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Were There Giants in the Land?

04/24/2010 7:04 AM

It has been said that a picture is worth a thousand words, but are the words the truth? We live in the computer age where pictures can be doctored, and many have been. There was a contest to fake archeological digs. Here are some of the fakes.

Despite all the scams, reports of giant skeletons came from long before pictures could be faked. Some of them may be true. You be the judge.

From Wikipedia under Giant (Mythology):

Aside from mythology and folklore (see Tall tales), remains of extremely tall people have been reported, and documented in the Americas and other parts of the world. These are usually classified as remains that indicate persons of between 7 (2.15 m) and 12 feet (3.65 m) in stature. The book Forbidden Land by Robert Lyman (1971) recounts the following alleged finds:

  • A decayed human skeleton claimed by eyewitnesses to measure around 3.28 meters (10 feet 9 inches tall), was unearthed by laborers while plowing a vineyard in November 1856 in East Wheeling, now in West Virginia.
  • A human skeleton measuring 3.6 meters (12 feet) tall was unearthed at Lompock Rancho, California, in 1833 by soldiers digging in a pit for a powder magazine. The specimen had a double row of teeth and was surrounded by numerous stone axes, carved shells and porphyry blocks with abstruse symbols associated with it.
  • Several mummified remains of humans with reddish hair claimed to range from 2-2.5 meters (6.5 feet to over 8 feet) tall were dug up at Lovelock Cave, (70 miles) north-east of Reno, Nevada, by a guano mining operation. These bones supposedly substantiated claims for legends by the local Paiute Indians regarding giants which they called Si-Te-Cah. However, there appear to be no verified Paiute legends about giants or that call the Si-Te-Cah giants [5]. Some of these artifacts can also be found in the Nevada State Historical Society's museum at Reno. Adrienne Mayor states that these skeletons are normal sized.[5] Mayor does not mention that some of the fiber woven sandals found at Lovelock Cave are extremely large, as great as 7 inches across the toes and over 15 inches in length (size 20 US mens) suggesting persons very much more than average size.[6]
  • A 9' 11" (3.02 meters) skeleton was unearthed in 1928 by a farmer digging a pit to bury trash in Tensas Parish, Louisiana near Waterproof. In 1931 a 10' 2" (3.1 meters) skeleton was unearthed by a boy burying his dog in Nearby Madison Parish.

Aside from in Forbidden Land, we can find verified and unverified examples about the remains of giants:

  • The skull of a youth 7 feet tall, and the partial limb bones of a man estimated at over 11 feet tall were unearthed in 1890 at the Bronze Age cemetery of Castelnau-le-Lez, France and published in the science journal "La Nature"[7] and subsequently reported in the New York Times in 1892.
  • A 9' 8" (2.95 meters) skeleton was excavated from a mound near Brewersville, Indiana in 1879 (Indianapolis News, November 10, 1975).
  • In Clearwater, Minnesota, the skeletons of seven giants were found in mounds. These had receding foreheads and complete double dentition[citation needed]
  • A mound near Toledo, Ohio, held 20 skeletons, seated and facing east with jaws and teeth "twice as large as those of present day people", and beside each was a large bowl with "curiously wrought hieroglyphic figures." (Chicago Record, October 24, 1895; cited by Ron G. Dobbins, NEARA Journal, v13, fall 1978).
  • Patagons of Patagonia in South America, are giants claimed to have been seen by Ferdinand Magellan and his crew. Drake reported only finding people of 'mean stature' although his Chaplain reported giants. However, even before Magellan, a Spanish romance called Primaleón of Greece was published in 1512 in which a dashing explorer discovers savages, one named Patagon, whose descriptions are very similar to those of Magellan.

-S

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#84

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/01/2010 4:54 PM

Well, I have sorted through the photo albums and all the other pictures that I know of. I can't find a single picture of Mesa Verde or anything in the 4-corners region. Murphy wins again. I had an Argus Argoflex camera at that time that a friend sold me when I left school. It took a film size which was hard to get, so I am thinking we didn't have film when we got there. I am left with just describing it to you. I wanted pictures to go with, but oh well.

Mesa Verde borders the Ute Mountain Indian reservation. At 4-corners the Navajo have theirs in the other 3 states. Wherever it was, we followed a boy to the site. If memory serves, the tracks started on level ground for about 20 feet. Then they went up an incline to the left. The incline increased in slope to about 30 degrees from the horizontal. The tracks stopped about 30 feet up. There were many tracks. I dare any geologist (creationist or not) to explain this. The dinosaur tracks were 3-toed similar to my post 71. The human ones were side by side. I don't remember if they crossed. All tracks were very clear, and some were more that 1 inch deep. The human tracks looked like in post 71. To carve the top ones would take a very large and complicated scaffold. It would have had to have been staked in solid rock. No one would go to that trouble, they would do it where it was easy.

I'm sure most of you won't believe it, but I had to say what I saw.

My son found two documentaries on the web. One was called "Walking With Dinosaurs." available from Amazon.com. We couldn't watch the clip, it "is blocked in your region". The other one talks about several mysteries (some related to our discussions and some not), but all very interesting. It is hosted by Charlton Heston (don't jump to conclusions, it doesn't support creationism very well IMO). It is well worth watching.

-S

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#85
In reply to #84

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/01/2010 5:21 PM

thanks for the consideration. :) Perhaps you can find your Mesa Verde location on google.

i actually have that book mentioned in the video "Forbidden Archeology"

I'm not a fan of Charlton Heston since watching Bowling for Columbine, and I think that history, like politics and religion, is such a scrambled picture, that it is virtually impossible to make it coherent. The further back in time you look, the worse it gets.

I respect Zecharia Sitchin for working with the clay tablets, because that is a record made by ancient man. I'm not saying he has it all correct, but I'm also not doubting what he does say. Just because a conclusion is uncomfortable does not make it false.

I'm only part way through the video.. but thanks.

Chris

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#90
In reply to #85

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/02/2010 9:57 PM

i actually have that book mentioned in the video "Forbidden Archeology"

I haven't seen it. Is there something you want to present relative to this thread?

I respect Zecharia Sitchin for working with the clay tablets, because that is a record made by ancient man.

I don't know what tablets you refer to.

I'm also not doubting what he does say

I suggest you change that. If there's one thing I hoped people would get out of this thread is that we should question what we have been taught. That is the only way that science can progress.

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#87

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/02/2010 5:38 AM

To your title "Were There Giants in the Land?" I'd have to say on the basis of the observed process of evolution - the answer is yes.

Giant wombats, crocodiles, elephants, sharks ...... yes.

Makes perfect sense 'man' would evolve in several embodiments - small to large - and the most 'adapted' would succeed and others fail.

We have giants now and they tend to 'fail'. (as Tornado? and/or Lyn? have observed)

On pictures and faking - pictures have always been fake-able. There were people faking 'ghosts' by double exposure about as soon photography hit the streets.

To know if if it's fake or real is harder - but motive is a good clue. $$$$$$ and both bring it. Give me the budget and I'll give you an artifact that even carbon dates to the age desired. Question becomes is it worth the investment. To a well financed organization with a 'reason' - it may be.

To a scientist - it's likely unaffordable and if it got out they'd be finished forever.

A real discovery is what every scientist dreams of. Real brings big reward. Suppression of such is "kinda illogical", so far as the scientists or the typical "expedition sponsor".

Ok so "conspiracy" has to be 'profitable'.

Who could profit?

Fakers obviously as they have no investment in say 10 years of study and tenure - just rip-off and rack-off. Media have. Fake gets a series, up-dates all the way to "exposure". Real is one edition.

The Church is a favorite. But why would it care on this? It would logically prefer 'real' giant proof over false. The only "conflict" is with the biblical literalistic: the night preceding 23 October 4004 BC. <link (4 chris)

Some things you mention however are a worry.

Cubits have always worried me because they relate to the body dimensions of the day. But then again, I just happen to have been 'amazed' at how small armor was in medieval England. "20 inches" is also 2" above what I previously thought a bit 'optimistic' as the biblical equivalent.

All I'm seeing here is: Is it Danny DeVito or Shaquille O'Neal running a "conspiracy" in Biblical Photo-shop to promulgate a baseless collision of religion and science?

I was particularly fascinated by the allegory in the site on "circular reasoning"

"Consider the famous argument of the French philosopher, René Descartes: "I think, therefore I am." Descartes has begged the question here, because when he said "I think," he'd already implied "I am" (or how else could he think?). Yet his fallacy continues to persuade people, over three hundred years later."

The obviously comprehension challenged "teacher" recognizes the end statement in the proposition, BECAUSE he read both!!!!!

If Descartes had just said;

"I think because I think" t'would be circular

Or "I am because I am " (see above)

No, he put proposition and evidence.

How this idiot then says "Yet his fallacy continues to persuade people, over three hundred years later." is beyond oxymoronic.

As said, an allegory.

Unfortunately, neither his or yours is analogous to Descartes

Kyzine

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#91
In reply to #87

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/02/2010 11:01 PM

The Church is a favorite

What do people mean when the say "The Church"? Earlier I pointed out 38,000 Christian denominations (source). I assume they mean the one they belong to or the Roman Catholic. Perhaps Christianity as a whole in some cases.

Cubits have always worried me because they relate to the body dimensions of the day. But then again, I just happen to have been 'amazed' at how small armor was in medieval England. "20 inches" is also 2" above what I previously thought a bit 'optimistic' as the biblical equivalent.

From Answers.com: "An ancient unit of linear measure, originally equal to the length of the forearm from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow, or about 17 to 22 inches (43 to 56 centimeters)." Mine measures 19 inches.

The circular reasoning was a jab in response to him stating the obvious. I didn't read that far down.

How this idiot then says "Yet his fallacy continues to persuade people, over three hundred years later." is beyond oxymoronic.

I agree. You wonder where people come up with this stuff.

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#92
In reply to #91

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/02/2010 11:31 PM

If your nose runs, and your feet smell, you must be built upside-down!

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#93

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/03/2010 11:55 PM

Hi everybody,

This thread seems to be winding down, so this may be my final remarks for the thread. I want to thank everyone who participated. It started out about giant mythology, then evolved to dinosaur tracks, then devolved into a debate about a debate between two paleontologists. Even so, it went better than some threads I can think of. I have been open about my belief in God at CR4. That is a bit risky in an engineers forum, but I took the risk. I didn't think any of you would fly here and beat me up in a dark alley. There were some threads that got nasty though.

These days it is harder to find a scientist that believes in God than to find a good looking woman over 50. I am not alone here at CR4. I have found at least a dozen that have admitted a belief in God. There was a misunderstanding in this thread about my beliefs, but even when you thought I was "the enemy", you treated me with respect. I really appreciate it. You are to be congratulated for your professional behavior! You have set an example for others.

Some have had fun here as evidenced by the laughing and snickering in the background. I tried to add some humor. Most of it went unnoticed I think. I had fun here too. I was like a treasure hunt - looking in the links and elsewhere for "little bits of meat" for the next post. In past years I have hosted threads that were pro Big Bang Theory. One thread had in the title "The Big Bang Never Happened." I didn't host it because I believed that, but because I want people to be open to alternatives. Just because most of the main-stream scientists support it, that doesn't make it the truth. This thread was like that - to make you question what you have been told.

I hope everyone has learned something here - I have. One is that some theropods (such as T-rex and Allosaurus) can leave an elongated footprint using the metatarsus "perhaps during behaviors in which they walked low to the ground, as during foraging or prey stalking." This is a "well preserved" metatarsal footprint courtesy of Glen J. Kuban:

Every thread has a silent majority (those who view but don't post). This thread had a silent minority too. I tried to solicit comments on some controversial material. There weren't many bites. I can think of some possible reasons:

1. You tuned out and left
2. You thought I was a total idiot and thought replying to be futile.
3. You were afraid you would be criticized.
4. You were silenced. (Swayed?) Not likely
5. I am a poor host and don't know how to present material for a discussion.

In thinking about #5, I should have used pictures like the one above. Many of you may not have seen the controversial Burdick footprint that was at the heart of the debate. I was the only one brave enough to make a personal comment about it.

I was ridiculed for suggesting that it might be a Sasquatch print because they are not proven to exist. There are many reports of people who say they have seen them. I don't know of a single report of anyone seeing a dinosaur. Get your Sasquatch footprints here.

Have fun. Regards,

-S

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#94
In reply to #93

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/04/2010 12:14 AM

I'm very open minded, and I think you do a fine job moderating a thread.

This site is for Discussion. Some people don't like to discuss. Some live in a black and white world, and some in 32,000 shades of grey.

Interpretation is at least half the battle when it comes to history, and with the job that we've seen in the last 100 years, you or I can do as well as anyone, in interpreting the data. (well I'm not sure about you..lol jk.)

So I actually rate the quality of your thread quite high. It is educational and awareness raising, and I encourage you to continue. If you take flak from anyone, its okay. Your motivations are sufficient to justify your actions, imho.

You are willing to learn, discuss, and share. What else is there? Nobody is perfect. Nobody needs to be perfect.

Chris

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#96
In reply to #94

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/04/2010 8:48 AM

What he said...it's good to think!

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#105
In reply to #94

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/07/2010 11:43 AM

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the support and also to ER. Since you like ZS, you're sure to like this site. I have a problem with the alien thing. It also suggests that Gigantopethicus is Sasquatch! here come the assumptions

-S

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#99
In reply to #93

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/05/2010 1:51 AM

I have read this thread with interest and note each time you reference something, on further reading, it turns out to be not quite supportive, and you veer away to another thought. I was unclear on your position throughout.

However there were a few things I could not find, your photos for instance , that I think you just referenced to ER, though I am not sure to what end.

"Burdick footprint that was at the heart of the debate. I was the only one brave enough to make a personal comment about it."

If this is the heart of the debate then perhaps this link might be pertinent.

"In other words, evidently the carver unwittingly created the print on what was originally the bottom side of the rock".

But yes, I read your thread, out of natural curiosity. Now I'm just not sure why. So far as I can see there is no conflict between "Faith in God" and "using the mind". Or perhaps the reverse of this is your point. Faith and Thinking are mutually exclusive?

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#100
In reply to #99

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/05/2010 12:05 PM

maybe it is a really ancient carving of the king's foot, and so is just proof that they had bad carvers in ancient times!

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#101
In reply to #99

Re: Were There Giants in the Land?

05/05/2010 3:01 PM

Hi 34point5,

Welcome to CR4.

I was unclear on your position throughout

I took no position, but was judged as though I had.

Your link was from the same guy from the debate. I was hoping to get another opinion, such as yours for instance. Your comment below seems to indicate you think it was carved. That is the first personal opinion other that mine that has been expressed. Note that I never presented it as a real human footprint. My comments w
ere quite the opposite.

So far as I can see there is no conflict between "Faith in God" and "using the mind".

I agree wholeheartedly.

Let me make some comments on your link.

Creationists would do well to abandon the Burdick track as anti-evolutionary evidence.

Whether real or not it would not be anti-evolutionary evidence. To me it would suggest evolution of man from large to small. Someone pointed out that giants tend to fail (survival of the fittest), so that would make sense.

Editor's Note

Don Patton of MIOS was invited to submit a companion paper giving his interpretation of the Burdick tract, but declined.

But in the references we see:

Patton, Don, 1990, The Burdick Track Vindicated!, Dino Trax (newsletter of MIOS, the Metroplex Institute of Origins Science), Vol. 6, June. Patton claims that the rock bed from which the Burdick track came was the Cross Branch of the Paluxy.

The point being that it looks a little slanted as I have suggested before.

regards,

-S

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