Is My Degree Worth Anything?

A degree is certainly worth something, as it testifies that an individual's long-term academic achievements are above a minimum standard; it's a good start.

From their website it appears that the ECSA has been set up by South African statutes to register professional engineers in that country. National and international registration schemes are not new: there is an Engineering Council in the UK and a body known as FEANI across Europe, though there may be a difference in their set-up compared to South Africa.

Is registration with ECSA mandatory in order to practice? If so then South Africa has protected the name of the profession in the same way as a 'Chiropodist' is a legally protected profession in the UK; only a registered Chiropodist is legally permitted, and therefore legally protected, and therefore legally entitled to professional indemnity insurance, to practice and steps may be taken to close down anyone claiming to be in the profession who is not registered, assuming the individual doesn't get sued first.

There is, currently, no requirement as such to register as an Engineer in the UK in order to practice. Hence one finds such terms as "Heating Engineers" being used as a term for the (highly practically skilled) individuals who install home heating systems, and "Photocopier Engineer" for the (again, highly skilled) individual who services the photocopier. These terms often grate with individuals who have done an accredited 3 or 4 year 1st degree course at university and have acquired much additional theoretical and practical experience in various industries before submitting themselves to the hurdle of applying for Chartered (-discipline-) Engineer status with their chosen institution in their chosen discipline. Is someone who looks after a home full-time really a Domestic Maintenance Engineer (rhetorical question)?

So, while registration is not a requirement in the UK at the moment, one finds it is a professional 'benchmark', for want of a better word, to be able to show that one has passed over certain training and experience hurdles. Such individuals find themselves way ahead of the Heating Engineer and the Photocopier Engineer in the employment stakes, despite the lack of legal protection of use here of the word "Engineer". One's subscription to an engineering institution and the registration fee to both the Engineering Council and FEANI are both, of course, tax-exempt, so the value of the registration in before-tax terms is smaller than it might otherwise seem. £165 Sterling is a typical aggregate value before tax, which compares reasonably with the R2000 in the post, and tax relief is applied at the highest rate of tax that the individual endures; if there is a similar tax relief in South Africa to the UK then it makes sense to make use of it. And as with any institution, marriage included(!), one only gets out what one puts in.

If one wants to work in Britain then it is worth checking that one's qualifications, training and experience are recognised by both the appropriate engineering institutions and the Engineering Council, and a few minutes' surfing will provide appropriate contact addresses and telephone numbers. Of course, if one's achievements have already been accredited by an appropriate institution in the home country then it does make comparison and assessment by those bodies that bit easier.

If registration is required in order to practice in South Africa (difficult to tell from the post and the ECSA website) then there is really no option. However, if registration there is optional then one will probably find a resounding "go for it" response from the majority of individuals who subscribe to this forum. Apart from the network of international knowledge, information and support, one's status and long-term career options are significantly improved by so doing, putting one at a distance ahead of the Photocopiers and the Heatings when it comes to career choices, recruitment and of course remuneration.

Next!

I'm from the USA so I don't know if by registering, you mean to go to some official office and paid some fee, and have your name included in a registered engineer book or something similar.

Here in the USA, you do not need to be "register" to be an engineer, but if you want to be a consultant, you'll need to have a "Professional Engineer" License. You can take this professional engineer license after you have your 4 years degree, than practice for another 4 years in your field, then you may qualify to take the exam. Or if you can prove you have over 8 years of practical experience in your field, you may also take the exam. Once you pass the exam, you will be given a certificate of professional engineer (after you pay more fee, of course.)

Don't know if this is your equivalent of registering or not.

MidniteFighter

In the United States, you cannot practise engineering without a license. Licenses are issued by the state in which you intend to practise. You must meet certain qualifications, these vary between states, before recieving your license. Obviously, the license does not make you an engineer, but the license attests that you are qualified to do engineering. Engineers as well as doctors, lawyers, and architects are considered professionals, all of which must be licensed in order to practise in their chosen fields. I certainly would advise you to obtain your license wherever you intend to practise.

OLD F**T,

By practice engineering, do you mean as a "professional engineer", as in a consultant or engineer in charge of a project?? If that is what you mean, then yes you are absolutely correct that you need to be licensed. If not, then I must disagree with you. If you got your 4 year degree, you can do engineering work. You are what the government called an EIT (Engineer In Training). Since you must have some kind of work experience before you are allow to take the professional engineering license, you then must be allow to work as an engineer, do you not??

MidniteFighter

By doing engineering work, I don't mean do the work and signed it. That signature required a professional engineer license. With a 4 years degree, you can do engineering work under someone who has a license, but you can not sign anything that make it offical. Just to clarify my point of view.

MidniteFighter

There is no USA requirement to have an engineering license to practice engineering. Most engineers do not have a license. Each state has it's own licensing procedure. In Texas you get several license holders to attest to your skills, pay the fee and get the license...which is worthless, unless you are going into government service, which often requires a license. I had mine for 30 years and never had need of it.

Hey Claude,

Good to see another South-african here. As far as I know, it isn't a national requirement to register with ECSA but it might be seen that way later on if you try to progress in your field. That would depend largely on the company as well. I'm not exactly certain what SASOL's stance on this is, but it might be possible that they would require registration from all their engineers.

Also, registration just gives you the freedom to call yourself a professional engineer as midnitefighter also mentioned. This is also nearly a prerequisite if you want to move into a consulting field to add credibility to your work. ECSA works hard to keep all the different degree courses in the country at a reasonable level to ensure that nobody can call themselves an engineer (a real one now) without the blood and tears of an accredited degree. In that sense your degree is worth alot more than the money you paid for it even added to the amount you might have to pay to register. Also, you can't register before having at least 18 months to 2 years experience and it would mean writing an exam as in the USA. (I think our model is actually based on the american model, heard that somewhere as well.)

However, I believe that it wouldn't be a problem if you were registered and would like to work in the UK. (I know of several people, some accredited, who have done this and are now practicing engineers in the UK) I don't know of any other advantages you would get from being accredited but I believe the good outweighs the bad. I for one will be trying to register as soon as possible.

Good luck,

Bernard

These accredititations, even though they don't always ensure the best engineering quality, are also intended to protect the public.

It's just sad that an accreditation doesn't:

• Doctors bury their mistakes.
• Managers don't make mistakes - circumstances change.
• If one is an Engineer, and one makes a mistake, it is there for the whole world to point at: The Tay Bridge, Tacoma Narrows, Titanic, Challenger, etc., etc.....

ahem.

Hello Claude.

Welcome to the real world of engineering. Your degree should be seen as part of a specialised tool kit that you use to do your job.

Registering with a professional institution bestows recognition by a peer group that your kit contain the appropriate tools - and more to the point - that you know how to use them!

As far as getting tangible benefits out of membership in return for your fee is less easy to evaluate. Probably things like special rates for members for professional negligence insurance - which is important in this day and age of litigation. The fee is basically a charge for administration - so you get nothing but a load of documents in return.

You do not need any qualifications to practise as an 'engineer' in the UK - but in some jobs such as a gas fitter - you need a license - and you won't get that without demonstrating competence by way of education and experience. In other areas, you will find doors open for members in the work arena for higher paid positions.

What really matters is how you apply yourself and your qualifications to the job in hand once you have got the job. Membership gives you the opportunity to participate in the affairs of things that are of interest to you and engineers as a whole - a chance to meet other engineers - a chance to do something useful - a chance to put something back.

And finally, nobody gives a damn about how hard you worked for your degree. We've all worked hard for what we've got. If degrees were were easy, everybody would have one.

Brunel didn't build bridges, railways and ships to become famous - he built them so people could travel around. He's famous because it was a 'first' and he got it right.

Good luck.

This thing with degrees & university's is troublesome in Australia. Educational requirements to take a university course in Australia are slipping badly, also pass marks are being fudged [ read politically correct]to allow as many students as possible to pass in there particular subjects.

A large part of the student population are foreign this brings large amounts of money to the university coffers, this is a situation where the faculties would not like to rock the boat.

This leads to so called professional people circulating and promoting a lower than required standard of functionality in the population and places of decision making ie, government departments [Would you believe we now have teachers in public schools who cannot handle the English language properly] this of course continuous the rot.

To be quite honest I would rather employ someone who has had hands on trade training and work experience than somebody waving a university degree especially in the engineering areas. Not to be unkind a university or higher technical school training of good quality is admirable if it is a secondary addition to the primary requirement and importantly it must be of the high standard of the old school not the new age fluffy thinking that seems to have overtaken our teaching establishments.

I realise this is a rather broad subject with lots of qualifications which could be tied to the discussion, it would probably be a whole new area to look into and compare different country's and there education standards

"Brunel didn't build bridges, railways and ships to become famous - he built them so people could travel around. He's famous because it was a 'first' and he got it right."

There were many disappointed investors who might not agree with you. No doubting that Brunel was brilliant, and had many firsts, and that many of the things he did worked - and many were so robust that they are still in constant use to this day. But always right - certainly not - and the risks that he and his contemporaries routinely took with the lives of their employees and the general public would have you in deep trouble in today's world. Registration was introduced to ensure that professional practitioners took account at least some of the impact of their actions. Does it work - perhaps?

If degrees were were easy, everybody would have one.

Record numbers of people now go through UK Universities. Some of the course are bizarre , and of very dubious benefit. This is a politically driven phenomena , and denigrates the value of the decreasing number who study Engineering and other 'hard' but valuable subjects. One day everybody will have a degree , but not because of better education. Nobody should be put off studying for a degree because of this , but they should be aware that simply saying 'I have a Degree' will be no use unless the employer understands what Degree and where from. That is an increasing problem for all. Engineering institutes have a vital role here , in helping to establish the 'validity' of a particular Degree by the use of student membership for recognized courses of study.

Stop winging. Just get on with it and do your best. If you are any good they will beat a path to your door.

Claude:

You've done some homework that indicates well-founded suspicion about this local association.

Check with your alma mater's engineering faculty to find out which other bodies you are eligible to register within.

If you are concerned about how your credentials will be viewed internationally, there may be a licencing/associative body somewhere that confers legitimacy on its members, and that will welcome your qualifications for membership.

Mark

Don't underestimate a degree. Regardless of the subject it at least shows you've learned to work and learn.

I'm also an engineer in training and things are looking up. The first few years are all about getting experience and you should take advantage of this as much as possible.

I like to hear that the name "engineer" is being better protected. Here in Quebec, Canada, Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers (MCSEs) have just got the kick in the pants that they can run around calling themselves engineers without an engineering degree to back it. I work in aerospace and know the decisions we make involve life/death/dismemberment...and if I have to shoulder the responsibility of my decisions then I would like the recognition for what I am.

Why would you ask if your degree is worth anything after you put all your time and energy "blood sweat and tears" into earning it????? If you don't know the value of your degree, I assure you that no one else does either.

What were you expecting before you started??? Have you achieved your own expectations? Have you built a foundation up which to build your professional life?

The registration and licensing programs you mention probably do have value but it depends upon what you are planning to do with your life. What kind of work are you considering? What kind of work do you enjoy? Is it about the money you can make? Or is it about the contribution you can make?

Your fears are shared by many who have reached their first professional milestone and are not sure what to do next. It's good that you ask the question and I hope you receive feedback from others that helps you determine what you will do next.

But, at the end of the day, Claude, YOU must answer the questions for yourself. With your degree and early work experience in hand, set a new goal for yourself that you can achieve in three to five years, set the wheels in motion and move on. Yes, you have some latitude to change your mind in the future if you see another path of greater value and reward. But, many choose not to make a decision at all and they muddle endlessly in their careers; do NOT make that mistake.

Seize the moment. Make a life for yourself. You are right; you have worked hard. Keep working hard and do something with your gifts that will benefit others. The money will take care of itself and, more importantly, you will be pleased with the results of your efforts in ways you cannot now possibly imagine.

All degrees are worthless pieces of paper. What counts is what you do with it after you have it.

agree!!!, i've seen many engineers without degree, and i've seen many degrees without engineer......

A mobile is the tool for a social engineer.

A mop is the tool for a sanitation engineer.

A mike is the tool for a sound engineer.

A map is the tool for a civil engineer.

All living dogs are full bloodied. All dogs aren't registered.

Registrations are regulated. All regulations aren't reliable.

Regulations protect the public. Registrations hold members accountable.

In order to sue or be sued, registration is accountable to regulations.

In order to prevail, a judge relies on regulations.

Any employer determines qualifications for each employee.

Employee Titles and salaries are awarded as the employer wishes.

Rules and regulations are self imposed, self administered, self rewarding.

Nobody administers success, nobody limits skills and nobody controls intelligence, self application of skills, self employment, self worth, self wealth.

Motivation is a practice rather that can hardly be taught or learned but certainly can be instilled and inspired.

A body may be imprisioned but the mind can be harnessed and the spirit can be spread.

NASA knows the sky is not the limit of ambition.

NASA learned jealousy can not be contained by ambition.

As Sasol has the one of the highest concentration of PhD Chemists and PhD Chemical Engineers of any company in the world I suspect they may require one to be professionally registered.

To All:

I have been a practicing engineer for more than 12 years at with several companies.

Currently I hold the position of the Sr Mechanical Design Engineer with a US company that manufatures automated machine tools.

Guess what? -Not licensed nor have I actually obtained an accredited degree.

I have however, gained the knowlege of experience, applied myself in multiple disciplines and have proven my "worth" on multiple occasions (as well as hold 14 patents).

What I'm trying to express here is that it is unfortunate that we as a society must regulate and license professionals in order to protect the public from E & O claims (errors and omissions) AKA "Boneheads".

However, although I do agree that it is necessary, it is still sad that we can't define excellance by results.

I would like to add that the best Electrical engineer / programmer I ever hired is currently employed here and basically did it the same way I did and is the BEST I've ever seen.

The status of being a Chartered, Professional Engineer (PE), or Registered has come about because of insurance (which is a good thing). In industry if something goes wrong (Crane falling over, bridge collapsing, plane crashing, and the list goes on) who pays for it? The insurance company does. The insurance companies insurance is the professionalism of the people who are responsible for creating the item (Crane, plane, bridge, etc) to ensure that this doesn't happen. These people are usually qualified engineers. Who insures these engineers are qualified the professional board, who are the IMechE, IStructE, IEE, IChemE and so on (In the US is governed by state).

The people on the board don't need to be engineers, however much this pisses us off, having the potential of a non engineer, telling an engineer he is not a good enough engineer. But the suitability is judged by either written examination or through a mentorship program with an already chartered engineer, with series of interviews review experience that is logged and documented. The review of the exam and interview is just dot to dot, magic painting kind of stuff.

Going back to insurance, if you are working in a engineering field such as marine transportation and for example you are shipping oil platform modules from dock to rig. The company who own the platform will have insurance on that platform (with certain conditions of course). So you are to load out that platform onto heavy lift ship, you will have worked through all of your standard plans in house, and you will then go to the client and present your proposal for approval before work even starts, you'll sit in many meetings discussing every aspect of the load out, and the guy who will be giving you the biggest grilling will be the engineer representing the insurance company. This engineer will be present throughout the whole project from those initial meetings to load out and to lifting with floating crane, only when he is happy will things go ahead. And you can guess that this guy will be chartered up to the hilt. It is his livelihood that rests on this and in some cases his life; if he is negligent then it is on his head, and a prison sentence may result.

People will argue and say it is because of health and safety, human life and all, but that is only because it costs millions to clean-up and investigate a fatality (Ed Norton describes it pretty well in Fight Club). It is also why codes/standards are developed.

Bottom line is it is if you want to pursue engineering, your degree has only just opened the door for you. It is another world out there and it differs greatly from engineering discipline to discipline. Many home bound engineers are unsatisfied with their chosen path; they are restricted by red tape and upper management. I myself prefer the site environment and the freedom that comes with it and the prospects of working into different areas such as Project Management, QC, and the chance of networking. My advice to you is stay positive, never lose the want to learn or better yourself, do not be afraid to move on to new things, confidence and positive attitude are your best selling points. There are many skills you need to be a good engineer and move forward with your career, not just the basic fundamentals. A lot of South Africans like to move abroad for good prospects jobs and higher salaries. Most of the South African engineers I work with abroad were in the UK before, but found it extremely hard to find a job, so moved to other places like the Middle East, since gaining experience, some have gone back to the UK and taken up work in an engineering field there.

My engineering manager gave me some excellent advice and that was to get out and experience as much as you can see different industries and other parts of the world. Now is the time to do it, do not get stuck in one industry too quickly if it is what you want to do you will find out soon enough once you have seen what else is on offer. It is good to speak with your current boss, if you are a good employee for them many will understand, and you will not burn any bridges for coming back at a later date. This is quite common for people now, particularly industrial placement students, who work for a year, with one company, go back and complete their degree course, go out and work abroad for a year or two and then move back to their placement company.

When you work abroad, you obviously have the chance of becoming more independent; can get into positions of responsibility quicker, can climb the career ladder quicker (Higher Pay). It is likely you or other people will see big improvements in areas of overall confidence and management skills. But you can also get stuck into one place as well, so it is important to continue learning, through the new people you meet and keep up to date with the internet, do not lose contact with back home. Your experiences will benefit you greatly.

I myself graduated in Mechanical Engineering almost 4 years ago now, I have a very strong academic background, I did a placement year that was very good experience, but wanted something more field related and active, took my boss's advice, it took me a year to find a job in an engineering field. I almost ended in up IRAQ, missed that by the seat of my pants, and ended up in South America, Asia and the other parts of the Middle East, working in wide range of fields absorbing as much information I as I can and packing away the cash. I have not pursued Chartership any further then the student membership to IMechE, partly due to lack of mentorship programs, but continue to read up and learn on past and present subjects. I am getting ready to move on to somewhere else now, and I know Luck is only the ability to seize opportunities as they arise, sure I have missed opportunities but I have no regrets. The confidence, hard work ethic, enthusiasm, technical knowledge, project and man management skills I have gained will transfer to most industries. And still have the option to go back home and continue my education, with the financial security I have from working abroad.

Good question, Claude, & interesting discussion. I'm registered with ECSA, as it is a prerequisite at my current workplace (as an electrical engineer). The idea is that ECSA works on educational standards on annual reviews, to ensure continuous high standards (I suppose to guard against the issues raised by our Australian friend "garth" above). I'm surprised that they did not visit your university/technicon (though I recall I went to the beach the day they visited us in Stellenbosch - oops!). Talk to your bosses & older colleagues in Sasol - they would most likely insist on the Pr Eng bit for you to do & be responsible for certain design & maintenance work at some stage. There are also certain things that have to be approved be registered mechanical engineers prior to commissioning (lifting equipment, pressure vessels, etc.)

It also tells the industry that you have done that extra bit if you have registered. You can register after about two years, and in my case ( & I expect Sasol too) the company pays for annual registration. You sometimes get a bit of a pay rise too, yummy! However, for continuous professional development (or CPD, now also compulsory for engineers here, as with doctors), it is better to join the SA Institute of Mechanical Engineers or whatever they are called. If you do, ECSA gives you a discount on the annual fee. The discipline-specific institutes are better for professional development, ECSA looks wider than that.

ArchaDI & Guests (post #20) & others above has very relevant responses. Being registered or degreed does not a good engineer make - it is your attitude & eagerness to learn that counts. Go for varied experience, otherwise you specialise too early & then it is very difficult to move out. And yes, I've learnt most of what I know in my industry from people with electrician and linesmen backgrounds. I do think that we sometimes appoint engineers for the sake of doing so, when an artisan-type persons can do a much better job.

The last paragraph is very true, but there is a distinct lack of raw engineers or artisan types as you describe, coming into the fields of heavy construction, and industrial engineering. I have also leant the most from these types of people; they are often the most enthusiastic and willing to pass on their knowledge, when they know you have the same interest as they do. But I think lack the of such people entering into the field has a lot to do with government policy on education. For example: The current British government, have had a target to raise the level of people taking higher and further education.

As a recent graduate I believe that they have only increased the number of people not the standard of people, this is a basic statistics the same high achievers at school level would have most likely gone to university without the government incentive, but the section of make up level students would not have primarily gone to university. So now you have a more mixed spread of academic ability moving through university. I do not believe it is a bad thing to raise general education percentage.

But I think that it does effect the fields of heavy construction, and industrial engineering, people who would have once worked their way through an experience base, instead of higher education, are exiting higher education, over qualified to start at the most basic level, but too under experienced, to be thrown into the deep end of a field orientated environment. So instead they veer towards the areas, that are in more civilized (populated/metropolitan) areas (office/factory type environments), which they are soon locked into as we have both stated before. Again I not saying this route is a lesser in anyway, it is one I have come so close to following before. It is just that this requires a different type of attitude, one of acceptance more then questioning. Computer aided analysis has a part to do with this, the user (engineer) has little input (knowledge) into creating of the software matrices, it is case of inputting parameters.

The trait of risk taking in not acceptable in today's world, for some reasons that are good, but with risk taking comes a rebelliousness that wants to question; that is what is not right. This does not stand well with so called Fat Cats. As the question is: Why are they here and what are they doing? I have not experienced this phenomenon personally, but it is all too apparent with current privatized utilities companies, and anything at the top of the chain is only passes downs it cannot go up.

The previous responder "guest" is absolutely correct!

I would never qualify for positions such as he / she mentioned.

Fortunately the industry in which I practice does not require such extensive

qualifications.

And that is why I can practise without.

Yes, I am a bit of a minority and will be the first to highly recommend qualifications and certifications.

Fortunately, I am not bound by the added expense of the afore mentioned requirements - the more qualified the higher the salary expectations (I found I don't need to pay for stuff I don't need).

I'm not in this engineering thing to make money, I'm just having fun creating and inventing...

Mechanical Engineers can many times work without the need of a license. The licensure is really only for consulting on Civil type projects, public works, patents designs, etc.. There are many aspects of mechanical outside this type of work. It would limit you from being a consultant on your own, and you may end up woring under a licensed mechanical sometimes. Here in the US, your degree means the equivalent of 4-working years experience towards a license. Your Engineer-in-Training means the equivalent of like 8 or 12 working years. But anyone can test and receive a license if they have enough qualifying experience (like 16-years without the EIt and College, 2-years with College ABET program and EIT). In general, your degree has value in the way you market it.

I'm not an engineering graduate but I hear the same complaints all the time. Practically every engineer I've talked to say that they are registered only because they can add 20% to their requested salary or billing .

But seriously, if a person goes through four or five years of college, I would expect that he or she has been taught all the minimum skills or knowledge needed to enter into his chosen profession. The colleges are supposed to weed out the incompetents or those who need to repeat their training. Once you pass your final exams, you should get a certificate signifying that you know the minimum skills to start working...as an apprentice.

A license, in my opinion, is different. If I want to work on boilers, I need special training (above what I learned in college) which, upon completion, results in my getting a license to operate boilers. The license just tells people that I've received special training. If I want to design boilers, I need a different license and a more detailed and comprehensive training to learn boiler design. Again a license tells people that I know how to do that. If I wanted a boiler, I'd look for that license, not the diploma.

So as an apprentice, I can operate a boiler under the guidance of a licensed boiler operator. After my apprenticeship, I can receive a license and operate the boiler on my own. It should work the same way with boiler design.

Do I need to be a member of a professional organization? Perhaps it would be an advantage but should not be a necessity. Maybe a professional organization can get a discount on trainings or help in keeping the profession clean by keeping its members honest or something like that. Then a membership card tells people that this guy can be trusted or relied upon since he's a member of such and such. But should it be a requirement? I don't think so.

On the subject of working in other countries, there is an element of protectionism and also the play-it-safe mentality. If a guy from another country comes over and says he wants to practice here, I'd wonder if he has adequate training. He can show me his diploma (which doesn't really say if he's competent) but I'd still be wary. Then there are those people who say "don't give our jobs to foreigners". Tsk tsk.

Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world. A diploma only says that you've completed four or five years of college but doesn't say that you're qualified to build a ship. So they say you need to undergo a test and be licensed. The license doesn't tell people that you really know how to build the ship so a license here is not recognized there.