to communicate with each other at 80 mph.

Right now the manufacturers can't standardize on wheel mounting designs.

Mate, I've been watchin' ya. Now I'm watchin' ya back.

Hand me the shotgun.

Been busy making our ICF's work. Should be busy now but got interested in this.

Stu.

Transportation Perspectives and Realities:

Close Calls, Mishaps, Hazards, Calamities,

Injures. Maiming, Impairments and Death.

I have noticed that navigating on the ground in vehicles that in spite of almost constant mishaps, accidents, collisions, injuries from minor to critical, including people being permanently maimed and impaired of a very wide range and Death.

Alas have experienced a number of them first hand.

Yet we still have millions of vehicles at any one time on the ground operating.

We travel in them constantly in spite of the fact that we might get plowed into by a fully loaded semi trailer or bus at highs speeds.

These events are not limited to just ground transportation. On the water: huge ferries going under in some cases with several hundred on board, likewise with air travel.

Do you think that any of these modes of powered transportation will be made illegal and completely banned globally any time soon because of these events unless they are completely eradicated ?

CAD: Computer Aided Driving

Hi Chris,

There is quite a bit of ongoing R&D including some road testing utilizing modern technology including a multitude of sensors and computer controlled speed and braking that allows vehicle to travel very close together at high speeds, which makes a significant reduction in fuel consumption and allows for a significantly higher density of traffic that is MUCH safer that people doing this.

I've seen some quite impressive demonstrations.

Personally on the occasions that I commuted in and out of the city during rush hours I absolutely hated it because of many drivers idiotic behavior and people not leaving anywhere near enough room for safety.

Year ago in the Vancouver area we were out at motocross racing events on a Sunday. My car packed it in and I got towed home on the freeway in the evening when thousands of other people were heading home to the urban area as well on the Trans Canada Highway with extremely high densities of traffic with a solid steel chain that left about 12 feet between me and the tow vehicle.

Whew, I NEVER want to do that again.

In spite of the bad raps that computes get, with the proper technology I would much rather have these systems to aid and assist me and other drivers.

It seems that ISO would be a good fit for this Garth

Scientists already have a High tech 'Noah's Ark' for pant life buried deep in the perma-frost in the Norwegian arctic.

It is built and designed to be the absolute best it can be with our current technology in order to ensure safe survival of these for a VERY long period of time.

They have already made significant progress of stocking it and are continuing to do so.

It would be an asset to have chat rooms in which people can carry on converstions and discussions in real time together.

what are you talking about

public or private chats?

Hi Garth,

Both would be great, It would be a good thing to be able to convese on things in real time if others are onthat aer interested in similar topics and want to engage with others

Engine has a VERY high Power to Weight & Volume ratio and mounts in any orientation in any location!

You'll love this for modularity Chris:

My engine can operate in any special orientation, with it's very high power to weight and volume ratio, it can be made very small and light and rev higher and gear it down and then utilize 5 more of the same configuration but CONSIDERALBY smaller that will be used for hydraulic pumps/motors. One to drive each wheel. The 4 smaller pumps/motors can BE the wheel. With the larger unit coupled directly to the engine. With hydraulics VERY high power to weight and volume capabilities, it will also used for regenerative braking and the engine will be spun up as a large flywheel to store considerable power for immediate usage when accelerating again.

With absolutely no mechanical drive train this configuration removes virtually ALL restrictions on engine location and orientation allowing for considerably more freedom of design options.

To give you some idea and a reference, with a fairly slow revving engine with enough power and torque to handle a reasonably large vehicle. It will be about the size of the vehicles wheel with its tire mounted on it. It can be reduced in size by revving it higher and gearing it down more.

Doug, there's an engine in every mechanic. There's an engine in every Automotive Engineer. There is one, in this one too.

It won't be worth the effort to make it though. When I dreamed it up I was quite young, and time has passed to where the technology is now very much old hat. And the scene is changing so rapidly that it's almost a full time job to keep up. I'd love to make it. Be a technological waste of time. Great filip to the ego though.

We're talking combustion technology that's thirty years out of date now.

My friend Col Clifford has made one which in the realm of conventional combustion technology has some promise.He's been working on this for nearly thirty years. The prototype can be seen here:www.nu-teconline.com.

He's configured it in odd count cylinders in single and double row. The double row 18 has been calc'ed to nearly a thousand horsepower, out of 3 litres, and only 50 moving parts. Hard to imagine at first, eh? And, constructed entirely of Al extrusion (little machining, no castings), you and I could pick it up carry it. It will run happily in any orientation.

Food for thought.

With the trend to pure electrics, hybrid being only a range extender, I clearly see the demise of the auto transmission as we know and love it. Diesel electrics.

We once electric converted a FIAT Bambino ( rear engined 500cc) to 24v electric, by simply replacing the engine with a Lucas 24v traction motor. Still had clutch and gears. 1974. Had we been switched on we'd have put a tiny trailer holding a genset behind this thing and had huge range.

Could do that with a plug-in electric now. Need range for holidays? Hook on the trailer! Cut tailpipe emissions - fuel with Propane

Food for thought.

Cheers,

Stu

IC obsolescence, diversification and wide ranging market needs.

Hi Stu,

Ya I'm aware of all of these factors and am late to the gate. But on the other hand with the current environment that makes the sorts of things we are talking about and doing such as the one Blink is working on and building, there are more opportunities than ever for all sorts of option.

I have what should be a VERY efficient electric motor design as well. Who doesn't these days? (< 8)

I know that I cad double the efficiency of current Otto engines and likely even more.

There is no denying what you are saying, and it IS a good thing, our dying world needs all of the help it can get now, and it's the only home we have.

But in spite of all these factors, I think there will very likely be IC engines around for quite some time yet.

Also the technology is to the point where sterling cycle engines with external combustion which makes it a much more constant steady flame, that is significantly more efficient and less pollution are possible.

They use them in satellites, and have for quite some time.

So while it's very likely that they will start waning, which as we both acknowledge is is a good thing, there not out for the count by quiet a wide mark just yet.

Engines, engine everywhere! In all sorts of shapes, sizes and configurations!

Verses 1,000 pounds of high tech very expensive batteries that will only last for a couple of years before they need replacing! Hmmm?

Hi Stu,

I checked your buddies engine out. There is REAMS of machining in it. The only reason that his isn't using castings is because his volume is to low and cost too much money to get the moulds and castings made. This is perfectly understandable as you say he has gone through many iterations of different designs, models and further developments. This is very typical of such things for very good reasons. If and when he very gets it 'nailed down' and ready to produce it, has a market 'locked in' and can come up with the necessary funding and resources to do it, I can guarantee you he won't be making them out of generic chunks of metals that are as close to the size as he can get that suits his needs and that require a LOT more difficult expensive machining than he would have with appropriate castings and forgings.

He has some innovations in it, but frankly it's a modernized version of WW1 Aircraft engine and how many of those have been manufactured for the last 60 years?. I don't want to get into a situation here where you react in such a way that you feel you have to defend him and his engine as he is a friend of yours. As you say, he has put very significant time, energy, creativity, mosey and quite likely a fair bit of sacrifice to get it to the point that it is. The ability to operate as both a 2 & a 4 stroke is quite an accomplishment with ports. I'm not sure how easily and readily it is being done. Mine could be a 2 or 4 stroke as well, though they would have to be designed and manufactured specifically for one or the other.

But quite honestly, my design is a significantly better with substantial advantages over his design. I'm not just saying it because it's mine. If it wasn't, I'd admit it and have to bite the bullet and chuck it all in the dust bin. But that most definitely is NOT the case. You'll be VERY hard pressed to find any configuration of engine that I'm not aware of. Though I don't have a 'perfect' memory by far: mine tends very much more to 'what' rather than 'who' or 'when' and I would have to do some significant intensive studying if I'm going to be subject to interrogation! LoL Which I won't be doing.

Wankel couldn't get his design to seal properly because of the nature of it shape and the sliding seals with corners. The Japanese finally did it, mind you it was decades later with significant material developments during that period. Because of its shape and geometry of the combustion chambers it has significant drawbacks that are insurmountable with the design. Namely higher fuel consumption and more pollution. On top of which it is it VERY expensive and difficult to machine and manufacture it.

Wankel had set up a 'world wide' company to promote and market it. Along with the Japanese, and you are likely aware of how little market share Wankels have in both Japan and in north America, General Motors took the bait. They signed a $150 million USD contract that only gave them the rights to R&D it for two years. At the end of it they wrote it off for number of quite valid reasons. They acknowledged that if the first functional IC engines had been Wankels to start with, that most vehicle would likely have them today, in which case we would all be worse off. They said that while it did have some advantages, they wasn't anywhere near enough to switch over from reciprocating piston engines. They would be better of pour more money and R&D and improve what they had and knew very well and would be further ahead with what they had. They were right. It's a shame that they have been so stagnant and haven't made significant advance and improvements in it that are quite readily possible. However these factors all add up to the possibility of me having a much better chance of succeeding.

Regards,

Doug

Engine due more Credit! So does Propane and Natural gas.

Hi Stuey,

I'm not giving your buddy enough credit Stu. While the basic Crank, ConRods and Pistons configurations are basically the same as a aeronautical WW1 Radial Piston engine, he has done significant development with it in the external periphery port ring.

I am curious about his 2 stroke / 4 stroke configuration.

Not because I want to 'steal' it from him, but because this is one of my 'fields' and I'm always interested in all innovations in it and anything directly related to it.

I wish him well with it, I hope he succeeds and becomes very successful with it, but as you pointed out to me.. . . .

Propane does has some advantages over gasoline to be sure, but as with most things, there are some tradeoffs.

In the part of the world I live in, everyone heats their home, buildings etc with natural gas, of which propane is a significant constituent of. It is starting to be much more widely used. I grew up n the heart of an oil field and when I was young they just burned all of the natural gas off!

Not anymore thank goodness.

Regards,

Doug

Doug,

I just threw Col's engine in there to illustrate to you that there are at this time thousands of people out there beavering away at an IC reciprocator, (and others too see 'New Engine Design' here on CR4) solidly thinking that they have the answer to the energy conversion equation. I'm not going to adjudicate in any way. I'm only saying this to illustrate that you could work your ass of all you life and then have missed the bus. You need to keep an eye on that.

Cols engine works, it's not theory. It's a four stroke cycle. You can go there and start it up and do something with it. Yes he's having all sorts of trouble raising capital. And this is with a unit that took only 25hrs to machine and assemble from a wheelbarrow full of bits of Al shapes. Do the math. If you can use his engine he's at the stage where he'll give it to you. Intellectually speaking of course.

Are you in prototype at this stage? Are you ready to publish? Can we se it?

Not a lot of inconveniences with using propane, here, and it is friendlier to people than the alternatives. Gotta go, Cheers for now,

stu

I have a question for all, but it seems that you and Doug are the ones that are really working on alternative engines. There was a time when the electrical energy to fire the spark plug was derived directly from the rotation of the engine itself. Now we use the alternator to provide the energy for the electrical energy.

Diesels used to use direct rotational energy to compress, and spray the fuel, today increased oil pressure is being controlled by electronics to do that. And a lot more efficiently.

That same technology can be used to replace the camshaft, and lifters. Just as we are using electronics to vary intake and exhaust timing events, we can now open and close valves on demand at will. No more compromises in camshaft profile. The computer would allow infinitely variable valve events.

How will this affect the efficiency of the ICE?

Re: Magnetos and advantage of computers and sensors in IC engines.

Hi Bob,

My engine could be a Diesel or an Otto. Initially it will be the latter Likewise it could be a 2 or a 4 stroke. Initially it will be a 2 stroke so it has ports and no valve train. I don't use the crankcase for providing compression for the intake stroke through transfer ports and thus don't utilize a gas and oil mixture as most (smaller) 2 strokes do. I'll be utilizing direct cylinder fuel injections and very likely no spark plugs either. So it is getting into a grey area of is it an Otto or a Diesel cycle? It can utilize any type of liquid fuel. It could use fuel that is in the gas form as opposed to liquid, but this would reduce its efficiency and increase its pollutants. So I won't be building nay of these. If someone licences it and wants to go that route it is up to them.

What you are referring to are magnetos of which a simple versions generally found on gas powered lawn mowers. They have long been used in propeller aircraft as they require no other power source so if the electrical system on the plane packs it in, the engine still functions. A considerably advantage in this application.

As to the very wide range of affordable sensors and computing power makes it MUCH easier to monitor the operations of it and optimize the engines operation.

Regards,

Doug

Doug, magneto's were the sole source of ignition on every IC engine, not too many years ago.

Stu.

Hi Stu,

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'not too many years ago'. I've worked on hundreds of commercial mass market Autos from many parts of the world, probably thousands. Going all the way back to vehicles from the late 1940s. There was NOT ONE that had a magneto in it. Though when it comes right down to it, every engine converters rotary motion into electrical energy to do the job.

Hot Rodders started using them because the had higher voltages that the ones with points and a condenser of teh day did and gave better performance,

After some recent discussion on airborne vehicles, I would think that you would appreciate that unlike other systems, that even if the entire electrical system went dead, as long as the engines were still turning, the magnetos kept on providing power for the spark plugs. In such circumstances, I definitely would want to have a mechanical fuel pump or spark would be a moot point.

Bob, All of those mentioned have increased the efficiency of the ICE.

thermodynamics and metallurgy dictate that there are finite limits to that though. the current ICE's, gas(petrol) runs to approx 30% thermal efificency, and the diesel, industry best about 36%. It's the heat that is wasted is the problem. Cooling system, exhaust system, engine surface radiation. If you could get any of those systems to not emit such heat and still have an engine stay together, well the figures would go up. Modern ICE engines run so close to self destruction, it's not funny.

Fancy, sophisticated alloys are just keeping it ahead of the game. Not for long.

The present popular way to take some of the load from the ICE is to introduce another medium to augment power availability. Electrics. Hybrids. Acceleration is ICE coupled with electric. Flattens the torque curve altogether.

Therefore very small ICE/ electrics can perform sufficiently, and get the economy of a small, sophisticated ICE.

Cheers,

Stu.

I would like to introduce what I perceive to be a very useful tool for all...(haven't tried all features yet)

An easy-to-use web whiteboard, that can have multiple participants. At this point, I only see one drawback. Coordinating our visits, in which case we would have to plan our meetings using a common clock.

http://www.imaginationcubed.com/index.php

whatcha think?

Chris

The site is great. But I still can't draw a circle.

Nice That's a bookmark

should work great around here, beats scanning in a sharpie soaked cocktail napkin

for time zones

http://www.worldtimezone.com/

White Boards and Real Time Communications.

Hi Chris,

Nice going.

Did you find out if we can utilize multiple topics with multiple the threads within them by using a blog?

Though as I said, I thought this was a blog. But then I don't have much experience with these.

Did you find out if we can have real time communications? This would be especially handy for White boards sessions, though it would be very useful here for facilitating numerous other things as well. We could always utilize and IRC venue, but there s a lot of things against it and it would be an 'option of last resort' in my books. I wonder if some of the IM's can host more that just 2 participants in a text discussions at the same time?

Not having a tablet or a touch screen, I'm not too sure how well I could draw with my trackball. My ergonomic keyboard has a touch pad built into it. I don't find them to be very effective to start with, but for a white boarding it might be better than my trackball. I don't like using them as all as the often unresponsiveness and lag in them tends to give me motion sickness on top of their other limitations.

You said that you like to work with 'remote' sketches. If we can get the white board to the point that it is realistic to use it, I can show you the suspension geometry that makes vehicles lean into the corner like a motor cycle and rather not out. I'd want to do screen captures though, then trim them down to the drawing and then post them here in a series with a description of what they represent.

There are some 'passive hydraulic' systems for cars that already assist with this. Mostly they are used by people with a camper in the back of their pickup trucks. Some performance enthusiasts have utilized them as well.

Regards to all,

Doug

This is 'Off-Topic' persay, but will be very relevant for some here including myself:

My Vista RAID array packed it in so I booted to XP on another HDD and stumbled across this looking for CR4:

http://www.globaltech.com/

For any body interested in the facts at the root of the above pages of ?

I wrote 146

To which I recived 147

Addressed Hi Lyzine,

And several more; direct and indirect tanties, before I responded.

But I think "Lyzine" well qualifies as "first blood".

Repeated is not an accident.

Read enjoy

Gentlemen,

I've been asked to moderate this thread. Let's put this battle behind us and get back to the discussion on modular vehicles.

Moose

Hi Moose,

I welcome you and your purpose and goal here. I'm only to happy to get this 'temepest i a tea pot' resolved and over and done with and left behind and contnue on with what this is intended to be.

Regards,

DougRH

Parallel or series.

A key conceptual element that takes advantage of efficiency of modular subsystem is parallelism. The efficiencies gained by having interchangeable subsystem is amplified by not making adjoin subsystem become a critical component of multiple others. This is the case for physical connectivity and subsystem connectivity. Any conceptual series element introduce to a modular system should be applied with the intension to outlast or sustain the complete system. To keep series elements from making system failure critical it would be wise to implement redundancy to those elements. Any restriction to service series element will make entire system to become totaled.

Thanks Ray,

This is an important understanding of modular systems. Independence of modules.

I started this thread rather inspired, but have to admit to a bit of disappointment that it didn't go as I had hoped.

thanks for this thought.. totally on point. it helps.

Chris

Thanks Chris

This thread has inspired me a great deal.

I have tried to draw a concept chassis on my Vectorworks (12) program, but hit the wall with my 3D mind. Whiteboard to rough for me as will. I did a week long trial (months back) with 3D CAD (space claim),it would be OK for this, but I don't have it any more. Almost bought Solid Works but need $4k. Can you give some insights on limits there would be with Solid Works in regards to 3D solids to solids interactions? To get magnetic interaction I will need to get COMSOL plug-in @ another $4k as well. The evolution of programs and cost well come together for me some time in the near future. Then a picture would tell a thousand words.

Ray

Cool!

Like many others, I have a design for a high efficiency electric motor in mind that only uses high capacity rare earth permanent magnets and doesn't utilize electrical current in conductive windings to generate the magnetic fields. It only uses external electricity to control the relative movements of the permanent magnets to cause rotation.

Though a linear actuator would also be possible.

I've been trying to figure out how to model it before doing any prototypes.

Out of my budget at the moment, but I'm going to log the info thanks Chris & Ray (< 8)

Ray: It sounds like you are really getting into this and putting some serious thought and energy into it with the intention of manifesting this.

Do you have any sort of a CAD system at all?

If not, it's time you did! Even if it is a low cost, less sophisticated one initially.

Hi Ray,

I have done CNC machining programming and when my health cratered badly a few years ago and I became 'house bound' I started doing contract CNC programming. InHouse CNC programming is preferable for a lot of good reasons, but there was still a niche there where I thought I could capitalize on.

I prefer coding by hand over CAD-CAM software as I can make a better program that is a lot smaller and significantly more efficient that produces better results that includes bringing my 15 years experience and knowledge as a machinist to bear on optimal machining programming.

In house programmers usually only (need to know) one CNC programming language. Occasionally some know 2 and rarely three.

When I started doing it on a contract basis I was faced with the reality of over 2,000 CNC controllers that all have their own specific programming language )< 8) We don't have that sort of interface in place where I can just upload it all into my RAM & CPU as of yet: so CAD-CAM it was.

Like most narrow specialized high end vertical markets, such products tend to be VERY expensive.

During my search for a CAD-CAM system, I tallied up all of the modules for the European defacto CAD-CAM software: a measly € 250,000 Euros and then of course very heavy and significant subscription fees on an ongoing basis.

Your are on the money about the auto industries 'built in obsolescence'.

In the 1950's there was both a British and a Japanese 'automotive invasions'. Both are similar in that they are very small geographical areas in comparison to north America. Thus a 'normal lifetime' of 5 ~ 10 years was ~ 40,000 miles in their home countries (just what IS the metric equivalent for 'mileage' anyway?). Thus in some cases the vehicles were worn out in as little as 2 years. This obviously isn't going to make for satisfied customers with strong brand allegiance.

Unlike the British the Japanese with their longer term outlook quietly folded up shop in north America and withdrew and re-engineered their vehicles life cycles to ~ 100,000 A normal life span for vehicles of the day in north America. The British car outlets for the most part stayed and went broke and one rarely encounters a British made vehicle here.

In the late 1970s, early '80s, the north Americans went too far with 'built in obsolescence.' They were doing things like putting dissimilar metals together for galvanic deteriorations. Some of the 'big 3' NorAm autos literally had fenders rusted used out to the point where they were falling off in as little as 2 years )< 8( I remember repairing one vehicle less than 3 years old that the bottom 6 inches of the rear doors was completely gone!

They had things perfected: about 100,000 miles the door hinges were starting to give out, the electrical switches packing it in.

When the Japanese starting beating the big 3 at their own game in spite of obtaining a significant portions of their resources in north America, two way shipping, refining etc. When the US auto manufacturers lobbying was successful heavy import duties were tacked onto the Japanese vehicles. The Japanese moved into the upscale markets for more luxurious vehicles that were more expensive and beat the Americans out again in spite of the economic sanctions.

Eventually the Japanese started beating the NorAm econo boxes again. The NorAm responded by making these low end vehicles 'lost leaders' for parts.

Given a couple of hours, I had an impeccable record for 'pre purchase' inspections. One that the customer was tight for money rushed me on it and cut it short. The front ball joints on both sides were gone ~ $100 parts and labor. When I went to do it, no separate ball joints to be had for this model Ford econo box that they sold by the millions. The ONLY way to get new ball joints was to buy the complete suspension arms. They even have the aftermarket manufacturers on board. Couldn't even get them there, which was very unusual.

It was not uncommon to have ball joints go that the dealers didn't have replacements for. But the jobbers had replacements for them. Many had three HD rivets holding them on. Grind the heads off and three new HQ bolts and LockNuts came supplied with the BJ. Some were pressed in and one would drive them out and tack weld the new ones in. But NOT on these Ford econo boxes. Repair cost ~ $1,000! Ten time more!

One of the only things that ever stumped me was on the same Ford Econo rattle traps. The inductive electronic ignition module in the distributor that was the 'high tech' replacement for the points and condenser (most didn't bother with changing the capacitor) that cost about $10. The electronic version was over $400 and it blew them out like candles.

The Japanese did this as well. Like the rest of their auto manufacturing, they just did it better. An owner of a large successful Japanese Auto franchise here that I knew went through the manufacturing plant in Japan. This was before they had any plants in America, which likewise happened because of the big 3 lobbying pressure and grease money. Some of the engineering execs were very proudly showing off and explaining how they had gone through a significant redesign cycle (which they tacked onto the price tag with some visible design changes and marketing) just to move the expensive solid state distributor from the side of the engine to the very front of it so that in anything more than a very minor front end accident it destroyed the distributor at $1,000 a pop and even scrapped the block as the housing casting where that the distributor mounted was thinned out and weakened so that it had just enough strength to support it in normal operation. But it would usually break when the distributor got pranged. Fortunately I know some high tech welders that do a lot of aircraft repairs and work with exotic metals and between us I usually managed to save the block without having to pull the engine and had a good reliable source for used parts for this brand.

I think your approach makes a lot of sense economically. "Ground breakers' in new industries and technologies often go broke, especially the ones that are underfunded to start with. In the first 25 years of the twentieth century there were over 25,000 'auto manufacturers' that came and went in north America alone. With the advent of the Otto cycle ICE, every blacksmith became an 'auto manufacturer.'

Blink's approach of sticking to 'off the shelf' proven and readily available components makes a lot of sense for the same reasons.

One major problem that I see being a problem for projects in this whole general field is the lack of standardization. Chris's approach of modularization has merit in that such initiatives may result in ISO standards etc being established that would be a huge boon and make (small scale) production much more realistic and cost effective.

So I guess the question that I have for you is just exactly where you fit into this supply chain? You say that you intend on sticking to component manufacturing. The capital required to setup and operate such an operation is likely to be even higher than that of small scale hybrid manufacturer such as Blink's approach. Though with the amount of time and energy he expends here as opposed to on his own project, perhaps they will put him on their payroll here. Especially now that he has me here to keep an eye on and constantly correct as apparently I am completely ignorant and uninformed on everything that I post here.

Perhaps you are approaching it with the idea of doing the design and out sourcing the manufacturing? The volume vs cost manufacturing curve is significant. Either way, it takes a fair bit of money to get parts produced and inventoried. Unless you are very well capitalized this is problematic. At this stage the market is only just getting established and there isn't really much demand per say, especially in comparison as compared to mass produced autos. This is relevant to 'cost effectiveness' If you last long enough to be around once it picks up speed and there is a significant steady demand, unless you are able to keep a VERY large cost effective inventory in stock, bigger money will likely do and end run around you and cut you out as the middle man.

In spite of the way this may be perceived, I am being supportive in this and NOT trying to 'rain on your parade' Ray. Just a reality check for you. If you don't have an affordable, workable and profitable business plan, what do you have and how will it end up for you?

Given these factors, if you are interested in it; my suggestion would be to pick a specific area and specialize in it and undertake some serious R&D in it and do it REALLY well so that you blow your competition out of the water and are the only 'clear cut choice' when it comes to your particular 'widgets.' Even here, the problem of having your designs copied and robbed is significant. Pretty well the only way to stem this, overcome and survive it is to do it on a large enough scale that you are very cost effective and make a very small markup on a lot of volume so that you beat out all competition.

The other option that I haven't touched on also includes a very high degree of specialization and optimization on a necessary but obscure, hard to find component and stay a small, low overhead outfit and try to find the best balance of inventory feasibility and viability.

GOOD LUCK RAY! (< 8)

Parallel or series.

A subsystem becomes a series element at the point were it joins other systems. That is the reason to make the connection serviceable.

Hi All

A modular car concept needs a better after market network to perpetuate product integrity. With a modular system the consumer would invest more of themselves in identifying choices. An open exchange network could tap into this accumulation of information, from people who appreciate the process and use it. I'm looking for examples of existing open exchange networks (any kind) and/or links to after market auto suppliers (all categories in the discussion). My inspiration came from all general expertise shared in this site. I would like to encourage ongoing interest in hopes to identify some specific auto part connections, that are popular and already exist by after market. The more serviceable connections may determine a desired use for declaration as supported subsystem component.

Thanks

Ray Cox

__________________________________________________________________

This approach does not seem scientific, but I thought I would throw it on the wall to see if it sticks.

Discuss specifications for modular connections here.

Ah yes, an SAE/IEC PUZ-MMFF-17 standard connector!

RE: #492

WOW

I nominate to declare this as official insignia plaque for modular vehicle trying to conform to some kind of connection specification!

Any Second to that?

Oddly enough, I spent an hour searching my old archive drives looking for an image I made back in 2006 that I felt really met the requirements.. the puzzle picture was just another one I had made, that was all I could find. lol.

I had been working on a modular container/trailer system with sliding interconnects.. but I had a close-up of the connection... you will have to squint to see it here, at the front bottom edge.. basically just a C-shape, and a plate would slide in, and lock.

I'm still searching... but won't disagree that the puzzle is a bit more generic and applicable across-the-board. thanks,

Chris

Ray, Doug,

here is another picture that I have been looking for for you two.. tilt-body 3 wheeler. I think its called the Carver

Chris

Geoff Daly has one of these.

Stu.

Geoff Daly has one of these.

Ever driven it Stu ?

Or were a passenger on it ? !!!

If so, what was it like to drive.

Doug,

No to both. I do know that the 'road going' version is fully enclosed, hard bodied, w- doors, windows etc. To my eye it's quite handsome. The seating arrangement is tandem. Think Messerschmitt, Gaia, et al. Google "Vanderbrink Carver". There's lots.

The one in Chris' post is being driven hard. They only lean as much as a regular motorcycle. And, of course they're easier on the knees.

As far as aircooled cycle motors having a short life, yes, it's mostly true. I've friends who have put 200,000km on BMWs, both boxer and inline. Not saying that the Japs aren't as good, but they do attract the dickhead riders more.

If one was to ride one of those big hp sgreamers decently it'd return good life too. Not, unfortunately, as good as cars though, and there's a fundamental reason for this. It's temperature management. Aircooled motors don't have any. Add watercooling and temp controlls and you get better life straight away. The working parts of the engine are always at their optimum-fit temp. Lube oil is at the correct temp too, so as to be better able to do it's job.

Mr Honda, early in his career was a champion of air cooling for all the reasons,mainly simplicity, plus, he said all engines are aircooled. Well, they are. Even the coolant cooled ones. Once he learned that his company was behind the eight ball, as far as longevity, noise, etc, is concerned, he soon publicly changed his stance. The Honda 9 was about the last of the aircooled cars.

The rest ,as they say , is history.

Cheers'

Stu.

click the smile

Well it's certainly interesting looking Garth. But alas clicking on either the smiley face nor the picture does anyhing.

Doug,

Google: Bombadier Recreational Products, and then Can Am.

That's what it is , a Can Am 900. Leastwise that's what it's called here.

Stu.

Very popular round here

they don't lean

much more stable than a 2 wheeler or a single front wheeled trike

got a good slide characteristic

with ABS & traction control

basically a goldwing that won't tip over at a light

here's the link again

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=can+am+spyder&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGLL_enUS370US370&ie=UTF-8&aq=0&oq=ca

the concept
is much more recreational than the alleged thread

try again

No to both. I do know that the 'road going' version is fully enclosed, hard bodied, w- doors, windows etc. To my eye it's quite handsome. The seating arrangement is tandem.

Hi Stu,

I could see that some of them looked 'mostly enclosed' but was completely unaware that any of the 'Carvers' were 2 seaters. I'm glad to hear it as it makes the vehicle much more utilitarian. I also like the visual aspects of it.

I am wondering what sort of setup they use for allowing the 'single wheel' related structures to lean and how this is controlled?

I like the 'smart car' for its 'micro' aspects and efficiency, but would only buy a four seater which they are strongly moving away from. They were talking about dropping the 4 seater all together an may already have done so. Regardless, only the 2 seaters are imported into Canada.

Air vs direct Liquid cooled IC engines:

Thanks for the info and the confirmation.

I'm aware of some of the implications of not keeping ICE within a fairly tight 'normal' temperature range.

Even the ubiquitous VolksWagon engines finally gave way to utilizing liquid cooling. Their air cooling was always problematic.

If I'm ever able to build the engine design that I came up with, though it is quite possible to be either a Diesel or SI, 2 or 4 or 6 stroked and air or liquid cooled; the prototype and hopefully even the production models will be 2 stroke air cooled with a dry oil sump and the oil be temperature controlled and cooled.

If I get to the point where I have the working 2 stroke prototype, I'll likely develop the layout where by half of the cylinders are 'normal' combustion cylinders and then the other half being 'steam cylinders' to significantly improve the engines efficiency and harness some of the very considerable amount of the heat energy that is normally just wasted.

I'm still wondering what to utilize as an 'antifreeze' for this though. I want it to be something that like the water in the final exhaust, it can be captured and reused as opposed to evaporating off or being ejected through the exhaust system.

Regards,

Doug

. ..tilt-body 3 wheeler. I think its called the Carver

I can see why they call it the "Carver'

The one you show definitely looks like a racing version.

But in the other links they look like street versions.

I can see it being good, efficient personal transportation that would be cheap to operate. Though as with most things that there aren't a LOT of them yet, parts tend to be quite expensive.

I wonder if they would be any good in the winter? It looks doubtful to me.

I wonder if they have any that are more completely enclosed with heat for winter?

It would be good for people that don't want the inconvenience of a 2 wheeler that easily tips over when stopped. It has a fairly significant angle lean similar to a 2 wheeler. It would take some getting used to for more timid drivers.

The low slung recumbent configuration makes for small frontal area which helps, especially at highway speeds.

Any time I have thought about riding such a small, LOW vehicle in amongst 'regular (urban) traffic', I've always thought that I would have one of those really long tapered fiberglass 'visibility aerials' with the little triangular flag at the top with both the stalk both and the flag being 'day glo orange' for visibility.

Most (air cooled) motorcycle engines don't have a very long life cycle.

Stu: Any idea if this is (partially?) because of the 'Air Cooled' engines or are this way because they design and build them that way on purpose?

(Fire Department here for a carbon monoxide alarm!)

The picture of the three wheeler is tilting more than the front wheel would indicate it is going fast. Must be a zoom lens. Other wise he would be falling out. Do you think he has a seat belt or is the net for that? The enclosed model could have arm rest. At second look, I see he is sitting low into the frame for solid purchase. Not much braking wheel up front.

Nice picture Chris

This picture reveals a lot by not having the skin. At third look, I see the front wheel does not turn at the swing arms. Does the rear turn as it tilts or something independent of tilt?

On a conventional motorcycle, the control of having the bull by the horns, lets you think you have control until your foot pegs drag. I'm not sure were the feeling of control would be on this type of vehicle. The since of control might be from having the rear grab, as the rear turns and the butt pushes down.

OK, now I want to ride one. It might feel like a rocket!

Ray

RE: #492

A new slogan to apply to a picture.

A picture is worth a thousand connections.

Chris, You need a job? How about making jigsaw puzzles?

Or cutting up countries into states? You could be the official, international state cutter-upper.

Or Continents into countries?

Your iterations are certainly more elegant than those of others thus far.

Getting the bastards to pay you might be the hard part.

Cheers,

Stu.

Chris

I would buy an "official insignia plaque" if it was for sale. If I made them for sell, what kind of royalties $ do you want. First I would need a parts specification. If I had specs, I could make my own for free right? You can make money if you can convince me, I should buy the specs to same time and money.

That's how things get started in an open market.

Ray

light weight

50-60kgs

7-10kw's

150mm's or more suspension

as quiet as possible

a mountain bike with a motor

the suspension would let you travel on most surfaces

top speed of 80-90 KPH

the ability to tow a small trailer, which should have it's own independent Braking

The ability to tow a small trailer, which should have it's own independent Braking.

I rented a trailer from U-Haul once and they had an automated brakes system integrated into the hitch.

The tubing that had the hitch slid in and out a short distance within a separate slightly larger tube that was the trailer structure and thus had a 'telescoping' capabilities like a multi stage hydraulic cylinder as see on dump trucks or it a collapsible spyglass like the sailors in the wooden ship era utilized.

I believe it is called a 'Surge Brake'. When one brakes the vehicle, the increased compression loading on the hitch starts to active a hydraulic master brake cylinder with a very heavy short stout spring appropriate to the load capacity / net weight of the trailer and activates the hydraulic brakes in proportion to the loading on the hitch proportional to the negative G loading of the braking rates: a panic stop or a mild, slight deceleration.

Passive anti-lock brakes would be good. But that brings up the question of how?

For your type of application, I think that the activation of the braking might do better with being adjustable depending on the net weight of the trailer. Though if designed and implemented properly this should be unnecessary.

I wonder if there is an Engineer in the house or are they all in conference like they usually are? You think they are actually doing any work in there are just doing FTD duty? LoL

Proportional electric braking is now decades old.

Just go down to your local caravan ( travel trailer) shop to see it, and they'll explain how it works,right in front of you.

In precis, its a mechanical/ electromagnetic system which is controlled by a proportional voltage from a controller linked into the hydraulic system of the towing vehicle.

Does take some 'nous' (brain) to set up to varying loads tho'.

Stu.

Surge brakes would work fine

I'm just talking about having enough capacity to haul a weeks worth of groceries home

I lived in the city for a couple of years with a 3KW moped, wouldn't quite go fast enough & I could only carry so much stuff on the rack & a back pack... Was a decent people mover, kept me off the bus. which I only took when I wanted get drunk

I was hoping posting a 2 wheeled list [much more finite] would encourage the generation of a 3-4 wheel list