Generator without fuel engine

you can improve your design by installing the motor on the back wheels and the alternator on the front wheels. by having the back wheels bigger than the front you will have enough additional power to accelerate and even run a telecommunication radio to summons a tow truck.

Another advantage of the bigger wheels at the back is that the vehicle is always running down hill.

An alternative to improve efficiency is to connect the front axle to the back. If you use a chain drive you can also include pedals (striped from any pain-frame - bicycle)

By looking at a rough energy balance

1 Battery + alternator - drive - losses = available

2 alt = drive

if substituted 1 becomes battery - losses = available.

Sorry the improvements wont help. You may have to look for additional energy.

Bravo Hendrick! An appropriate response.

Nope... this arrangement will not work. The amount of energy out of the alternator will equal the energy supplied by the DC motor on its input shaft, minus the difference in efficiency of the DC motor. The net output of this system will be negative.

Perpetual motion is a "holy grail" that does not in fact exist.

Rick...

Oh yeah! What about the "Orbo" dude?

Steorn magnetic power thingy...Nuclear is OU...If perpetual motion is impossible, how do you explain the Universe? So "perpetual motion" is merely relative...If you were shot out into open Space, would you ever stop? Or would you be in perpetual motion? Producing energy from nothing, now that's impossible....Before anybody starts with ZPE or "Dark Energy", that would be something not nothing...

What exactly is or who is "Orbo"?

The universe is quite easy... it is driven by many different energy sources. All of them stem from the energy of the nuclear fusion processes contained in the stars of the universe.

Of course perpetual motion is relative, to state otherwise is ludicrous.

Newton's first law of motion states that an object in motion will remain in motion unless an outside force is applied to it to change its state of motion.

So if you were shot out into space would you stop, of course you would, because even in space you will hit things (gas atoms and dust and other objects) or be influenced by the gravity of a body and that will cause your momentum to bleed off. Eventually any object, no matter how big or fast it is moving, will come to a stop.

Are you saying that the Earth is coming to a stop!?!? OH MY GOD!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!

As far as i'm concerned, anything that lasts longer than i do, is perpetual...

The "Orbo" is a magnetically run motor, ie; a motor that runs on magnet power alone...You've got to get out more...

Actually the world is coming to a stop. Its angular motion is being bled off by all sorts of things. It's the time lines involved that make the planets rotation look "perpetual" in nature.

As to the "Orbo", thanks for bringing it to my attention. All I can say is... Ohh boy, lots of empirical data on that website. Was there enough to convince you that we need to re-write the laws of physics? If so... maybe it is you that needs to get out a bit.

Though if they have in fact found some aspect of a very well understood physical property, such as magnetisim, that had never before been observed by man, I'll be impressed and it will be a boon for mankind, not to mention their bank books.

Don't buy stock yet.

HI !

YOU GOT THE IDEA: magnetism !

if the engine used high power magnets to boost the power, the electro magnets are set up in a large circule the fluctuations of the magnet will insure extra power with low input power from the electric charge from the batteries and the recharge of the batteries from the engine and a power booster from an electronic box.

This will insure a ample source of power to run what is needed, & insure the engine will continue operating efficiently.

PS !

YOU can add solar or wind power as a boost to give additional energy to the generator. eventually you will reach a threashhold where enough power is going in to sustain the generator & a power stream comming out. There is also earth power, an electric charge that the earth generates which can be amplified and added for an extra kick of energy to ensure power stream stability.

As is said, "The proof is in the pudding." Just make one that you are satisfied with, and the world will beat a path to your door! Why spend so much time and effort talking about it - just build one.

Quite. Look at all those leap-seconds that have been needed to help earth's clocks match the rotatey-most of the earth-lobe...

I never, in my wildest dreams think that this topic would of generated such interest. I am happy for all the inputs and there are many ideas that i can glean from. I have already started working on a drawing. I am just working out the calculation, and then see if I can go beyond Murphy's Law and come up with an inventions that will be feasable and practical for the Library.

Hi esbony,

I am happy for all the inputs and there are many ideas that i can glean from. I have already started working on a drawing. I am just working out the calculation, and then see if I can go beyond Murphy's Law and come up with an inventions that will be feasable and practical

This may be the case but I fear you have overlooked the most important point that no system can give out more energy than goes in.

Put simply your system can never and will never work.

No matter how you arrange the system or what ratio the gears are the generator output will always be less than the motor needs to drive the gearbox and generator.

There are no if, buts or maybes about it, that is just the way it is.

When Thomas Edison tried to make the first light bulb, it took him over one thousand tries to come up with the ideal solution. it was a crazy idea man had to travel to the moon. Even today, many doubt that man had ever touch foot on the moon. Many ideas are like incubus, But we can turn those incubus into positive, good spirits and great invention to better mankind. I am very happy for this forum so we can interact, bounce off ideas, fact and guidance to each other.

"When Thomas Edison tried to make the first light bulb, it took him over one thousand tries to come up with the ideal solution. it was a crazy idea man had to travel to the moon."

But to date, absolutely nothing what so ever, violates the most fundamental law of the universe and that is you can't get something for nothing. Energy must come from somewhere, it must either be converted from some other form of energy or the conversion of matter to energy.

HI ! masu !

about your statement, energy has to come from somewhere it can't be created from nothing. BUT ! there are occasions when the input power could be hidden, lets say through a magnet and several small sources of power that is magnified so it looks as though it is a natural stimulation of power wouldn't it look like it comes from nothing?

lets say sound stimulates a magnet to react a certain way, that magnet could be grouped in an engine setup and produce power and it would look as if no power is going in but power is coming out. what do you say about that idea ? do i get the patent on this one?

i have a solar invention i am trying to find a angle investor for, it's been cleared by several engineers of electric and mechanical, i need to build a demo model for a patent attempt do you know of any one that may be interested ? I have drawings & explanations, I'm ALL EARS ! waiting for your reply. thanks !

goldrushnugget999

What you try to tell us is that we need to look for the hidden energy supplier in the so called free energy world.

In most cases they even don't use hidden sources: they just can't calculate and don't see the problem of driving a big generator with a small engine.

Or they do know very well the fault but hope to gain as quickly as possible as much money as possible so that they can retire.

For a patent: Do you really need a working model? In many cases only simple idea's are patented, to have a bit of the cake when someone builds the unit.

HI Gwen !

simple ideas are not patentable, a prototype needs to be produced to get investors, and the expense is a lot to a person that has little money.

i hope to find someone that would just listen to my 30 or so inventions with the same theme, mabe they will see the need for the production of these items.

thanks for listening

goldrushnugget999

To my knowledge the simpler the idea the strongest the patent: a filing which is worked out in to deep detail leaves to much workaround space.

I must admit: in the alternative energy sourcing area it is not directly a way of inventions that will lead us further up the hill, but marketing that starts selling the stuff that exsists.

I'm also instersted in starting a business, if you happen to know someone with money and marketing - managment skills in my neighburhood?

Regards, Gwen

HI Gwen !

I will keep you in mind when i find my angle investor to market my product !

i will keep looking, There must be some one out there that's interested in making money & LOTS OF IT !

goldrushnugget999

Where are all those oil dollars? It is the moment to start alternative energy supply systems.

The more diverse investigations could go the more solutions will be found.

It will be the diversity that will keep us floated.

HI Gwen !

IT LOOKS as if the pendulum is swing back and power creators will be the new oil barrens in the future, the public is just catching on to the power mad developers who will buy up all kinds of power inventions to control the industry and countries to their greedy desperate ways. Is there a easy way to block these people from controlling the worlds power ? CAN THE U.N. LIKE world wide group stop this world wide control of the power generation ? is there no end of there greedy control of power resources. Gwen I HOPE YOU HAVE SOME IDEAS ! MABE EMBARGOS BY COUNTRIES to stop the massing of super power countries in controlling the worlds power. MABY IT'S MONEY VERSES TECHNOLOGY. Is that how to stop the power grab ?

goldrushnugget999

I have some idea's but after all people like to have it simple:

Idea 1: A wind/solar powered car. A simple battery powered electric car. I can run 150 to 200 km / charge and you can hook it up to a windmill at home. (Or when it is possible an array of PV cells, but as it would stand at you work during day it could be difficult) During the evening and night the wind charges the batteries. This would make me completely independent from oil supply (at least for powering the car)

Idea 2: accumulate the sun's excess summer heat in a fusion style of heat storage. This heat can be used in winter to heat your house. Excess power of the cars windmill could be injected to.

You see: very simple sample style of engineering. everything exists but it is not used.

Important is to assure the comfort of the user. He doesn't want to be bothered with the systems functionality. It must simply work.

Any car company may contact me to drive the project on idea 1. I live near Brussels, I could start talking to the authorities that need to be convinced. I'm sure that with a clear project we can get a nice amount of money to work it out. Electric drive must just be an option like diesel or gasoline, like automatic or manual.

Gwen !

I read that salt can store heat for long periods of time. Have you heard any thing about salt storing heat ? I Agree an alternative supply house would be a good business to get in also, hopefully it would market it self, but we'll need service personnel for preventive maintenance & Repairs WORLD WIDE, how about contractors by region or country, no hourly wages until there on the job, weather installation or maintenance i think thats the way to go.

THANKS

goldrushnugget999

Hi GOLDRUSHNUGGET999,

"I read that salt can store heat for long periods of time. Have you heard any thing about salt storing heat ?"

It all has to do with a thing called specific heat. Basically specific heat is a measure of the amount of energy that it takes to heat something and is measured in Joules per Degree Kelvin or Celsius per Gram or Kilogram. Here are the specific heats for some common materials.

• Air 1.010 Jg^-1°K^-1
• Aluminium 0.902 Jg^-1°K^-1
• Copper 0.385 Jg^-1°K^-1
• Gold 0.129 Jg^-1°K^-1
• Iron 0.450 Jg^-1°K^-1
• Mercury 0.140 Jg^-1°K^-1
• NaCl 0.864 Jg^-1°K^-1
• Ice 2.030 Jg^-1°K^-1
• Water 4.179 Jg^-1°K^-1

So, the higher the value of the specific heat the more energy you can store in a substance when the temperature is raised. If you look at the specific heat of salt NaCl it is fairly high when compared to the metals like copper, gold, iron and mercury but less that a quarter of that of water.

Now it may sound a little strange that the specific heat of air is greater than NaCl but you need to take into account the volume as well. A Kg o NaCl has a relatively small volume where a Kg of air occupies nearly 1m³.

"I Agree an alternative supply house would be a good business to get in also, hopefully it would market it self"

The problem with using multiple energy sources to supply a single dwelling or structure is that you end up with a lot of equipment that is only used for relatively short periods of time. You also end up needing to compromise each of the different energy sources so they ca all work together.

A much better solution is to stick with one power generating system that is best suited to your location. You then feed any surplus generating capacity to the grid where it us used to make up shortfall in other areas. For example, in a dry desert area you would most likely utilize photovoltaic cells to generate electricity while in costal regions where it is nearly always windy you would use a wind turbine. At night the surplus from the wind turbine would supply power to the desert where they were using solar and vice versa when the wind isn't blowing. The more diverse the generating technologies and wider the area interconnected the more reliable the system becomes. You can then utilize hydroelectric power which can be brought on line fairly quickly, to supply any overall shortfalls and store any system wide surplus.

There are several advantages to such a system:

1. The technology already exists and you do not need to spend massive amounts of time and money developing new technology.
2. The existing power distribution grid can be used to distribute any surplus generating capacity.
3. Existing hydroelectric systems can be use to make up any system wide shortfalls and in curtain locations that already have the capability store any system wide surplus.
4. It can be implemented in small steps and does not require the construction of massive infrastructure.
5. There is no wasted or duplicate generating capacity at individual locations thus reducing the expenditure on plant and equipment.
6. Surplus generating capacity is an income producer and can either give the owner an income or be used to offset the cost of purchasing power during local generating short falls.

Anyway, I hope that's helped and not confused too many.

Both of you are right: salt has a good heat storage capacity, due the combination of density, specific heat, ease of storage and cost. The two last are the most important.

• Steel and iron would be even better, but cost is to high.
• Water is low cost but not so easy to store
• Salt combines the low cost with the ease of storage.

Now comes the difficulty:

• The range of application: steel and certanly iron can be used in a very high range of temperatures (> 1000°C is no problem for iron), salt (NaCl) melts at approx 800°C, so usable till 700°C, water starts to boil from 100°C and is only usable till 90/95 if you can keep the vapors in the tank.
• the supply of heat: normal solar heater collectors can reach temperatures up to 90°C and in high summer can boil water. But higher is not feasable with roof mounted systems. (solar ovens reach very high temps but are not feasable for domestic usage)
• the heat users: domestic heat is used at levels between 30 and 70°C

Combine this and you find an active range between 30 (underfloor heating water) and 90°C (the level of your storage after a nice summer, maybe next year)

dT is only 60K

The best way to store heat is to get the product with the highest energy storage/m³ and lowest cost, which still remains to be water.

A fancy way is to fill old PET bottles with water and to allow then to be heated up by the sun. Sun-air heat exchanger, the hot air is heating up the bottles and the bottles heat up the house is you want it. (ventilators organise the heat flow)

My idea is to use a parrafine to melt at 70°C, this latent heat storage absorbs and gives a lot of energy at a constant temperature level.

The systems exist, there are companies that have it. But they look into transport and other regions. (Keeping stuff at a predetermined temps during transport)

"Steel and iron would be even better, but cost is to high."

Not on an energy to mass basis NaCl has a specific heat of 0.864 Jg^-1°K^-1 while iron has a specific heat of 0.450 Jg^-1°K^-1 which is a little over half that of salt. However, if you look at it on a volumetric basis then NaCl can store 1.967 MJ°K^-1m^-3 while iron can store 3.537 MJ°K^-1m^-3

I look to the volumetric capacity, which is also a good figure to compare as the insulation is equal to.

HI ALL !

I Was thinking of a salt heat storage area in the backyard of my house, cycling hot air or water through a radiator device heating up the salt & having a separate system to bring the heat into the house, ie hot water and hot air. the salt can store heat for long periods of time if well insulated. than i can use the solar electric system for house power. this covers the most of home needs. reversing the hot water system in the summer would dump heat from the water & bring in cool water at ground temp of 55 degrees for cooling. this system is similar to a heat pump that works in winter or summer & is a home regulating item that is needed world wide.

Thanks MASU & Gwen for your great comments. the alternative energy supply house would be hit in any area, i hope we could get together on this. word of mouth would market this, with a few good customers we would be on our way.

THANKS

goldrushnugget999

For the hydrogen economy to work there needs to be an economically viable and pollution free source of H2 and the use of liquid fossil fuels as that source raises several questions:

1. If using oil to create H₂ is only going to increase our consumption and dependence on it is it worth investing in the technology at all?
2. Since the concept is dependant on the development of a viable carbon sequestration system is it worth working on before carbon sequestration is proven practical?
3. Can we expand the process by a factor of around 70 fold to cover our current fossil fuel consumption?

So, what do you think about extracting H₂ from oil?

"I Was thinking of a salt heat storage area in the backyard of my house, cycling hot air or water through a radiator device heating up the salt & having a separate system to bring the heat into the house, ie hot water and hot air."

You would be far better off using water to store the energy and then using the water directly to heat or cool. There are several reasons for this:

1. 1. Water has a much greater heat storage capacity than NaCl both mass and volumetric wise.
2. 2. You cant just use the amount of energy that the specific substance can store you also need to take into account how difficult is to get the heat into that substance. This is called thermal conductivity and the conductivities at play here are:
1. NaCl 6.5 Wm^-1°K^-1
2. H₂O 0.58 Wm^-1°K^-1
3. Air 0.025 Wm^-1°K^-1
3. Now while NaCl has a higher thermal conductivity than water you also need to take into account that this is for a single crystal of NaCl and in reality you will have many small crystals separated by air. As a result the effective thermal conductivity is going to be considerably lower and probably no better than water.
4. 3. Water is a liquid and as such you can stir it up and minimize any temperature gradients within it. With NaCl you cant mix it up and therefore can't distribute the energy as evenly.

4. Water is a hell of a lot cheaper than NaCl

5. You don't need to have an intermediate heat transfer stage to get the heat from the NaCl to the water but can use the water directly to heat or cool.

When you take all that into account then using water to store your energy is the only way to go. The only thing that you may have a problem with is boiling or freezing but this can normally be overcome with chemicals that are added to the water. Regardless of whether you use water as the storage you will need to add chemicals to stop freezing, boiling, corrosion, bacterial growth etcetera so all you will be doing is increasing the volume of water.

<....power creators will be the new oil barrens in the future...>

Does this mean that the energy will not actually be free; that it will cost something, and that something goes into the pockets of the 'free energy barons'? If so, then 'free energy' is a misnomer, n'est-ce pas?

Pull the other one. It's got bells on.

_{[The definition of a 'con': "Find someone who wants something for nothing. Give that person nothing for something".]}

Gwen HI !

i haven't heard from you in a while ! Have you gone on vacation? still no word on a angle investor, have you heard anything on your ideas?

thanks

goldrushnugget999

I have had some vacation and did some comissioning jobs abroad.

I have had no time to open up a real project yet but I still working on it in free time.

Your plan on the heat storage: It would be great to build a system round it and to promote it for household usage.

I would go for latent heat storage, which is slightly better than H2O in the household temperature range. It will be more expensive but corrosion is neglectible, so a lot of money can be saved on the containers.

Salt is in my eyes the wordt choice: highly corrosive when it absorbs water (and adding water would improve the functionality) and bad for the environment when you have a spill. Water is great as it costs nothing (falls for free out of the sky) but the container needs to be corrosion proof when you start to heat it.

The whole system stands on size: you need to have quite a container to store the heat for one winter season, or you need to find a way to heat your system with other sources than solar heat. (wind turbine)

Gwen

lets say sound stimulates a magnet to react a certain way, that magnet could be grouped in an engine setup and produce power and it would look as if no power is going in but power is coming out. what do you say about that idea ? do i get the patent on this one?

All you have described is a speaker in reverse and just as the power that is being consumed by a speaker is transferred to kinetic energy in the air the opposite is true. The energy that is produced by the coil is coming from the air that is causing the motion in the coil.

As Gwen.Stouthuysen has said if you have a system that is putting out more energy than you are putting in then to date it has always turned out to be erroneous measurement, calculations or lack of understanding of the physics.

The only place that you get out more energy is when matter is converted to energy as in nuclear fission and fusion but in reality you still aren't getting something for nothing because it is coming from the matter that is converted to energy. You could say that energy and matter are really two manifestations of the same thing.

All you have described is a speaker in reverse

There is even a common name for this piece of equipment: a microphone.

It is a quite handy tool, used in radio, sound recording and television studio's.

There was a time that they used to make movies without the use of this tool, but people like to hear the actors.

HI Gwen and MASU !

ALL I was saying is there are ways of hiding multi sources of energy going in to a generator and a lot of power coming out, just an example, i know i described a microphone ! BUT the example is important to demonstrate the idea of hiding the getting of power from nothing.

goldrushnugget999

He, I know what you tried to explain, I was playing with the idea that sometimes "inventors" show up with something that is already on the market.

Most of them make it to complex, creating something that is only usable in one special domain (can crushers) where people don't want to spend money (I just step on them).

What you can do is creating a nice presentation, showing with clear calculations what you want to achieve. show the whole thing to some people who can understand and prove that you are the inventor in case of trouble and start contacting the big ones. I have a patent shared with Phillips (for the whole world). Those companies will not try to rip your idea,

In Australia you can protect an idea. I don't know whether this can be used by non Australians and what it costs.

Perhaps it is a service that we need to offer: we take your invention, and publish it on the net, with clear explication when we received the idea (with proof) and from who it came. In case of later discussions the web sites data could be used in court.

Gwen !

MABY this is a new way on establishing a world wide patent on the WEB Through your description it sounds possible. similar to a copyright ! only later the patenter must show that the object works as the patenter described with proof the WORLD WIDE PATTENT is granted.

goldrushnugget999

I will talk of it with uncle Kofi,

shit he's no longer the boss.

HI MASU !

THE OTHER FORMS ARE A VARIABLE POWER input to form a generated powerd output for useable power items. It is a fact that a collection of different power inputs can be assembled & combined to output power enough to power a home sending that power through a set of batteries that focused the power for home use. say wind, water, solar power input and home power output. I DO AGREE there is nothing that violates fundamental laws, it just makes best use of all sources input to power a targeted output.

THANKS

goldrushnugget999

HI !

There was a show on last night about new inventors, this guy had a energy magnifier machine he showed that 12 car batteries put power in 120 watts & he got 1,200 watts out he demonstrated this machine twice in the show & he stated that he can't get a patent on it because the fed. won't agree that it works. even when he showed them in person. now he has a law suit against the patent office to force them to admit that this machine dose work. are we inventors going to be put through this process when we invent a new machine or process that the patent office says can't work ???????

thanks

goldrushnugget999

OH !

The show said this guy has patents in several countries but the U.S. won't give him a patent.

Have you found a marketer for your inventions yet, i e-mailed to one place but they haven't sent any info & I am getting concerned, there must be some one out there !

thanks

GOLDRUSHNUGGET999

HI !

Have you tried to (in a fixed engine) add a flywheel to pick up the excess power & transform it in to standby power for when the engine needs an additional push to get back into regular power production. there is no batteries involved & it can be automatically accessed when the engine has a large draw of power and it could be used with a clutch so when the engine reaches speed the clutch kicks in to rebuild the backup power again automatically.

just a thought on the spur of the moment.

see you later

goldrushnugget999

esbony waxes enthusiastic in the face of informed pessimism. Reality takes another hit.

HI ALL!

Guest you mentioned about an "Orbo" engine can you elaborate on that process of the engine?

thanks

goldrushnugget999

Hi Goldrush,

I believe the guest is talking about the energy from nothing perpetual motion machine that Steorn are trying to push. Anyway here is the link to the Steorn Orbo web page.

Again something that works on paper but miserably fails in reality as the drawing is not the real form of movement.

Nice is the announcement on the demonstration display: postponed until further notice. The heat of the lamp is disturbing the the system. In the dark it runs but if you switch on the light it stops.

HI Gwen & Masu !

thanks for the info, I agree tempting but no thanks.

goldrushnugget999

...Nuclear is OU...

No, nuclear reactions (fission and fusion) convert matter into energy, as per Einstein's famous equation E=mc^2 (energy equals mass times the speed of light squared). For example, during every second of time, the nuclear fusion powering the Sun is estimated to convert 4 million tons of hydrogen into pure energy. Since matter counts as a type of energy, nuclear reactions obey the 1st law of thermodynamics.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/articles/fusion/index.html

http://zenith.as.arizona.edu/~burrows/classes/250/pp.html

HI NORTH OF 60 !

I BEG TO DIFFER WITH YOU, THE TIDES HAVE BEEN Changing for some billions of years that looks like perpetual motion if there is p---motion, so don't tell me it dosen't exist. you need to find the right combination of powers & users to recreate it.

Hi GOLDRUSHNUGGET999,

I BEG TO DIFFER WITH YOU, THE TIDES HAVE BEEN Changing for some billions of years that looks like perpetual motion if there is p---motion, so don't tell me it dosen't exist.

In approximately 160 Ps ( peta seconds) the sun will run out of hydrogen to fuse and will start fusing helium. At this time the Sun will swell and engulf the Earth vaporizing it. There will be no more tides because there will be no more Earth or Moon.

So, nothing is forever, therefore, there can be no such thin as something that is in motion forever.

HI ALL !

I DID SOME RESURCH & an article in distributed energy magazine may/June 2007 page 22 about flywheels and all the energy they can generate. if enlarged and alternate power runs them there may be ray of light at the end of the tunnel. the few companies that produces them, uses carbon-fiber & levitates the wheel with magnets (NO DRAG) & it,s sealed in a vacuum. there are over 400 sights through the world that use them in various ways to produce power the largest ones use multiple wheels to sustain the power over a longer period of time. if grouped with alternate sources the wheels & there power could be sustained. tests showed that they could last for several hours producing power without additional power going in. they could be stepped up another notch to produce power with low input for days or weeks.

kinetic energy and new breakthroughs in technology may be an answer to our long term energy needs in the future. check it out WWW.distributedenergy.com

thanks for listening

goldrushnugget999

I have never seen one myself but back when I was working as a computer systems engineer there was an Uninterruptible Power Supply manufacturer that was pushing the concept.

They work ok for fixed installations like UPS but if you try and use them in a vehicle as some have suggested you come across big problems when you try and change direction. During WW I when that used rotary engines that had the entire engine spinning to cool the engine they had some serious problems with the gyroscopic effect rotating the result of control inputs by 90°. If you tried to turn to the left the nose ended up burying itself in the ground and if you tried to turn right the nose would pitch up violently stalling the aircraft. Lowering the nose would result in turns I have no idea what happened with rudder input and I am not sure I want to.

The whole thing was a nightmare and the undoing of many pilots. The whole idea was ultimately ditched and they soon went back to engines that were fixed and had a rotating crank.

HI !

One of the original U.P.S. companies have expanded in total building power for U.P.S. & they are getting into power company power stabilisation methods for smooth delivery to customers without dramatic piques and lows, a smooth consistent power supply is what the power companies want. the wheels are rotating at 55,000 revolutions a minute with a wheel weight of half a ton, and as many as 500 wheels in a large storage building. they produce power for several hours with no input power. you should read the article i earlier described.

THANKS

goldrushnugget999

I should have also indicated that the mechanical loses of the gearbox will also eat energy and contribute, albeit, negatively to the energy balance of what you propose.

Rick...

I love perpetual motion ideas, it's like shooting fish in a barrel!

So let's say, just for fun, that there is no such thing as friction, resistance, windage, power factor or any other type of losses and you can in fact have a generator that produces enough power to keep itself generating. Then what? What good is it other than as a curiosity? The second you take ANY power out of it, mechanical or electrical, you are immediately in a negative situation! You cannot, even in engineering paradise, get more power out of something than what you put in.

What's funniest to me is, I had this very same idea... when I was 9 years old and entering a science fair. I made the entire thing from Erector Set components and batteries before asking my Dad to come and explain to me why it wasn't working. What I did however was turn it into a science project anyway where I explained why perpetual motion wouldn't work. I got 2nd place for it.

You would be surprised (or maybe not) to know how many peope continue to propose such simplistic over-unity perpetual motion machines. Don't forget the version in which an electric fan turns a windmill that turns a generator that powers the fan. The world has so many scientifically illiterate people! And even those who distrust scientists must address the question of why those who claims to have violated thermodynamic can never provide convincing evidence (and the supposed "Big Conspiracy" by Big Oil/U.S. Military/Grey Aliens/etc doesn't work as an excuse -- why would China, France, Brazil, Cuba, North Korea, and Iran go along with it?). Anyone who thinks they thought of their perpetual motion machine design first should have a look at the Museum of Unworkable Devices:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Also see the skeptical Yahoo group:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/free_energy/

This one was a favorite gem:

"It may be perpetual motion, but it will take forever to test it."
Cartoon by Donald Simanek.

"We know that the cat lands with its feet downside when thrown into the air. We also know that the bread always falls butter side down when thrown into the air. So if we stick a peice of bread to the cat's back and then put butter on the bread, then we would have achieved a perpetual motion machine that will keep rotating above the floor at a constant speed, not knowing which side to fall down first?"

You can leverage this little-known effect to good advantage by putting the cat on a spit connected to a generator set. Alternatively, use the rotating spit to turn a propeller or ducted fan to supply the forward thrust for a wingless aircraft (a gearbox may be necessary to achieve the requisite RPMs). The vertical thrust is, of course, supplied directly by the levitating cat.

For really high-torque applications use a Bengal tiger, leaf lard and a loaf of seven-grain bread.

I'd supply drawings but the Government has already warned me once.

Cheers!

-e

I take advantage of over-unity every day... I live at the top of a hill, and work is located toward the bottom. I don't even have to start my car, I simply take off the brake and put it in neutral and coast to work! Now explain to me why this isn't over-unity energy!!!

Do you tie a bungee cord to it so you can get home ?

No, I just get a job and an apartment further down the hill... It's a very large hill.

I may have a solution to moving house. Place a pully at the top of the hill, connect a very large bucket on one side and your car on the other with a wire rope.After work, sit in your car and wait for heavy rainfall. As you bucket fills, you will be dragged smoothly back home. You'll have to ring work and get them to empty the bucket each morning, else you won't be able to roll into work.

So, do I take it you guys don't like cats? I'm telling Del.

G'day, gals, guys & gurus,

• So, do I take it you guys don't like cats?

I love cats. Preferably lightly fried in a pan (medium rare at most) and olive oil then served with a sauce of 15 year old tawny port, plumb jam, with a light dusting of sesame seeds.

How very Thai of you. They love all sorts of pets

I did the same thing with my erector set as a 7,8,9, yr old not sure when really. I too LOVE "Perpetual Motion" ideas as I LIKE TO DREAM, and at 49 years old I dream a lot, so I never discourage any ideas I hear or read about as some day someone may find it through making all these mistakes,,,,,,,just my thoughts, Chuck

CHUCK this is the guy that got hold of you a few weeks ago that is doing the electric car in Wisconsin. I lost your phone number, I have a couple articles that might be of intrest to you and your son E-mail me your # at hilltopper41@gmail.com

Energy cannot be creat, it is always transferred from one form to another. So this transfer is always equal we can't increase it.

If you are tthinking of generating power without fuel is very easy........... how?

By wind mill.

Dear Sir,

This type of generator already made in india and my self i have made and already i have put for in world wide registration and i have already develop 12v to 24 v supply to charged and after charging in 2 minute its start continue running and already made up to 200kw and power effiency of this product is more 200 % and i am ready now to live display in tv channels to if you like to see this thing u can see at any were in few days ..

This has to be a record, two perpetual motion, energy from nothing machines in one post.

I have just one thing to say about perpetual motion machines.

Compare that with the definition of a "con":

"Find someone who wants something for nothing.

Give that person nothing for something."

Discuss?

They did however, persist to occupy deluded minds for countless generations, in man-years, that is.

Would't you consider that to be some (although weird form of) work?

Fascinated as ever, - Y

Are you the immigrant from Norway? Being Mechanical Engineer Ph D? The one who is selling his generator before its production?

it will be interesting to see your production; lok forward for that

HI !

I'am Waiting for your release ! It's been a week WHAT HAPPEND & WHERE IS IT!

can you be more discriptive a lot of us are verry interested.

I will issue my release as soon as i get every thing inplace, I am still having problem with the inverse/ reduction gear sytem. The problem I have is to make the out put of the gear about 10 times greater than the in put, and not having a clumbsy, ugly piece of equipment.

Hi esbony,

"I am still having problem with the inverse/ reduction gear sytem. The problem I have is to make the out put of the gear about 10 times greater than the in put, and not having a clumbsy, ugly piece of equipment."

You will continues to have a problem with the system.

No matter what you do or how you run your system the generator can never generate as much energy as the motor consumes.

The mistake you are making it equating an increase in voltage with an increase in power. It doesn't work that way. AC power is a product of the voltage multiplied by the current and then adjusted by the angle between the two. The formula looks like this

Power = Cos(Ø) Voltage x Current

For the DC generator the power is

Power = Voltage x Current.

If your system were 100% efficient meaning no friction in the gearbox, motor and generator or residual magnet flux in the cores of the motor and generator then the two will be equal. That means if your motor draws 10 amps at 12 V then

DC_Power = 12 V x 10 A

DC_Power = 120 Watts

Therefore

120 W = Cos(Ø) 120 V x A_AC

A_AC = 1 Amp

That means the maximum current you can get from the generator is 1 amp. If you try and draw any more than this one of the following will happen

• DC motor will draw more power to make up the difference and will ultimately burn out.
• The battery will go flat sooner.
• AC output voltage will drop below 120 V AC.
• System will cease up and the whole thing will stop working.

No matter what you do the energy that the generator is generating can positively, absolutely, categorically, never, ever, ever exceed the amount of energy the motor is consuming.

That is a fundamental law of physics and there is absolutely no way to get around it. Physical laws and not the same as social laws, you CAN NOT BREAK THEM at any time.

You system may operate for a short time but the power being consumed will be coming from the battery and the battery will go flat rapidly.

In reality all you have built is a motor generator set that can be purchased over the counter at any reputable electrical equipment supply company.

Oh, I forgot to mention that they are complete procreating male bovine excrement!

It is a real shame that there is no law of Internetdynamics that prevents

a troll from generating so much more output than he puts in.

It's a pity there isn't a rule about people posting anonymously. By the way that four digit number under my name is how much I have posted atCR4 and I know you havn't put in as much as me.

Make this discussion more realistic.

As most of problems introduced in this forum, authors do not describe important details and readers try to guess what is a real question.

Let me guess what you want. If you want to convert electrical energy from el-battery to 120/240 V 60 Hz (US standard) we already have semiconductor type converter with the efficiency better than 90%. In old good times job was done by electric machine: motor DC 12V + generator (output 120 or 240 v, 60 Hz).

..Two-pole AC generator to produce 60 Hz needs to run 3600 rpm .

DC motors can run with this speed, so there is no needs for a gear box. Just couple both shafts (motor's and generator's). If accurate 60 Hz is required install simple controller to the motor field winding with a tacho sensing as an input representing speed of the shafts. Old users of this mechanical converter know that its efficiency is less than the new - electronic one. Warning: the selection of all elements of this sytem requires serious calculations.

To avoid jokes about PERPETUUM MOBILE, state that a primary energy (not a fuel) could be Wind (already mentioned) or Solar (that becomes more popular)

As the original poster stated... there is no input energy present. He is proposing a closed loop system.

Won't work, and no amount of serious discourse will make it work, though it is fun doing so!

I think jokes apart, the kind of wind turbine coupled with shaft/ or generator supplying power to shft would be the direction we can work on. The wind mil can kept at the front behind radiator so that it takes the highest imapct from the wind resistance. The power generated can give some thrust to engine and so less consumption in fuel

Search for Danish, Spanish or California's solutions.

Wind propeler turns an alternator.

In this case there are only two universal laws to worry about. That really simplifies matters, the Laws are:

1. Murphy's first law, hereafter called Murphy 1. You get nothing for nothing.
2. Murphy's second law, herafter called Murphy 2. If if can go wrong it will.

Now be a good laddie and try those two laws on your perpepua thingy and only after they make it work make any more posts, OK.

You forget one of the most important laws of Murphy:

Murphy was an optimist.

That's O'Tool's law, he was Murphy's cousin.

Murphy's law for mechanics;

• Unbreakable parts will
• Self starters wont.

Murphy's law for mathematicians, statisticians and physicists;

• The probability of an event occurring is inversely proportional to its desirability.

Murphy's law for pilots;

You will almost certainly need one of the following

• The fuel you didn't load.
• The sky above you.
• The runway behind you.
• The airspeed you don't have.

Murphy's law for computer programmers and engineers;

When analyzing spurious code and referring to the programmers comments the following comment will inevitably be seen at the most critical juncture

• Can never get here
• Can never execute this halt command
• No idea how we get here
• I do not know what this is for but if you remove it the system crashes

I have been looking at the Steorn web site and it seem to be completely devoid of anything of substance. Has anybody got a link that even show a picture of their supposed energy from nothing system, or is the whole thing complete fantasy?

There seems to be a common thread with all these energy from nothing machines and that is a lack of understanding of the electromagnetic force. Many of the proponents of these machines fail to even realize that they are in fact the same thing and inexorably tide together.

They all seem to want us to trust them yet show little or no detail of their claims. They then tell us, the physics we have all been using all our lives, to build everything from a screw to the space shuttle, is wrong, that none of us know what we have really been doing all these years and everything, we have designed and successfully constructed, doesn't really work the we think it dose.

There is a simple fact that all the proponents of energy from nothing and perpetual motion machines all seem to overlook, and that is

ha, ha,

and you are looking for funding?

Actually, you are all wrong,

1) newton was beaten in December last year when a patent was lodged for the thermal accelerator, and exists and is owned by one of the worlds leading electrical engineering firms in the global supply of industrial heating equipment. Not perpetual motion. but it did destroy all of the heat-load calculation tables that science and the engineering community rely on, more heat out without more energy in by as much as 25 percent. Way outside even theoretical possibilities of perfection in heating in a theoretical lab of pure transfer, it still smashed that to pieces, with a device that created two simultaneous low pressure systems in a loop, something many people have used in the past with a secondary pump to achieve, but this did not need the extra power used to drive the extra pump coz there isn't one.

A copy of the patent can be downloaded from www.surphzup.com The laws of thermodynamics are toast.

2) and most importantly, the same person who invented the machine that is to this day undisputed by engineers who have built and tested the outcome as the same as the patent claim, also seems to have a surprise for the world in June.

Occam's razor, the person most likely to succeed, is the person who already has.

if anyone can beat newton twice, it will be this guy. After all Newton was not only not God, he was a thief of the ideas of others, everyone in the world knows that the theory of an object continuing in motion if uninterrupted by any other force was long before newton, and was almost word for word Galileo. Not to mention many of Newton had hundreds of theories that were debunked as rubbish.

Occam's razor, the person who would succeed, is destined to become the wildest overnight sensation ever.

Not to mention (in compliance to today's standards...) rushing to assemble their ever-going moneymaker

And they currently are... Exactly... Where?

Just to kiss their blessed whatchamacallit

Ok, I quote this from the so called patent application;

• The gravity of the claim is left without question with the knowledge that the owner of the invention is Michael Bell of Electrotherm Pty Ltd Australia, one of the most globally respected persons in the industrial heating industry for his integrity and his pedantic attention to detail. Michael not merely employed the inventor for the original design but built the second third and subsequent models personally, and then tested them all personally. For those who are unfamiliar with Mr Bell, a short surmise would be an Australian manufacturer who sells electrical equipment "to" the Japanese the ultimate stamp of quality assurance. When CEVA / EGL® Logistics also previously known as TNT® wants short term heating equipment they ring around, when they want the best quality equipment to hire out, they buy it from Michael Bell and Electrotherm in Australia and that has been the case for many years, Shütz Containers® in North America Have also relied on his products and integrity for the very best for many years. (it's not simply Mr Bell's perfection in the operation of equipment, he makes you clean the finger prints off equipment about to get covered in crap, you better believe it works)

So I had a look in the Australian Telephone directories and did a search for Electrotherm and the only reference that appears to apply is Electrotherm Pty. Ltd of Fy 4 10 Keppler Cct, Seaford, Victoria, Australia which from this link appears to be a lighting supply specialist.

If the two are referring to the same company then to me the claims in the patent application are somewhat of an overstatement.

However, if the references are for different companies the there is no listing in any of the Australian telephone directories for a company with the name Electrotherm Pty. Ltd. as referred to in the so called patent application. Again this would seem to indicate that the claims are somewhat of an overstatement.

But, I could be wrong.

Ok, I have been reading more of the so called patent application and quote from it again.

• Simplistically the Thermal Accelerator picks up a percent of the flow, the amount dependant upon the Delta T and flow requirements, this is done through upper return section of the Archer's Loop and re-feeds it back into the mainstream inlet end, with heating or cooling efficiency generally reliant an increase or decrease from ambient, the Thermal Accelerator becomes more and more efficient as the percentage of heated or cooled gas or liquid picked up by the Archers Loop is fed back into the ambient entrance, meaning less energy is required to gain a variance from ambient, or more heated or cooled product is generated, or more speed is attained to reach a desired temperature, the desired choice of outcomes is up to the manufacturer to use control thermostats to reach temperatures faster, or run uncontrolled at maximum energy to reach maximum plus the increase over the same period as without the accelerator or to run over a longer time at maximum to reach a higher Delta T .

Admittedly I haven't dome that much hands on engineering of late and my skills and terminology are a tad rusty but what the smeg is an "Archers Loop"?

The only references I can find involve bows, arrows and siege engines.

By the way The eskimo, have you ever heard of a punctuation mark called a full stop or period? They are often used in the written form of English to break statements down into useable blocks. They are also used in the oral form of the language to allow the reader to take a breath prior to expiring from asphyxiation.

Quite heavy that you are investing time in this ridiculous blabla.

What is this patent applied for?

It is in the section "provisional application filed"

This does not mean that it will be granted a patent, it means that it has been processed by the administration.

Everyone can send in a document and ask for a patent, then it comes in this section.

These people should get an award for their imaginative capability to tell a simple story in at least 20 pages and using at least a dozen of terms that mean nothing.

Eskimo, if you happen to know the inventor, warn him that the thermal accelerator is a trade mark of another decent company who is really selling products.

And now I stop as I'm investing to much time in this.