Feasibility Discussion on Modular Vehicles

Hi Garth,

With the specs it's obvious that you are not going to be hauling 500# ~ 250 Kilos around.

In regards to the trailer by your wish list it sounds like you want to go 'Off road' at times?

But with regards to the trailer, if this is so, a 'single wheel' trailer would allow you to go places where 2 wheels allow.

Some down sides to this arrangement.

If going to stick to the 'open' road then 2 wheels would seem to be the obvious choice.

The trailers wold be low enough cost that you could have both if you need them.

So much for the trailer, now onto the easy part:

The electric bike! LoL (< 8)

I have eyed this 2 Wheel electric bike for a while.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s.php

silent!

Ray

the super moto version is $10k, wonder how many recharge cycles the battery is good for

too heavy! around twice what I had in mind

my power requirements could probably be scaled back, depending on the set up

the suspension travel [could probably be less] is so I can use on real world roads, which means large diameter rims.

the trailer is for grocery [& other]shopping, brakes so it wouldn't be too scarry when loaded

more of a mountainbike with a motor/engine, than a small motorcycle

I was hoping to get the same kind of wish list going for the 3-4 wheel product

which will help some of the other issue become more clear

Hi Garth,

I saw a petrol version of what you speak of last summer.

I strongly suspect that it was an Asian model as I've never seen anything else like it before except on TV in places like China. Also because it was VERY minimalistic which I very much admired it for. It seems to me that the motor sat low down just in front of the back wheel. The frame was beefed up in that it's major 'BackBone' was…. hmmm? Not sure what the term for the shape is as it was not oval, but in cross section it was rectangular with a hemisphere on both of the opposing narrower 'width' sides of the rectangle. All one piece and hollow inside of course, but describing the cross sectional shape.

I rather suspect it was 50cc or less as these don't require any licensing in Alberta and this didn't have any lights of any sort which it would be required to have to be street legal here. It was a smaller 'BMX' style frame for an older child, early teen. Though they have these same frame styles for full grown adults. Primarily they put a VERY long and tall upright' seat post and seat tubing on them. Likewise for the handlebars.

But as I said, what really caught my eye was that it has nothing extraneous on it and was entirely utilitarian. Not fairings, lights, fenders etc. It was very much just a 'Bicycle with a small motor on it'. It still had functional pedals like a normal bike. It was not a ''little motor cycle'.

I believe it was a Honda, but not sure about that.

Also I have a 'cautionary tail' about 'surge brakes' that will illustrate a design improvement that is only a very slight modification one but quite necessary as you will readily appreciate once you hear the tail. Will pen and post it for you.

Regards,

Doug

Trailers with surge brakes can buck & get a little squirrly

a little bit of electronics & software would go a long way.

Electric brake controllers are much improved, antilok brake components are greatly reduced in both price & complexity.

I'm imagining a semi passive system, just a bleed & either a simple switch or pressure switch, a timer circuit to sense that the master cylinder is cycling too fast.

Yes I saw Stu's posting on it and he's correct.

Having to bleed the brakes every time you wanted to use it would get old real fast. Thus it is likely that it wouldn't take long and you would be 'taking short cuts' that could readily put you and others in significant danger.

Brakes and steering are definitely NOT places you want to skimp on and need to have in good working conditions at all times.

If you can't whoa, don't go!

As I said in one posting: If you have ever been behind the wheel when you had catastrophic failure of either your brakes or steering systems and you survived it, how long after the failure occurred did you continue driving the vehicle for before you got it repaired?

On a low powered electric bike your might have to add some electronics specifically for the task of activating and controlling the self contained trailer brakes, but as you say: not insurmountable.

The surge brake on the rental trailer that we had loaded very heavily; both for the rating of the trailer itself and the vehicle used to tow it worked all VERY well. No complaints in towing it at all.

How about VW/Bugatti Veyron 3-part module concept?

My preferred material T-6/Ti/C-matrix.

This modular car's basic design/dimensions could be based on an existing car, Audi TT/R8/Merc/BMW coupe.

2-seater base design would be a great start for POC.

All modules could be easily put together within sub-millimeter precision.

This Is 2011 and tools to achieve such tolerance levels are readily available too.

As for the drive train: Full time 4WD

General specs;

1. mid-engined, 300-500 horses - turbocharged, this would then be the aft/power-plant module

2. passenger module: all controls/electronics/etc. - mid-module.

3. FWD/steering/fuel/ute compartment.

Each module could be fabricated wherever the best people are available for such jobs... east coast/west coast/the mountains... who cares!

The motor.

Ha ha.. my favourite;

Let's get away from 'classic' all-in one block approach, shall we;

1. cooling/lube system(dry sump)/high pressure fuel supply(GDI)/DC power generation, shall be transferred to an independent auxiliary-module, powered by its own engine, i.e.: The Main engine(yep, much like a marine propulsion setup.) could be made cheaper and with far better control/precision.

2. 6-cylinder inline, 500-1000cc each.

To fast track such a project, we could;

1. vehicle engineering based R8 dynamics/dimensions

2. Merc/BMW/Jaguar 6-cylinder turbocharged engine-transmission combo.

3. Everything else, i.e.: T-6 frame/etc shall be homemade.

Whatdye guys think?

what did you think about the other 600+ posts?

Garthh,

There're a lot of ideas thrown in to re-design the chassis, i.e.: light weight/simple/manufacturing ease/etc.... but, we have that already....kit cars/amateur builders.

As for the click-in/click-out concept adaptation from portable tool technology(in a bid to make road vehicles more modular)... well, I thought more and more owners actually wanted their vehicles to be Different from everyone else's!

Each car could be decided by its 'mission' requirements.

Imagine;

Based on a two-seater passenger module, we could attach a sports/off-road/street/tour forward and aft end modules to suit each performance requirement.

So, What do we need?

1. Different wheel sets/suspension setup, road clearance for each mission.

2. Passenger module would remain neutral for all applications.

3. Once basic engineering is fixed, changes to fore/aft assemblies would be minimal.

4. Based on (3), module length or module dimensions could be changed at will(!) to suit design parameters.... try doing that to a regular car!

5. In safety... interface could be designed to detach at specified loading, i.e.: this could potentially remove great amount of parasitic momentum from the passenger module i.e.: Instead of 1000kg-whole vehicle moving forward at 200kmh at impact, it would now only be a third of that......... a lot less momentum, hence energy, to deal with.

Imagine a specialist manufacture who churns out only 2-seater module(wouldn't he be Very good at what he does!), complete with full feature safety systems, and folks who're into such concept could buy one and attach it to fore-aft modules bought elsewhere(or made at home) and start rolling in off-road mud!

so the answer is

no

you couldn't be bother to read the rest of the posts

we covered most if not all of the points you bring up

yep, definitely a 'no', should have spelled that out!

Consider this my iteration of the same concept.

if our efforts have no value to you

start your own thread instead of hijacking this one

troll

Settle down Mr G - the kid isn't even up with struts - just 'me too' and buzz-words.

Nothing to see here.

G, don't think I meant it that way, besides, this isn't productive, in any way, to the project.

Much time has passed between my last post and this.... enough time for me to read thru' most posts.

Main reason I rushed in with Veyron in my hand is simply because this Is a very interesting project, something which I've always wanted to get into myself.

Did anyone bring in Veyron/modular engine concept before this?

If what I've posted is 'me too' and 'buss word', what scientific discovery or basic research has been introduced in this discussion?

Aren't we all trying(yes, emphasis on Trying!) to put together ideas and principles which have already been, either introduced or put to use by engineers before us?

How has your labels on me contributed to this discussion?

Can we now get back to getting a prototype out ASAP?

I'm not aware of the veyron being mentioned before.

yes new ideas and principles, and contributions are welcome.

my own intention at any rate is to define reasonable functional modular segmentation of a vehicle, probably for road applications.

For existing technologies, that would include a description of what has been created... so perhaps just include more explanation about the builds.

and while not your fault.. this thread did get significantly taken off track by another person.. which I'm sure, still frustrates some.

so all I can recommend is 'clear communications'

cheers

Chris

Chris,

Copy message on 'clear communications!'....highly wasteful otherwise.

You intention is highly convertible to on-the-road reality, and Veyron is plenty-profit-from-the-project living proof of that !

With Veyron in our midst, we could safely skip POC stage.... saves a lot of trouble and fabrication hours.

What's next Chris, you Are the project director!!!

Do you have the basic parameters ready for Prototype-01?

When is the first T-6 machining ceremony?

"Do you have the basic parameters ready for Prototype-01?"

There have been some great posts here... but I've since had to get a job, which has taken all my time away... so no further progress here. There was one thread that linked to an open-source vehicle design.. which is very interesting too...

I would personally like to return to this post, and work on 'segmentation'. Once that is defined, other things might come together.

I am finally creating a bit of a man cave (garage) with tools, so will get a chance to build more things in the coming months.

cheers,

Chris

Stu,

Serious oops, totally missed your post!

Based on project owner Chris's general outline, I'm leaning heavily on 'modular design' and 'continuous improvement'.

I understand that zero-fossil-fuel requirements - as outlined by the others(can't see that in the original post as a core-requirement), but, going after all those stuffs at the get-go, would definitely be too much for my plate!

i.e.: When the pioneering engineers put the first cars on the road... primary objective was ...well, to put cars on the road, and everything else(efficiency/safety/driveability/noise/pollution) came under 'continuos improvement'... and that's where I'm at, vis-a-vis, modular/3-part car.... focused on getting a 3-part transformer car on the road.

The mostly German marque included in my earlier post is to explore ways to;

1. scavenge parts.

2. borrow engineering ideas from.

3. feel inspired.

4. Pay attention to where they failed and stay away from the 'too complicated' and 'doesn't work' or 'not reliable' stuffs.

"How about VW/Bugatti Veyron 3-part module concept?"

You lost me on the first line. I am aware of the Veyron.. but had no idea that it was part vw, or that it was modular??

or I'm not really sure what you are saying...

cheers,

Chris

Chrisg

Veyron's owned by big daddy VW!

yea, she's made in 3-part sub-assemblies.

and the three parts are .... bolted together!

Veyron has quite a bit of high grade welding added to within it's module..... something which I'm dead against.

Apart from the C-composite module, all other parts should be put through a CNC machine and bolted together, preferably with Ti fasteners..... zero welding.

From rmg21-#608 "How about VW/Bugatti Veyron 3-part module concept?"

At first I thought you were fishing to see if a VW/ Bugatti concept could be transformable into a 3 part module system.

From rmg21-#615 "yea, she's made in 3-part sub-assemblies"

You really found an existing platform for a module car! This is right on point and very significant.

It seems you must have seen one of these babes up close. I would like to see how the sub-assemblies come together under the skin. Do you have a favorite link?

Yahoo

Ray Cox

Yep, I feel the same way about the 'existing platform' bit, to lean on, to further boost confidence for everyone involved in this project too! i.e.: We now know for certain that such a concept can be an astounding success. Creators of Veyron made it in the heavy-wallet segment. Can't we take care of all segments below that!!

I've yet to see a single example of engine/drive train setup along the main-auxiliary arrangement out there. Apart from high end/race cars, how widespread is dry sump system in cars? Even then, such a system shifts lube oil storage away from sump only... everything else is still 'traditional'.

From belt driven everything, some makers have started introducing, electric cooling water pump, electric power steering system, and one or two has electric pre-lube system............ that's about it! (Electric in-tank fuel supply pump doesn't really count... almost all cars have 'em!)

Yet another enabling-technology is readily available to help us along in such an application - plenty of small cc 4-cycle engines out there, chainsaw/leaf blower/paragliding motors...... quite a few rotary engines too - air-cooled!

http://www.uavenginesltd.co.uk/index.php?

id=396http://www.swissauto.com/e/motor/projekt_detail.jsp?ID_Display=20000I
plenty more!

The above concept is applicable to both gas and diesel engines.

Let's get back to the passenger module.... air-conditioning (heating is straightforward.) Let's get away from compressors/all kinds of chiller gases and stuff... let's go TEC.

Yep, Thermo-Electric Cooling.

Chips are getting cheaper, and our adoption of this technology could bring in economy of scale benefits to its production cost even sooner!

As I explained elsewhere, there's no need to concern ourselves with how this vehicle is going to 'look'..... The Creation process would take of that!

Plus

Electric air conditioning and electric supercharging.

BTW, have you had much to do with thermo-electric cooling and heating?

I have.

It's not good enough for the tasks at the present stage of development.

Yep! it works just OK in those dinky little 'fridges and coolers, but you need to calculate the heat load in a typical auto cabin on a hot day. It's massive.

No. You do the math.

Hence the massive cooling plant soaking up many horsepower.

I can see why you are starstruck by the Veyron, but, it's not actually the SOA( State of the Art) that they would have one believe.

For that look to Ford, Tata, Proton, Kia, et al.

Particularly Tata.

Most think that the little air powered trick they have there is a joke. But it's NOT.

We'll find eventually that electric is transitional. And compressed air does have some promise.

It's called thinking outside the box. Completely.

Start with a fresh sheet. No oil. No exotic metals (pollution plus finite limits on quantum).

Totally renewable energy sources ( ALL of 'em)

Look to history for clues.

Cheers,

Stu.

there will be oil used

it is excellent for lubrication

how transitional electric is will depend on storage technology

regeneration will become more common

& finally

http://www.local-motors.com/

TEC... not as efficient as gas based system, i.e.: COP.

Agreed, but, I did suggest we 'contribute' towards such a system's economy-of-scale production cost, by adopting and introducing its wider use.

In a typical hot summer, can we safely assume the cooling load to be abt. 3500Btu, which is approx. 1kw?

http://www.tetech.com/docs/AC-194.pdf

2 or 3 of these units could easily cool everyone down!

Let's not forget, we could use TEG(Thermo-Electric Generator) to convert exhaust gas heat to DC power, improving overall thermal efficiency of this setup!

And with athermic/tint, cooling load could be even less.

Should TEC prove too expensive, we could still use DC compressors, the continuously variable type.

http://www.masterflux.com/links/

http://www.evworld.sg/GCAmain.htm

Then again, an undertaking of this nature isn't a Purist-Project, vis-a-vis, energy efficiency or 'green-ness', but the general intent is, and we should get there... eventually.

TEC for the lube oil tank?

Heat load isn't high and high delta of TEC makes for a very compact cooling arrangement.

Electric supercharger?

http://www.aveox.com/Products-Brushless-Motors.aspx

http://www.lehner-motoren.com/

Biggest problem is high rpm motor of suitable power.... can't seem to find one!

...but, I'm a turbo fan!

Why waste all that high energy gas coming off the engine.

Well, we could argue endless on the ultimate energy storage medium for cars.... but, I keep seeing old ideas coming back due mainly to today's available manufacturing abilities or material or clever adaptation.

And someone, somewhere is gonna argue how energy needs to be expanded Anyway... to convert it from one form to the other!

Hi rmg21

Yup, you got bit by the modular tinker toy. Modular by concept allows one to conceptualize piece meal. Inter-changeable sub system would need highly refined parameters, to meet the multiple possibilities of such diverse approaches. You are very creative and have a lot of ideas. Can you help me with some of your terminology and abbreviations?

It was posted back some time ago, a comment of Torsion design. This comment had a profound impact on my ideas of comingling subsystem. Modern cars have torsion stiffness do to unibody design. Four wheel vehicles have this added challenge that needs appreciation. Three wheel vehicles may have fewer requirements for torsion requirements.

Sub systems coupling parameters will be key to the viability of modular designs diversity. Can you through some of that creative power in this direction.

True to the cause

Ray

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Where there is a wheel, there is a way.

Hi Ray,

that's it... piece meal attack to undo the kinks!

highly refined parameters?

Do you mean problems with sub-assemblies coming together?

Not necessarily, module maker's could still make what they want, they best way they could, and if they don't fit the buyers assembly limits, all we need is an adaptor......... all kinds.

To me, critical areas or design focal points are 3, with the passenger module placed right in the middle, vis-a-vis, criticality.

i.e.: both fore/aft modules should be ideally designed around the main-module.

I believe that as this craft takes shape, based squarely on this modular-concept, its aesthetic needs would take care of itself.

Much like most function-critical machines out there, like fighter jet/heavy equipment, etc.... function comes first and general 'looks' evolves and somehow gets naturally factored in in the end.

Double wishbone is widely accepted as the best suspension geometry. And let's assume a maker out there makes a fully self contained front end based on his best-engineering-practices approach.... which could be one of many designs.

All that the end user needs to do is insert a 'spacer-box' between the main and front modules... -do- the aft, except in this case, engine-gearbox needs would have to looked into.

btw;

POC=Proof Of Concept

Ti-titanium

From rmg21 -#619 "Do you mean problems with sub-assemblies coming together?"

Response to rayacox-#612" Sub systems coupling parameters will be key to the viability of modular designs diversity. "

I'm referring to the multiple stresses developed and transferred to subsystem thru the connections. For instance, a cantilevered force with an added twisting force can cause stresses in unexpected ways.

Identifying stress parameter at the connections and beyond to anticipate a balanced system. Implementation of torsion bars can be added or upgraded to accommodate a variety of handling requirements.

Keep in mind I'm not an engineer, I build structures with wood. Wood is not an engineering medium, so redundancy is used to stop the propagation of a single member failure into a catastrophic failure. A torsion bar seems to be redundant but it is one way to allow for variations in the suspension.

The cab subsystem might need an upgradable framing system to allow for variation as will.

Smaller variations will yield better refinements and fewer redundancies. Less is more(light). More platforms however will give the modular movement a place to dance.

Thanks for bringing the VW/Bugatti 3-part module concept to the dance with.

Ray

1. Quality mating of both interface areas, to transfer all loads both ways, i.e.: to turn the 3-part module into a single rigid frame, is a must... machines to get the required quality is easily available.

2. Mechanical strength for each module is a straightforward challenge.

3. FEA?

4. Let's assume we have 6 anchor points at each interface, what if we attach strain gauge/load cell to measure actual loading at all 12 points?

"Wood is not an engineering medium"

really?

Hi Chris

"Wood is not an engineering medium" Good catch

All aspect of engineering are used to promote good home building practices.

Should have said "Natural wood uses probability of failure to determine properties"

Natural wood and a occasional Knot

Non-engineered wood (natural) products have knots and grain variations. Timber species available for market and the grading for volume milling is another factor. The dimension and connection are what we have the most control over regarding natural wood construction. Building methods also allow for these inconsistencies.

A variation in nature's creation of wood is likely to resemble; a diverse approach of individuals, creating a modular automobile. The need to drill a hole where it should not (knot) be is also possible.

Thanks Chris for pointing out that my statement was short of my point. It is the "knot" that is not considered for what I was referring.

Here is a link to Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron

I see why rmg21 likes this car.

Rayavox... ain't she a babe!

1. great looks.

2. superb concept.

3. amazing attention to detail.

Apparently, those guys spent five years Engineering that masterpiece!