Previous in Forum: NASA Announces Design For New Deep Space Exploration System   Next in Forum: Was it a Meteorite or NASA´s Satellite Debris?
Close
Close
Close
82 comments
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125

Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 12:07 PM

NASA has determined that we are in the throes of major sunspot activity, which will peak in 2013 http://www.space.com/12586-solar-storms-intensity-2013-peak-nasa.html . Some have suggested that we could be hit as hard (or harder) than we were back in 1859. If this were to occur today, some or all of the US could lose power for weeks, months or years.

What would you do if your area (or the entire US) lost power for 6 months? Are you prepared in any way?

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Power-User
India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Asia/India
Posts: 365
Good Answers: 1
#1

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 12:33 PM

Let me guess. It is not true. NASA spending lot of money in research and rumors like this will take birth inorder to satisfy people.

Reply
5
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1661
#2

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 12:50 PM

Can you say total chaos. Nothing works without electricity. No water, gas, food.

He who has the most guns and ammo wins.

Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Electrical Construction

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mid Western USA - The Corn Belt
Posts: 1439
Good Answers: 58
#7
In reply to #2

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:25 PM

Don't mean to be picky but.....

He who has the most guns and, ammo, and fermented beverage wins.

All joking aside, I agree!

__________________
The first 5 days after a weekend are always the hardest................................
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:28 PM

Ahhh...someone has a still !

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Electrical Construction

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mid Western USA - The Corn Belt
Posts: 1439
Good Answers: 58
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:30 PM

Your welcome anytime but bring your own jug.

__________________
The first 5 days after a weekend are always the hardest................................
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#9
In reply to #7

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:29 PM

if you have enough guns and ammo, you can obtain the adult beverages....

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Electrical Construction

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mid Western USA - The Corn Belt
Posts: 1439
Good Answers: 58
#11
In reply to #9

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:31 PM

Touche - very good point!

__________________
The first 5 days after a weekend are always the hardest................................
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Near the New Madrid Fault. USA
Posts: 269
Good Answers: 1
#47
In reply to #2

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 2:42 PM

LYN, maybe a new congress/Gov. is just what we need...besides ammo and reverse osmosis unit?

__________________
It's not Rocket Science
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1661
#48
In reply to #47

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 3:00 PM

I agree whole heartedly. Our (elected) government is filled with people who are far more concerned with lining their own pockets, than with Joe six pack's well being.

Remember the golden rule? He who has the gold makes the rules.

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#3

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 12:55 PM

6 Months?

If any area is better prepared, Florida is, but our outage maximums are measured in weeks, not months.

There appears to be a whole class of people that seem to relish the thought of apocalypse scenarios, so any possible scenario always seems to excite this crowd and the next thing you know we have prophecies of doom and gloom.

Yawn.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1894
Good Answers: 44
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:04 PM

The northwest coast (northern CA, OR and WA) would be pretty well prepared for around a month (it happens almost every winter) but beyond that would be pretty dicey.

Sounds like a lot of ravioli.

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:22 PM

AH, the issue is lead time to replace switchgear/transformers. Much of which are no longer manufactured in the US. Some large transformers already have 9-18 month lead times and the demand is nowhere NEAR what it would be if virtually every transformer in the grid were to roll over at the same time, not just here, but world wide too. The damage from a CME or a EMP bomb (much the same thing) is different from the kind of damage you see from a hurricane so they really are not comparable. In a hurricane the protective line fuses/breakers typically isolate the hard to replace equipment most of the time. but in a CME/EMP scenario, there is no such thing as a protective device. the transformer doesn't even have to be connected to anything to be damaged. It acts as it's own antenna. The DOD has done quite a bit of modelling to determine the preparedness for an EMP event, virtually all of it is applicable to a CME as well. and from what I've read, it doesn't look so good. This is by the way how the DOD expects the US to be attacked by a rogue nation with nukes and ballistic launchers (NK or Iran anyone?) so they have thought long and hard about this. it would only take one or two <50kt devices going off high in the ionosphere over the CONUS to make us have a REALLY bad day.

Here is a link to a study commissioned for the US Congress that is in the open literature.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#13
In reply to #5

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:42 PM

correction: <1mt

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#14
In reply to #5

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 2:40 PM

Well written response.

My point is that I do believe this is a possibility, but anytime such a possibility is presented, no matter how remote, doomsday profits and the news media run with it for all it's worth.

Maybe we are hardwired for this genetically, but it certainly seems pervasive.

We get it every year here in Florida. At the beginning of the year the National Hurricane Center always predicts abnormally high and intense hurricanes.

The last five years have been zeros down here. Yes, we get hurricanes and yes we have preparations for the worst, but we don't live in a panic every day of the hurricane season or, as one of our new neighbors from New Jersey did, board up every window when the first tropical storm formed.

Also, my point about Florida being more prepared than most states has its roots in hurricane preparedness, but we have developed a whole infrastructure designed to run without electricity. That is, service stations have their own backup generators (although it is unknown how well they would fare with a huge CME), people generally have a stock of food, water, and consumable supplies, our emergency response system is trained for disaster response, our police are trained for it, we have advanced communications, and most people a little more seasoned to the possibilities.

Every time you turn around someone is talking about killer asteroids, global warming, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanos, aliens from space, and the end of the world as we know it in 2012. We are always living in the shadow of doom. Virtually all of the above are possible, but not imminent and probably not highly likely and I just refuse to live stressed out over things like that.

Yes, I prepare in a prudent way and I think we all should, but you have to weigh the possibility with the cost, too.

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 3:07 PM

Hey, I get the whole "hurricane preparedness" thing. I'm on the Texas Gulf Coast myself. but two weeks of water/food/fuel and a generator would be a drop in the bucket in a situation like this, assuming the generator even still worked. nNone of my three cars would probably still work since all three have computer controlled engines. This is one of the nightmare scenarios. Eventually something like this WILL happen, it is merely a question of when. it might be another century or two or it could happen tomorrow (same with the Yellowstone supervolcano, the ELE asteroid, The New Madrid or San Andreas (or both) going off, natural or man-made plagues, nuclear war...). All we can do is make what preparations we can and hope for the best. Well, that and learn Chinese, Farsi, or Korean and maybe brush up on our Koranic studies....

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 4:30 PM

I agree that all are possible.

Let me ask you two questions, okay three questions:

1. How much of your money are you willing to contribute to preparing the US to manage this possible threat?

2. How much money do you think the rest of the citizens of the US would be willing to contribute?

3. What are the statistical risks of this happening? Does anyone know?

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#18
In reply to #16

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 4:45 PM

Good questions! My response -

1) nothing

2) nothing

3) I leave it to others to answer correctly but from my reply to no 1 I think you can guess my position.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1120
Good Answers: 11
#58
In reply to #18

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/26/2011 9:12 AM

there you have it dude, nice answer, hahaha!

m having fun, reading..it's like reading a comic book nowadays.

__________________
" To infinity and beyond" - Buzz Lightyear
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 106
Good Answers: 2
#59
In reply to #58

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/26/2011 11:23 PM

You forgot the most important one.

ZOMBIE INVATION

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#19
In reply to #16

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 5:15 PM

Since this could conceivably be a man-made attack scenario, it certainly is worth making some preparations and plans, mainly a task for the military, but certainly FEMA should be part of it. That said, given how well FEMA does it's job, that is probably a pointless exercise. The DoD tends to be a bit more efficient in that regard (everything is relative however).

It certainly would pay for individuals to make plans for an extended 19th century existence if need be, but everyone is going to have to make the decision as to how much preparation is appropriate individually. we must remember that a good deal of those preparations have "real world" applications as well (hurricane preparedness etc.). and of course those of the Mormon persuasion have a religious obligation to have year's worth of food and water stashed away anyway...

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#21
In reply to #19

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 5:27 PM

It probably is also worth the Fed Gov. asking IEEE and other standards bodies to start thinking about standards for reasonable EMP resistance for critical infrastructure and then requiring emp hardening to meet those standards for all new builds and retrofits of critical infrastructure just for civil defense issues.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2023
Good Answers: 112
#29
In reply to #21

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 11:49 PM

I am constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge of the gov't Tempest program; ie, hardening electric/electronic equipment to emp radiation.

I was doing US Navy design work in the late 70's which required working to the three levels of Tempest protection.

Here is a reasonable Overview of Tempest.

There is also an unclassified brief from the Corp of Engineers related to protecting public or private facilities Here.

Hooker

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1661
#30
In reply to #29

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 11:58 PM

When I worked on orbital stuff, we put at least .125 inch of aluminum around things we wanted to protect from EMP. That took care of Tempest, too.

That was in the 70's.

I have no clue what they do now.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2023
Good Answers: 112
#31
In reply to #30

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 12:13 AM

Lyn, the last time I bothered checking, a couple of years ago, all DOD projects are still categorized and designed to Tempest requirements.

Hooker

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#36
In reply to #31

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 9:32 AM

I'm aware of Tempest, but simply putting an aluminum box around things is not enough, you have to deal with the connections into and out of the box too. clamping a big chunk of ferrite around the lines is fine for most things but I doubt it is enough for this. and of course for some things ferrite distorts the signal too much.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2023
Good Answers: 112
#44
In reply to #36

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 10:55 AM

Trust me when I say that the classified version of Tempest goes far beyond aluminum boxes and ferrite. The wiki description only talks about preventing radiation going out so sensitive info is not exposed, not the emp requirements.

Hooker

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1894
Good Answers: 44
#43
In reply to #31

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 10:51 AM

Not really...since the budget crunch which started in the late 80's we have moved towards Commercial Off-The-Shelf (COTS) technology.

Everything in radio, processing, display, etc. is the same stuff the civilian industry buys. Our only defense is the building itself, and TEMPEST is not a "requirement" except for the highest level spaces. HEMP rooms are virtually a thing of the past.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2023
Good Answers: 112
#45
In reply to #43

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 11:00 AM

I stand Updated!!

Hooker

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#25
In reply to #19

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 8:34 PM

I actually have some intel on the subject and it is a subject that is taken seriously by the US government and I know there are steps taken to address EMP. However, it is not nearly as easy as most people think - it is extremely difficult.

The scenarios that would accomplish a large scale attack would have to be what is called high-altitude EMP or HEMP. This is where a nuclear detonation takes place above 30 km above the Earth. One such test of a nuclear bomb (Starfish Prime) made that clear when Hawaii received EMP damage some 1400 km away in 1962.

It is important to point out that we have very little actual data on the effects of nuclear weapon induced HEMP. That means any attacker is going to be dealing with large degrees of uncertainty as to what will be the actual result. Warheads are very expensive.

The ideal scenario would be a detonation some 30 km up over the Mid West of the US. Only about five countries possess the ability to get a nuclear warhead at that position (US, UK, France, Russia, and China). No terrorist is going to do that, so this would have to be a big player in the game. It is also unlikely that a nation that has put so much significant effort (and cost) develop a nuclear weapon would entrust such a weapon to an outside group like al Qaeda. Particularly if that event was traced back to them!

Doing that would most likely result in a devastating retaliation (remember, nuclear weapons have a clear fingerprint that makes it easy to tell who built it). It is doubtful that any strike would cripple the US and its summarize fleet to the point where a return strike is not possible.

Bear in mind that a crude nuclear device is not going to cut it, too. Mating a warhead to a missile is not a trivial technological task (trust me, I have a close friend that was in the business).

Then there is the delivery system. You can't launch a Scud from a barge at sea. Hell, the propellent is so caustic that it would be a huge challenge to fuel the rocket. Not too likely.

While this type of stuff is great for Hollywood, the realities are nothing like the movies. The idea of a HEMP attack has been around for half a century and there are so many technical challenges that it makes this scenario pretty unlikely.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 3499
Good Answers: 144
#26
In reply to #25

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 9:55 PM

Great! If I understand you correctly, we can reasonably assess that a HEMP attack is unlikely because crazy irrational players don't have the GANJA (Ground Air Nuclear Jamming Arsenal, maaaan).

__________________
incus opella
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#37
In reply to #25

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 10:11 AM

AH, didn't Iran launch a small capsule into orbit a few months back using missile technology obtained from NK? And do they not have nuclear technology from both NK and Pakistan? I'm not so sure your information as to which countries have that capability is valid any longer. there is also another, larger instance of HEMP from the old Soviet Union where a high altitude test fried several buried power lines in Kazakhstan as well as burning a power station. From the Wikipedia article:

"Each test involved pair of R-12 missiles launched from the Kapustin Yar test complex, to high altitude above the Sary Shagan anti-ballistic missile testing range in Kazakhstan. The first missile carried a nuclear warhead. The second one carried sensors to evaluate the effects of the first missile's blast and to act as a target for the anti-ballistic missile being tested.

The Soviet tests were meant to demonstrate their anti-ballistic missile defenses which would supposedly protect their major cities in the event of a nuclear war. The worst effects of a Russian high altitude test occurred on 22 October 1962 (during the Cuban missile crisis), in Operation K when a 300 kiloton missile-warhead detonated west of Dzhezkazgan (also called Zhezqazghan) at an altitude of 290 km (180 miles). The Soviet scientists instrumented a 570 kilometer (353 mile) section of telephone line in the area affected by the detonation in order to measure electromagnetic pulse effects.[2]

The EMP fused all of the 570-kilometer monitored overhead telephone line with measured currents of 1500 to 3400 amperes during the 22 October 1962 test.[3] The monitored telephone line was divided into sub-lines of 40 to 80 kilometers (about 25 to 50 miles) in length, separated by repeaters. Each sub-line was protected by fuses and by gas-filled overvoltage protectors. The EMP from the 22 October (K-3) nuclear test caused all of the fuses to blow and all of the overvoltage protectors to fire in all of the sub-lines of the 570 km telephone line.[2] The EMP from the same test started a fire that burned down the Karaganda power plant, and shut down 1000 km (620 miles) of shallow-buried power cables between Astana (then called Aqmola) and Almaty [3]."

So launching one from a ship off the east coast would pretty much shut down the entire eastern seaboard and launching one off the west coast would do the same on the other side. that would put close to 75% of the US population under it's EMP umbrella, and the grids that were not in the range of the EMP itself, but tied to them would go into a domino cascade failure mode I'd bet. Yes, the SCUD technology is pretty nasty and temperamental. but they CAN be sea launched. the USSR had a naval variant If I recall. they were designed from the beginning to be road mobile so anything you can mount to a truck, you can mount on the deck of a ship. I've had some experience mounting road mobile equipment on the decks of oceangoing vessels. I also understand that Iran may have acquired a small number of SS-18 Satan missiles as well, one variant was to be a FOBS system.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#41
In reply to #37

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 10:31 AM

Iran's Orbital Rocket is the Safir.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#64
In reply to #37

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 10:41 AM

Everyone like to hear the doomsday scenario. It makes great news stories and great coffee break chatter.

As I said, it takes a lot more engineering, time, and money to do what Russia and the US have demonstrated. Just having a nuclear weapon is not enough. You need a good nuclear weapon and the delivery system to put it on target.

Simply having a missile that can take things to orbit is not enough. As I have said before, mating a nuclear weapon to a missile is another layer of complexity above owning crude nuclear weapons and few nations have the expertise to do this (i.e., France, U.K., Russia, and probably China).

Korea may be getting close to an ICBM missile of limited range, but there is no evidence to indicate they could mate a nuclear warhead to it and deliver it reliably.

Even if Iran or Korea had the capability and was somehow able to detonate one at the right altitude and place (both highly unlikely scenarios), the resulting nuclear fingerprint would be enough evidence to reduce Iran (or whichever other nation is responsible) to glass in in a counterstrike.

The US has more than enough resources to counterstrike after a first attack. It has been one of the pillars that has kept the world from going nuclear for over 50 years. No nation, no matter how crazy their government, is willing to undergo extinction by attacking the US (or Russia, France, U.K. Israel, China, etc.) with weapons of mass destruction (or EMP). Essentially, that would be the response.

I would give much more credibility to a solar induced EMP event than a man-made EMP event.

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#65
In reply to #64

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 10:50 AM

You don't think NK is getting help from both Pakistan and China on mating nuclear weapons to missiles? Both of whom are also helping Iran. Could NK or Iran do it on their own? Probably not, but together along with their "silent partners" Pakistan and China they have the technological capability. NK has already tested two devices that appear to be intended to be EMP devices. And Iranian scientists were in attendance during the tests.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1894
Good Answers: 44
#66
In reply to #65

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 11:35 AM

I like anon's take on that...

I think what you state is entirely plausible, but there would never be a worry about NK, China, etc. again after the counterstrike. We would be down, but not out.

America's Department of "Defense" is ready (and waiting) for just such an opportunity.

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#67
In reply to #65

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 12:24 PM

1. You underestimate the difficulty in achieving a successful strike.

2. You are ignoring the cost of a strike - nuclear retaliation.

It is completely possible for you to throw a punch at a world champion boxer, but the resulting wrath would be seriously detrimental to your health.

For that reason people just don't pick on someone that will most likely return a catastrophic strike. For a nation attacking a superpower it will be worse. That regime would be wiped off the map and probably with a no-holds-barred approach. Iraq or Afghanistan would look like a fist fight compared to what we really can do.

So, even having the capability is not going to be enough to make an attack worth the cost.

Since nuclear explosions have a clear fingerprint, passing a nuclear weapon onto a third-party is even more risky. First, the cost of the weapon is very, very expensive. Second, the third-party actor will need extensive training to carry out the attack and is much more likely to fail for any number of reasons. Both scenarios expose the source of the nation that is sponsoring the attack and open that nation to the same retaliation (regardless if it succeeds or not). Third, a nuclear weapon is a giant liability to give to some rag-tag group that you really will not be able to trust completely.

The reason nations seek nuclear weapon capability is not that they would use them, but it elevates that nation into a select club and increases their international diplomatic bargaining with other nations and even a superpower.

Finally, I am not saying that any of these scenarios are impossible, just an extremely low probability. We have more real and pressing problems that we need to address and the relative concern of a nuclear attack from a rouge nation is pretty low on that list. Nevertheless, it makes great fiction books like Clancy's Sum of all Fears.

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#68
In reply to #67

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 12:40 PM

You presume that we are dealing with rational individuals/nation states who would like to survive the attack. I would submit that we are not. Iran is led by people who are perfectly willing to give their lives in order to bring about the emergence of the twelfth Imam. Iran as a country might not survive, but Islam itself would survive and would flourish if the US ceased to exist as a threat, which is the true goal.

NK is led by a person who is mad and does not believe he or his country can ever be harmed and that his sponsor (China) would protect him from anything/everything. He may or may not be correct but that sort of madness coupled with that kind of technology cannot end well.

And whether I am underestimating the difficulty or not, both countries believe they can accomplish the task. (whether they truly can or not is not exactly relevant) and it is fundamental that when assessing a threat, you must base it on capability, not what you think they might do but what they CAN do (or at least what you think they might be able to do.) and they certainly believe that they either can now, or will be able to do so in the near future. So we must assume that they can and will do so.

And fingerprinting the weapon is all fine and dandy except if you no longer have the ability to fight effectively. a nuclear retaliation might well wipe Iran off the map, but I'm sure Syria, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Jordan Kuwait, and all of the other ME counties will swoop in to fill the void in the region, who would swoop in to fill the void left by us on the world stage? China? Russia? certainly not us. MAD only works with rational parties.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#69
In reply to #68

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 1:04 PM

Don't underestimate our ability to retaliate. We have a three-prong defense system that assures that no nation could deliver a devastating strike without our ability to return a final and complete blow.

We have hardened ICBMs, long range bombers, and the last leg of the triad is our nuclear submarine fleet. The subs can easily reduce any nation (or multiple nations) to glass if required.

Leaders of rouge nations may be mad, but they do not have total control of their resources. Ahmadinejad is not omnipotent and is on a short leash. Iran's hopes and dreams depend entirely on their survival to realize.

North Korea may seem insane, but nothing they do is done without careful consideration. They know exactly what they are doing and why. Bringing the wrath of the US will not achieve their goals and their own military will simply not stand for a suicidal play.

The same goes for Pakistan. The military is its own entity and have aspirations of prosperity, not extinction. Pakistan needs the US to keep India from trying to turn them into glass and they need our money. We need Pakistan for their intelligence. It is an interesting arrangement and their is a lot under the waterline that we do not see.

Lastly, much of the "news" you read and hear about concerning foreign affairs and the state of those affairs are very much disconnected from reality. Foreign affairs has two faces. One is the public consumption propaganda and the other is what really happens behind closed doors.

People put way too much credence in what is publicly disseminated. This is not often reality and it important to realize this.

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#70
In reply to #69

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 2:00 PM

AH, don't misunderstand what I meant. Sure, just one of our SSBN's could turn Iran or NK or Pakistan into a smoking hole, and we have several at our command. But nuking someplace and fighting a war is not the same thing. When I say fight effectively, I mean conventional ground forces. You cannot take and hold ground with a nuke. A retaliatory strike is pretty much a one shot deal. But you have to ask yourself what comes next? After the lights go out, how do we make guns and bombs and ammo and tanks and trucks? How would we repel an invading force if our conventional forces are unable to rearm and resupply or even redeploy? And like i said, NK believes (rightly or wrongly) that China will act to prevent any retaliation. And Pakistan has plausible deniability by saying rogue elements within their government stole one, and Iran is counting on the rest of the world to rise up and finish what they may start. so yes, there are a lot of pieces in play.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#72
In reply to #70

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 2:16 PM

I think your assessments are wrong on North Korea and Iran.

You pose the question about what happens afterwords and that is not the point of nuclear deterrence. That point is to prevent the act in the first place and reduce the likelihood to a small probability.

The proof of that doctrine's success is in history.

Even the leaders of people that utilize suicide as a tactic are not that idealistic. After all, look at who they use for those suicide missions, women and children. You don't find the leaders strapping on suicide vests and you won't see them pushing the big red button knowing the result will be suicide for them, their own families, and people.

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#76
In reply to #72

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/06/2011 1:17 PM

AH I disagree, the two situations are not an apples and apples comparison. The USSR were ideologues and power hungry, but they were not insane. They rather liked living and were not willing to risk losing their lives by starting a war they could not possibly win. That is not the case with radical Islam. Islam is not a country, so retaliating against Islam with WMD's is difficult. We could wipe Iran off the map and Islam would remain. so we must understand that the nature of the enemy is very different and that changes the tactics you can employ. As to NK, I do not believe they would directly attack the US although that is possible, and if they did it might be at the behest of China to give China plausible deniability. NK is I believe a pawn in a bigger game but they are too much the megalomaniac to realize it. As much as China will deny it, they actually approve of NK becoming a nuclear power. NK probably believes that China will protect them, but in actuality China will probably leave them twisting in the radioactive wind when the warheads start flying. China stands to become the preeminent economic superpower when we fall (and at this rate nobody will need to fire a shot) As to Pakistan, their role is probably to be a kingmaker in the background, supplying technical information and supplies, and even possibly a finished warhead or warhead/missile design to proxies who are crazy enough to think that dying is worth it to destroy "the Great Satan" as a political entity. After all they were selling weapons plans and centrifuge plans all over the world (to Iran, to Iraq, to Syria, to Libya, to NK, and God only knows who else.... the list is long...), and it wasn't just for the money either.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#80
In reply to #76

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/06/2011 4:20 PM

I still think your assessments are wrong on North Korea and Iran. ;-)

North Korea has grown accustomed to getting its way by acting like the spoiled child. North Korea needs things that their ideology can not provide - foods, medicine, oil, etc.

The tact that they have used for decades is to stomp their feet, create a scene, then bargain for what they need and promise to behave. Of course, they don't, but that has historically been how North Korea gets what it wants. They have been doing this for half a century.

They do not want self destruction, but they may miscalculate. Still, they are not going to suddenly drop bombs on us.

Yes, China uses North Korea to their advantage and that is one reason that China does not just give them everything they need. Instead they will string them along. China also uses Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. for the same purpose - to manipulate US foreign policy. Russia does the same and so do our allies. Welcome to geopolitics.

Iran's ambitions have more to do with power than religion. Yes, religion is the tool by which they wield control, but the goal is to control the Mid-East and you can't do that if you are a smoking crater.

Islam is not an enemy. However, some rouge leaders see perfectly fit to use it as a means to an end. Al Qaeda is just such an organization that perverts Islam for their own goals. However, they are so disjointed and fragmented that they really no longer present a viable threat. I could go on for a long time about why, but just do not have the time.

While I am not an expert in foreign policy, I do have access to intelligence and contacts because it dovetails with my business. Therefore, I do have a basic understanding of what makes who tick and what their regional goals are.

In a nutshell, there is a lot more going on and a lot more subtleties to regional geopolitics than you are attempting to paint. Just because there may be saber rattling does not mean that it constitutes the threat of war. As I said, what you see broadcast on the public forums is exactly for public consumption. Most of the time it does not reflect what is really happening, but is designed to change the will of the people of a nation or nations, which in turn drives changes to the politics.

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 336
Good Answers: 18
#28
In reply to #16

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 11:10 PM

Here is an ever bigger question:

How much of your money will you have access to, when there is no power to any ATM in the vicinity? Don't expect to get it from the bank teller either, because they are just as dependent upon the computer as the ATM is. And, the bank will close their doors when a 'run-on-the-bank' looks imminent.

It really dosen't take much to conjure up a 'dooms-day' senario from a situation like this, no matter how hard you try not to.

__________________
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you!
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#35
In reply to #28

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 8:30 AM

A valid observation, but will it change people's hearts and minds? I think not until after it happens.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#46
In reply to #35

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 11:44 AM

I agree...remember the advance tsunami warning system in place on December 25, 2004? Well today it's a different animal. The "it'll never happen so I'll stick my head under a rock" crowd had to eat some "gloom and doom" crowd crow after that one. This is after data clearly showed tsunamis of that size and larger have occurred many times in the past.

As a species, we have the technology but not the political will to look at our history and prepare for what has already happened, much less what could happen.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1894
Good Answers: 44
#42
In reply to #16

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 10:45 AM

1) I am willing to contribute 20% of my gross pay towards the government's efforts to manage the possible threat.

2) The rest of the citizens in this country should be willing to do the same, but a lot of them are not. I cannot make their choice for them.

3) Not sure of the statistics, but I have heard that there is a 100% chance of of two things: death and taxes. I will die, and I pay 20% of my income in taxes....so I guess that covers it.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 507
Good Answers: 3
#51
In reply to #15

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 4:17 PM

I live there too. When Ike hit we were only out of power for 2 days. We had cook outs and drank a lot of beer (honda generator),watched movies and played cards. Truly was not that bad.

I believe if there is a total loss of our way of life then the population would reduce, which is not a bad thing. But as Hero stated i do not get stressed over the situation.

__________________
I went to Texas A&M, I am proud to be an Aggee. Proud to be an Aggey, Proud to be an Agie.............Proud to have gone to Texas A&M.
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#52
In reply to #51

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 4:22 PM

I was out of power for 11 days... they turned the power on the day after we finally decided to head to my mom's house in livingston. in that time everything in the fridge went bad....

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 1680
Good Answers: 33
#53
In reply to #51

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 5:07 PM

".. total loss of our way of life then the population would reduce..." I am not very sure about that: can you imagine looooong winter nights without TV, Internet, Telephone?People would socialize much more, and procreation will probably be a consequence of that

__________________
the more I move, the deeper I get stuck !
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#54
In reply to #53

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 5:42 PM

but without access to modern medicine, food shortages, water shortages, food and water contamination, etc. millions will die as well.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 1680
Good Answers: 33
#55
In reply to #54

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/21/2011 12:43 AM

yeah, it´s gonna be fun!----

__________________
the more I move, the deeper I get stuck !
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Member United States - Member - Army Vet in the aviation industry

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bridgewater, Va.
Posts: 2023
Good Answers: 112
#56
In reply to #55

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/21/2011 12:46 AM

That's why a LOT of us Vets are buying additional weapons and stocking up on lots of ammo.

No kidding!!

Hooker

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 507
Good Answers: 3
#57
In reply to #53

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/21/2011 9:11 AM

AHHHH, i did not factor that in. However on that basis we would be overrun with the Amish.

Ron

__________________
I went to Texas A&M, I am proud to be an Aggee. Proud to be an Aggey, Proud to be an Agie.............Proud to have gone to Texas A&M.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:22 PM

While this is just a "what if" question, I doubt that the Japanese and the Haitians were gloom and doomers.

Look, I am not hoping anything happens at all. But the data suggests the 1859 event would have fried many of our transformers. Without the power to crank up the factories to produce more, it would take a long time to recover.

I am going with lyn on this one, guns and ammo.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 106
Good Answers: 2
#60
In reply to #6

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/26/2011 11:41 PM

Me, I'm more of a bow and arrow kind of a guy.

You can always reuse the arrow and silence is golden.

Especially when the zombies (cannibals) come out.

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#61
In reply to #6

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/27/2011 1:27 AM

also consider that the 1859 event occurred when the earths magnetic field strength was much higher than it is now. more charged particles would make it deeper into the atmosphere now than they did then.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1558
Good Answers: 125
#62
In reply to #61

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/28/2011 10:52 AM

And then there's this.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1661
#12

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 1:34 PM

I've got 40 acres back in the sticks of Arkansas, but I doubt that I could get to it from Phoenix.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42290
Good Answers: 1661
#17

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 4:45 PM

Where I live now, an Arizona desert city, water will be the most sought after item I can think of.

Guys like me , with a pool, will have to guard it with our guns.

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#20
In reply to #17

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 5:16 PM

might pay to drill yourself a deep well and install a mechanical hand pump too.... a pool will only last so long....

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#22
In reply to #17

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 5:36 PM

Thankfully we have an artesian well on our property (and a pool).

Reply
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 2129
Good Answers: 251
#23

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 5:43 PM

Physically I could survive. 100 acres of land with cattle and food growing, 50,000l (12,000 gallons) of drinking quality water and replenishment catchment available. Tons of firewood and related ovens/stoves to cook in.

Psychologically though I'd be a wreck. CR4 would be gone for all that time and I'd have to find something else to do!

If it's as bad as some suggest, even our computers would fail.

Hey Dell, have you got a hard copy of that hot water system?

There would be many worse off than me, but how to "re-start" the civilisation that we have come to expect is a bigger challenge.

Wasn't there a show (Dark Angel) that dealt with an EMP in the US? Maybe the state department can start modelling from the scenarios there?

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 1680
Good Answers: 33
#24

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 8:23 PM

As this is supposed to happen on D1 (about 1 year after doomsday)... who will give a s+++t care about what´s going on with the sun?

__________________
the more I move, the deeper I get stuck !
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 646
#27

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/19/2011 10:27 PM

From what I've heard, the Texas 'grid' (ERCOT) is independent from the rest of the US and is less likely to be affected by a major solar flare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NERC-map-en.svg

And here's an interesting map from NPR:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997398

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#38
In reply to #27

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 10:15 AM

yes ERCOT is mostly separate, but that does not make it immune from HEMP, merely that failures elsewhere won't bring our grid down, but if ERCOT's own grid were fried that is another story.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1950
Good Answers: 109
#32

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 5:04 AM

There has been a SciAm article some years ago about the 1859 sunflare and its devastating power.

(burning the first telegraph stations and melting the wires.)

There it was estimated that any 500 years there will be an event big enough to kill civilisation worldwide.

The last one was said to have happened near 1500.

I suppose that closely looking at sediments and its particle fingerprints will give some more info.

RHABE

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#49
In reply to #32

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 3:42 PM

I estimate that it will be 2500 years and I can guarantee you that my estimate is as close to theirs - both are wild assed guesses.

Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 30259
Good Answers: 816
#33

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 5:32 AM

WALOOB.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#39
In reply to #33

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 10:17 AM

????

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Don't Know What Made The Old Title Attractive... Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - 60 Year Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Yellowstone Valley, in Big Sky Country
Posts: 6954
Good Answers: 282
#40
In reply to #39

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 10:30 AM

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/431607

I didn't know what it is either. Now I have another aconym!

__________________
When you come to a fork in the road, take it. (Yogiism)
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#34

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 8:01 AM

It certainly would derail the climate change debate.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#50

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

09/20/2011 3:45 PM

This has gotten more than just a bit loony!

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#63

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 9:15 AM

Further reading:

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/10/04/an-emp-attack-on-america/

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1950
Good Answers: 109
#71

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 2:05 PM

Look what has been done to "their" people by Nero, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin...

RHABE

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#73
In reply to #71

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/05/2011 2:19 PM

I am not sure to what post you are responding to, but all of those people sought to eliminate segments of populations because they were not of like mind or could not be manipulated and controlled.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1950
Good Answers: 109
#74
In reply to #73

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/06/2011 11:44 AM

My post was intended to show that from time to time dictators will go not only partially mad (as in all ? dictators) but totally mad and not at all having an interest of survival of their people!

They want to be "the greatest ever" and fail after some time of "success".

These persons are able to trigger any weapon.

So we need a world police that is able to identify these persons.

And after more steps post some "wanted" everywhere.

RHABE

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11112
Good Answers: 918
#75
In reply to #74

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/06/2011 11:54 AM

I get your point, but I am not aware of any of the people you mentioned that actually went totally mad and advocated or attempted genocide of their own people.

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#77
In reply to #75

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/06/2011 1:18 PM

Kim Jong (mentally) Il(l) is a classic example.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1950
Good Answers: 109
#78
In reply to #75

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/06/2011 2:09 PM

Napoleon never cared how many would die in his conquering of Europe.

Stalin did never care about how many Russian people died in his various "reforms" from 1924 to 1942.

Hitler declared openly: if Germans are not strong enough to win the war then they have no right to survive.

All of them partially mad in critical aspects!

RHABE

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3403
Good Answers: 149
#79
In reply to #78

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/06/2011 2:26 PM

Let us not also forget Mao Se Tung and his "Great Leap Forward" that caused the starvation of millions as well.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1950
Good Answers: 109
#81
In reply to #79

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/07/2011 5:51 AM

I agree completely,

Gaddafi and Mugabe to be added to the (still incomplete) list

RHABE

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 859
Good Answers: 33
#82
In reply to #81

Re: Coronal Mass Ejection Turns Out the Lights

10/07/2011 3:13 PM

Pol Pot was no Angel, either....

Reply
Reply to Forum Thread 82 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Hero (13); artsmith (1); C-Mac (1); cuba_pete (4); Doorman (1); hithuanand (1); Hooker (5); Just an Engineer (1); KJK/USA (3); kramarat (1); lyn (5); Noudge79 (1); PWSlack (1); r&ddoc (3); RHABE (5); robin.muir (2); Rockyscience (1); ronclarke (2); Rorschach (22); russ123 (3); SWB123 (1); Usbport (1); WJMFIRE (4)

Previous in Forum: NASA Announces Design For New Deep Space Exploration System   Next in Forum: Was it a Meteorite or NASA´s Satellite Debris?

Advertisement