Stray voltage and unhappy cows

There more variables than I can state in this small space.

I need a starting point.

The use of a ground rod at the service entrance to this building is my first question.

general a ground rod is not used, only in speical cases a ground rod can be installed.

I,m not clear on the special cases???

Bonding is the next step and after that installation of a equipoential plane. Not sure how to bond to the wooden posts to a equipotential plane?

As far as protection, I am not the one to ask. As far as special cases, I do not know where you heard it. but that may came from be unsure and hope. Ground may not hurt, but it may not be an answer, and ussualy what that can do is just reduce the amount of volts.......who knows.

Check out the hyper-link I posted earlier for the other thread. there is a video within those posts that can help, as well as contacts.

Codes and regulation will not necessarily cover it. It can take along time to define it, and then write a code or regulation about it. That will not help you now. The farm will whither before that. Nor will any electrician, or electrical engineer. You need a specialist.

First you, if your friend ships milk, have them talk to their area field man from the plant they ship the milk to. they sometimes have programs. This is for the plants best interests, they care about quality, and you can not improve quality.....ie crap in crap out.

Also have them look into you local agriculturalist extension agent Thats what they are there for.

And do any other farmers in the area are they experiencing this, keep in mine, if the power company finds out your poking around (2) things could happen. They begin looking into it which and be good or bad, or nothing and they hope it goes away.

That would be a start.

I am sorry, but this is all I can do for you.

good luck,

p911

An agricultural extesion instead of a licensed electrical engineer? do you really expect me to believe that some guy training in crop science or such is going to know much of anything about electricity beside where to plug things in and such. Plus Ag extension do not carry licensure so there is no legal recourse if they screw everything up, and they can not legally deal with any of the power systems engineering that may be required (unless of course they retain a licensed electrical engineer as a subconsultant and just charge the 155 mark up for having him work through them). In my opinion, your best bet is to find a licensed electrical engineer that deals with Dairy Facilities design, they do exist.

do you really expect me to believe that some guy training in crop science or such is going to know much of anything about electricity beside where to plug things in and such.

Not the point, but a source for contacts. How do I know, we had stray voltages. But I should have used Veterinarians as a better source of contacts they also would know of other farmers having simular issues.

Otherwise my respect for those agents are no more than a Hank Kimbal...also from experience.

By the way.......they can screw up a watershed project and still walk away and leave the farmer hold the bag of S#it they created.....also from experience, they are a government employee, and you can not sue the government.

your best bet is to find a licensed electrical engineer that deals with Dairy Facilities design, they do exist.

Post #5 third paragraph. Also from experience.

I like to add RCE,

Back in 79 we had a herd producing 65 lbs/day. DHIA tests, Not bad but could be more. Because the cows were seemingly on edge and jumpy. Our somatic cell count was through the roof, warnings from where we shipped our milk to, stating that if we failed (3) tests in a row we would be kicked off Grade A. The sphincter muscles on the cows teat was being exposed. This muscle is a line of defense against infection.

The cows avoided water in the barn. How can we tell, when we put the cows out after milking, they would all drink. They stopped doing that.

We traced the stray voltage down somewhat to the electrician, that grounded an item on all things, a water pipe. This help but still had problems on herd health.

We were barely hanging on and cringed every time when the tests from the milk shipped to the Co-op came back.

We then had an expert come that specialized on Dairy Facilities design, these are not independent, but at the time worked for designing Dairy Facilities. They did not have independant specialist at the time.

they looked at the system, run tests, put meters on our current milking system......the results. We needed a new pipe line and milking system.........$65,000 at the time. nothing else we could do.

We had a De Laval system. They left us (2) Surge milking claws. for us to try. And they said we would love it. We did......it milked the cows about 2-3 minutes faster then our De Laval's. and within days the cows we were using them on, the problems cleared up. As farmers we started to examine the differences. we noticed a small whistling from the surge claw and when we look at our De Laval's claws there were none......after a closer look. the De Laval's air check was plugged. we took it all apart and replaced the part. With in a week the problem was cleared up, and the following month we were getting quality premiums for the milk shipped.

Do not know what your experience is RCE, and I appreciate your input

But what happen to us, I do get very stand-offish when confronted with a pencil neck engineer that tells you need a new $65,000.00 system, because the tests he took, tells you it does, especially when he never milked a cow before.

And when I hear dairy farmers are having problems with herd health and stray voltage, I'll detail my experience in the hope it helps.

And as you can see, the issues we had wasn't one single problem. but it was a compounded one.

p911

And your problem had nothing to do with stray voltage, did it? It was a problem with poor maintenance of equipment by operators. I would have suspected something other than some stray low voltage if the sphincter muscles were being exposed (or any other tissues that should not be exposed), and probably looked at something with a more direct impact, even if those other possible causes were due to operators errors or improper maintenance. I suspect that if you had not jumped straight to retaining an electrical engineer to identify a electrical problem you felt adversely effected your cattle, but properly first inspected your own management and equipment, you would have identified the problem. (It is kind of like going to NASA to investigate adverse tidal impacts on your cattle, when it was your milking machine operations.) An electrical engineer is only useful when you have a potential electrical problem, i.e. stray voltage. It is very apparent you did not even understand your own milking equipment's proper operations & maintenance at that time and rather than looking into the simplest problem for a solution, you conceived of a much more complicated issue as the problem. In essence you could not believe you did not know how to properly milk the cows, so you jumped straight to hiring a engineer to handle a stray voltage problem, which you already indicated that you had identified as a problem through hiring an electrician to conduct some testing of your system. Obviously, an electrical engineer is not going to understand the biology of cattle, but you tell him you have a stray voltage problem and you need a set of voltage parameters in the area of your cattle, he can address that. This happens in wastewater, water treatment, and solid waste facilities a lot also. now if you just want someone to go out and investigate what the source of the problem adversely impacting your cattles milk production is, then go to a dairy expert at the local university extension. If he identifies stray voltage as a likely problem, then go get an electrical engineer and pay him to investigate the stray voltage issue to see if it is valid, then design a solution. (Notice you went from electircian to hiring a designer to resolve the issue you identified, skipped the have a specialist identify the problem, the cheapest route can frequently cost you more in the end.)

And your problem had nothing to do with stray voltage, did it? It was a problem with poor maintenance of equipment by operators.

No, cows were on edge because the electrician who was certified, but his helper that grounded to the water pipe wasn't.

As far as maintenance of the equipment, I have to agree with you. We never experience this with the faulty check/bleed valve. Thats why we hired experts at the time to come in and evaluate the system. That actually concluded nothing could be done.

I would have suspected something other than some stray low voltage if the sphincter muscles were being exposed (or any other tissues that should not be exposed),

Yes, you would, we did also. Remember or fyi, stray voltage tenses up the cow where the cow will not let their milk down.....You have to milk the cow out, or it will dry up. Result, over-milking and stress on the tissues.

As far as jumping as farmers we do not have luxury of systematic trying something wait to see the results. All things happen concurrently. A herd that drys off earlier, you are off the farm by years end

but properly first inspected your own management and equipment, you would have identified the problem.

Those are easy words spoken.

I know I didn't state it, but we did. That is the first thing farmers looks for is operator negligence. But like the OP stated they are alot of things he can't post because of the time. As far as maintenance, our bacteria count was not excellent but was very good. which is acceptable, and I believe would have gotten a premium for it if it wasn't for the (SCC) somatic cell count. We isolated the cows by doing a California Mastitis Test (CMT)

After we went through the whole system including those check valve, and could not find it. Could only give visual check. So the as known maintenance thats when we called in the "Experts" some people have so much faith in. They could not find it either, and they specialized in milking equipment....which was the problem.

They found nothing, but the answer was a new system. No We found something and the answer was a $0.57 part. This was brought up with these experts, and they said they never experience that before. Could be the truth..... They thought we were not going to pay their fee because of the pitch line of their test equipment will tell them everything. The were very surprise that not only did we pay them, we bought the (2) Surge mini-orbits milking claws from them.

Because even though We found the problem, Technically if it wasn't for them loaning us the claws, we won't have found it. But the experts and us learned from it.

Don't stray away, from stray voltage. On a farm when you are dealing with the health of the animals they can and are compounding issues.

It is very apparent you did not even understand your own milking equipment's proper operations & maintenance at that time and rather than looking into the simplest problem for a solution, you conceived of a much more complicated issue as the problem.

Neither did the experts...where are you going with this? And as a problem solver, it is usually the simplest issue the wreaks havoc. Why, because it is harder to find the simplest problem. There is no sparks, rainbow or mushroom cloud with an arrow pointing over here.

(Notice you went from electircian to hiring a designer to resolve the issue you identified, skipped the have a specialist identify the problem, the cheapest route can frequently cost you more in the end.)

RCE, again I'll explain to you, back then when we had the problem. the specialist were not independent or not available like they are now. They worked for facility designers, because at that time little was known about stray voltage and as an independent would not put bread on the table for them.

After that, we integrated that in our maintenance schedule. And share with our neighbors as well.

One more thing, about farmers, even if they are taking advantage by some "experts" that cause them harm. They rarely retaliate legally. Why? All they want is to get the problem resolved.

Any other issues I would be happy to answer it, but I think I pretty much address your concerns, and hopefully we all learned off it.

p911

One more thing about the stray voltage.....we still had voltage that showed up on the meter, these experts could not trace, but the cows had settled, so it must have been in the tolerance level.

At the time we made a business decision, based on a number of factors. That decision was leave it and move on.

Here is a question for you. Should we have addressed it?

p911

Probably not since that doesn't appear based on your own statements to have been the issue that was causing a problem with the milk. As you indicated the problem was actually with a clogged air release valve on the Surge Claw. No matter how extensive you felt the operation and maintenance review of the euqipment was, it was obviously not comprehensive enough of a program. Also you should note that in your own statement you yourself later identified the maintenance issue in the claw, by observing the performance of the new one you utilized, which is indicative of improper maintenance on the original due to improper training in such. You heard the air release on the second when operating properly and it occurred to you that this is a new sound we have not observed before. Well this means you did not understand your equipment, as obviously your milking equipment experts also did not understand the equipment operations. The stray voltage as it turns out in your own story was an irrelevent extraneous red herring used to detract from the real issue you had. Simply, your Surge claw was not being properly operated, you did not know how it should operate, you hired some distributor who also did not know or did not accurately identify the problem, then they gave you a different Claw that was operating properly, you discovered something about the operation you did not know before, and went back to investigate your previous equipment and found it wasn't operating correctly and knew what was wrong with it. It is a good example of how proper O&M can get overlooked as a potential cause of problems, and those who operate and maintain the equipment/facilities would rather look into more complex design issues as a cause. Your sprinklers dont work, then the problem must be the water conveyance system design, rather than you forgot to turn the valve on.

Probably not since that doesn't appear based on your own statements to have been the issue that was causing a problem with the milk.

No, post #29 second paragraph....I believe that was my own statement, but there were a number of issues going on concurrently.

Remember RCE. there are a number of issues that happen simultaneously. If the stray voltage never would have developed putting a strain on the herd. The cows may never have become sensitised to the faulty valve. The stray voltage as bad in its self was the trigger.

The stray voltage started it all, the faulty check valve, only became an issue after the cows were weaken from the stress and strain. Maintenance issue not any more.

No matter how extensive you felt the operation and maintenance review of the equipment was, it was obviously not comprehensive enough of a program.

First thing we did was questioned our practices. Not having being on the farm, The milker was getting blamed for it for not knowing how to milk. The milker had over 10 years experience milking if you count that he started milking at 12. and never did he have a problem before. This kid was trusted that he was even called upon to milk the neighbors cows if they went away. Or maybe you would like to address that, while your add it get child labor laws into it.

You show me a person the can predict all possibilities of issues and avoid them, I'll show you a liar. This never happen before that was known.

To put it in a form that you might be easier for you to relate to.

Lets say, Pete had a heart attack from stress and hard work, but nothing is said about the 6 Big Macs a week he eats from the last 12 years, as well as other high cholesterol intake. Or the other way around.

This case the stray voltage triggered a number of problems, that never would have come to light because it stressed and weaken the cows. Bad maintenance, yes if we would have known. Bad instruction/Training or retention. who knows.

by observing the performance of the new one you utilized, which is indicative of improper maintenance on the original due to improper training in such. You heard the air release on the second when operating properly and it occurred to you that this is a new sound we have not observed before. Well this means you did not understand your equipment, as obviously your milking equipment experts also did not understand the equipment operations.

That is a wide paint brush you using, but you are correct.

When we replace the check valve. it whistled, and you could hear it when you had your ear up to it.The new claws you could hear it 10 feet away even with the ambient noise in the barn. And that is why as I stated earlier that you should be careful with the term experts. Bad maintenance, no. But I would plead ignorance. But we were not arrogant.

And the experts.......they were the best at the time. I would have called them experts.

Like all processes it is a learning experience. I have said this in the past, your worst experience is usually your best.......but it may not seem like it at the time.

Now I understood the op about the limited information because of the time. And I have time. And if you still have and I don't have a better word but the meaning would be along the lines of "arm chair solutions". I would be more than happy to address them and refer back to them.

Don't get me wrong RCE, there are alot of things that you bring up, that sometimes I will assume. And I enjoy address them. because there is one thing, there is nothing worse that seeing dairy farmer under stress, because he does not have a solution to why his cows aren't milking.

p911

Interesting.

Experience such as these actually is what gave me the foundations to troubleshoot not only maintenance issues, but performance issues as well, which at times can be the same.

Correction: generally a ground rod is used, only in speical cases is no ground rod installed.

Actually think this sort of thing has been discussed more than once.

Looked a bit at the link to the other discussion, and really I've seen homes out in the country with mains grounded boxes, and homes in the city entirely dependent on the service companies neutral here in the US.

Interesting thought about heat tape. How would that do it?

Ungrounded plug in a half buried outlet?

Wet earth?

Could someone have grounded something to the plumbing?

Loads reported balanced, some breakers off. Just little reads.

Let us know how it turns out.

Interesting thought about heat tape. How would that do it?

Don't know, I just said it may be a clue. just look into it.

as far as your other bits.

Ungrounded plug in a half buried outlet? Wet earth? Could someone have grounded something to the plumbing?

good clues.

On a farm, I seen all of these.especially on replacement plugs on extension cords, ground not wired properly, or ground prong missing all together.

Or even exhaust fans motors.

reread it and thought it would be good to ground the building.

Probably a good idea anyway. Frankly I thought you grounded metal buildings as a matter of course.

Please remember guys my work was all sort of specialized as a film electrician where I could pretty much see everything.

Hardly ever could I keep perfect balance for long, as there were always changes.

The condition of the ground and the neutral and attempts at balancing phases were all for me.

(All I needed was an old analog Amprobe.)

Hits only happened when it was really wet and genny operators depended on the chassis ground, that would somehow be overwhelmed calling for spikes.

Seen guys get shocked when the ground wire came loose inside a light, and they were standing on wet carpet.

Sometimes seems you out run the service neutral ground.

Crossed my mind to wonder why many of the breakers were turned off, and if that was for sure, as maybe one was half cocked, or had fried at some point.

Still, don't see what difference that would make?

Long as the balance is good, and the ground is good and the neutral is good, ought not be a problem.

Is there an electric fence transformer plugged in run past touching a metal stanchion, or the building somewhere?

P.S. Driving ground spikes with a Bosch Hammerdrill sure beats swinging a sledgehammer.

Frankly I thought you grounded metal buildings as a matter of course.

Always.......but, grounding every ten feet?

As I recall cattle can endure low level voltages, and their are some. But when it gets beyond their tolerance level. especial in their drinking water, the cattle will avoid it as long as they can.

Good point about fencers? saw insulators on side of building to keep cattle from rubbing? But this could come from anywhere.

p911

Not ground rods ever ten feet but several ground rods six to ten feet apart connected to the service panel on the building.

This is one of the problems that arise when people like me make a casual reference to common item from a standards or codes reference book and it and is then misunderstood by others who don't have knowledge of the same reference source used.

This is one of the problems that arise when people like me make a casual reference to common item from a standards or codes reference book and it and is then misunderstood by others who don't have knowledge of the same reference source used.

That would be me..... my apologies, I read your posts before, I should have known better, .....thanks for the clarification.

p911

Not a problem.

If I had a dollar for every person who didn't understand something that was common knowledge to me I could probably buy my own private country about now.

I find your comments about power company experts to be most upsetting. I worked for many years as a distribution engineer for a power company. I can assure you that we worked diligently to resolve customer issues. Diary cow issues are, at times, most difficult to solve. Usually the problem of "stray voltage" is fixed on the customer side.

Check the grounding system

I find your comments about power company experts to be most upsetting.

Upsetting all around. Have you dealt with stray voltage? Did you check the link from the post #1? Good video links on the threads explaining farther

Just sharing my experiences. Prior to experiencing this when it occurred to us, stray voltage has been around but little really known or understood about it. It made publications such as Hoards Dairymen, Wisconsin Agriculturist as well as others. With articles of Farmers that shared experiences and what they did to resolve it.

Dairy cow issues are, at times, most difficult to solve.

I am glad that you understand the difficulties. People like look at it through a tube, almost like a checklist then if your lucky, one line item at a time, then group it all in one tidy basket and can't grasp or understand the complexity of problems it can cause or trigger. Because the results of a problem show up in the animal and each animal is different, each animal with different levels of state of health and tolerances. And when dealing with an unknown maintenance issue that erupts only due to and along with stray voltage. Very hard to trace especially with dynamic variables. And then conveying this to a layman on this subject.

Usually the problem of "stray voltage" is fixed on the customer side.

That is the end user. And Usually? Have you heard when its not?

Check the grounding system. Covered

I enjoy these discussions, I feel it does help the OP and I look forward to your input. Because it is good to get all sides of the matter. Still learning.

p911

It may be worth getting the most recent electrical code book and following up on what is the correct earth grounding method for your application.

I would recomend putting in several ground rods about 10 feet apart. code recommends no less than 6 feet separation between the rods. Plus the building should be bonded to the primary earth ground as well. Extra earth grounding is never a bad thing.

Also the source should be suspected of not having adequate earth grounding either due to local soil conditions or an old and or outdated or a possibly non functioning earth grounding system.

Contractors are notorious for putting the absolute minimum requirements at what ever time the systems where installed which means from day one the system is working on the minimum components and quality of materials required.

after reading some of your posts, can I ask what training and degree you may have?

you seem quite knowledged in most everything here

I haven't read up recently on "equipotential ground plane", but as I recall this is exactly what you need in these barn/stable situations. I just searched on this term, and many hits came up (too many to list). Try this same search and see what may be most helpful.

The ANALOG amp probe is a MUST,

Joe in Texas

I don't generally like the all-caps that naive posters sometimes use, but nonetheless I am going to use some now.

EQUIPOTENTIAL GROUND PLANE.

If you want to toast Bossie's teats, or just piss off livestock in general, then feel perfectly free to ignore this.

Tornado,

You are correct, and supported by the fact that what is taking place is Current created by potential differentials, whereby a Equipotential ground plane would negate these differentials.

EGP's are commonly used were there is the possibility for "stray" current. and are used regardless of the construction material, to include wood.

OK

Livestock are many times more sensitive to stray voltages than humans. If they feel electric shock they will stop eating, drinking, going into barns, giving milk, laying eggs, etc. To prevent this problem it is essential that the entire facility is completely and properly grounded and bonded.

We found this out when everyone began installing electric milkers way back 100 years ago.

Yes a ground rod will help. I had a buddy that specialized in litagaiton with rural power companies. He invented a monitoring device for stray voltage in late 1970's. Died in 1990 or so. His name was: Al Beisbier
KETTLE MORAINE ELECT 1251 Fond du Lac Avenue Kewaskum, WI 53040

(920)626-2093. I think the widow is still running a small shop call her and talk to one his crew guys . They had this problem down to a real sicence. Check with the University of Wisconsin extension service in Madison WI. There were white papers he published on the subject they may have the documents.

The problem as I re call was that the Rural Electric Co-opps did not string a ground on the pole and would sink a ground rod for neutral on the enterance drop pole. Not always a good ground all year. This stray voltage problem knocks the hell out of milk production. What ever you do take photos and document the fix then get an attorney

Generally the causes of stray voltage is due to loose or disconnected neutrals in the system.

When properly grounded electrical systems experience stray voltages it is always a good idea to check all neutral connections from outlets / equipment back to the service entrance. Also meg underground wiring for leakage.

After this check the power company pole ground at the first pole prior to the service entrance.

With all this done if you still have the problem have the PC check their connections.

I have had that solve the problem.

Check all electric motors ,heat tapes and isolate all one by one or all at one time and check each one seperately after connecting one at a time also find which one is leaking current and install a 8 foot ground rod at pole and be sure to ground metal building and you used 480/277 which is 3 phase correct ? There is a feed back from some where and says DANGER so find it . Good luck happy hunting for I have had to repair things like that.

Check this link: http://www.ronkelectrical.com/blocker.html

Just curious, is there by any chance a high voltage tower or power line anywhere near the metal structure? Ran into this problem many years ago. The flourescent lights stayed on in the pole barn all the time, even when the service was dis-connected! the owner tied ground rods to the building and the stray voltage ate away the steel.I suspect it might have been due to galvanic action. he solved the problem by grounding everything back to the panel then to a delta configuration( three 10'x5/8" ground rods ten feet apart in a triangle configuration. Hope this helps, best of luck.

The PC lines travel with 350 feet of the building and the PC transformers are 90° to the building. The lights are not flourescent. We currently looking at how the lights are wired. The service is 480/277Y. No netural is present at the service entrance panel just the ground wire.

If the the light fixtures are wired 277V we would have a problem since there is no netural. If the lighting is 480V the step down transformer could be a problem.

You should think capacitance and induction. the small voltages you are reading are typical of a capacitance reading for a long AC line.

I'm not even close to an electrician, but I ran into something similar when I built my sheet metal covered pole building circa 1970. There is no plumbing, and this was when the electric only was installed--building empty. I figured it was induction from the electric lines to the metal siding & roof. I grounded the siding in one place and had no more problem.

There are a lot of discussions about this. Search "tingle voltage" or go this link:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/dairy/facts/strayvol.htm

Hammond Transformers makes a tingle voltage filter that might solve your problem, however applying it seems (to me, anyway) to be half science and half voodoo.

The other suggestion about induced voltages from a commercial radio station transmitter requires even more voodoo. I worked with a radio engineer detuning power line towers close to a transmitter. We did a lot of measuring and calculating but it in the end the actual solution was nowhere close. Mind you, the calculations put us in the ball park.

Today I spent a couple more hours on the farm. I found several small single phase control transfomers wired 480V to 240V. The secondary is not grounded to the case of the transformer or switch panel. Both secondary wires are wired directly to fuses and then tied directly to the circuit. I found odd voltages from each leg to ground.(as figured) One of the transformers was wired 240/120 on the secondary with the center tap(x2-x3) tied to ground at the transformer. Both secondary wires are also wired directly to fuses and then to the circuit. The center tap X2-X3 or netrual had a white wire which was tied off with a wire nut. The way the ground wires are tie together is a issue. Several ground wires tie together with one wire nut then daisy chain to the next panel.

The light fixtures are labeled 480V. We did not have a lift to reach the lights to test the voltage at the fixture. Are 480V fixtures common?

A couple of thoughts/questions: 1. What you measured was "leakage current" not stray voltage. It is important to differentiate between the two and not interchange them. 2. What instrumentation did you use for your measurements? 3. Look for a ground fault in electrical equipment and or lighting. 4. Did you measure current on the grounding conductor at the main service? This must be done with a clamp. Contact point measurements can be misleading. 5. Are the neutral and ground bonded? This is required by the NEC at the first means of disconnect. 6. What type of animals are housed in the barn? Are there any health/behavioral issues? dm