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Dealing With People from India

06/09/2011 10:41 PM

I am in the process of getting some business from a company in India. My contact is a woman. Apart from being sincere, polite and all that, what should I know about dealing with an india company? Any conventions of which I should be aware? Any taboos?

The first time I worked with a French company, I made the unforgivable gaffe of calling one of the engineers by his first name, so if there are any similar things to be aware of, kindly tell me.

For example, in our email exchanges so far, she has called me by my first name, so I addressed her by her first name, cringing as I did so.

Advice, please.

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#1

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/09/2011 11:02 PM

you should eat more curry and watch bollywood movie.

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#85
In reply to #1

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/21/2011 2:25 AM

Lol!!!

You could have added... Google for some knowledge on Snake Charmers and Rope Climbers!!!!

Perceptions....

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#2

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/09/2011 11:42 PM

You should PM kvsridhar. There are others, to be sure, but I can't remember their names at the moment.

I got a bottle of Gran Patron Platinum from my wife, for my birthday and I've been sampling it tonight.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/09/2011 11:50 PM

Get together with kramarat and me, and we could sample it all tonight!

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#4
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/09/2011 11:59 PM

Problem is, he's young and we're not. He'd drink most of it and get crazy.

Too much tequila makes me invisible, and I just go to sleep.

Honestly, I don't think it's worth the price, but I'm not gonna tell her that.

I'm watching "Deadlest Catch, Greenhorns" now. I can't imagine how you, or anyone else, did it.

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#5
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 12:17 AM

It is actually possible to fall asleep standing up, but you jolt awake immediately when your knees buckle. (This was around 1980, when the king crab season was about thirty 19-hour days of heavy physical effort.)

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#41
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 1:52 PM

I am even willing to help and will bring over a bottle of Single Barrel Jack D. It is a sacrafice I am willing to make.

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#6
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 8:32 AM

Happy Birthday Lyn!

Gran Patron Platinum - nice choice.

Cheers

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#8
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 9:10 AM

My wife spares no expense on me. I've driven race cars and flown aerobatic planes thanks to her. Don't know why she does it.

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#9
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 9:12 AM

It sounds like she likes you

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#58
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/15/2011 8:16 PM

It sounds like she wants you dead.

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#16
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 12:13 AM

Happy birthday and Enjoy!

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#23
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 2:41 AM

Thank you, I will.

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#17
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 12:48 AM

Happy birthday !

Is this it ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7SHrUp0jDI

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#22
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 2:40 AM

That's it! I prefer to use a glass, however, instead of drinking directly from the bottle.

Thank you.

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#24
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 3:03 AM

"Happy Birthday to You". Have nice party.

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#26
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 3:45 AM

Thank you. Too old to party.

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#29
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 9:20 AM

Many Happy returns.

With all cars, planes and of course Gran Patron Platinum

Ramani

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#30
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 9:28 AM

Thanks for the thought.

And, thanks for the enlightenment about given names, too.

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#7

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 9:10 AM

One good answer so far, and a bunch of silly off-topic posts. Makes me think the folks so far simply don't know anything about India. I understand that, because i don't know myself.

So here are some specific questions:

How are women treated in India? As equals? Or, is it like in the USA, where we pat them on the head, tell them they are doing a good job, but move over and let the men do the real work? In other words, will some man step into the negotiations with my contact and take over?

Next, when I tell them what it's going to cost--probably 10X what it costs in India--am I in for some tough negotiating? Or, if they came to me seeking specific expertise that they couldn't find in India, will they be willing to pay the bill?

And how do you negotiate with an India company? Is it give-and-take, take-it-or-leave-it, hardball, or what?

I need to know about the social customs and taboos, as noted in the original question, but also how to deal with them from a business point of view.

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#10
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 10:17 PM

"One good answer so far, and a bunch of silly off-topic posts."

Well, frankly, it's a bit of a strange question.

It's not like Indians are in any way different to any other bunch of 'new people' you might meet at a bar, club, convention. So what is on your 'not to blurt out' list for that? Religion?, politics?, sex? How do you approach 'getting to know them? Listen twice - speak once - at the proffered level. E.g. if you don't get "call me Jacques" - don't.

It's not like any one can say if someone else will take over negotiations, any more so in any country, or for that matter, in any corporation (US or not)

Nor can anyone tell you how to negotiate - except entering into negotiations wedded to one these concepts of "give-and-take, take-it-or-leave-it, hardball" is seldom productive.

It all falls into 'listen twice - speak once'.

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#31
In reply to #10

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 2:46 PM

I don't think it's a strange question at all; as is evidenced by the considerable number of Indians that were glad to offer plenty of good advice and insight. For as many similarities that we all have with each other on a global scale, there are just as many differences, both drastic and subtle. It's a wise and considerate person who takes the time and trouble to try to learn about these differences. When I, as an American, was working in England for a British company, and was sent to France for a week to meet with our Japanese partners... my company sent me and my team on a two week course to learn about Japanese business etiquette, prior to our conference with the Japanese. It was time well spent. We were also asking the same questions that the OP asked. Luckily, our questions got answered.

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#33
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/12/2011 12:48 AM

Yes, and you can add to that, that often just being clear on 'nutrality', will free up the characteristic reticence to risk a comment. I don't suppose you noticed your 'view to comment ratio' was several hundred to 9 (non-Indians), before it was made clear it was not likely a bash fest?

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#11
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 11:08 PM

Well, i am Indian, and it would be my pleasure to help you.

Women here are now getting into positions of power, they excel in the IT field especially. Most professional men here treat women with respect. i myself found women engineers more dependable than men in an R&D environment.

i am not sure whether the woman you deal with is a liaison officer, yielding later to others (maybe men) who actually do the job. However, if she is the one going to do the job herself, she would welcome a personal touch. You need to get to know her better...and she would like to know you better, usually.

India is a smorgasbord of several sub-cultures. So, while most people have first, middle and last names, some don't. Like me. Sridhar is my given name, and the place where my ancestors came from is truncated to an initial. As is my father's given name. But this lady would like to be addressed by her given name, i am sure, since she would be proud of her identity.

i do go on, don't i?

Do give me a PM (personal mail) thru the CR4 system if you want any more tips.

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#25
In reply to #7

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 3:38 AM

I am from Mumbai, India. I will just try to brief you about our Indian culture.We have different cultured ladies. Housewives, professional working women,etc. If this lady is in export/import business then she must be educated professional lady who is well aware of western culture. But even then she may not like pat on the head. She will prefer handshake, normally some ladies do not like if they are touched physically by men. No need for your man to step in and negotiate the deal, lady must be competent to finalise the deal.

It is well know fact that American product/services will be expensive. Lady must be aware of this, however our people are tough negotiators. If your expertise (I think you are in IT business) is exclusive and sort of monopoly then you are at higher level while negotiating, but you can not be exuberant. So be reasonable and finalise the deal.

Regarding negotiations you are the final judge, if you need the business then you have to be flexible and come to the meeting point or persuade your customer in convincing that your product/services are superior and value for the money.

About your last para, are you going to have meeting or it will be telephonic/video conference?. Social customs are similar to western culture but should be restricted to business. You can take your customer for lunch if you get time. If you come to India then customer will take you for lunch. Our people respect the guest even if he/she is seller.

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#59
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/16/2011 7:39 AM

Or, is it like in the USA, where we pat them on the head, tell them they are doing a good job, but move over and let the men do the real work?

I'm not sure where you work, but no one at the companies I've worked for treats women that way, whether it is internal to our company or external (customers).

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#86
In reply to #7

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/21/2011 2:44 AM

First hand information coming through....

Maybe I am a bit late on replying to this thread.. but I hope this will help...

Though the ancient perceptions have changed... and thankfully atleast in the metropolises, Women are treated as equal...very much equal...
Lots of Feminists Groups and NGO's to ensure that...

You can definitely call women by thier name... no sweat...

But if you are communicating to a woman that you have not interacted with it is preferable to use 'Ms.' as a prefix...

Women are being given responsibilities.. no doubt in that.. Look at Indra Nooyi...

So... in short.. if a Woman has been handled the responsiblity of a certain profile.. it WOULD be handled by herself...

So hope this answers one part of your question...

Patting?? Not a good idea... Married ones are more so against physical contact other than the shake of a hand...

Negotiating is in our blood...

We haggle for everything that we can get for a cent less... So be prepared for some rock solid haggling...even if you may be the only one giving the expertise...

A give and take policy can cement some good relations.. We are a benevolent lot... lol

Other Taboos???

Let me see your original post...

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#12

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 11:14 PM

Having negotiated business with a few folks from India, now in the States, I'd venture that you will be doing business, not culture, since India is incredibly multicultural to start with, Muslims, Hindus, Jains, and about a hundred other views. But I think it's understood that business is business. Earnest friendliness coupled with a strong dollar-based pitch is the gold standard. I think you'll need to stress quality of service, consistency, communication and demonstrable specialized knowledge of your field and the competition. Same old stuff, really. Ever mistakenly mention gun control to a Southerner?

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#13

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/10/2011 11:46 PM

Sorry, should have answered this original post of yours.

First name - perfectly ok with Indians. It came to us from the USA you know. We address Europeans by the last name prefaced with M, Herr etc, till we get closer and are invited to use first names. Americans are more informal, and we like it that way.

About 10X cost : The lady and her company will be well aware of the cost difference. She is coming to you because of some expertise or product that you have which is not available elsewhere. She will bargain of course, but will be fair, usually.

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#14

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 12:05 AM

Hi,

I am also India, and seen Europe and China. So sure can give you some tips.

First name is Ok in India. But again it depends upon person to person. But, already you have started calling the lady by fisrt name and she also is calling you by first name. So thats not a problem.

But in general, better to start with any person (lady or gentleman) by Mr./Ms. Family name, and then get some feel how the person likes. Then go for fisrt name.

As you are going to some industry, now people are well advanced. Shake hand is no proble, with any lady in cities. But closer than that in not accepted here in India, unless you really come close (and that will not be in public... strictly private). No hug, no kiss.

Normally ladies do not drink here in India. But now a days, ladies from professions have started. But, even if she offers you drinks during dinner, do accept the situation, if she doesn't drink. Smoking by ladies is also very very rare here.

Over powering by men in work, depends upon the lady herself. If she is really capable, she will be taking all decisions. That is respected also in India. Still all depends up on the lady herself and people around. The situation may be as you said for america in your other post .

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#15

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 12:09 AM

As an India who have worked with Germans on a complex project I would offer the following advise to a Westerner.

  • Indian English both spoken and written is readily understood by non Indians.
  • Indian management structure tends to be hierarchical. Very different from those in Western cultures.
  • Tendency to say "yes" and not ask questions for fear of losing face.
  • Lots of discussion and suggestions take place, even after the decision has been made or conclusion already reached.
  • Tendency to make assumptions instead of asking questions directly.
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#18
In reply to #15

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 1:26 AM

Please correct to read "Indian English both spoken and written is NOT readily understood by non Indians."

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#19

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 1:45 AM

As an expat who has the pleasure of working with people from all over India and Pakistan I've stuck to a few rules to make sure I don't make "gaffes"

ALWAYS be polite, even when you feel you can't

Remember that English is your first language, not theirs, if you can't get something done, the chances are YOU are not making yourself understood.

NEVER talk about local politics or religion. If someone tries to get you into a discussion on politics.. tell them how bad it is in your country. And if you are not religious then just DON'T talk about religion

God in His wisdom gave you two ears and one mouth.. use them in that ratio. You also got two eyes.. learn how to use them.

When you get to India.. you will see many sights that may surprise you.. do not comment. What you may consider "different" is because you are measuring it against your standards, and what you are seeing is considered perfectly normal for where you are.

As for etiquette... I think you've had a few good answer there.

Lastly.. treat people (even the bell boys) with respect, you will get it back 10 fold

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#20

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 2:16 AM

Just be yourself.You want to do business, then that is it. Just don't act "nice" to get the business. This country has seen many nationalities ( also ruled by many-even now), so they(wise ones) know who you are. The British ruled this country for over two hundred years, and left one generation of business men/women with stiff upper lip.Then the information technology workers were hired out to USA and they brought back "pizza",basketball, and roller skating. F***,wtf, up yours are common phrases in the IT world (american slang). We stand on the roof and shout we are puritans, then we are fanatics about religion, politics, color of the skin, why even the cars we drive.A Maruti-800 must give space to a Santro and like wise. Do not attempt to drive. We are right hand drive on the left side of the road. ( not all, most drivers trust their wisdom that shortest distance from point A to point B is a straight line irrespective lanes, signals or a lamp post)Two wheelers and three wheelers will get in if the space allows for the front wheel to get in.

A gender test with whom you want to do business is desirable .Because there are many many males who like to be females "virtually"

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#21

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 2:35 AM

Thanks to every one for your helpful answers.

I am happy to learn that women are treated with respect in Inida. Three of my current U.S. clients are women, and some get little respect, especially from men in the sales department.

I will be extra careful to make sure that my proposals are clear, so there is no misunderstanding. English may be the universal language of engineering, but I know there are differences between American English and the English spoken in India.

This reminds me of a client I had from Brazil, who had an office in Austin, Texas. He installed process control and automation systems all over the world, so I asked him how many languages he spoke. "Just Portuguese and English," he said. "We work in English worldwide, and I am understood everywhere--except in Texas."

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#37
In reply to #21

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 3:15 AM

Just for a thought. Find out your contact is the sales person from the organisation or from any of the third party.

As all we have the third party initiative quite common here and that case she or he will be only the contact person.

I get quite annoying calls from reputable international companies with offices existing in India but the persons calling are not their employees and hence the responsibilities (or rather authorities I should say) are limited. And these companies are not only Engineering companies whose website I have visited (and thence got caught) but also the bank of whose credit card I hold. You call them and are redirected to an obvious call center.

Usually I don't call a person by first name without an honorific (our culture doesn't allow it) unless he is (too) well-known to me, personally, and same age or younger (and of course not my boss )

The usage of first name without honorific makes me wonder. Of course times have changed and I am called some times (not many) by the obvious call center persons by first name but then I make a point to reply with honorific added.

As for the place of women in society - it is same everywhere. There are brilliant ones and heading multibillion empire as well as the others under suppression. But if there is a post allocated to her or even him, they are responsible unless they ask for help. In our organisation we have HR professionals, quite a few of them, women and they deal with workmen without help to resolve their problems. The sex does not matter as far as they have been entrusted the portfolio. And in this case too if she is an employee then that is all. And if she is not, then even had she been he, it would have been same.

The english that we use is a bit corrupted form of British English (and to make it a bit more complex it is regionally corrupted) but the meaning is always decipherable and in acse of doubt, ask for clarification.

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#27

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 5:13 AM

Guest is God to us.

Regarding businessmen. concept is clear . He sales cause we need and afford to buy. And he purchase because he can`t produce.

So keep the difference bet`n guest and businessmen.

left the business matters and taste the indian foods , see the culture.

Surely you will visit india again and again , not for business but for yourself

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#28

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 7:59 AM

We mostly use our given name. Formally a honorific (Mr./Mrs./ Dr) is added.

In the old Madras state we always use our given name even formally. My given name is Ramani. I will be addressed as Mr.Ramani formally and Ramani informally. The family name (usually an unpronounceable ancient location of the ancestors) is generally used for religious activities. However, in other parts of India the second name is used formally. Not very strict. Nobody will mind if you use the given name.

As an aside, my full name is Melnattur Aswathnarayanan Venkata Ramani of which Ramani is the given name. Simpler to use Ramani is it not? Curiously the last name is the given name.

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#32

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/11/2011 11:22 PM

Ah, one thing we like ... when we meet someone, we would rather use the "Namaskar" (aka 'Namaste') as a greeting.Non-invasive and traditional.

While we accept that people are different and adjust to their cultures and traditions, we love the foreigners who take the trouble to learn our etiquette.

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#42
In reply to #32

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 2:08 PM

I can see why you like that greeting!

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#34

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/12/2011 8:48 PM

may do you some good to read up on some culture. Remember what may be funny here is an insult to them.

I have work with engineers from India that were working here in the US, so they were already assimilated pretty good, but I have found out that when I asked about their culture, they were very happen to talk about it.

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#35

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 12:50 AM

One more thing, I should tell ypou about Indians. They are surely friendly, unless you treat them badly. In fact they have some sort of attraction about foreigners.

In many of western countries, you need some sort of weapon to protect you. In India, be sure, you need no weapon, even if you go to any remote place.

People will always welcome you, treat you as guests. And Guest is like god for Indians

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 3:06 AM

Thanks for intor to this great subject. I may have to follow up on the tips give above as I plan to spend some time in India soon. I am of indian extraction but have never been to India nor the east. Possibly more important for me to get right the nuances. It might look pretty odd if I do not know even the basics and yet look like the locals. Hence I will brush up on the above before coming over. One question: Which is the sort of indian language that may be understood in most parts. Would this be Hindi? For foreigners, this could be the most encountered indian language - probably through the movies. In this regard, is it a plus for a foreigner to know at least some basic Hindi?

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 3:27 AM

India is really multi-language country. Hindi will be understood in all states from Mid to North India. But that will not be so in south India.

If you are visiting only cities, English is most well known language. The language problem will be only in out of city areas.

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#39

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 4:56 AM

Right.

You have received a large number of good tips from Indians and non-Indians.

i have read, and actually seen, offence taken by many people when a foreigner commits some unpardonable blunder in etiquette. i have been a victim once too, so i know how it feels.

However, most Indians are tolerant, and realise that foreigners may not know what not to do (go into a temple with footwear, eating with left hand, for example)... so we tell them what should not be done. Simple isn't it?

Because we know very well that if we were visiting your country, we may well do unpardonable transgressions too, and would like to be told about them. You can understand how stupid i felt the rule was, when someone laughed at me for using wrong fork at a dinner ! An American friend came to my rescue saying that he enjoyed eating with his hands, and made me so relieved.

Bottom line. We are more tolerant than most people, don't worry. Do not limit yourself to video conferencing, visit us. You will go back with warm memories of this great beautiful country, which we don't fully understand ourselves.

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 8:39 AM

Ah, yes the left hand thing. That causes a reaction in more places than just India

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#43

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 8:22 PM

ahhh...India. Firstly I want to post anonymously in fear of being attacked but I want to give an honest response to my/our dealings with Indian companies...

  • Lots of red tape - very bureaurocratic - lots of employees that need a job so need to prove their existence within the company. Any small omissions or small errors (even spelling mistakes) could cause weeks of delays.
  • As above - therefore slow to close invoices/orders. Can take weeks/months
  • Then there is the Indian Customs...more red tape.
  • If it's manufacturing you require, it is of lesser quality than China.
  • Indians way of thinking is that the world was created by them so they have a superiority complex.

I could go on, but wanted to just post without the emotion, but business. Please...I'm not having a go at Indians (I have lots of Indian friends)...It's just what we found when looking at options from India after researching and doing business.

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#44
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Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 8:51 PM
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#45
In reply to #43

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 9:08 PM

Just a joke on the side:

Inventor walks into the Calcutta office of a patent attorney.

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#46
In reply to #43

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 10:04 PM

"anonymously" is not much help when bullet #5 reveals all.

But maybe you will receive enlightenment by reading and contemplating the comments and contributions above.

It's a pity it wouldn't occur to you to do something like Old Poop has done here.

It's ironic that a person concerned about having a problem, therein exhibits an attitude which in itself means, they are least likely to. (so suffer your experience).

I note you disapprove of OOTB and Ky's comments and will probably mine. I might remind you "OT" is about relevance to topic - it's not a tool for expression of 'displeasure', or 'dislike' of person reacting to something you have evoked. (On Topic)

There is a lesson here, in itself, irrespective of 'cultural diversity'.

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#48
In reply to #46

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 10:19 PM

Thanks, mate. It would be good if all the enlightened people would rate all the silly posts "off topic" so that we would essentially delete them from this symposium and just leave the good posts.

There is a lot of valuable insight being posted among the birthday greetings.

I, for one, have learned much from the good posts.

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#56
In reply to #48

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/14/2011 1:40 AM

"silly posts" "good posts"

Not really. Lyn, (as you now see), first referred you to an excellent and highly regarded source - then 'problem solved', relaxed to enjoy himself. Birthday Fun is quite accepted in a conference environment (Happy 12th Lyn )

And, as you may, or may not be aware; I am highly opposed to OT voting on personal whim, especially anonymously, and particularly adverse to the inciting of others to target posts, or posters, one can just skip.

Yin and Yang in everything.

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#47
In reply to #43

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 10:16 PM

An old fable, appropriate here

http://www.jainworld.com/literature/story25.htm

l

So it is a matter of perception as to which part of the elephant the blind man has touched.

i don't disagree that there are lots of things wrong with India but that is not what the OP wanted in the first place.

A small correction to AP#2. The OP is not buying anything from India, it is the Indian company who is buying something from the OP. Shoe is on the other foot somewhat. It is the Indian who should be questioning the integrity of the Americans here, but no problem, we know enough to trust the OP implicitly.

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#50
In reply to #47

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 10:41 PM

To correct your response, the comments were primarily based on selling to India...and quite reputable companies too (of the likes of the Indian Aerospace, Honeywell India, etc.)

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 10:56 PM

Now that you have become specific, let me tell you the bad experience we had with one British and one American company who sent rejected material to the companies i worked for. i happened to be going there, so carried the bad components and confronted the sellers. The Britisher had the audacity to say that it was rejected as per British standards, but was good enough for the third world. The American sheepishly blamed some administrative snafu and returned the money.

Notwihstanding this episode, i have done lots of business with both. One swallow does not make a summer.

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#54
In reply to #51

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 11:37 PM

Now talking about the systems....

Simple common example of missing baggage, when you arrive at your destination.

I had this experience twice..

Once I reached London by Air France. Bag was missing. I could not get any answer till almost 7 hours. Then afterwards, I was just offered shaving kit (which was of no use to me as I maintain beard, and tooth paste/ brush/comb) The bag was missing for three days and I had to stay with relatives waiting for bag, with no cloths with me... so purchasing daily needs (including cloth) every day. No money was offered to me to maintain myself.

Other experience.. again bag was missing when I arrived Mumbai, again by Air France. Within 1 hour I was offered Rs 5000 for maintaining myself till the bag arrives.

So systems are equally bad irrespective of the country. Yes, government systems are not fast enough in India. I am not sure about other countries.

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#52
In reply to #47

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 11:28 PM

GA Sridhar.

That anonymous #2 one is right in the comments about the systems, and totally wrong about the people.

In fact is last comment about superiority complex is totally wrong. I would rather say, many of Indians have Inferiority complex, when dealing with foreigners, particularly with white skin. It is unfortunate. Over the experience of last 35 years, I can say, we are no way inferior than foreigners leaving aside the government systems.

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#55
In reply to #52

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 11:41 PM

Inferiority complex....the very thing i wanted to say. i saw quite a bit of it from my colleagues when we visited the companies which gave us technology. i soon saw that the Europeans and Americans did not behave in a superior way with us. They respected us for what we brought to the table, and we admired them for the same. i learnt the exemplary German discipline and punctuality, the French and Italian flair for beauty in design, the American entrepreneurial drive and energy. And the brilliant innovations that is the common thread all over. Including us. (i am only talking engineering here) i perhaps did suffer a bit of inferiority in my first trip long ago, but my hosts put me at ease so quickly that i lost it easily.

The present generation seems to have neither complex

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#49
In reply to #43

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 10:35 PM

When seeking true and absolute anonymity (like when you're about to let loose with particularly racially heated opinions) , you should be careful not to use decidedly British (or Commonwealth) colloquialisms. That narrows the field considerably.

Speaking in Esperanto may have been a better cloak to shield you from your fear of being attacked.

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#53
In reply to #49

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/13/2011 11:33 PM

Note: It is not a racial opinion...please. My observation only. Is it racial to say that someones work is pedantic or there are a lot of hoops to hop to get an end result? It's in their culture...just as I am pedantic with other things. Someone making a comment on how I do things is not a racial issue.

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#65
In reply to #43

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/18/2011 9:57 AM
  • Lots of red tape - very bureaurocratic - lots of employees that need a job so need to prove their existence within the company. Any small omissions or small errors (even spelling mistakes) could cause weeks of delays.
  • As above - therefore slow to close invoices/orders. Can take weeks/months
  • Then there is the Indian Customs...more red tape.

Statement accepted with a pinch of salt. The lots of employees that need a job is not correct statement. It is abit more complex than that. In fact it is a bit hard to explain. We too face it day in and day out and that too within organisation. It has got something more than the statement above. It is a complex psychological phenomenon and exist in a not too signifcant percentage. But here the problem is the bureaucratic system (inherited of course ) and a small rusted cog in the chain slows the system down. Hopefully things will improve but when we don't know. Though in my experience when the drive chain without the rusted cog runs, it is really fast (and that runs quite often).

Please Note that this type of behavious exist in all

We have recently purchased a couple of machines costing about $4m or so. There was a clause for inspection by our team at works after the machine is built and then it was to be dismantled for shipping. Our inspection team (3 persons) had to make at least 4-5 visits to embassy to get visa, on various pretexts (invitation date does not match with proposed date was the last but one, obviously the invitation was based on the date of the completion at there works and the starting date for our team had of course overshot by a week from the invitation period BTW the proposed inspection was for 1 week duration). In between we have lost due to various other insignificant reasons (the invitation copy has not reached the Embassy in India from the source country and the copy submitted in the embassy by the same company's Indian representative is not acceptable....) The nett delay was about 4-5 months and the loss was more on our side (delay in equipment supply), and a bit was borne by the source too (delay in payment, linked with delivery obviously. The payment was through Letter of Credit released against shipping documents). The red tape does exist everywhere, it is the extent and potential. And I do agree it is a bit high over here.

If it's manufacturing you require, it is of lesser quality than China.

Unqualified statement. One of the papers actually negates your opinion. Please note that I don't really endorse to the views and data. There are too many factors at play here. I don't know your background on Quality. Doubly so since you are AP here for whatever reason (and so am I too ). But as the practitioner of Quality for now upwards of 25 years, my humble opinion says it is quite difficult to define the Quality though this is against all the principles (I am a senior member of ASQ and if they know they may make me Ex Member ).

We are OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer). Our role as the product Quality ensurer is a very contentious subject.

Our Equipments are Guaranteed for 18 months from delivery or 12 months from commissioning whichever is earlier (almost exact wording), in some cases these may be 24 and 12 too.

In certain cases we do the Erection and commissioning (E&C) of our equipment including the associated activities (like teh civil, foundation et al) and then the second clause may apply. But in the majority of cases the bulk is by the end user and we only supervise the E&C.

In majority of case the time between the supply (based on the L2 network) and the actual commissioning is anywhere from 2-4 years. I don't remember any one earlier than 2 years though I have seen quite a few more than 4.

Does it mean that my guarantee is over even before it is commissioned? Unfortunately no for us, and we have been doine repairs on equipments after 4 years of supply. All due to poor storage/ mal-operation etc. In fact we design our equipments for about 10 years life and they rarely fail (24x7 service). In most of the cases the euipments as early as 1970s are still running without major hiccup.

And that is where we have a major disadvantage. Our quite a few machines are highly fatigue prone. To have the required life we go upwards of 7 as factor of safety - cost goes up. Non competitive.

If we make it for the guaranteed life (and they are infact almost near to that as we are practically facing from one of our large machine procured from the source country it is just upwards of 1 year old and we are still to have a trouble free week). But then we have our finance department who would insist on the Least Cost (and to hell with the value) bidder.

The question is where you stop in compromising reliability with cost does it stop at the guarantee?

But then there are poor manufacturers everywhere and whom you had the good or misfortune to deal with might have made you make your opinion.

Indians way of thinking is that the world was created by them so they have a superiority complex.

Are you serious about this statement? I as Indian never actually though about it and in our culture or religions it is never mentioned, but then you might be a bit more enlightened.

A few year back we had one of the most revered person of India (and Ex President, Reknowned Scientist...) body searched in major airport. You might not be even aware were you? Now just imagine your Ex-Prime Minister/ President (depending on where you belong to) being met the fate in an Indian Airport. How many days the wire will burn on the diplomatic channels?

I feel there is a thing you misunderstood. I am proud to be Indian, for whatever good or bad it stands for. I have the love/pride not to migrate for greenbucks, though I had my chance of joining one of the premier colleges of US and as you know that is the stepping stone to migration and then have visited several of the countries in for my job. And still I believe my decision was and is correct. I believe (without foundation of course) that there are quite a significant population like me. On the opposite side there are who are indifferent or worse towards India. But there is a few of intermediate population. They love a bit but are apologetic for the minus points of India (and they might be sometimes pointed these out quite rudely too (as a few of my ex-collegues who didn't share my passion has mentioned). In that case whenevr something wonderful happens to one of the Indian (in India or Abroad) they may try to gloat over this. This is really not a superiority complex but exactly the opposite.

But this is all philosophic talk.

The Quality is as you define it to be. My children's toys (not recent of course, they are past the age) lasted only a year and then thrown off. But they cost accordingly. If I try to duplicate that cost in India, where our skills do not permit that and we don't have the cost regulation in inputs, we would definitely make a mess of it. But then the Lifetime cost wise we may win (a few toys my daugter played belonged to her mother, made in India (both the toy and the mother ). And they do cost. Where we as user compromise is on our value system definition.

Still philosophy.

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/18/2011 11:42 AM

An awesome response to an awful post which incensed even non-indians. (not the phrases i would use, but i can adapt myself)

Never mind, you have responded in a mature way, exemplifying the fair-mindedness that we all have (at least imho).

Pity you went OT, i still vote GA.

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#83
In reply to #66

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/20/2011 8:25 AM

This is not the first time that I have put myself OT and you have struggled to remove the points .

The original post itself had nothing to do with the topic. And hence my answer to it was neither. I just hope the AP to whom I responded will try to understand the viewpoint.

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#68
In reply to #43

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 2:35 AM

what seems like red tape to you, is the local way of slowing things down to make sure it is done correctly FIRST time.

I've worked with Indians from all over India, and they have the same in the approach to work, why waste time doing it several times.. do it once, do it right!

Something we have forgotten here in the West, and remember this, if you speak english as you mother tongue, and the paperwork in India is in english, the person dealing with your paperwork has that added problem of having to work in a foreign language, so in order to get it right it takes a little longer.

So who's the clever one here... You or the person that speaks and writes in another language?

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#57

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/14/2011 3:36 AM

OMG where discussion is leading to. Poop had asked specific questions, these should be answered as I have done so.If any one finds India difficult to deal with then he should find some other customer. India will find out alternative suppliers. World is too big there is no dearth of suppliers.

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#60

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/16/2011 4:16 PM

I think the most important point is to never be the proverbial "ugly American". He is hated all over the world for good reason. For the record, I have come across "ugly Germans", "ugly French", "ugly Spaniards", "ugly South Americans", etc.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/17/2011 2:24 AM

No Sir, This is not perception of Americans here in India. We are both Democratic nations and have very good relations. May be some people here may have such image. We consider all of them as our friends. I hope our other Indian friends in this forum will agree with me.

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/17/2011 4:07 AM

Certainly ! i for one wholeheartedly agree with you.

i have many American friends from my professional days, and many now thanks to CR4. Warm, friendly people, mostly self-deprecating, a wry sense of humour .... wait a minute....i am describing myself

Seriously, would i be friends with so many Americans if they weren't a little like me ? i also have many friends in Europe, especially Germany, Sweden and France. Good guys.

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#63
In reply to #61

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/17/2011 4:06 PM

I absolutely second your opinion.

Having dealt with cross section of population of various nationality, I have no doubt that American people are about most friendly and courteous lot.

Only minuscule of brain washed Indians and never having had any contact with Americans might think different!

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/17/2011 4:12 PM

Those are very kind words, and should be reciprocated right back to India.

Thanks

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#67
In reply to #60

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 2:15 AM

GA Ron.

The type exists in every cultural, or ethnic, or national, or even suburban snob group.

The problem is when everyone else of some group gets "tarred with the same brush" because of a bad experience with one dickhead.

Quite different to say Czechs and Slovaks, who are all insane but, hey 'stereotyping saves time'..

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#70
In reply to #67

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 9:07 AM

OT, but... how odd. Last night as I was blindly and randomly surfing the web... out of the blue, I googled and read several articles on "Czech vs. Slovak". Hmm. Very bizarre... (I'm 1/4 Czech)

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#74
In reply to #70

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 12:24 PM

Well who's fault is that!

Worse for me I am Polish, Swedish and Norwegian.

So i do like to ski, climb and hike but i seem to fall down alot.......

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#77
In reply to #70

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 8:46 PM

I think ¼ would only count if you are over there. But a nice example of what happens when 'ethnic stereotyping' runs amok - 'nice' not being the best word.

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#69

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 7:44 AM

Friend of mine who is a project manager (insurance, and does it virtual) mentioned that his experience is when a project begins to derail they would keep it to themselves, thinking they can get it on track before anyone finds out, and if they can't it really becomes an issue on the project.

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#73
In reply to #69

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 12:12 PM

i sincerely wish you hadn't mentioned this. i also sincerely hope that my Indian friends will not react with chapter and verse of what happened to them with and in the glorious US of A... UK, France, Germany, Russia, ROW in fact. (Body search of a former President of India, has been mildly mentioned.)

After all, 'CYA' was not coined here in India. We learnt it from foreigners.

However, i dare say that CYA has been a part of human nature from the Cro-magnon man. Not restricted to Indians.

Pity. i did say that one swallow doesn't make a summer....but....sigh.

Just to reiterate, see the OP again. Here, an Indian company is seeking the services of SlowOldPoop, not the other way around. And all he is asking is for help so he won't commit any faux pas.

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#80
In reply to #73

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 9:57 PM

So I repeat what I hear. the issue just was brought up last Tuesday, I thought I share it.

Work can actually suck sometimes, no matter what nationality.

It happens. Like anything, the biggest problem is to communicate, what may seem like a small issue on one end, is a disaster on the other. Virtual Project Management.

What's CYA?

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 10:24 PM

(cover your ass)

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#84
In reply to #73

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/20/2011 8:35 AM

It reminds me of ENRON and a few others

Now I am not OT

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#76
In reply to #69

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 8:36 PM

"themselves" would apply to any number of corporates world wide.

It's interesting that it is more prevalent in a corporate or government 'culture' that manages on the theme of "a mistake will cost you your job" and enjoys a good old "witch hunt" to assign blame.

It's one of those 'self defeating' management policies, that automatically mean management is the last to know if something is headed off the rails and only find out when it's a full on train wreck. GM comes to mind.

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#79
In reply to #76

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 9:52 PM

As an engineer, we would manage our own project. smaller conmpanies with less then 100 employees.

When a project begin to go south (bad), I was guilty of getting it back on track and keeping a lid on it. Keeping upper management out of it (a real momentum stopper) , and making it worse because it did reach a trigger for corrective action.

Its one thing of not letting people know about small details, But its another thing of letting problems hit a trigger for corrective actions and not doing anything about it.

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#71

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 9:23 AM

For some reason, this thread is beginning to remind me of an old comedy sketch I saw on "Saturday Night Live" on TV about 35 years ago. Garret Morris and another black actor were on a mock talk show, expressing their outrage that some white professor had suggested that white people were smarter than black people. They both agreed it was ridiculous... that the research had no merit, and that there was no room for racism in the scientific community. But then in the end, Garret Morris said "On the other hand, it's been absolutely proven that dark skinned black people are much more intelligent than light skinned black people".

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#72
In reply to #71

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 11:21 AM

I don't know about that sketch, but this was funny.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1477/saturday-night-live-word-association

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#75
In reply to #72

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 12:37 PM

haha! Dead Honkey! I remember seeing that one

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#78
In reply to #75

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/19/2011 9:45 PM

TBPC, time before political correctness

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#82
In reply to #72

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/20/2011 7:14 AM

I could not view the show as it say it is restricted to U.S viewers only. I live in India.

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#87

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/21/2011 4:34 AM

It's been more than two weeks since our email exchange--where she asked for more information about my services--and I responded.

What I did was research her company, figured out what they needed from their web site and by Googling the company, and offered a plan to address what I saw was their needs. I provided links to work I've done, which fit her needs perfectly (in my estimation). She answered politely, but that was it. No contact since. No phone calls, no emails.

So now what? Do I pursue aggressively, or continue to wait?

By the bye, I do industrial marketing communications. I help companies get their message out to potential customers by getting materials published in engineering magazines, web sites, and e-zines. My job, essentially, is to make the phones ring in the company's sales department.

After reading all the fine comments here, I have an even better grasp of the situation the company is in--they are an engineering company based in India, so they have to deal with certain preconceived notions held by North America and European customers. Namely, that Indian companies are technically competent but hard to work with. There is a "language barrier" that thwarts written and spoken communications, a tendency for Indian engineers to do exactly what is asked for but no more, and unwillingness to question specs or concepts because it would not be polite.

Do you folks agree with this assessment? Have you encountered these views?

Is this something one does not address with a potential customer from India? Perhaps it would not be polite to bring it up.

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#88
In reply to #87

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/21/2011 6:14 AM

1.Nothing wrong with following up. Please ask. If they are considering your quote at a higher organisational level, they will say so.

2. The main value you will bring to that company is the greater credibility with the American customers to the products of that company. After all, you are more likely to buy an Indian product if an American is vouching for it wouldn't you?

3. Language may not be that serious a problem per se,but it always helps to have an American proofreading the matter aimed towards an American market. You will certainly add value there too.

Good luck, i sure hope you will get the order and help my countrymen.

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#89
In reply to #87

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/21/2011 6:33 AM

Oh, we thought you were in advance stage of negotiations with your Indian customer and planning trip to India. We thought before coming to India you wanted to familiarize your self with local customs related to business deals. But it turned out to be initial enquiry stage only. Anyhow don't loose your Patience and wait for some more time. If it is large engineering company they would definitely respond to you, may be being vacation season here, lady might have gone on leave. You can try to reach her on phone or send regular reminders every week and you will get final reply from her.

Good Luck.

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#90
In reply to #87

Re: Dealing With People from India

06/21/2011 7:38 AM

they are an engineering company based in India, so they have to deal with certain preconceived notions held by North America and European customers. Namely, that Indian companies are technically competent but hard to work with.

It depends upon the company of course. Basically any company that wants to enter a new market may have to break a taboo. In fact if you look closely, most of the large companies will have their own offices worldwide else they would like to have a competent dealer/marketing professional doing their job. After all (I am sorry I am not in the field) but if the notion exist "hard to work with" then of course I would like some one from the country who will help me in breaking the taboo.

There is a "language barrier" that thwarts written and spoken communications,

This I don't feel is the problem any more most of the companies do have professionals good enough in English (of course we do make mistakes in American spelling preferring centre over center. Spoken is another matter, quite a few of us are not comfortable with Americal drawl.

a tendency for Indian engineers to do exactly what is asked for but no more, and unwillingness to question specs or concepts because it would not be polite.

Most of the time it is agreed. In our organisation even, when an order is recieved we do not make changes from the requirements (unless it is our desgin) even for improvement.

Let me give one example (actual) - we had long back a technology tie up with an US company. The tie up expired about 25 years back. After that we had done our own improvements in the machine based on the operational experience (customer feed-backs, reliability study, performance, maintainability etc).

Now we have again for some purpose gone for a tie-up (with the same company). Unfortunately the technology of the parent was almost dormant in the areas we have done our work. Our position is now to follow the tied up technology as far as the scope of those machines are concerned. parallely we offer our machines too with our technology for customers to chose.

May be the reason is that our people do not want to put the extra effort in trying to convince rather supply what you want (makes my life easier. After all it is your specification so I have to just ensure the compliance).

BTW we do question the specs and concepts even during tie up in our design/ technology reviews, but those are in-house and does not percolate to the customer. This is another area where the marketing may be helpful (by taking this burden off my shoulders)

Now about your communication (or lack of it) from the potential customer. I am still not very clear the services/ products you are offerring (but the post makes it look like service).

In the preliminery stage the company personnel would contact various potential suppliers.

Then the pros and cons of each would be weighed.

Finally the one would be selected.

In your case it is the stage 1. So you should make it celar what you are offerring and how it is the best (after all the top management everywhere would listen to the sound of money only) both in short term and long term.

Ask them to contact for clarifications by keeping the communication channels open. repeated mails may be a bit irritating on their parts, may be your mails should force them to ask for clarifications (like the soaps on TV where teh episode ends with a suspense- just a thought) But first it must be ensured how serious the company is to do business.

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