Starter Not Cranking

First, run a jumper from the + side of the batt and touch it to the + term on the soleniod. This should fire the starter. If it doesn't, R+R the solenoid with a known good one. Let us know what happens.

I got 6.3 volts on starter side of solenoid relay and the starter cable and connection are tight no rust cable was replaced in April. Still sounds like the starter but will jumper from the pos. batt. to the starter side of the solenoid relay switch

The first test is to put a large jumper directly to the starter, bypassing the solenoid. Double check ground connection, clean it well. It's always possible a brush could be worn out or just stuck. That's why people bang on starters, to free a stuck brush.

I would check all the grounds. Should be a ground wire from firewall to the block and another from the frame rail to the engine.

Yes, checked grounds, I have heavy duty braided ground strap fron engine to batt. and another one from frame to cab, all good clean metal, with dielectric grease coating, I would guess if ground was week it would crank slow which is what it did when I first bough it but all summer was cranking fast and always started within 3 seconds of cranking.

Got another battery? I never liked six volt systems. Any chance of changing to a twelve volt system? Are you sure the starter is not engaged into the flywheel? This starter needs to come out for inspection and testing if a new battery won't run it.

6-volt systems work fine if everything is correct--including clean high-capacity grounds, starter itself is OK, the cables are made for 6-volts (not from a parts store which probably means the small 12-volt cables), etc, etc. Some people want to keep things original, and that means 6-volt.

your the only one who understands that 6 volt systems are fine. I replaced all wiring this past year, including solenoid relay mounted on fire wall, starter cable, two heavy duty ground straps, ignition coil, positive battery cable etc.

Everything was new and starting was no problem, nothing is dirty, rusted etc.

I placed heavy duty cable from pos. side of battery to the starter side of the starting solemoid and got nothing the starter did not hum or spin.

I removed the starter and will order a new one from Mac Antique auto parts.

for the past six months this engine starts with about 3 second crank time and runs like a champ.

And in closing I will never change to 12 volts.

Mike

If you are going to remove and replace the starter anyway, why not try putting a dent in the thin stamped steel bulge in the side of that starter. What do you have to loose? If you do pull it out, test it on the floor with a set of jumper cables. Just be sure to have your foot on the starter so it does not run over you if it works. Good luck.

Before you buy a new starter, check the brushes. Even a (good) modern alternator shop can get brushes for old starters and generators. If you really lucky, the brush spring is hung up and the brushes are ok. It is unlikely that the starter is really bad (solder blown out, broken winding, etc.) if the car has been consistently starting quickly -- these things are more apt to happen when the starter gets over used and overheated. Chances are very good that $5 in brushes will get you going again.

Also be sure to try to run the starter out of the car. (Perhaps there is an open in the cable from solenoid to starter, etc.) Watch out for sparks, and make sure it is firmly held in place.

I still say the solenoid grounds through the starter motor via the starter brushes, as others have said, check the brushes and brush springs.

Cheers

Martin

From what you have done it sounds like the problem is in the starter itself--and that can be sudden onset. Let us know how the new starter does.

on the solenoid the will a wire coming out and to the starter, connect meter to this point and see if your 6.3 is coming out.

next with great care connect jumper from + side of bat direct to starter bypasing solenoid, i suspect starter is us ( no not american ,,,, un servicable )

I take it the starter you are taling about has the solenoid on top of the starter ?

yes, I jumped from the pos. batt. side directly to the starter side of solenoid, nothing happened, have already removed starter and ordered new one from a great antique auto parts company called MAC they are in New York.

The old starter was american made, it came out extremely easy, woulkd you believe its a press fit no bolts holding it in.

NO! It is not press fit. There must be bolts to secure it in. If you have no bolts holding it in, how well do you think that starter was grounded to the engine/bell-housing? You need to bolt that starter in. The loss of starter ground was likely the reason your starter stopped working.

The old starter was american made, it came out extremely easy, woulkd you believe its a press fit no bolts holding it in.

No, I would not believe that -- wuddya think we are, nutcases?

1. In working on a thousand or so cars, I have never seen a press fit starter. 2. If it is a press fit, then it cannot be easy to remove. Press fits generally require an arbor press or hydraulic press (or a lot of beating) to remove. 3. An engineer would be very unlikely to design a starter motor to be press fit into place: it costs more to provide the necessary precision of fit on both mating surfaces than it does to bolt the assembly together. Of all the places where press fits are used, this would be among these least likely. 4. If a press fit is easy to remove, without having access to the drive side of the starter to whack on, then the fit is too loose for a good ground.

When I picture an old 6 volt Ford starter, I picture something like this:

The solenoid is completely separate from the starter and has nothing to do with the Bendix drive engaging or not -- the engagement is via inertia of the gear on a spiral. These starters are held on by two small screws that pass through the length of the starter. It sounds like you have lost your screws. Thus the ground would be poor to non-existent, and the starter would not work.

You do not mention having connected the starter to a battery to test it while out of the truck. If you do this, don't clamp to any exposed threads, because the sparks are likely to damage them. Also be careful that you do not cause a short by letting the hot cable touch the starter case -- there is the potential for battery explosion. The starter will jump when energized, so must be firmly held in a vice, by a foot, etc.

Bumble

The pic you sent is my starter, that being said the two long bolts hold the outer metal housing over the starter armature, when I tapped on the starter hard enough with a rubber hammer it loosend and came out by slightly angling the shaft to get the head past the flywheel, the picture shows the plate at the end of the housing before the roataing shaft and gear,that is the part that sits inside the bell housing at the flywheel.

Mike

That starter has no flanges for bolting it in. How does it bolt in?

Friday I got back under the truck with better lighting and guess what I finally saw the two threaded holes for the two long bolts that run through the starter to mount it.

The new starter arrived from Mac Antique auto parts and the new clutch head will not fit by the flywheel, the instructions said to remove 5 to ten thousands of an inch from the clutch head diameter to get it to fit. so this week I will get it done.

GA from me for a really good answer.

Why "Moronic" in your name? (I have asked before I know!!), your answers are NEVER Moronic to me!! Or maybe we both are......

One of the previous replys suggested the possibility of a stuck brush and I'm sure we've seen this before. The wack on the starter is a fast and easy step and if a brush is stuck it will get it going. It's worth a try. When a hammer wasn't available a hunk of 2x4 worked equally as well.

h

A stuck or worn brush. In my case my 1967 Humber began to require the starter to be hit with a latge object and on removal of the starter, the brush springs had rusted so badly that two of them had broken totally.

If you have full battery voltage at the solenoid when you press the starter button and it only clicks, I assume you mean it does close the starting contact? If not the following comments will not be relent

Measure the voltage across the starting contacts if you get a high reading then the contacts are faulty, then measure the voltage on the outgoing contact to the starter to ground if it is near battery voltage your starter is faulty.This assumes your starter ground is good, If not you could get a low reading to the starter and a high reading to ground. Good idea to check all connections,

Probably the solenoid circuit grounds through the start armature, most likely brushes are worn on starter.

Cheers

Martin

6 Volt starters at the best of times dont age well, and sooner or later they run out of "oomph". Almost all 6 volt systems i've come across requires an extra relay to supply full battery voltage under load. Presently you are getting 6.3v without load. Chances are that you have dirt on the pinion gear shaft and a 6v dont like any resistance. Remember that when you turn the key (or press the button) the solenoid will first engage the starter and at the end of its travel it will make the switch. Dirt will prevent this final engagement due to lack of power. You may clamp a DC ammeter around the cable and try it. If you get current flow, and only clicking, you have dirt. If you dont have current flow then perhaps you have a abd brush. Either way it will be to your benefit to remove the started anyway. Do consider the additional relay to ensure full battery voltage on the starter.

Put the tranny in reverse.Rock the car back & forththis action should release a stuck "Bendix" return spring at least it did on my 1947 Mercury.

GA for reminding me

ah yes forgot that he may be right bendix may be stuck

ie the bit at the end of the strater that engages on the teeth on the flywheel

worth a try

Check the voltage to the starter at the starter if it has over 5.5 volt when trying to start. Use the reply to rap the starter with a hammer. If it starts replace the starter.

If the starter still doesn't turn roll the engine over with a socket and ratchet. If it won't turn pull the engine.

Chances you have a bad starter.

Is the Bendix spring working correctly? It doesn't sound like it. In which case, apply WD40 (usual disclaimer) liberally into all its important little places and give it a whack with a mallet/small hammer/lump of 4"x2"/whatever, and try again. It's a standard technique used in the first instance by the Automobile Association' s [AA] (usual disclaimer) on-the-road get-you-going-again team.

There's a thought. Push it somewhere away from its home-20, call the AA and get them to fix it!!

You have failed to mention the year of the starter, but the Ford starters with the fender mounted solenoid required strong current to pull the plunger in that engages the starter drive to the flywheel. Only after the drive engages the flywheel does the starter start to spin. When I was younger, it was common to adjust the distance the cover of the pull in plunger was from the plunger. By pushing in the cover 1/4" or so, the plunger would be able to pull in easier. When the plunger would not pull in, it would give exactly the same results as you. I have no test for this for you. But, if you have power at the starter, and it is grounded, It is worth a try. Good luck.

GA from me; I've had to do that bashing of the cover to make a Ford starter (used by the factory on an AMC Gremlin!) work. Still, the car went through at least four starters in the 6 years my friend owned it (bought new). Also had several (Mopar) alternators, two clutches, MANY tires, and in general far more repairs than could ever have been justified. The drivers' side outside rear view mirror could not be made to stay in place when the door was closed, and the window fell into the bottom of the door when the X-shaped support buckled. Rear floor rusted away entirely; discovered that left rear-seat passengers were climbing in stepping on carpet supported only by the FUEL & BRAKE LINES! Front seat was held up by pieces of 2x4 the last year or so. And no, it was not abused or even driven hard. Total POS on its best day.

Was that normal for that car, or did it have some gremlins?

"...did it have some gremlins?"

Cute! Sadly, I knew people with several other AMC vehicles back than, and they shared most of the problems; the mirrors and window glass, for example, happened on a Javelin and an AMX that I know of (I actually SAW the glass support failure happen on the Javelin! and the inward slope meant that there was a lot of exposed area for the rain that was coming. My then-boss was VERY unhappy). Nobody else I knew had stick shift on an AMC, unless it was the AMX owner, who I only met a couple of times, so they wouldn't have had the "fun" of learning that there were three entirely different clutches used between the inline six engine and transmission (trans built by Pontiac for use by Ford, thus the Ford starter use). Each clutch disc required a different throw-out bearing due to placement of the splined center. The throw-out, by the way, was infamous for sticking in the clutch-disengaged position due to rust on the sleeve that it rode upon. In order to learn which clutch you needed, it was necessary to look at a number stamped into the mating face of the bell housing, so the job meant tearing it apart, looking at the now-exposed number, and then going to find a clutch & throw-out. I spent more than two hours calling places around Cincinnati before finding one which could order it for two-day delivery. Of COURSE my friend's car had the rarest version...

When the clutch failed again the next year, the local [Madeira, Ohio] cops towed it while my friend's son, the driver, was writing a note to leave on the dashboard explaining that he'd be moving it in 15 minutes. The cops told his mother that she had a tow bill for $86 plus storage (one day minimum; they'd had it for about half an hour, and moved it less than a mile); she told them that no, she didn't, because it was THEIR car as of the moment they towed. For context, that price was in 1975 or 1976.

In the early 70s Broward County (FL) was buying a good share of cars from AMC. Ambassadors, and Concords mostly. Ford starters, Chrysler transmissions. GM steering colums, boxes, and pumps. Some had Ford ignition systems, some Prestolite.

Most gave good service, but were well maintained, and were sold off by 80,-90,000 miles.

I think that the Gremlin was just past 100k miles when towed. Rust was due to salted roads in winter; cars that put on miles relatively quickly and weren't sent to the rust belt lasted longer. I've heard that the V8/automatic combination had fewer issues, but wasn't around many so don't know first-hand.

Design in general was very poor: jack used tire iron as crank, and could only be given about half a turn, taken off and flipped over, re-installed, and given another half-turn. ALL warning and indicator lights were grouped behind a single square of red plastic, so that the parking lights & high-beam indicators, alternator failure, and low oil pressure warnings could not be distinguished while driving at night. (this idiocy was done on at least some other cars, such as some early '70s Ford Grenadas, aka "Grenades" if built with 302 engine). Doors were far too long & heavy for their hinges, and routinely sagged before the car was a year old. This compounded the outside rear-view mirror and door glass issues due to required lift-&-slam closing.