Previous in Forum: Good Quality Pneumatic Tools   Next in Forum: Experimental Evidence for Heaviside's Ellipsoid?
Close
Close
Close
19 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4

Fan Cooling Power

10/24/2010 12:36 PM

My question is on thermodynamics, can a fan cool a steel part cooler then ambient air in the room surrounding both the fan and the part? Struggling with this question I measured the a fan with a raytec gun and the fan was cooler on the output side then the intake side but this doesn't make sense to me.

__________________
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead;his eyes are closed. Albert Einstein
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#1

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 12:52 PM

No. Discounting radiation and conduction, you are left with convection. So, this means that any heat that is carried away must be transferred by the air molecules passing over the part.

Once the part and the air are at the same temperature there is no potential for energy transfer. The part can't get any cooler.

As to the apparent temperature difference front to back of the fan, without seeing the setup, that's anybodies guess.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15600
Good Answers: 981
#2

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 12:56 PM

Significant cooling cannot occur from just the movement of air by a fan. Now a fan can increase the cooling effect from evaporation or could improve part of a system that uses compression and expansion to transfer heat. I suspect that you're actually getting a false reading by using an infrared pyrometer that is actually showing you the heat generated by the motor on the air intake side of the fan and not the air entering the fan.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#3

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 1:00 PM

To get the correct temperature you need the correct emissivity for the material you are using as a target - this is the problem with IR guns. Any difference in surface finish, color or whatever distort the reading.

They are the worst temperature measuring device in the world - in the hands of probably 99% of the people using them.

Get a TC and measure the temperature - then you have a real number.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 647
#11
In reply to #3

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 2:59 PM

GA. The IR gun I've used says if you're not sure of the emissivity of the surface place a piece of ordinary masking tape on the surface. It will take on the temp of the surface and it's emissivity is close to the value used for calibrating the IR gun.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4
#4

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 1:17 PM

Thanks everyone for your reply. My question stems from someone who told me the coolers at my work where freezing due to wind blowing over them.Supercooling them and dropping there temp more them ambient air.

__________________
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead;his eyes are closed. Albert Einstein
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 1:20 PM

Or, The "coolers' were cold enough to freeze water out of the air.

You have completely changed the thrust of the whole issue.

Could you perhaps give us the entire picture at one time?

Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 1:29 PM

The coolers are outside the plant at ground level and they are pitched for draining. The water is inclosed in tubes that keep cracking. This happens when it gets in the teens outside southern Wisconsin. I do understand the the rate of chilling would be faster but, how fast?

__________________
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead;his eyes are closed. Albert Einstein
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#7

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 1:32 PM

This sounds like a cooling tower, as water is involved. The entering air is at dry-bulb temperature; the leaving air is at slightly above wet-bulb temperature.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 142
Good Answers: 3
#14
In reply to #7

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/25/2010 8:54 AM

Lack of info stumps me. Thought out the effects of icing on aircraft but have never heard of icing on a propeller. My employees work on refrigeration every day of the week and have never hade ice on fan blades. would love to see a GA on this one.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#18
In reply to #14

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/26/2010 9:04 AM

" icing on aircraft but have never heard of icing on a propeller."

Haven't been around too many aircraft? Props can, and do, ice if conditions are right.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#8

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 1:41 PM

Not to be too critical, but, "He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand ramt in awe, is as good as dead;his eyes are closed."

Don't you mean, "He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead;his eyes are closed."

I give up on the, " can a fan cool a steel part cooler then ambient air in the room"

problem.

Bye.

Register to Reply
Commentator
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member Engineering Fields - Acoustical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 58
Good Answers: 1
#9

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 2:21 PM

Would like to help, but there is not enough information to go on, as it sounds like you have an ordinary chiller, ie refrigerating unit that is probably connected to a set of heat exchangers, as this does not make sense to have frozen part when the ambient is in the teens with an ordinary water tower. if you can describe what the system is for and what the overall system looks like. or throw us some names and model numbers or photo would be better.

__________________
If you do not have you own philosophy you cannot amend it.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 2:36 PM

The 'teens' are degrees F I believe.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#12

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/24/2010 3:31 PM

It is not possible to cool a part below ambient temperature without using another fluid.

The principle that a water/air cooling tower uses is the evaporation of the water, which will cool it to the wet-bulb temperature of the surrounding air, which varies with altitude, pressure, weather conditions and time of day. Most of the time, the wet-bulb is lower than the dry bulb temperature; that would do it.

If a temperature is required that is lower than the current wet-bulb, a fridge system must be employed to create a chilled service fluid. The part is then immersed partly or fully in the chilled fluid; that would do it.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 63
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/25/2010 8:24 AM

Fully agree with you.

This application is not suitable to be cooled by a FAN. We can suggest many alternates if that is what u are looking for. Please let us know.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Popular Science - Weaponology -

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Eden
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 39
#15
In reply to #13

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/25/2010 12:32 PM

I don't believe he's talking about an actual fan. He is talking about the outdoors wind blowing across it, cooling it more than the temperature outside... but was using the fan explanation to decribe the theory in a round about way.

Am I deciphering this question properly??

Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Fan cooling power.

10/25/2010 5:33 PM

Yes,that's what I was trying to say maybe I should have been more clear about it. I am new to this kind of form but, thanks for all the replies.

__________________
He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead;his eyes are closed. Albert Einstein
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#17

Re: Fan Cooling Power

10/25/2010 7:48 PM

Once again, if water is present, either a fan or the wind can result in cooling to (or at least near) the wet-bulb temperature, which will be less than the ambient temperature unless the air is saturated with water vapor.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: CHENNAI, TAMIL NADU, INDIA.
Posts: 1851
Good Answers: 65
#19

Re: Fan Cooling Power

02/15/2011 1:01 PM

Dear Watts up,

NO is the answer.

DHAYANANDHAN.S, INDIA

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 19 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

CONWAYMECH (1); dhayanandhan (1); Dub (1); lyn (4); Out of Box Experience (1); PWSlack (1); RAJ089 (1); redfred (1); russ123 (2); Tornado (2); Usbport (1); Watts up (3)

Previous in Forum: Good Quality Pneumatic Tools   Next in Forum: Experimental Evidence for Heaviside's Ellipsoid?

Advertisement