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4 Year Economic Plan

08/07/2011 2:47 PM

With all the media and hype surrounding national economics lately, I have a suggestion.

When a new president or prime minister is elected, a new 4 year budget is created.

All monies, total and complete, for all government expenditures, shall be allocated at that time, and any balancing to be done, is computed at the end of that time.

Basically, the president would get his portion, congress would get their portion, and the goverment runs on that. The debt ceiling is negotiated at that time and only that time. The government would simply not be able to spend or borrow more money than was laid out at the beginning of the 4 year period... not for war, or anything.

This is what you get. period.

New money in the economy would, and is categorically, supposed to come from increased value and production; not from printing more.

what do you think?

(please keep this conversation civil and non-sarcastic, so it can be continued. Please feel free to put forth your ideas. )

Chris

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#1

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 2:59 PM

No way.

It lacks the flexibility to respond to external changes. Income in four years is a guess.

New administrations need the first four to figure it out anyway.

One third of the house is up for election every two years.

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#12
In reply to #1

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 8:13 PM

I meant to also say, business' will layoff workers in the last year because they won't know what the new rules will be under the new government.

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#16
In reply to #12

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 8:41 PM

Yes it will be a guess. but that is the point.

Guessing (fear) will involve a lot more discipline. This is precisely what will motivate better planning.

As it is now, the representation of citizen's true desires is distorted by the influence of big business and the military industrial complex.

When the people who spend the money have little accountability to those who are taxed, then the last 235 years in America will have been rather wasted.

Does anyone recall the the slogan "No taxation without representation?"

Chris

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 8:45 PM

If you thought taxation without representation was bad, just look at it with representation!

--attribution forgotten, alas

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#2

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 3:07 PM

You are assuming that any of them know what they are doing, which they don't.
We are governed by the markets which are allowed to trade too fast and at too wide a rate.The same commodity can change hands hundreds of times in the same day allowing the equivalent of thermal runnaway.
The system needs damping down with some limits on the differential between the interest rates on borrowing and lending.
I heard an advert on the radio today for quick short term loans, at the end it said very quickly 'Equivqalent APR 450%'

When people are allowed to charge that while savers are getting four fifths of sod all its madness.
And don't start me on all this 'market confidence' nonsense... it's like Chicken Little shouting the sky is falling in.
The 'experts' know zip and meanwhile we get shafted by people buying and selling nonexistent comodities, debt and a shed load of other nonsense.
Del

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#3

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 4:23 PM

Not too realistic chris, although I wish it could be done.

How about this? Put an incentive in place for saving money. For every 1 billion saved, the person in congress that came up with idea gets a $30,000 cash bonus upon approval of the plan. Everybody that votes for it and gets it passed gets a $10,000 cash bonus................tax free...........That's per billion. They save a trillion and their take home bonus gets pretty substantial.

Let the piggies build their personal fortunes, while at the same time saving their countries from bankruptcy. I'll bet they could find all kinds of ways to cut costs and save money.

Of course there would have to be provisions in place to prevent their own greed from taking over and doing things like completely eliminating the military.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 4:42 PM

Ran out of edit time.

I think I may have just stumbled across something. If this concept was expanded to include state government, and every department and agency at the state and federal level, it would take a relative small amount of money to get everything cleaned up.

With skin in the game, everyone in government would become a watchdog for wasted money.

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#8
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Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 7:22 PM
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#10
In reply to #8

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 7:38 PM

Anyone that brings roger's head to the king gets a one time payout of 1 million dollars....................tax free.

The downside is, it will still be talking.

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#15
In reply to #10

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 8:35 PM

you are supposed to play nice...

you get 2 minutes in my penalty box for that.

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 10:00 PM

Sorry

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#14
In reply to #8

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 8:34 PM

What is wrong with using simple comparison? If an investment is going to generate a profit, or measurable value, then compare that to the input dollars, and see if it is a positive or not. If it can't generate sufficient value, then it should go on the potential cut list.

I think that scientific and engineering research projects need to show a justifiable raison d'etre. Most Canadians disagree with John Deifenbaker for cancelling the Avro Arrow project, (including me) however, I have to acknowledge that when the Cold War game changed, then the Arrow lost it's justification, and Mr D. had enough balls to make that difficult decision.

Chris

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#5

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 4:48 PM

In the US the only money the president gets is his salary.

Congress appropriates the money.

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#11
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Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 8:11 PM

what about that black budget I've heard rumoured?

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#20
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Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 10:59 PM

Still appropriated by congress.

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#22
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Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 11:11 PM

oh... but they still don't know what it is spent on right?

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/08/2011 6:37 AM

To varying degrees. A percentage of the military budget may and will contain items that are not discussed or only discussed in small circles.

The F-117 was one such program.

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#6

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 5:24 PM

Wont work, teleprompter batteries wont last 4 years.

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#35
In reply to #6

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/16/2011 10:39 AM
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#7

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 6:19 PM

Merit pay--I like it!

Maybe I could get elected, propose $4.5 trillion of annual budget cuts (the whole government basically), somehow get them enacted, and walk away with $135 million. What a deal!

(I'd just have to be careful to exempt this line item from the budget slashing process.)

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#18
In reply to #7

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 9:49 PM

Thats all to funny do you really believe they would give up the end game. The fees they charge for consulting after retiring to the lobbyist and the banks and insurance companies they make allot more then 1.3 mill for that,they guard there leverage and power like fort Knox. Even funnier they give them selves raises while bailing out the banks and telling us to tighten our belts its just funnier every day. Its sad its like we signed a no compete clause with all the other countries when we became the super power. We produce nothing in this country any longer food we always have produced but we manufacture jack sh*t any More ,it isn't because we cant it isn't because wear not smart enough it isn't because our work force sucks. Its our tax code 60, 000 pages of rubbish and favoritism theres no profit in opening a factory in the U.S. Regulations that favor other countries that manufacture our factories assemble things that are manufactured in other countries.

Imagine a tax code thats fair and equal for all largest part of our budget is entitlement's heres an idea wipe out all taxes and start fresh.

a ten % fed tax on every car, motorcycle airplane forklift any thing with motor and an axle, and 10 % fed tax on every piece of property sold in the united states thats called the entitlement's tax. Covers social security Medicare and Medicaid, a sort of lock box that receives deposits on a daily bases do the math that tax can only be used for those programs and cannot be used as collateral for a loan.

A 20% tax on every dollar spent on all other goods collected at the merchant. sent to the county the county is in charge of dispersement as follows county gets 4cents on every dollar sends 8cents on every dollar to the state and of course 8 cents on every dollar to the federal government. remember were already paying for our entitlements.

Education is very important in any country hard to advance with out it yes, I believe a government should play apart in the education of its people, as well as their health. We have failed on both we all no our rank in industrialized countries. I mean were talking about our grand children its time to step up to the plate complacency hasn't worked.

The richest country in the world should at least be able to afford to educate its people. I also believe that public school should go from preschool to grade fourteen yes all the way to associates. this could be easily accomplished with a 2% tax on any stock bonds and securities sold also on commodities. T bills health cars and all related equipment to health care would not be taxed including prescriptions.

A 2% tax on all services from painter to lawyer strictly for science and the arts designating 1% research and development 1% budget for sciences and art and history before we go down in history.

The only way we can control how they spend our money is in how they take our money.... oh ya if we have to go to war then we spread the cost with a added tax of a penny added on to each of these taxes a real way to pay for it.

I would say this is pro growth pro jobs pro we the people and pro government at least one thats partner with its people for the future.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 11:10 PM

I resonate with what you are saying.

The country has the equivalent of a parasite in the bowels financial system.

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#9

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 7:35 PM

I think it would work just as well as it would for any business or family.

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: 4 year economic plan

08/07/2011 8:27 PM

I agree. What appears to me, at a distance, is a lack of financial discipline... and a very skewed sense of how to pay for and earn money, continuously perpetrated by the spin doctors in the media and the financial industries.

I think we are well past 'where does money come from' in this shell game that some of these people play (ie Alan Greenspan, et al) as they want us to believe money is created when it is printed. It isn't. Money is basically stolen, when the central bank issues banknotes. Money is truly created when labour converts substance and energy from nature into human usable form.

Now they would have us actually believe that it is okay to spend more than we create. It is extremely ridiculous... but if they repeat this nonsense enough, and teach in the schools, and hire professors to write textbooks... it will become a truism in the near future.

so not is there little financial discipline, there appears to me to be an active movement to create a supporting ideology of debt-think, to continue ruining the US and Canada economically.

When the US and Canada were strong, it was because we created a massive amount of real value... enough that we could have a massive positive trade export ratio. That earned real money, and made North America 'strong' economically.

imho

Chris

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#24

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/08/2011 8:13 AM

I don't now about other countries, but here in the US congress can legislate 'unfunded mandates' that require the states to provide a benefit or service but without providing the funds to do so; thus, the states must use their own monies to fund the mandate. And since the states themselves are required to have balanced budgets the states are forced to cut other programs or raise taxes. -- I think this would be a tough loophole to close.

Another related problem is 'legislation by regulation' where agencies such as the EPA are granted the power to enact rules that affect the states, requiring them to enforce a regulation without providing the manpower or funds to do so. So for example, NASA might be empowered to require each state to participate in a space-based climate research program; this would permit NASA to use its own funds for other purposes. -- Perhaps this is a bit farfetched, but not outside the realm of possibilities.

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#25

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/08/2011 11:48 AM

AND TALKING ABOUT TAXES, THE PREZ, THE FEDERAL RESERVE AND TAXATION...

I received this article in an email this morning. Quite thought provoking and appropriate for this thread. It has been attributed to the Editoralist Charlie Reese of the Orlando Sentinel.

A very interesting column..

COMPLETELY NEUTRAL
Be sure to read Poem at the end.

Charley Reese's final column for the Orlando Sentinel...
He has been a journalist for 49 years.
He is retiring and this is HIS LAST COLUMN.

Be sure to read the Tax List at the end.

This is about as clear and easy to understand as it can be. The article below is completely neutral, neither anti-republican or democrat. Charlie Reese, a retired reporter for the Orlando Sentinel, has hit the nail directly on the head, defining clearly who it is that in the final analysis must assume responsibility for the judgments made that impact each one of us every day. It's a short but good read. Worth the time. Worth remembering!

545 vs. 300,000,000 People
-By Charlie Reese

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

<article truncated, OP is welcome to edit in a source link>

CR4 Admin: Modified Post

Copyright Violation: Reduced copied text according to copyright law. Please see Section 12 of the CR4 FAQ about posting copyrighted material.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/08/2011 12:47 PM

Read that one myself. Well written.

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#27

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/08/2011 2:03 PM

Okay, let's try posting it again since the moderators found it necessary to murder the original posting, even if I attributed it to the author and the newspaper where it first appeared. IMHO, 300 word limit for OPs is way too short......

Without further interruptions I present Charlie Reese's final editorial regarding taxation and Congress in it's entirety:

http://deadlinelive.info/2011/04/26/charley-reeses-final-column-orlando-sentinel-545-vs-300000000-people/

I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!

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#28
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Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/08/2011 3:37 PM

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/08/2011 5:45 PM

It was a very good read. But it should start off with When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with each another and to assume among the powers of the earth,the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature and of Natures God entitle them a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

It should have ended with But when a long train of abuses and usurpations,pursuing invariably the same. Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism IT IS THEIR RIGHT, IT IS THEIR DUTY to throw off such Government and to provide new Guards for their future security.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/09/2011 9:22 AM

Johnny, I think you're onto something there...

Maybe the article should have had the Declaration of Independence, in it's entirety, imbedded within the body....

Next major election involving Congress and the Presidency, I fully intend to cast my vote to toss the rascals currentlt representing (mis-representing????) out on and for all......it's time for tax reform, PAC reform, entitlements reform, and a general house cleaning in DC, especially the fat cat pond scum lawyers that write the laws by lawyers and for lawyers that leave the rest of us in a lurch over and over again...... It's high time to get back to Constitutional basics in my view. What we have here now is taxation without representation, yet again. Time for another Boston Tea Party? HELL YES, BUT NATION-WIDE THIS TIME! LOL

REPEAT AFTER ME, and SHOUT YOUR FRUSTRATION OUT YOUR WINDOW OR DOOR:

"I'm mad as hell and not going to take it any more! I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore. I'm mad as hell and not......"

Y'all get the picture, right?

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/09/2011 11:54 AM

I think it goes deeper than that.

as there are also the "politician factories" around... (ie: skull and bones style groups) so if you don't go 'root cause' on their ass, the same thing will still happen. You can't just replace the politicians.. you have to remove the schools that make them... and the groups that polish them, such as the Council on Foreign Relations...

Further to that, if you don't fix the Fed/ Central Bank system, it is all pointless anyway.

my 2c.

Chris

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/09/2011 5:11 PM

Chris, I agree with you, in that there is a strong need to finally bury the "Skull & Crossbones Society and others like it. Hell, eliminate the "Good Ole Boy Network" as well.

The Federal Reserve shouldn't have been allowed to become what it is now. It needs a serious overhaul and a lot more oversight. Also, the Gold Standard shouldn't have been eliminated back in the 30's and the government allowed to confiscate gold coins and bullion like it did....

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#33

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/10/2011 2:40 AM

You're right of course, Chris. However, i still think that even in the west, a lot of transparency is required to be able to help it run in a more stable manner. What we have learnt is that, hype does not make a government run. What is needed is solid state governance and an open house. The whole concept of being satisfied when each one gets their cuts is when the whole problem begins. If we were to straighten out the means, the ends would be that much more organised. It is because we are; as a world, concerned more with the ends that we do not worry about the means. Governance is first about governing oneself, then to others.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

08/10/2011 10:01 AM

thank you and welcome to CR4!

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

09/04/2011 11:17 PM

There are several problems with this thread.

First, it's obvious to me that none of you understand what money is (at least in the US) and how it's created.

Second, it's equally obvious that (at least most of) you don't understand the issues related to a fiat currency and the fractional banking process.

I'll try to briefly bring you all up to speed.

All money in the US is loaned into existence. That means that every "dollar" in circulation, whether represented as a piece of paper or an electronic figure in a banking computer, was created through the process of being borrowed. The converse is that while money is created by being loaned into existence, paying off the loan destroys the money. Finally, (and probably most important) the money supply is never increased by the amount necessary to pay the interest, so there is a build-in assumption that growth must continue at an exponential rate in order for the system to work.

I'm quite sure that what I just wrote is probably the equivalent to showing a group of 8th graders the 4 basic kinematic equations... and expecting them to understand. Yet, that's a reasonable approximation of what I just did. Not to insult anyone, but schools don't teach this stuff (unless you're interested in a graduate degree in banking).

Imagine that you have 8 friends over for dinner and after dinner you convince them to play a card game with you. You take 2 ordinary decks of cards (throw out the jokers) and shuffle them together. 104 cards and 8 people (you don't get any, because you're the "bank"). Each player gets 13 cards. These 13 cards represent a "loan" from the bank at 7.7% interest. Each player borrows 13 cards and has to pay back 14. Well, you might already see how this game is going to end, but let's watch and see.

After each player is dealt their cards. Without looking at them, they face the person sitting next to them and play one hand of "war" in which they each turn over the top card in the stack of cards they hold. The highest card wins and the winner takes the loser's card and puts both cards on the bottom of their stack of cards. The winners of each of the 4 pairs play each others, those winners play each other to see who wins the round. At the end of one round, 4 players have 12 cards, 2 players have 13 cards, 1 player has 14 cards and 1 player has 16 cards. Play 3 rounds and announce that it's time to pay the loans. This is the "business cycle" in which people spend and invest... win or lose money. Stretch it out to 5 or 6 rounds if your liquor supply will handle it...

Since 104 cards were loaned (the principal) but a total of 112 cards are required to be payed back (principal plus interest) it is obvious that one or more of the players is going to be bankrupted, because there is no growth in the system to introduce more money. At the end of the first round half of the players were going to go bankrupt... watch what happens after 3 to 5 rounds of play.

Further, while you may have learned that too much money chasing too few goods is the source of inflation, consider inflation in light of the fact that there is never money loaned into the system to pay the interest. This is actually the primary cause of monetary inflation at this point in the US system. As growth falls, inflation MUST increase. Do the economic indicators make any more sense now?

Sometime around the end of next year, the interest payments on the US Government debts will equal about 30% of GDP. This is the historical ratio at which currencies tend to collapse. But, why listen to me? I'm just a guy who's busy building a farm to ensure that at least I'll have something to eat 3 or 4 years from now. This, in a nutshell, is the US monetary system with no growth.

As was so famously stated: "demographics is destiny" and the system that we live within is totally screwed. We cannot achieve exponential growth (which the system requires) because the Roe v Wade decision resulted in some 45 to 50 million future borrowers being terminated prior to birth over the past 38 years. Without constant growth there will be a collapse at some point. When, I don't know. What I do know is that one does not get rich by borrowing money and spending said money on consumption. I also know that the US Government has made a lot of promises (in terms of social welfare programs) that it demonstrably cannot keep.

Since the oil crisis of '73, the deal the US cut with the Saudi's has resulted in the petro-dollar: oil is sold on the international market denominated solely in dollars. This means that if any other country wants to buy petroleum, they first have to buy dollars. The US, of course, can "print" dollars and trade them for oil. It's nice work, if you can get it. This has kept the US monetary system from collapsing to this point, but that advantage is diminishing over time. New markets are springing up in which oil is sold for currencies other than the dollar. The US is now at the limits of force projection and cannot sustain its war efforts for much longer on borrowed money. The FED is now monetizing an enormous amount of the treasury debt.

What does that mean? Simple: the US Treasury holds an auction of bonds in which there are insufficient bidders. What doesn't sell, the FED buys. The FED creates money out of thin air to pay for said bonds, which money the US Government promptly spends. However, the FED, a private banking cartel, wants to be paid the interest on the money "Loaned" into existence to buy said debt. This is a leveraged buy-out of the US.

Please realize that a civil engineer sounds like a kook talking about soil pressure, wind loads, live loads, dead loads and seismic loads, as well as calculating shear forces into the mix when talking to a layman... because they understand neither the units of measurement or the principals involved. This is the same thing, but even more arcane. Hyperinflation is coming, the FED has made that clear. When it comes, what will you do? My answer is simple: be a diversified producer of food and have your energy requirements met by long-term planning. As long as your house is warm and you're producing food, you'll probably be OK.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: 4 Year Economic Plan

09/05/2011 12:20 AM

well.. a good post.. but you are wrong in thinking that I don't understand how money is fabricated. I know it as well as you. but thank you for sharing.

the central banking system has shaped itself to represent a real bank, with reserves, which we all know doesn't exist.. but in order to do so,has had to have a fairly demure image. there are are various mechanisms which have been used to prevent hyper inflation... and one of those is continuous warfare, and the war on terror.. as a form of stimulus.

it is all too tedious and frightening at the same time to fix.. but what I proposed was a method of controlling some of the more obvious spending issues. a feeble attempt.. I grant you that... I too have the same fears as those you mention...

but there is more of us than them. If we all stick together; support and nurture each other, we shall show great solidarity and success. put down the guns, and pick up the hoe, grow food, and help build shelters for our neighbors... and don't let the evil empire run things again. this is all coming to a head.. and the best thing to do is to let the empire of greed collapse, and rebuild it with a healthier financial system, designed around very long term goals.

I don't think the bandaid approach will work.

Chris

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